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Could a Conspiracy Theory Exist:


Jim Root

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Tim

You stated:

"In my opinion, and with respect to Jim's argument, it is tawdry to blacken the reputation of someone merely because he or she had a policy dispute with JFK. Policy disputes regardless of the intensity thereof do not turn civilized, law-abiding men into murderers. You need more that MMO to drag someone into the JFK assassination."

During WWII my father, a very civilized, law-abiding man, turned into a murderer. He killed repeatedly based upon a policy dispute that had led to war with the Japanese. After the war my father engaged in business with dozens of Japanese and never had an unkind word to say about the people as a race and held nothing against them for having killed many of his best buddies. Yet my father killed. It was war!

During the 1950's and 1960's the United States was engaged in a Cold War. The steaks were no less than those of WWII but with one additional fear, the total destruction of mankind via nuclear war. McCloy, as Asst. Sec. of War during WWII was in charge of the development of this weapon. He was the sole voice of reason against its use at Hiroshima. McCloy would continue to fear the spread of the nuclear weapons and continued for the rest of his life to advocate for the a verifiable end to the arms race that he feared would lead to nuclear war.

Kai Bird makes it very clear in his book about McCloy that McCloy was not only discusted with Kennedy about his change of position in arms negotiations (June of 1963) but also that McCloy saw no Republican candidate on the horizon that would be better. The elimination of Kennedy provided McCloy with a President that he could work with as he moved the world toward arms reduction and eased the nuclear tensions that were so prevasive during the 50's and 60's (no more drop drills in schools today).

During WWII McCloy was also over the OSS as well. Assassinations of a political nature would not be a new thing for a man in that position. During the invasion of Italy the State Department found that it was unable to administer the civilian government and needs in the areas being liberated. McCloy was called upon again to run a country (Italy) as it was liberated. He would do this again in Germany after the war as High Commissioner of Germany. And McCloy was the one man whose advice MacArthur would take on the administration of Japan.

McCloy knew how to get things done and usually got them done HIS way. He did not want the Paris Summit to come off and it did not come off. He was in a dispute with Kennedy over arms negotiations and Kennedy ended up dead. Was Oswald involved in both? If he was it is logical to look very closely at McCloy.

The fact that McCloy was involved in covering up 3 points as a Warren Commissioner:

1) Passenger lists for Oswald's London to Helsinki trip

2) Hosty's third note that stated where Oswald worked before the motorcade route was established

3) Oswald's attempt to contact John Hurt within hours of Oswald's own death

Points that could suggest that the failure of the Paris Summit was a US Intelligence operation involving Oswald and suggest the involvement of certain persons high within the goverment in providing Oswald with the opportunity to kill the president. The third point, Oswald's attempt to contact a person named John Hurt is perhaps the most important one that was "missed" by "the Warren Commission. Oswald attempted to contact a person who, at a minimum, shared a name with a NSA employee whose work is still to this day classified. A man who during WWII worked for and provided information to McCloy. A man who worked closely with the two men assigned by the CIA to investigate Oswald's potential intelligence contacts......But you don's seem to want to even consider McCloy because, "it is tawdry to blacken the reputation of someone merely because he or she had a policy dispute with JFK."

For the rest of his life, my father has wrestled with the fact that he WAS a killer, that he, a civilized man, killed and killed again. He always knew that if necessary he would kill again and he feared that fact. The one thing that kept him from going over the edge was his belief that what he had done was right and that it was a job that had to be done to save world from the likes of Tojo and Hitler.

For me it is not "hogwash" to believe that a man of McCloy's stature and reputation would in fact be willing to see the President of the United States die if he believed that the world could be saved from nuclear destruction. From what I have read of McCloy, he may have been the only man in the United States with the ability to do just that........but Kennedy stood in his way in 1963! "Tawdry" or not it is not beyond my comprehension to believe that a civilized man of McCloy's stature could engage in political assassination (as he did during WWII).

