25th Anniv of Lennon Murder

[Lynne Foster]

I object to Lynne's attempt to what was intended to be a "tribute" of sorts to the memory of John Lennon into an anti-Nixon diatribe.

Take it elsewhere, Lynne, Matt, or whoever you may be.

(Did she even post her favorite Lennon song?)

Objection overruled. YOU are the one who asked for real information Tim, and I think that the one who is evidently responsible for the murder of John Lennon, should be exposed.

Didn't you lose your license to practice law?

[Len Colby]

On Lennon, I have no doubt that it was a government hit. It fits right into the pattern of "lone-nut" assassinations from the '60s forward, complete with a magic bullet.

Got any real reason to believe that it was a hit or do you automatically assume that every time that some one famous is shot or dies in a plane crash that a conspiracy is involved? Actually lone nuts date a lot further back than the 1960s. Back in 1835 Richard Lawrence tried to plug up Andrew Jackson with lead but I guess he was a Manchurian candidate too, as were Charlie Guiteau who assassinated Garfield in 1881, Leon Czolgosz who dispatched McKinley in 1901, John Schrank who tried to kill Theodore Roosevelt in 1912, Giuseppe Zangara who almost killed FDR in 1933, Valerie Solanas who shot Andy Warhol in 1968 [3 days before RFK was assassinated], Samuel Byck who wanted to crash a plane into the White House in 1974, Squeaky Fromme and Sara Jane Moore who tried shooting Ford in 2 separate incidents in California in September 1975.

Stephen asks, "who is going to go to the risk of assassinating Lennon at this juncture of his life, to me it doesn't make sence." If there is anything we have learned in the last 42 years, it is that there is no "risk" involved. The sheeple expect a lone nut in these "senseless" killings, and the government ("cui bono?") is happy to provide them.

What would the motive have been? Do you think Carter [or Nixon LOL] or rouge elements of the CIA had any reason for wanting to kill Lennon in 1980 when as Steve pointed out he was avoiding politics and putting out "harmless" pop?

[Ron Ecker]

Got any real reason to believe that it was a hit or do you automatically assume that every time that some one famous is shot or dies in a plane crash that a conspiracy is involved?

I recall reading that a bullet was fired from one side of Lennon and hit him in the other. Anytime a magic bullet is involved (which never surprises me), I suspect a conspiracy, because I don't believe in magic.

I also hate coincidences (the BOP vet, but who's going to think anything of that besides wackos).

What would the motive have been? Do you think Carter [or Nixon LOL] or rouge elements of the CIA had any reason for wanting to kill Lennon in 1980 when as Steve pointed out he was avoiding politics and putting out "harmless" pop?

The right-wingers who had stalked Lennon before Carter's single term were returning to power. They still feared the potential political power of Lennon's voice, should he choose to use it, and in 1980 he had his first album out in 5 years.

These points and others are covered in this article (a handy bookmark - there are other resources but I'm not really interested in re-researching the Lennon hit at this time):

http://www.john-lennon.com/theassassinationofjl.htm

[Len Colby]

I object to Lynne's attempt to what was intended to be a "tribute" of sorts to the memory of John Lennon into an anti-Nixon diatribe.

Take it elsewhere, Lynne, Matt, or whoever you may be.

(Did she even post her favorite Lennon song?)

Er Tim, that would be "HELP" surely.

Steve,

"I'm A Loser" could also work.

James

The Replacements, Black-Eyed Peas, Madness and the Stranglers all put out songs called "Shut Up". "I don't Care", "Glad to See You Go", "Here Today, Gone Tomorrow", "Pinhead" are just a few approppriate Ramones titles, Run DMC's "You Talk Too Much" is an early Rap classic, "I'm Sick of You" is my favorite unrleased Stooges song and the Stones "Get off of my Cloud" would also fit as would "We Know You Suck by JFA [Jodie Foster's Army].

