25th Anniv of Lennon Murder

[Pamela Brown]

Today December 5, 2005 is the twenty-fifth anniversary of the murder of John Lennon.

Actually, Dec 5 is the day that Mozart died. John Lennon died Dec. 8th, and a terrible night that was.

On a trip the next summer to NYC I went to Strawberry Fields in Central Park to pay my respect, then walked over to the Dakota, with its scary gargoyles. I spoke with a garage attendant who had been working that day. He said that earlier in the day Chapman had asked John for an autograph, but he didn't have any paper. John sighned a copy of his latest record and gave it to him. The garage man pointed to John and Yoko's condo, on the left side of the building (near the garage) and walked me through what happened that night when Chapman came back with a gun. Yoko's wagon was parked in the courtyard inside the security gate. He was still shattered that one moment John was his alive and brilliant self, and the next, gone.

[Tim Gratz]

One of the small pleasures of my night job is the ability to select the background music. I usually select "The Sixties" and get to listen to a lot of the early Beatles songs.

My favorite, of course: "Revolution".

So Beatles/Lennon fans: what is your favorite?

[James Richards]

So Beatles/Lennon fans: what is your favorite? (Tim Gratz)

My favorite Lennon song with the Beatles is, 'In My Life'.

As a solo artist, 'Jealous Guy'.

FWIW.

James

[Tim Gratz]

Stephen wrote:

Reporter, "John, how did you find America"

Lennon, "We turned left at Greenland"

And one more from Mr Starr.

Reporter, "Ringo, are you the best drummer in the World?"

Ringo, "I'm not even the best drummer in the Beatles"

The days when rock stars were both talented, and articulate. (and bloody funny.)

Agree with your comment, Stephen. Even comedians were funny in those days!

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Tim, favorite Lennon song with the Beatles, Strawberry Fields. as a solo artist, Working class hero.

[Dawn Meredith]

Tim, favorite Lennon song with the Beatles, Strawberry Fields. as a solo artist, Working class hero.

"Whatever gets you thru The Night" is a big favorite. "And so this is Christmas: War is over If you want it" another. "Across The Universe".

Lennon's most ironic song? "Happiness Is a Warm Gun". How creepy now.

But honestly I love everything this band ever did, and same went for JL.

There's this wonderful sequence of scenes in the film Imagine where some kid is

just hanging around outside John and Yoko's and instead of sending him off, John

chats with the boy; welcomes him.

FWIW I do think his murder was suspicious. The whole YMCA matter was very bizarre, which is why I

posed the question of MDC being a programed assassin. Yesterday I read an article which

stated that when arrested Chapman said something quite telling: "I acted alone".

Dawn

[Guest Stephen Turner]

The problem I have with the conspiracy theory, is that for me the timing just doesn't add up.Lennon was politically active from about 1968-1973, and was undoubably seen by the right as a threat to the state, Lennon was both radical and popular, an explosive combination. Yet no assassination attempts are made on him, you only have to listen to the songs he was writing at that time to see this, Power to the people, Working class hero, gimme some truth, I dont wanna be a soldier mama, etc by the 1980's Lennon was all but spent as a major political force and again the songs reflect a quiter, more introspective turn of mind, Woman, watching the wheels turn, beautiful boy, so who is going to go to the risk of assassinating Lennon at this juncture of his life, to me it doesn't make sence.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

"When they've tourtured and scared you for twenty odd years"

"Then they expect you to pick a career"

"When you cant really function your so full of fear"

"A working class hero is something to be"

[John Dolva]

"When they've tourtured and scared you for twenty odd years"

"Then they expect you to pick a career"

"When you cant really function your so full of fear"

"A working class hero is something to be"

A thought:

From memory: The late 70's was a time when western 'civilisation' was contracting. From memory, Lennon and Yoko (I don't think one can talk about Lennon without talking about Yoko) had issued their second letter.

Part of Lennons quiet period had been occupied with primal therapy, where he made sense of the altered perception and insights he had gotten from his life with acid. He returned to Yoko with a clear direction. He had realised that the truly revolutionary act involved a change of consciousness.

Change of consciousness happens with maximum awareness in an atmosphere of silence, where the noise of the exterior subsides so that the chaos and pain inside can be recognised. This I believe can be seen as a far more revolutionary offering than his previous strident rebellion. He had become far more subtle and I think therefore more dangerous to the status quo. Ultimately a self aware educated populace realising the simple act of unity, 'No' and maintenance of principle is outside the control of the thought police state.