Jim Root

Edited by Jim Root
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When all is said and done, you still have no evidence whatsoever linking JJM to the assassination. None whatsoever.

You have no evidence connecting him to any assassinations in WWII. And as I have said before, that someone (e.g. Dulles) would involve himself in a plot to kill Adolph Hitler makes him a hero, not a villain. One only needs to consider the Holocaust to know that God himself would have approved the shooting, strangling or stabbing death of the evil madman and the people who assisted him in the deeds that a civilized person cannot even bear to contemplate.

Jim, your father was not a murderer in WWII. I am sure that murders can be committed in war time (My Lai comes to mind) but a combat soldier is not a murderer. Unfortunately, war is indeed hell and involves terrible death of both combatants and too often noncombatant civilians. It says a lot about your father that the killing that he did in WWII was on his conscience, however.

Just look at the accomplishments that McCloy made not only for the US but for the world. As you point out he assisted in the reformation of Italy, Germany and Japan. And you sully his reputation based on rank speculation. Have you no shame, sir?

Edited by Tim Gratz
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Tim

"When all is said and done, you still have no evidence whatsoever linking JJM to the assassination. None whatsoever."

John J. McCloy was a Warren Commissioner. If the Warren Commission concealed or in anyway covered up the assassination of JFK then McCloy is, at a minimum, an accessory after the fact. Are you saying that the man who came up with the language for the "single bullet theory" is not linked to the assassiantion. You cannot have it both ways Tim, "you sully his (McCloy's) reputation based on rank speculation. Have you no shame, sir?" everytime you question the Warren Commission report that McCloy so whole heartedly defended until his death.

But my "rank speculation" is not just speculation. After 15 years of research I have accumulated a great deal of informtion about McCloy which began by researching the life of Major General Edwin A. Walker. It did not begin by attempting to link McCloy to the assassination in anyway but rather by finding several pre assassination links between McCloy and Edwin Walker. Links that included, but are not limited to an association with John B. Hurt, a NSA employee with links to three men, McCloy, Maxwell Taylor and Edwin Walker as well as to Meridite Gardner and Frank Rowlet who would investigate Oswald's intelligence connections for the Warren Commission.

A few years ago you challenged me to provide information on where McCloy would lie to the American public. I provided that information, the Korematsu case, where McCloy was willing to alter the truth to suit the needs of the US Govt. before the Supreme Court of the United States. This was in the 1940's is it "rank speculation" to suggest that this man, McCloy, would engage in a similar vain in the 1960's if he felt the need to protect the interests of the United States?

You stated, "One only needs to consider the Holocaust to know that God himself would have approved the shooting, strangling or stabbing death of the evil madman and the people who assisted him in the deeds that a civilized person cannot even bear to contemplate." Yet it was McCloy, when indisputable evidence was brought to him as the Asst. Sec. of War of the Holocaust and the death camps, that made decission not to order the destruction of those camps by allied bombing although the resources were available to the allies to do just that. McCloy, in essence, allowed the deaths to continue then after the war was the man who pardoned many German industrialist who had profited from the forced labor provided by the concentrated peoples of Europe.

I would not be the first to "sully his (McCloy's) reputation" in many areas. A man who attained his position in the world is not above reproach just because he obtained that respected position. Hitler himself was highly respected in Germany because he brought his nation out of depression and returned it to a position of strength within Europe. That did not make Hitler a good or decent man, it makes him a historical character that upon examination of his complete life we can identify the evil villian that he was.

It is when we lay open history to honestly examine the total life of a man that we can begin to see the core essence of who they were. A simple examination in McCloys roll in the life of the Shah of Iran might be an interesting area for you to research. The way in which the US Government used its might to manipulate the peoples of other countries to do what was deemed best for the United States can be condemed or praised depending upon which way one wishes to interpert the actions of those involved. My father did kill. Does that make him evil? One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. It is all preception.