The only Beatles tune I can think of other than what has already been mentioned is "Don't Bother Me"

[Dawn Meredith]

Ron: Thanx for the Lennon- link. I frankly agree that it is quite possible that MDC was a MC. I thought this way before the book, just based on what I knew .... The timeing: RayGun takes power, Lennon comes out of retirement. So long as he was a house -husband, raising Sean he was safe, but if he was murdered by those right wing forces it's because they knew he'd be soon speaking out against their ways. Keep in mind these are also the folks who engineered the "October Surprise" to prevent Carter from obtaining the release of the hostages, instead making sure they were released on the very day RayGun was friggen inaugrationed.

Talk about IN YOUR FACE, blatent???

But this thread is to honor John's memory. His life and what he stood for; which was so huge.

Dawn

[Nathaniel Heidenheimer]

I haven't made up my mind yet on whether or not the murder was a conspiracy. But I think its worth briefly outlinging the argument. This may be old hat to some.

First there is the issue of motive. Lennon had what might be called "the page one effect". He was not just another dissident, but one who could get on page one of major papers, tv etc. and potentially widen the gateway through which millions of others might pass into opposition. Think for a moment about the Nicaragua policy which essentially involved a CIA created army (hence "civil war", as it was described in the U.S. press, was a propaganda win for the Reaganistas) that targetted civilians, because it was never large engough to directly confront the Nicaraguan Army. There's a word for this, and it starts with T.

Today we associate the 1980s with widespread political apathy. Yet, in my opinion it was a managed appathy: the corporate media sculpted the political spectrum and messages that poeple heard much more than in the 1970's. Yet in 1980, this was not yet a fait accompli. (Although it is true that the corporate right had been preparing its "counterforce in Wasington since 1977)

John Lennon could speak to a broad range of people coast to coast, accross class lines. The FBI's COINTELPRO program showes that the state might be tollerent of some dissent, so long as it is scattered and cannot provide an opposition with a national spokesperson, or rhetorical common ground. A 1964 COINTELPRO memo, belived to have been written by Hoover implies that it is when the opposition hears the same words coast to coast that it becomes truely threatening to the state.

I think it is possible that the rightward rushing new regime percieved Lennon as a precisely this kind of a communications nightmare.

Although Lennon's assasin was portrayed as a loner, he actually was't if we are to believe John Judge. Chapman worked as a camp counselor in a camp for poltical refugees run by the CIA front WORLD VISION.

If we are to believe Judge and other writers, Chapman was at the same Arkansas World Vision refugee camp that also employed former members of the CIA'S MK-ULTRA program. Judge quotes a british expert on MK-ULTRA to the effect that Chapman's standing over the body reading from The Catcher in The Rye, sounded to him like a classic trigger mechanism used in assasination training.

Also. the lead NYPD detective that interviewed Chapman apparently swore that Chapman bore signs of some type of hynosis, and the detective was convinced that the killing involved a conspiracy.

I realize that I should have names and more precise references here, but these are easily available by googeling MK-ULTRA Lennon and MK-ULTRA World Vision (an organization that was apparently run by John Hinckley Sr.) Sorry that I am not a terribly adept internet organism.

As I said, I am not taking all this as the rosseta stone, but rather am trying to sum up the argument in order to open it up for discussion. Probably others know more.

I think the CIA percieves threats from a communications angle. They think about the potential audience for oppositon figures, not simply thier agendas.

[Lynne Foster]

What you call the "page 1 effect" is the only thing that motivated un unrepentant felon like Richard Nixon.

[Gerry Hemming]

My favorite is "She's Got a Ticket to Ride." To me it's a message of hope.

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Updated: 03:49 PM EST

John Lennon's Music Still Shines On

By Dean Goodman, Reuters

LOS ANGELES (Dec. 7) - Time has been kind to John Lennon, the former Beatle who was killed 25 years ago on Thursday just as he was starting over.

Despite some erratic solo work and questionable political alliances, the "smart one" in the Fab Four has been canonized by music fans as a thoughtful songwriter, courageous activist, and devoted father -- to one of his sons, at least.

His songwriting partner Paul McCartney lived long enough to receive a knighthood, but sainthood has been more elusive. The "cute one" is viewed by some as the lightweight half of the pair, and has achieved the near-impossible feat of making his nemesis, Lennon's widow Yoko Ono, look slightly sympathetic.

