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Mitch Werbell in 63


Pat Speer

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Thanks, James. From what I've seen, Werbell didn't form Sionics until 67. On what source do you have it that Werbell was already messing with AR-15s in the early sixties? (Pat Speer)

Pat,

I have a color slide of Werbell posing with a suppressed AR-15. It is dated 1963.

I also found this passage from the link I provided interesting.

"The Army's Human Engineering Laboratory (HEL) at Aberdeen proving ground developed a number of suppressors for the M-16 rifle from the early 60's onward."

James

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Thanks, James. From what I've seen, Werbell didn't form Sionics until 67. On what source do you have it that Werbell was already messing with AR-15s in the early sixties? (Pat Speer)

Pat,

I have a color slide of Werbell posing with a suppressed AR-15. It is dated 1963.

I also found this passage from the link I provided interesting.

"The Army's Human Engineering Laboratory (HEL) at Aberdeen proving ground developed a number of suppressors for the M-16 rifle from the early 60's onward."

James

Would love to see that slide. Do you remember if there was anyone with him in that slide? Any of the usual suspects?

I'd come across that reference to HEL before. It was one of the things that sent me down Paranoid Road (see my Sturdivan thread.) The thought that the WC's and HSCA"s ballistics experts, Olivier and Sturdivan, had helped design the silencer used on Kennedy was most disturbing. While I now am skeptical, it bothered me for some time. Evidently Aberdeen Proving Ground is huge, with many different departments. If anyone is aware of any interaction between Edgewood Arsenal and the Human Engineering Lab, of course, please let me know.

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Would love to see that slide. Do you remember if there was anyone with him in that slide? Any of the usual suspects? (Pat Speer)

Pat,

The image shows him standing alone with the weapon. He is wearing his camouflage outfit and the background doesn't give any real clues as to where the shot was snapped.

I have to convert several slides in the future, this will be one of them.

James

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  • 1 year later...

Would love to see that slide. Do you remember if there was anyone with him in that slide? Any of the usual suspects? (Pat Speer)

This is not the photograph I was referring to but it may be of some interest (WerBell on the left). I am hoping to lock down an exact date. I am also hoping that Ryan Crowe can offer some comments.

James

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Guest John Woods

Pat wrote:

It's significant as well that when Cubela asked for a silencer for his rifle, the CIA had Manuel Artime MAKE him one.

Pat, I am very curious re your source for this statement.

Many thanks.

Well, the Church Report discusses Cubela's demanding a silencer and the CIA's decision to provide him one through B-1. The I.G. Report confirms that B-1 is Artime and that his secretary transferred a Belgian FAL rifle with silencer to Cubela on February 10 or 11, 1965. I'm still having trouble remembering where I read that the silencer was actually made by Artime's men and that Cubela found it unsatisfactory.

Pat,

In case you haven't seen this;

http://www.smallarmsreview.com/pdf/hel556.pdf

Werbell was designing and experimenting with suppressors on the AR-15 and the M-16 during the early 1960's.

Werbell below watching over the firing of a suppressed M10.

James

Thanks, James. From what I've seen, Werbell didn't form Sionics until 67. On what source do you have it that Werbell was already messing with AR-15s in the early sixties? I once asked Hemming about this and he said no one in the Florida/anti-Castro world had AR-15s at that early date. The earliest reference I could find to the Florida anti-castro Crowd having AR-15s/M-16s was in 66 before the Masferrer planned raid on Haiti in January 67. I believe those guns were indeed provided by Werbell.

post-3573-1175729579_thumb.jpg

Edited by John Woods
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For anyone who has a copy of Someone Would Have Talked, check the very last appendix - A Small Clique in the CIA. You will find a great deal of information on what Werbell was doing in the early 60's including his first approach to the Agency, its temporary use of him and his initial dumping...plus what he was actually doing to cause them grief in 63. This is based on a number of documents which I found to be very informative and also very different than some common concepts of what he was doing when.

He definitely has connections to the "far east OSS network" and he parlayed that for his first CIA introduction....

You might also check the appendix documents on the WEB site; I forget exactly what's up there now but I do reference a number of Werbell CIA documents in the book.

-- Larry

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While studying the earwitnesses I came to the conclusion that there was almost certainly a suppressed (or subsonic) shot fired from the Dal-Tex Building. This brings up the question not only of who fired the shot but of who built or designed the suppressor system. Does anyone know what the legendary "genius" designer of suppressed and silenced weapons, Mitch Werbell, was doing at the time of the assassination? Does anyone know when he first began working on suppressors for the M-16? He's quoted in Jim Hougan's Spooks as saying that the CIA was worse than the Mafia, which implies he was familiar with both. Does anyone know if he ever worked with the mob? I believe at least two members of this Forum knew Werbell. Is it possible he was involved in the assassination, or that, at the very least, his weapons systems were used?

I had posted a theory concerning a possible silenced weapon a while back.

FYI... previous thread

Werbell had stated in the past that he had tried to develop a weapon based on this weapon. This weapon was operational and in inventory in 1963.