"Have you no shame, sir?" Conspiracy theorist have named, just to name a few, these organizations or individuals as potential conspirators. In each case one could use your comment on anyone who would bring up these organizations or indidviduals, wouldn't you agree? The FBI, the CIA, Texas Oilmen, Anti-Castro Cubans, The Catholic Church, Joseph Alsop, Hale Boggs, McGeorge Bundy, George Bush (senior), John Connelly, Richard Helms, Nikita Khrushchev, Edward Lansdale, Lyndon Johnson, Richard Nixon, Eugene Rostow, Arlen Specter, General Charles Willoughby, etc., etc.

If we are not allowed to present our research without "shame" then why bother with the research? If we must eliminate anyone who has attained any level of repect in this nation, warrented or unwarrented depending upon one individuals own values, then we could, I suppose, eliminate most everyone in government from being a suspect in the assassination of JFK. But then how would we explain the failure of the Warren Commission to truely investigate who Lee Harvey Oswald really was?

McCloy did play a very powerful roll in the failure of the Warren Commission to present all the evidence. The three points that I keep harping upon on not in dispute. The Warren Commission failed to provide the passenger list for Oswald's travel from London to Helsinki, lists that were available at the time. The Warren Commission failed to assign an exhibit number to the third Hosty note although it was McCloy who was questioning Hosty when the information was presented by Hosty about where Oswald was working. And the Warren Commission failed to let the American public know that Lee Harvey Oswald had attempted to contact someone by the name of John Hurt, a man that shared a name with an NSA employee that McCloy had worked closely with during WWII and whose work is still classified to this day.

Rank speculation or good research? One mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist.

Jim Root

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To claim that McCloy was "linked" to the assassination because he participated in the Warren Commission is just absurd. So Earl Warren, Arlen Specter and others were also "linked" to the assassination?

Re who made the decision not to bomb the death camps, I thought FDR himself was involved in that decision. I am not sufficiently well read on WWII to know why there was even any question about that but obviously there was. Certainly McCloy was no defender of the Holocaust and certainly his input into that decision has absolutely nothing to do with whether he conspired to kill JFK. So why even bring it up?

What difference does it make that (if) McCloy had links to Gen. Walker unless you can prove Walker was a conspirator? Do you have any proof Walker was a conspirator?

And re the issue of John Hurt and McCloy's association with a man by that name, perhaps you need to explain your theory more. Was LHO a conspirator or not? Was Hurt himself involved in the conspiracy? If so, what evidence do you have to support THAT assertion? If Hurt was innocent, how does it implicate McCloy that McCloy may have worked with or been associated with him?

If you think LHO was innocent, and LHO contacts John Hurt, who is also innocent, I just cannot fathom how it adds anything to your theory to associate McCloy and Hurt.

Edited by Tim Gratz
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Tim

Let me start by saying that I appreciate your questions. They allow me to attempt to present the thousands of pages of research that I have gathered in a more detailed manner. As Gerald McKnight told me, when we uncover the truth of the assassination it will be stranger than any fiction novel that could ever be written.

What I have uncovered is very complex and has been pieced together by a careful examination of the lives of three men, Walker, McCloy and Maxwell Taylor. It does not begin on Nov.22, 1963 but rather goes back to 1927 and is woven together in a myriad of complex ways. My research is factual and takes into account all the information presented in the Warren Commission Report. Where I am stumpted is that I do get stuck on McCloy and his position on the Paris Summit. He did not want it to occur and it did not occur. Here is the if......If Oswald played a roll in the dowing of Francis Gary Powers and the U-2 then very few people would understand or have knowledge of how that transpired. McCloy benifited from that event and the proof is Kennedy's first press conference with McCloy by his side. I will suggest again, if the Paris Summit had transpired and Nixon would have stood next to Eisenhower and Khrushchev proclaiming peace and a thawing of the Cold War, Kennedy would not have won the 1960 election. At the time the Democratic primary was still in dispute. But the Paris Summit did not occur, Kennedy won the primary then the election and McCloy was named by Kennedy as his primary arms advisor in the very first words of his very first press conference as President. But by June of 1963 McCloy was in a dispute with Kennedy. Also in June of 1963 McCloy would pen his letter to Walker. Coincidence? Perhaps, but I feel that further investigation is both necessary and appropriate!