Credit the imbalance to a handful of tunes that will never go out of style as long as there is war and injustice, anthems like "All You Need is Love" and "Give Peace a Chance" and "Imagine."

McCartney may have sold more records, been just as politically active and written "Yesterday." "Helter Skelter" and "Let It Be," but Lennon is the Working Class Hero.

For Rolling Stone magazine editor and publisher Jann Wenner, who put Lennon on the cover of his first issue in 1967, the Paul vs. John debate is no contest.

"What are you going to remember?" he asked, citing some of their respective songs. "'Silly Love Songs' or 'Give Peace a Chance'? 'Band on the Run' or 'Imagine'? 'Helen Wheels' or 'Whatever Gets You Thru the Night?"'

"EXTRAORDINARY SINGER"

Others take a more diplomatic stance, perhaps mindful that his song "Forgive Me (My Little Flower Princess)" or the album "Two Virgins" are not exactly classics.

"If John were alive, he might be saying, 'Hogwash, it's all just a bunch of good songs,"' said Aerosmith vocalist Steven Tyler, whose band covered "Come Together" in 1978.

A good voice also helps, and Lennon's was arguably the greatest in rock 'n' roll, said Interscope Records president Jimmy Iovine, who helped record the Lennon albums "Walls and Bridges" and "Rock 'n' Roll."

"It never gets talked about. That guy sang his ass off," Iovine said. "He was an extraordinary singer, very, very spontaneous, never needed a lot of takes, but always with such feel. This is as if he was completely straight, or, not!"

Lennon was not afraid to share his inner turmoil, singing about such painful chapters as the death of his mother, the demise of the Beatles or his turbulent relationship with Ono.

Influenced by Bob Dylan, Lennon also thought he could use his talent to try to change the world. After the Beatles broke up in 1970, Lennon and Ono famously took to bed to promote peace. The Nixon administration spied on him and tried to get him deported.

His pacifist songs gave way to more strident tunes like "Power to the People." But not everybody was buying it. His 1972 album, "Sometime in New York City," featuring the ironic single "Woman is the n of the World," was a flop.

If he were alive today, "I bet he'd like hip-hop," Iovine added with a laugh, "because of the potency of the lyrics. What was ever going on in his head, in his gut, in his life, in somebody else's life, he sang it."

"RODE LIFE LIKE A SURFBOARD"

Iovine said few modern-day rock stars have followed Lennon's lead, citing U2's Bono, Trent Reznor of techno band Nine Inch Nails and Jack White of the blues-rock duo White Stripes as the rare singers who conjure up a primal honesty in their songs.

"(Rapper) Eminem is, attitude-wise, closer to John Lennon than most rock singers are today," he said. (Interscope represents U2, Nine Inch Nails and Eminem.)

Lennon's final album, "Double Fantasy," issued just before he was shot dead outside his Manhattan home at the age of 40, found him in a more reflective mode, happily facing middle age ("Watching the Wheels"), and singing about his love for Ono ("Woman") and their son Sean ("Beautiful Boy").

"He rode life like a surfboard," said Tyler, "and then when he got to the shore, instead of paddling straight back out again to catch the next wave like I did, he sat there for a while and wrote it down, and then went on to something else. And I love that about him."

12/07/05 15:14 ET

Copyright 2005 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved. Republication or redistribution of Reuters content, including by framing or similar means, is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Reuters. Reuters shall not be liable for any errors or delays in content, or for any actions taken in reliance thereon. All active hyperlinks have been inserted by AOL.

_____________________________________________

[Dawn Meredith]

My favorite is "She's Got a Ticket to Ride." To me it's a message of hope.

-----------------------------

Nice article Gerry, thanx for posting it. Today it really is the 25th anniversry of the death of Lennon.

Words seem rather trite.

Remember John's wonderful little book from 1964 "In His Own Write" ? My personal fav there is "A Surprise for Little Bobby". Still cracks me up. What a mind. What a loss.

