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The sound of the shell casings being ejected prove/suggest that someone was on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting.

There is reason to doubt that Norman heard shells being ejected AT the time of the shOOTING. He did not mention this in his initial report, and his Warren Commission testimony came after he had participated in a reenactment during which he DID hear shells hitting the floor above him.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassi...amp;lnk=ol&

I find it easier to believe that it was Oswald on the 6th floor and exiting the 6th floor without being seen than to have strangers come into the building, plant the evidence that points to Oswald and then they themselves exit the scene without being seen.

Jim Root

It is easy to believe that ONLY if you disregard the evidence cited by Duke, especially the testimony of Jack Daugherty.

I just want to know how someone going at any speed can go from point "a" to point "b" without being seen by someone who testified to standing at point "X" on this image:

I for one will be looking forward to Duke's OPUS on this topic.

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You stated, "Bonnie Ray Williams was very probably on the sixth floor to within three minutes of the shooting, most likely saw the shooter(s), was seen by the shooter(s), and knew full well that Lee Oswald wasn't on the sixth floor with them."

I don't believe the shooter/s stayed around on the 6th floor for "three minutes." The shooter/s would have been off that floor in very short order perhaps under a minute.

Those are two different ends of the spectrum, with the center being the shooting. I'm not drawing the connection between my saying that BRW was on six "to within three minutes of the shooting" (i.e., before the shooting, since he was clearly on the fifth during and after the shooting) and your suggestion that nobody would stay upstairs for three minutes after it.

I think we'd agree, however, that JFK was due at the Trade Mart for a 12:30 luncheon, and therefore that it was a good presumption that he'd have come by the TSBD before 12:30, wouldn't we? And also that, just as it was possible for him to be late - as he was - it was also possible for him to have been early; agreed?

Would we also agree, then, that the shooter/s would have wanted to have been ready to do the deed at whatever time JFK were to have come by, and would therefore have been in place at least a couple of minutes before his scheduled arrival, and possibly a few minutes earlier in case he was early?

Up to this point, I don't see any issues since, after all, the general attribution is that LHO spent half an hour upstairs, undetected, prior to the shooting, preparing to do the deed. If he could have remained undetected - and "apparently" did, if it was him - then so could someone else. LHO's only supposed advantage is that he worked there, and his presence in his place of employment wouldn't have aroused much suspicion. Unless, of course, someone who saw him also happened to see the rifle in his hand ....

I don't believe that the shooters were undetected. What I'm saying is that BRW was upstairs on six while the shooters were setting up (I'm confident more than one person was there, so I'll stick to the plural), that he saw them and they saw him, and that "they" did not include Lee Oswald. Even if it did include Oswald, he wasn't alone. But Oswald wasn't there.

I'll even go so far as to say that BRW was not allowed to go down to five until the parade's arrival was imminent so that he couldn't raise an alarm against them, or even if he'd tried, it would've been too late. (Trying, however, would've been stupid on his part.)

Since the three men on the 5th floor did hear the shells hitting the floor from the rifle on the floor above they would have had to travel exactly the same distance as a person exiting the area to have seen the shooter/s. Would they have been in as much of a hurry to rush to find the assassin/s as the assassin/s would have been in to exit the area? Or would they have hesitated for a few moments to observe the drama that was unfolding before their very eyes as they peered out the 5th floor window at the scene below?

That's always a tough question, tho' I'm not sure the question is whether "the unfolding drama" is what kept them from doing anything. At least two out of three of them testified that they'd felt it was "dangerous" upstairs, and thus didn't go to investigate said shells falling and rifle booming ... and two of them recognized it as rifle fire, especially Junior Jarman, who'd done two separate three-year stints in the Army. He was the first to effectively dive for cover, taking the others with him.

"Dangerous" was probably a good word. After all, someone had just done some shooting upstairs; that much was fairly obvious. Would you rush to confront an armed man who had the guts to shoot at the President of the US of A? Yet at the same time, wouldn't your curiosity be at least a little piqued to find out who'd done that shooting without putting yourself in harm's way, sort of the old "look without looking like you're looking" trick?