"To claim that McCloy was "linked" to the assassination because he participated in the Warren Commission is just absurd. So Earl Warren, Arlen Specter and others were also "linked" to the assassination?"

Do you claim that McCloy is not linked to the assassination story? If the Warren Commission failed in its mission then McCloy was part of that. If the Warren Commission covered up a conspiracy to assassinate the President, McCloy was part of that. Earl Warren, Arlen Specter and McCloy have been linked to the assassination by others long before I began researching the assassination. For myself I stumbled upon McCloy, so to speak, when I uncovered a letter he had written to Edwin Walker five months before the assassination. The letter itself may be a curiosity but it sparked further research into the Walker - McCloy association. I then identified two specific missions that were of importance to McCloy and the war effort as well as the post war efforts that McCloy was closely attuned to. Strange that one man, Walker, can be closely associated to McCloy yet McCloy did not participate in the questioning of Walker (nor did any other Warren Commissioner participate in the Walker testimony). Walker's involvement in the Greek Civil War, the First Straits of Taiwan Crisis and even Little Rock and the assassination of JFK makes Walker the Forrest Gump of histories mysteries.

Walker, would you not agree, is closely linked to the assassination. The fact that communication occured between McCloy and Walker five months before the assassination, while perhaps just a coincidence, sould be worth examining further or do you disagree?

"Re who made the decision not to bomb the death camps, I thought FDR himself was involved in that decision. I am not sufficiently well read on WWII to know why there was even any question about that but obviously there was. Certainly McCloy was no defender of the Holocaust and certainly his input into that decision has absolutely nothing to do with whether he conspired to kill JFK. So why even bring it up?"

I brought up the Holocaust because in a previous post you brought it up, "One only needs to consider the Holocaust to know that God himself would have approved the shooting, strangling or stabbing death of the evil madman and the people who assisted him in the deeds that a civilized person cannot even bear to contemplate." It is important to enlighten those that do understand the roll that McCloy played in WWII and the position of power that he held at that early time so that they might begin to appreciate how McCloy maintained his position of power in the world. Knowledge is power and McCloy, who had been the keeper of the most important secretes of WWII, had access to that knowledge and that knowledge gave him power. McCloy, as Asst. Sec. of War kept the essential elements of the OSS together after Truman dispanded that organization. McCloy then was involved in the National Security Act and the creation and organization of the CIA and the National Security Agency. I do not believe that he walked away from those organizations after their creation but rather that he remained very involved. When J. Edgar Hoover expressed his concern to Lyndon Johnson about McCloy's appointment to the Warren Commission it was not because McCloy sought publicity but because McCloy had out of necessity shunned publicity.

"What difference does it make that (if) McCloy had links to Gen. Walker unless you can prove Walker was a conspirator? Do you have any proof Walker was a conspirator?"