FWIW my grandfather was a Major in the OSS/OWI. He served in the "Dixie Mission" in Yunan and was quite freindly with Chenault, et al. He passed away before I was born so I don't have any direct info on the old china hands. But I don't believe he would have been involved with opium, from what I know. His OWI "boss" in Yunan was John Stewart Service. I have heard a few "funny" Mao stories he told my father though.

(fixed the link CN)

Edited by Chris Newton
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Here you go John W.......Dal Tex.......

From Sat.Evening Post...and a French Magazine 3 days after.

They went to the Dal Tex thinking that was the building that

the shots had originated from....not the TSBD..they did not know

any better.......or did they..??

B..

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He definitely has connections to the "far east OSS network" and he parlayed that for his first CIA introduction. (Larry Hancock)

For those who are interested, here is a dapper looking Mitch WerBell from his days with the OSS.

James

Edited by James Richards
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Guest John Woods

Hi Bernice,

Hershorn was not allowed entry into the TSBD on the 22nd but exposed the above frames the same day. He was informed by a DPD officer to go over to Walker's home and proceed to exposed a number of images

jhnw

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While studying the earwitnesses I came to the conclusion that there was almost certainly a suppressed (or subsonic) shot fired from the Dal-Tex Building. This brings up the question not only of who fired the shot but of who built or designed the suppressor system. Does anyone know what the legendary "genius" designer of suppressed and silenced weapons, Mitch Werbell, was doing at the time of the assassination? Does anyone know when he first began working on suppressors for the M-16? He's quoted in Jim Hougan's Spooks as saying that the CIA was worse than the Mafia, which implies he was familiar with both. Does anyone know if he ever worked with the mob? I believe at least two members of this Forum knew Werbell. Is it possible he was involved in the assassination, or that, at the very least, his weapons systems were used?

The arcane early twentieth century near silent "no silencer necessary" developed by Finnish poachers "the cat's sneeze".

http://www.guns.connect.fi/gow/arcane1.html

The loading of a near silent assassins cartridge is old 'technology'. Often used in a Mauser.

EDIT:: PS> It had already been used in assassination early 1900's.

The nature of the first shot fits the specs of a 'cat's whisper'. Fire cracker and short penetration. Also the shape of the back wound when the shoulder is not held as in the back autopsy photo, pulling the skin, could very well be like the shape of a cat's whisper bullet striking side on. It is short, and while accurate to say 30 meters, tends to tumble and perhaps 35% of the time will strike side on or near side on. The purpose of it is to cause maximum internal damage while not penetrating the body and harming others.(as well as protecting the user from discovery)

This would be an ideal choice for the first shot, where the shooter could be located amost anywhere, including amongst or immediately behind the main body of spectators. Marry this with a simple WWII flash cone, and perhaps a diversionary event like a real fire cracker, and you can have a simple (handgun sized) near silent weapon that could be easily concealed under a coat, in a box type thing like a camera, or on top of the cleaning van amongst the things on its roof rack.

Edited by John Dolva
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While studying the earwitnesses I came to the conclusion that there was almost certainly a suppressed (or subsonic) shot fired from the Dal-Tex Building. This brings up the question not only of who fired the shot but of who built or designed the suppressor system. Does anyone know what the legendary "genius" designer of suppressed and silenced weapons, Mitch Werbell, was doing at the time of the assassination? Does anyone know when he first began working on suppressors for the M-16? He's quoted in Jim Hougan's Spooks as saying that the CIA was worse than the Mafia, which implies he was familiar with both. Does anyone know if he ever worked with the mob? I believe at least two members of this Forum knew Werbell. Is it possible he was involved in the assassination, or that, at the very least, his weapons systems were used?

The arcane early twentieth century near silent "no silencer necessary" developed by Finnish poachers "the cat's sneeze".

http://www.guns.connect.fi/gow/arcane1.html

The loading of a near silent assassins cartridge is old 'technology'. Often used in a Mauser.

EDIT:: PS> It had already been used in assassination early 1900's.

The nature of the first shot fits the specs of a 'cat's whisper'. Fire cracker and short penetration. Also the shape of the back wound when the shoulder is not held as in the back autopsy photo, pulling the skin, could very well be like the shape of a cat's whisper bullet striking side on. It is short, and while accurate to say 30 meters, tends to tumble and perhaps 35% of the time will strike side on or near side on. The purpose of it is to cause maximum internal damage while not penetrating the body and harming others.(as well as protecting the user from discovery)

This would be an ideal choice for the first shot, where the shooter could be located amost anywhere, including amongst or immediately behind the main body of spectators. Marry this with a simple WWII flash cone, and perhaps a diversionary event like a real fire cracker, and you can have a simple (handgun sized) near silent weapon that could be easily concealed under a coat, in a box type thing like a camera, or on top of the cleaning van amongst the things on its roof rack.