Like others before him, like Ram Das for example, he had realised that the acid induced perception is attainable through self awareness and does not in any way depend on any mind altering drugs. He had gone beyond the world of MK/ULTRA. He was outside of the traditional means of control that the 'establishment' uses to distract and discourage a discontented populace, and he had an answer for others who sought this path.

Edited December 6, 2005 by John Dolva

[Robert Howard]

Lynne Foster wrote:

Intelligent, comprehensive researchers clearly understand Nixon’s foreknowledge about the Kennedy assassination, and Nixon himself routinely betrayed his knowledge about the murder of the century. In an August 22, 1972 press conference, Nixon said: "If ten more wiretaps could have found the conspiracy [to assassinate JFK] -uh, if it was a conspiracy -or the individual, then it would have been worth it. Nixon had trouble separating the pretense from the reality, and in the end, he indicted himself.

Bull manure.

Nixon had foreknowledge because he suspected a conspiracy (as we all do?). That is a complete non sequitur, Lynne. If you have any real information to prove your assertion, post it.

*************************************

Dawn wrote:

Horrible to remember this. And that it's already 25 years ago. But Tim, the date was 12/8, not 12/5.

Worst night of my life, even to date.

Dawn, sorry if I got the date wrong but I posted this thread immediately after hearing the host on GMA annnounce this morning that today was the 25th anniversary of the Lennon murder. GMA then had an interview with the editor of "Rolling Stone" re JL.

I had to write something on this, as I have always been a "Lennon" fan. Reading the members post has made me reflect as well, not just on "what I was doing" when John died but the allegations and strange events associated with his deranged assassin Mark David Chapman.

I hope Mark David Chapman "never gets out" because he certainly is "a killer of the dream" to borrow a phrase and there arent (to my knowledge) any "second shooters" and other "possible participants" that I know of.

Remember Love: I definitely "remember" what I was doing that Monday Night Dec 8 1980, only 10 day's earlier I had went to see the "Beatlemania" Production that had run in New York and was touring the country (It was the closest thing to the 'real thing' as you could get IMO), so John and the other Beatles had even been on my mind that very day, which contributed to the surreal nature of the event.

A friend and I were immersed in a conversation with Monday Night Football playing on TV in the distance. We both 'thought' we heard Howard Cosell say something about John Lennon, then seconds later he announced that John had been shot to death. I was something of a rock n roller at the time, and the local rock stations were asking fans to wear a black armband the next day as "a way to show our solidarity (a word I would be hearing again in the 80's Gdansk, Welesa, Pope JP2) and affection" which I, and all of my friends did without hesitation. I remember taking a few verbal jabs from my boss (I was 23) and then later that night went to a Park where there was a memorial service for John formerly (Winston) n/k/a Ono Lennon. It was most definitely a deeply moving event, and at least in Dallas, Texas there were many young people to whom this event was to them what "JFK in 1963" had been to an older generation(s).

Strange that only a couple of weeks ago, my wife and I went to see Paul McCartney here in Dallas. (As an aside, I think "blaming the Beatles" for America's discovery of cannabis etc., was a real 'cop-out' by the older generation. As if....as Wayne Campbell would say.)

I heard about the 'conspiracy theory account' of John's death later, and was skeptical. I knew that John had been proven right about his allegations that he had been under surveillance, and been tapped by the FBI, but I didn't think in the same terms then as I do now, I will leave it at that.

My final thought about the piece posted about John's death is there is certainly an element of 'manufactured Manchurian Candidate potential as far as MDC, yeah and the three name thing (Q. what the hell is that all about?

A. A sense of 'other-ness,'

Peter Gabriel - "Not one of us, no your not one of us.")

I will throw some gas on the fire by reminding everyone that (41 - GHWB) was apparently more than just casual acquaintances of the Hinckley family, I think there is even a book about the link between the two families written in Posner-speak.

Restoring a working American society where the government at least 'gives lip service' to the concept of the Constitutional concept of governance, begins with an informed American electorate. THAT WILL NOT HAPPEN unless the "Fairness Doctrine" abolished under Reagan is restored, legislation is introduced making it a serious crime for U.S. Intelligence asset's or agents to write or assist in writing "lies and dis-information."