I do not have proof that Walker was a conspirator. To the contrary I believe that the phone call between Walker and a German newspaper (that publicized the Oswald - Walker assassination attempt the Thursday before the FBI began investigating that event is signifigant) was a reaction of fear on the part of General Walker. Fear that he would be associated with Oswald and become entangled or accused in the assassination of JFK. In Nov. of 1963 Walker was an outspoken critic of Kennedy's. Before 1961 Walker was a true American hero! When I first examined his military record I was surprized to uncover two interesting points. During WWII Walker commanded units that would provide over 100 future OSS and CIA operatives (including a future head of the CIA). Also, Waker was traveling in Europe at exactly the same time that Oswald's mysterious flight from London to Helsinki occured. With the help of Antti Hynonen we have proven that the two COULD have been a the same plane, but of course not passenger lists were presented from Oswald's travels. I have also proven that Oswald could have gone from LaHarve to Paris and arrived on a flight in Helsinki that would also be one of the two flights that he would have been on leaving London and flying to Helsinki on ly one day earlier. The extra extra travel and extra day that Oswald used is the only example of Oswald being less than frugal that anyone has ever presented. Yet that extra travel day allowed John Hickerson to provide information to the State Department that said if a person were to show up at the Russian Embassy in Helsinki with First Class Intourist vouchers in had they could receive a visa into the Soviet Union within 24 hours. Oswald followed those direction to the letter! Who gave him that information? I suggest that it could have been Walker who, as I have pointed out, was used by McCloy previously to conduct some very sensitive missions (as well as repeatedly by Maxwell Taylor).

Did Walker recognize Oswald after the assassination? The FBI did not begin survailing Oswald in ernest until after the Walker assassination attempt. The CIA admits that if it were known that Oswald had attempted to assassinate Walker then Oswald would be an odds on bet to assassinate Kennedy. Who would have access to that information?????? Perhaps only the man who was intent on the Paris Summit not happening and that would be John J. McCloy.

The motorcade would travel much further South than it had to in order to get to the Trade Mart luncheon. The final building it would pass would be where Oswald worked and the information that the FBI had gathered about where Oswald worked never even received a Commission Exhibit number! McCloy, the man who cracked the Black Tom case, did not find it important enough to follow up on who within the Government had access to this information. Yet both McCloy and Dulles would know that the normal procedure for a FBI report was that the State Department received a copy and they would both know that State Department copies and information made it to the CIA as did the FBI reports on Oswald. But McCloy neglected to investigate this important avenue further.

"And re the issue of John Hurt and McCloy's association with a man by that name, perhaps you need to explain your theory more. Was LHO a conspirator or not? Was Hurt himself involved in the conspiracy? If so, what evidence do you have to support THAT assertion? If Hurt was innocent, how does it implicate McCloy that McCloy may have worked with or been associated with him?"

Your best question and the one that I believe is the most important. Since Oswald attempted to contact John Hurt and there was a John Hurt that had been a NSA employee whose work is still so important that it remains classified to this day, did that fact (Oswald's attempted contact of John Hurt) bring into line all the intelligence organizations to coverup that single piece of information and therefore coverup any information about Oswald's involvement in the scuttling of the Paris Summit by US Intelligence? Without any words being said, without any orders being given, without taking any personal risk who could assure that a connection between Oswald and US Intelligence would never be revealed? Connect Oswald to an intelligence asset so important, to a person whose work is so deepley classified that it could never be revealed. That connection brought in two very important characters within the NSA to investigate Oswald's intelligence connections, Frank Rowlett and Meredith Gardner both associates and closely connect to John Hurt. I do not believe this is a coincidence.

Yet John J. McCloy is one of the few people who would have know the importance of John Hurt and the work that he would have done.

I connect dots and those dots have led me to McCloy!

Jim Root

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  • 4 weeks later...
As most of you know my research centers around potential conspriators rather than the actual moments surrounding the death of President Kennedy on Nov. 22, 1963. With this disclaimer I would like to ask those of you who have researched those "moments" of death in Dealey Plaza,

"Do you believe that it is possible that Oswald could have been 'A' shooter on that fateful day?"

Jim Root

Absolutely, unequivocally not ... unless he was shooting from one of the offices on the lower floors, or perhaps from the loading dock.

I've been working the past couple of months on something I'm tentatively calling "The Great Elevator Shuffle, the Three Blind Mice, and the Invisible Man." It is practically a moment-by-moment dissection of what all of the "main players" in the TSBD did from about 11:45 until a few minutes after the shooting.