Dawn

[Len Colby]

Gerry - Great article thanks for posting that. I gotta be honest, when I saw in my mailbox that you had responded to this thread I expected a ranting diatribe.

My only complaint about the article is Jimmy Iovine shamelessly taking advantage of the anniversary of Lennon's tragic death to plug his record labels. The writer missed it but the White Stripes latest record is put out by Iovine too. Are we to expect it's just a coincidence that 4 out of the 4 singers he compares to Lennon are in his roster? Worst of all was comparing Eminem to Lennon. Eminem is crap, he put out some OK records recently but that all seems to be Dr. Dre's doing.

Len

[Robert Howard]

Gerry - Great article thanks for posting that. I gotta be honest, when I saw in my mailbox that you had responded to this thread I expected a ranting diatribe.

My only complaint about the article is Jimmy Iovine shamelessly taking advantage of the anniversary of Lennon's tragic death to plug his record labels. The writer missed it but the White Stripes latest record is put out by Iovine too. Are we to expect it's just a coincidence that 4 out of the 4 singers he compares to Lennon are in his roster? Worst of all was comparing Eminem to Lennon. Eminem is crap, he put out some OK records recently but that all seems to be Dr. Dre's doing.

Len

Today is the 25th anniversary of John Lennon's death, as previously mentioned. I have already posted on this topic so I don't want to be redundant; but, I have a niche for researching and accumulating every bit of information I can about topics 'close to my heart.'

The JFK Assassination, the Beatles (together and solo) and the geopolitical world of the last 100 years are at the top of the list.

If one would like to peruse some of the most informative Lennon material ever to hit the print media, I would suggest (not necessarily in this order)

The book "Lennon Remembers" Jann Wenner 1970 interview.

The 1980 Playboy interview with John and Yoko (either Nov. or Dec. issue)

Musically speaking "The Compleat Beatles - Updated Version) This book is a compendum of every song that the Beatles ever played listing the instruments and musicians used on each song, plus an assortment of equally compelling stuff.

Lennon book's (Hard to Find)

"In His Own Write" and "A Spaniard in the Works"

AND the non-Beatles Movie he appeared in Directed by Dick Lester "How I Won the War." I believe that this movie, is a incredible flick to watch, it is a combination comedy/drama circa WW2. Lennon made this movie around 1967 before the recording sesions for Strawberry Fields Forever/Penny Lane and also around the time that their manager Brain Epstein died." John's character name is "Musketeer Gripweed."

imdb.com link for same

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0061789/

There is a surreal scene at the end that makes IMO watching the whole movie worthwhile

Final thought: Out of all the quotes John left us with, I think the best ones are lyrics from his first solo album entitled 'Plastic Ono Band' - 1970

Which is his "Highway 61 Revisited?"

It is also very stark and intense.

"Genius is Pain" - Some people criticize John for his knack or disposition towards making off-the cuff remarks, see 'The Beatles are more popular than Jesus,.' 'The freaks on the phone, won't leave me alone so don't give me that brother, brother' brother (although the latter is actually a line from "I Found Out" Which also includes "I seen through junkies, I been through it all

I seen religion from Jesus to Popel

Don't let them fool you with dope and cocaine

No one can harm you, feel your own pain"

My reaction is that there is something about death that is almost a canonization process in American (and elsewhere?) culture. Look at Marilyn, JFK, MLK Jr., RFK, Malcolm-X from the 1960's alone.

Sociologists and media types might (rightfully?) ask would the legacy of these individuals be as valued if they hadn't died in the manner/way they did?

JFK and MLK, Jr. are still controversial topics to make such comments even 43 and 37 years later. But that's just my opinion.

Absolutely Final Comment - I would rather have been remembered for advocating love and peace, than dropping an atomic bomb or inventing it. Robert

Edited December 8, 2005 by Robert Howard

[Mark Knight]

John Lennon, in my estimation, was an incredibly talented singer, songwriter and musician...and one who just happened to be in the right place at the right time with the right bandmates to gain fame and fortune. Nothing mystical there...just another man who used his talents, and was rewarded by the public.