I'm sure it all involves: Jack Cannon-the inventor of the Glaser Safety Slug and a serious killer in his own right, George Nonte&Mitch Werbell. Rifles, not pistols.

evan marshall

www.stoppingpower.net

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While studying the earwitnesses I came to the conclusion that there was almost certainly a suppressed (or subsonic) shot fired from the Dal-Tex Building. This brings up the question not only of who fired the shot but of who built or designed the suppressor system. Does anyone know what the legendary "genius" designer of suppressed and silenced weapons, Mitch Werbell, was doing at the time of the assassination? Does anyone know when he first began working on suppressors for the M-16? He's quoted in Jim Hougan's Spooks as saying that the CIA was worse than the Mafia, which implies he was familiar with both. Does anyone know if he ever worked with the mob? I believe at least two members of this Forum knew Werbell. Is it possible he was involved in the assassination, or that, at the very least, his weapons systems were used?

The arcane early twentieth century near silent "no silencer necessary" developed by Finnish poachers "the cat's sneeze".

http://www.guns.connect.fi/gow/arcane1.html

The loading of a near silent assassins cartridge is old 'technology'. Often used in a Mauser.

EDIT:: PS> It had already been used in assassination early 1900's.

The nature of the first shot fits the specs of a 'cat's whisper'. Fire cracker and short penetration. Also the shape of the back wound when the shoulder is not held as in the back autopsy photo, pulling the skin, could very well be like the shape of a cat's whisper bullet striking side on. It is short, and while accurate to say 30 meters, tends to tumble and perhaps 35% of the time will strike side on or near side on. The purpose of it is to cause maximum internal damage while not penetrating the body and harming others.(as well as protecting the user from discovery)

This would be an ideal choice for the first shot, where the shooter could be located amost anywhere, including amongst or immediately behind the main body of spectators. Marry this with a simple WWII flash cone, and perhaps a diversionary event like a real fire cracker, and you can have a simple (handgun sized) near silent weapon that could be easily concealed under a coat, in a box type thing like a camera, or on top of the cleaning van amongst the things on its roof rack.

I'm sure it all involves: Jack Cannon-the inventor of the Glaser Safety Slug and a serious killer in his own right, George Nonte&Mitch Werbell. Rifles, not pistols.

evan marshall

www.stoppingpower.net

The 'cat's sneeze' was not a 'technology' that was disseminated, rather it was discouraged. So it tended to be local. It was a method that used prefired cartridges. The prescicion of it was depended very much on knowledge/expertise. The result could be the opposite of what was wanted in the wrong hands. Some sites decribes it as 'rediscovered' by whoever at some time.

I was hesitant in writing pistol or revolver or rifle, Obviously the item is built to deliver the bullet. Handgun hints at something more compact, which could also be a cut down rifle.

I'm not arguing in any way against Werbell as a source of a weapon used but rather pointing out that a simple alternative was available if one only knew of it.

I guess what it amounts to is that a 'genius' is not necessary.

It was a Finnish or perhaps Balkan localised development/knowledge dating back to early 20'th century, which would include areas various persons of interest spent time in. Combining it with reports of person saving cartridges fired at dome range is another matter again. Speculative of course, but perhaps at some time the knowledge could be part of the puzzle.

Edited by John Dolva
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Does anyone know when he first began working on suppressors for the M-16?
Forget the M-16. Werbel's company, Sionics, made noise and flash suppressors for the M-14 in Vietnam. The correct nomenclature was "Sionics, Inc. M14SS-1 7.62 mm", I believe.

See picture below:

VietnamHuntingClub.jpg

Where's Ryan when I need the help?

The point in my thread about the Delisle is that it was in our CIA inventory in 1963 and it was a proven silenced weapon. The link to the earlier thread will take you to a PDF that explains this about the Delisle and Werbell:

In another WWII Account, former OSS Capt. Mitchell L. Werbell III, later to become one of the world's premier suppressor designers, remembered the use of the British Delisle carbines in Burma, saying "We worked a couple against sentries before raids and they were something else... better than the stuff we were issued. Both our people and the British used them in Indochina... Merrill's boys used to use them to terrorize and scare the xxxx out of the Japs at night and in ambush."

Werbell thought so much of the Delisle that years later, when he was head of SIONICS, his own specialized weapons company, he tried to invent his own version of the Delisle which he called the Destroyer carbine. He attempted to sell it to the US military for use in Vietnam, but production problems stopped this venture.

Interesting that SIONICS (which according to Werbell stood for "Studies In the Operational Negation of Insurgents and Counter-Subversion.") was merged into Military Armaments Corporation (MAC). While working for SIONICS, Gordon Ingram developed the MAC-10 (and later the MAC-11).

MAC was in turn owned by the holding company, Quantum Corporation, whose chairman, Rosser Scott Reeves III, was rumored to have connections to the "John Birch Society". A look Quantum's board may turn up a colorful bunch.

(edited to correct Ingram's first name - CN)

Edited by Chris Newton
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MAC was in turn owned by the holding company, Quantum Corporation, whose chairman, Rosser Scott Reeves III, was rumored to have connections to the "John Birch Society". A look Quantum's board may turn up a colorful bunch. (Chris Newton)

Good stuff, Chris.

One of Quantum's backers was Stewart Mott who was one of the more generous supporters of Democratic Presidential candidate George McGovern.

Mott also had connections to Richard Helms.

FWIW.

James

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