Close - one might even say minute - attention is paid to what these people said they did, what they said other people did, and what other people said they did:

  • The floor-laying crew: Danny Arce, Billy Lovelady, Hank Norman and Bonnie Ray Williams;
  • Supervisors Bill Shelley and Roy Truly;
  • Order-fillers Charles "Slim" Givens and Jack Dougherty (and to a lesser extent, Lee Oswald);
  • Order-checker James Earl "Junior" Jarman;
  • Shipper Troy West and janitor Eddie Piper; and
  • Street-level witnesses Arnold Rowland and Amos Euins, among a handful of others.

The results are quite surprising. Among the more surprising are that:

  • Lee Oswald absolutely, positively could not have gone down the stairs from the sixth floor to the second, nor could he have taken an elevator (unless he had a helper ... which is the only way he could've been a shooter); and
  • Bonnie Ray Williams was very probably on the sixth floor to within three minutes of the shooting, most likely saw the shooter(s), was seen by the shooter(s), and knew full well that Lee Oswald wasn't on the sixth floor with them.

All of this - about 60 pages to date, and the "Invisible Man" part isn't even started yet! - is undergoing fact-checking and some pretty critical review, so far with no strong dissent.

This is where I'm supposed to go into "blurb" mode, gush about "astounding" discoveries, "astonishing" facts, "shocking" new evidence, and other "startling" stuff "never before discussed in any medium," but I'll save that for someone else once I've finished this thing.

:tomatoes:rolleyes:

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Bonnie Ray Williams was very probably on the sixth floor to within three minutes of the shooting, most likely saw the shooter(s), was seen by the shooter(s), and knew full well that Lee Oswald wasn't on the sixth floor with them. (Duke Lane)

Duke,

I hold the belief that Williams indeed saw both 6th floor sniper teams.

I was told Williams died in 1996. Are you able to confirm that, or not?

James

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I hold the belief that Williams indeed saw both 6th floor sniper teams. I was told Williams died in 1996. Are you able to confirm that, or not?

I think it's unquestionable that he was there as xxxx was going down, tho' exactly what he saw ...? He saw whoever was there, whether that was Lee Oswald or half the Olympic Rifle Team, and I don't believe that he escaped their notice either. Can we say "fear of God," boys and girls? If we can, that eliminates one Lone Nut Assassin anyway, eh?

Walt Brown also told me Bonnie Ray had died, tho' I haven't confirmed it yet with an obit or anything. I know Slim Givens is dead, but I'm not sure about Hank and Junior.

Duke, I realize it is a WIP. My sense is that Bonnie Ray Williams lied - as did some others. Setting aside his movements and lies, for the moment, there is precious little on who he was as a person...political leanings; friends; connections, etc. Any light you care to shed on this aspect now? What became of him after Dallas? Thanks.

I suspect that many of the lies were ass-coverings, mixed in with a few broad hints that there was more to the story than met the eye. Until and unless I meet people he knew personally - and I don't know of anyone who's done anything like that - I suspect that information about what he was "all about" will remain about as forever shrouded in mystery as my neighbor's outlook on life! The views of most "average Joes" don't gain wide publicity, and often I wonder at the wisdom of delving too deeply into witnesses' personal lives, if only from the standpoint that it must be pretty wierd to have people you don't even know telling you things about yourself that you've long since forgotten or shrugged off as unimportant.

It strikes me that Walt Brown wrote a short albeit posthumous piece about BRW in Deep Politics Quarterly some time ago. I'm not sure if he's got an index to DPQ online or not, but may have it on CD.

Have you gone to the TSBD Building and examined the material that is available there on the subject matter you are researching?

Not as yet, tho' in truth, I don't know exactly what they might have. It seems I'm never in the neighborhood at a convenient time, am not being sure what I'm specifically looking for anyway, "convenient times" probably need to be arranged in advance, and I almost never know in advance when I'll be able to do that. Perhaps some lurker somewhere will shed some light on the subject ...?