While SOME of the "Beatlemania" generation might have followed him anywhere, many of us had moved on in our lives. What that means is, that in 1980, it was entirely possible that his 1980 "Double Fantasy" album just might have crashed and burned like his '72 effort...so there was no guarantee of a "Pied Piper" effect, and therefore Nixon et al had little reason--aside from Nixon's terminal paranoia--to "snuff" Lennon.

While I think it's worthwhile to recognize Lennon's life and death, I see no more need to idolize him in 2005 than I did in 1980...or 1976, or at any other time in his career.

You wanna idolize someone based on record sales? Try Garth Brooks. You wanna idolize someone based upon song lyrics? Try the artist formerly known as Cat Stevens, for "Peace Train." Personally, while I concede that Lennon and the others deserve recognition, they are, after all, only mortals doing what they do. And I don't think there's a pedestal reserved for any of them...at least not in MY home. But following the hype of society, it would be terribly easy to make John Lennon more in death than he actually was in life.

[Robert Howard]

John Lennon, in my estimation, was an incredibly talented singer, songwriter and musician...and one who just happened to be in the right place at the right time with the right bandmates to gain fame and fortune. Nothing mystical there...just another man who used his talents, and was rewarded by the public.

While SOME of the "Beatlemania" generation might have followed him anywhere, many of us had moved on in our lives. What that means is, that in 1980, it was entirely possible that his 1980 "Double Fantasy" album just might have crashed and burned like his '72 effort...so there was no guarantee of a "Pied Piper" effect, and therefore Nixon et al had little reason--aside from Nixon's terminal paranoia--to "snuff" Lennon.

While I think it's worthwhile to recognize Lennon's life and death, I see no more need to idolize him in 2005 than I did in 1980...or 1976, or at any other time in his career.

You wanna idolize someone based on record sales? Try Garth Brooks. You wanna idolize someone based upon song lyrics? Try the artist formerly known as Cat Stevens, for "Peace Train." Personally, while I concede that Lennon and the others deserve recognition, they are, after all, only mortals doing what they do. And I don't think there's a pedestal reserved for any of them...at least not in MY home. But following the hype of society, it would be terribly easy to make John Lennon more in death than he actually was in life.

Speaking of Cat Steven's n/k/a Yousef Islam. Peace Train is a great song, and while I admit I did not follow the story closely, I did find the fact that he was 'denied access to the United States awhile back' a little disconcerting to say the least. The man as far as I know, is not affiliated with "Al-Qaeda" (if anyone has CREDIBLE information to the contrary, please let me know) and not allowed to come to the "land of the brave, and home of the free."

What is one to make of this 'move' by the Bush administration?

A sincere desire to protect our country from 'terrorists?' or something entirely different.

As an aside; last night while posting on the forum (with the T.V. on, which I was not watching, but could hear) there was a commerical for some new medication.

I didn't catch the name of it, but at the end of the spot, you know the 'disclaimer part,' I heard the words,

"may be harmful to unborn children."

Is it just me or are we entering a 'brave new world' where any medication that has a remotely useful purpose can be approved by the F.D.A. as long as the disclaimer 'doesent say.'

'Side effects may include instantaneous death?'

Just wondering.

Edited December 8, 2005 by Robert Howard

[Lynne Foster]

What that means is, that in 1980, it was entirely possible that his 1980 "Double Fantasy" album just might have crashed and burned like his '72 effort...so there was no guarantee of a "Pied Piper" effect, and therefore Nixon et al had little reason--aside from Nixon's terminal paranoia--to "snuff" Lennon.

Nixon's paranoia existed whether Lennon sold 1 album or 1 billion albums.

[Len Colby]

Cat Stevens created controversy in 1987 when he backed the fatwa condeming Salman Rushdie to death for publishing The Satanic Verses, although he later said he was misunderstood. The Feds alleged he had given money to Hamas but offered no proof. Despite that I believe barring his entry was an overreaction.

You can read about the Rushdie affair here [it's free but you need to register] http://www.nytimes.com/books/99/04/18/spec...ushdie-cat.html

And Stevens comments here

http://catstevens.com/articles/00236/index.html