That would be a nice start. "It's up to me and you"

Instant Karma's gonna get you, gonna knock you off your feet, better recognize your brothers, everyone you meet....Cause we all shine on, like the moon and the stars and the Sun." - John Lennon "Instant Karma" Northern Songs Ltd. 1970

Edited December 6, 2005 by Robert Howard

[Len Colby]

I was 15. I heard the news on the TV in my kitchen only a mile and a half from the Dakota. Despite being a ‘Punk’ I was a big Lennon fan and went over to the building on my bike. No offence to present company but a bunch of Hippies sing "Imagine" and "Give Peace a Chance" was not my scene, it seemed too maudlin to me at the time. I cut over to Roosevelt Hospital and a few people were gathered there too, but I didn't find any solace there either and headed home - I had to be at school the next day. I quickly downed 2 beers I’d bought in a ‘deli’ and smoked a joint in the park and went to bed with my mom complaining about how late it was.

About 10 years later I was riding my bike [a different one] in front of the Dakota and was stuck by a car. I wasn't seriously hurt but hit the ground so hard my helmet cracked. An ambulance happened to be near by and took me to Roosevelt Hospital. One of the EMTs asked me the same question one of the cops who were taking him to same hospital asked Lennon "Do you know who you are?”

My favorite Beatles' songs' Helter Skelter" and "I'm Down". My favorite Lennon song is "Cold Turkey"

Len

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Len, be interesting to get your take on the conspiracy angle.

[Len Colby]

Len, be interesting to get your take on the conspiracy angle.

Steve I think you already know my take on that. I'm with you sounds like a bunch of bullocks to me, Lennon wasn't a threat to anyone at the time. I never saw any evidence that Chapman was anything but a lone nut.

As for him saying "I acted alone" and the YMCA bit I don't know what the big deal is, crazy people act in crazy ways and say crazy things nothing suspicious about that. I really doubt the spooks behind such a plot would program the killer to say he'd acted alone what would be the point?

To paraphrase Freud "sometimes a lone nut is just a lone nut".

Len

John - Shouldn't this thread be moved to the conspiracies section? Other than the fact they were both killed by Nixon [LOL] and had the same first name there's no connection between Lennon and JFK.

Edited December 6, 2005 by Len Colby

[Tim Carroll]

Instant Karma's gonna get you, gonna knock you off your feet, better recognize your brothers, everyone you meet....Cause we all shine on, like the moon and the stars and the Sun." - John Lennon "Instant Karma" Northern Songs Ltd. 1970

Lennon: "You know it ain't easy, you know how hard it can be, the way things are going, they're going to crucify me."

Favorite with the Beatles: Tomorrow Never Knows

Favorite Solo: #9 Dream

My favorite Beatles' songs' Helter Skelter" and "I'm Down". My favorite Lennon song is "Cold Turkey"

Helter Skelter and Cold Turkey are hardcore! I saw McCartney a few weeks ago on my birthday, Nov. 16, and he included Helter Skelter in the playlist. It was friggin amazing. I went to the Dakota in the middle of the night back in 1982, on my way from Boston to D.C. Bizarre place at that late hour, with junkies straggling out of Needle Park across the street. Just after getting back in the car a song that was popular then came on the radio and I suddenly realized it was talking about that place: Elton John's Empty Garden, which starts with, "What happened here, as the New York sunset disappeared..." The refrain is great: "Hey Johnnie, can't you come out to play?"

T.C.

[James Richards]

There's this wonderful sequence of scenes in the film Imagine where some kid is just hanging around outside John and Yoko's and instead of sending him off, John chats with the boy; welcomes him. (Dawn Meredith)

Dawn,

I agree, it is a wonderful sequence.

In the same film it shows lots of people showing up at the house during the recording of the 'Imagine' album. If you look closely you will note that one of them is Regis DeBray. I'm sure during quiet moments he and John discussed Che Guevara and the political landscape of the time.

Apart from his talent as a singer/songwriter, Lennon was definitely one of most interesting musicians ever to have strummed a guitar. I look at the crop of so-called talent that fills the Top 40 chart today and all I see (with the odd exception) are vapid musak makers more interested in how they look rather than how they sound. Long live the 60's and 70's.

James