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As most of you know my research centers around potential conspriators rather than the actual moments surrounding the death of President Kennedy on Nov. 22, 1963.

With this disclaimer I would like to ask those of you who have researced those "moments" of death in Dealey Plaza,

"Do you believe that it is possible that Oswald could have been "A" shooter on that fateful day?"

Jim Root

As I guess some people around here know that I'm a Harvey/Lee-er. Lee Oswald shot from the 6th floor window to get Harvey in trouble, as they resembled one another.

Norman Mailer did theorize in his book, Oswald's Tale, that Oswald might have been a shooter, either alone -- or not at all; or unknowingly, separate from another killer(s); or as part of the conspiracy totally. In other words, Mailer couldn't figure it out. He left the whole mystery unsolved in that large tome of a book.

But I, too, have to admit, that at the time I read Mailer's book, I believed Oswald was up to no good, shooter or not, and therefore, a punk. I agreed with Mailer. I've come a long way since then in my beliefs about the Assassination.

So someone did theorize that Oswald could have been A shooter -- with others, say, on the Grassy Knoll. Knowingly or unknowingly.

Kathy

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IF Oswald did do it the way the WC said he did (and yes, that is a big "if"), I have to wonder if he was actually shooting at JBC and simply didn't "lead" the shots properly? Might he have seen JBC as being responsible for his not being able to reverse his dishonorable discharge? It seems to me that he had written JBC or there was a letter in his possessions from JBC refusing to change his status.

DISCLAIMER: The preceding was for the sake of argument only!

JWK

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I would pose the question to any conspiracy involving LHO as "A" shooter - or any non-conspiracy theory involving LHO as the shooter - how did he get downstairs?

That is not "how did he get downstairs in 90 seconds, calm and unwinded," etc., but simply how did he get downstairs?

Consider that there were three men - Bonnie Ray Williams, Hank Norman and Junior Jarman - directly underneath the SE 6th floor window who did not hear anyone running - or even walking - upstairs, nor did they see or hear anyone - anyone at all - near the NW stairwell and elevators during or after the time they had run to the western windows to look out over the railroad yards, and certainly didn't see anyone shooting from the fifth floor.

There is a supposition that they didn't hear anyone overhead because they, too, were running. Their vision directly to the stairwell was blocked by a rack of shelves. But LHO having to hurry (if not exactly run) down the wooden stairs in an enclosed space that was noisy enough to prevent Roy Truly from noticing if an elevator was operating on his way upstairs with Officer Baker, would likewise have created a fair amount of noise. The boys on five weren't running anymore. How did they not hear him coming down then?

Consider also that Jack Dougherty, another order-filler, was standing on the fifth floor approximately 10 feet west of the west elevator - that is, just about directly between the stairwell coming down from six and that descending to four - when he heard the first shot, which he said he thought (at one point) was a simple backfire, no cause for alarm or curiosity. Without going anywhere else on the floor - which was also occupied by the three men above, who did not see anyone at all on five - he then boarded the west elevator and rode it down to the first floor.

Here we also know that, when Roy Truly followed Baker into the building, as much as a minute or so after the last shot, he looked up the elevator shaft and saw
both elevators on the fifth floor
, meaning that Jack hadn't begun his descent yet. Since he hadn't been seen by the men on five - meaning he hadn't left the vicinity of the west elevator, for had he, he would have been visible to the men - it means that Jack was still roughly in the path of the supposedly fleeing Oswald
even as late as when Oswald was in or going into the second floor lunch room.

Since Lee didn't run by Jack (who nobody has ever claimed was deaf or blind), and since he didn't and couldn't have taken either elevator and managed to get it back upstairs by the time Roy Truly looked up the shaft, how did Lee get downstairs?

Simple answer: he couldn't have ... ergo he couldn't have been a shooter from any floor above the fourth, which was all offices across the front, not to mention the fact he'd have had to walk by a handful of women who were watching out the SW corner window of four at the time of the shooting, one of whom went down the stairs at the same time Lee would've had to have gone down, too, no matter what floor he'd been shooting from, yet she testified to not having seen or heard anyone on the stairs. Perhaps it was the noise of her high heels, or having to look down to be sure of her footing?

But wait! We know he did, so therefore, somehow, he did. As Sherlock Holmes is credited with saying, "when you eliminate the impossible, you're left with the fact that Lee Harvey Oswald did it." Or words to a similar effect ....(!)

Edited by Duke Lane
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Duke

The walk from the "snipers nest" to where the MC was located is very short and would not have taken much time. I made the walk myself in seconds through a crowed room with numerous assassination displays to obstruct my own recreation. The MC was located adjacent to where the stairwell was and would have been a natural place for an assassin to have stashed a weapon before moving downstairs toward the confusion which must have been created by the assassination.

I believe there is an accurate video recreation of how the assassins escape could have been accomplished in the time alloted without leaving the person who performed the recreation winded in any way. Gary Mack was involved in the recreation and I believe a copy is available at the 6th Floor museum.

Jim Root

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... The walk from the "snipers nest" to where the MC was located is very short and would not have taken much time. I made the walk myself in seconds through a crowed room with numerous assassination displays to obstruct my own recreation. The MC was located adjacent to where the stairwell was and would have been a natural place for an assassin to have stashed a weapon before moving downstairs toward the confusion which must have been created by the assassination.

I believe there is an accurate video recreation of how the assassins escape could have been accomplished in the time alloted without leaving the person who performed the recreation winded in any way. Gary Mack was involved in the recreation and I believe a copy is available at the 6th Floor museum.

Did you actually read what I wrote, Jim, or are you arguing with a straw man?

Yes, the timing was possible. Gary wasn't the only one involved in that timing, and I'm fully aware of it, even have the address where it was done. So?

It has nothing to do with the timing. It has nothing to do with being winded.

"Would not have," "would have been," "must have been," "could have been." I just want to know how someone going at any speed can go from point "a" to point "b" without being seen by someone who testified to standing at point "X" on this image:

If there's no explanation for that, I'm not sure what the point of "reconstructions" is.

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Duke

You stated, "Bonnie Ray Williams was very probably on the sixth floor to within three minutes of the shooting, most likely saw the shooter(s), was seen by the shooter(s), and knew full well that Lee Oswald wasn't on the sixth floor with them."

I don't believe the shooter/s stayed around on the 6th floor for "three minutes." The shooter/s would have been off that floor in very short order perhaps under a minute. Since the three men on the 5th floor did hear the shells hitting the floor from the rifle on the floor above they would have had to travel exactly the same distance as a person exiting the area to have seen the shooter/s. Would they have been in as much of a hurry to rush to find the assassin/s as the assassin/s would have been in to exit the area? Or would they have hesitated for a few moments to observe the drama that was unfolding before their very eyes as they peered out the 5th floor window at the scene below?

While you suggest that no one could have left the 6th floor without being seen you seem to suggest that assassins could have entered and exited the building without being seen.

I do not question your sincerity in what you believe but having been on the scene and walked the area I believe that the timming you suggest gives Oswald or anyone else the opportunity to exit the area.

If we suggest that Oswald was no where near the 6th floor we still have to have someone going to the 6th floor to leave the rifle and the shell cassing (which were heard hitting the floor while the shooting was going on), build the snipers nest and leave Oswald prints on the boxes and rifle without being seen going to the 6th floor and without being seen by anybody exiting the area after the shooting. The soud of the shell casings being ejected prove/suggest that someone was on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting. I find it easier to believe that it was Oswald on the 6th floor and exiting the 6th floor without being seen than to have strangers come into the building, plant the evidence that points to Oswald and then they themselves exit the scene without being seen.

For me it is more difficult to believe in evidence planters on the 6th floor that were not seen going or comming than it is to accept that Oswald may have been the shooter.

Jim Root

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