I've already said that I believe that BRW had already looked the shooters in the eye, so what he did or didn't claim to see on the fifth floor is of relatively little consequence. The other two guys professed no curiosity whatsoever, more intent on finding out who'd apparently done the shooting over by the railroad tracks that everyone was rushing to, than in getting a glimpse of whoever had been shooting directly over their heads, shells falling on the floor. Probably a wise move on their parts under the circumstances: hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil ... just give me three steps, mister, and you'll never hear from me no more! (For shor'!)

Of course, you'd have to believe that they held no curiosity and saw nothing, purposely or otherwise, true or not. Bonnie Ray, at least, said that he'd kept an eye on what was going on over by the elevators and stairwell, as best as he could see the area. WC counsel, of course, meticulously went about proving that he couldn't have even seen what little he did claim to see, Marrion Baker's white motorcycle helmet. Wouldn't it have been a windfall if he'd said that he'd seen - or at least heard - Lee rushing down the stairs?

But the supposition presented was that they didn't hear anyone running upstairs - despite being able to hear shells hitting the floor - because they themselves were running and making noise. Maybe so, but I think it's more likely that Bonnie Ray - who was going to "get out of the building" (a perfectly strange thing or an onlooker who only wanted to watch a parade to say!) if he hadn't come across Junior and Hank on the fifth floor - had already told them what was going on upstairs. They knew, and purposely didn't look - or at least said they didn't - because what ya don't know won't get ya killed.

(Bonnie Ray said that he'd thought they might've been there because he heard their footsteps while he was eating his lunch, or maybe "the windows moving" - being opened, probably. Odd, don't you think, that he could hear footsteps falling on a floor ten feet below him through the floor he was sitting on, but nobody could hear footsteps falling on a floor only about five feet above their heads with nothing in between? The whole business about the heavy boxes on the floor above muffling the sound doesn't hold water since there were heavy boxes on the fifth floor to muffle footsteps there, too.)

While you suggest that no one could have left the 6th floor without being seen you seem to suggest that assassins could have entered and exited the building without being seen. I do not question your sincerity in what you believe but having been on the scene and walked the area I believe that the timing you suggest gives Oswald or anyone else the opportunity to exit the area.

If we suggest that Oswald was no where near the 6th floor we still have to have someone going to the 6th floor to leave the rifle and the shell cassing (which were heard hitting the floor while the shooting was going on), build the snipers nest and leave Oswald prints on the boxes and rifle without being seen going to the 6th floor and without being seen by anybody exiting the area after the shooting. The sound of the shell casings being ejected prove/suggest that someone was on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting. I find it easier to believe that it was Oswald on the 6th floor and exiting the 6th floor without being seen than to have strangers come into the building, plant the evidence that points to Oswald and then they themselves exit the scene without being seen.

For me it is more difficult to believe in evidence planters on the 6th floor that were not seen going or coming than it is to accept that Oswald may have been the shooter.

I'm not disputing someone shooting from the sixth floor. I'm simply saying that if it was LHO, who had to be downstairs (by pure happenstance: who'd have known Baker would rush into the building?) within 90 seconds, he could not have done so without passing within two feet of Jack Dougherty, if not actually bumping into him. Jack heard one sound (which he took to be a backfire from the parade he'd have "loved to see," but which this "great big husky fellow" "would never have been able to see" because of the crush of people outside the TSBD; in other words, nothing to be concerned about, that backfire) and was standing on the fifth floor, "ten feet west of the west elevator," at the "X" I'd marked in the diagram above. While he may undoubtedly have moved about from that exact spot, he did not leave the immediate environs of the elevator and stairwell, as evidenced by the fact that none of the three other men on the fifth floor - or even just BRW - claimed to have seen him.

That he wasn't concerned about a "backfire" is further evidenced by the fact that Jack also did not leave the area by taking the elevator anywhere until after Roy Truly had looked up the elevator shaft on the first floor, and saw the bottoms of both elevators at the fifth floor, together, fully a minute after the shooting had stopped. By this point, LHO was either in or almost in the second floor lunchroom, regardless of where he'd come from. If he'd come from the sixth floor, though, he'd have had to pass almost literally within inches of Jack Dougherty without being seen, heard or even felt (as the air eddied behind him, or even as his feet vibrated the floor as he passed) by Jack.

Jack's testimony could've been another windfall ("I was standing there by the elevator when that Lee fellow came barrelling down the stairs at a dead run"), but wasn't ... and that simply because he did not see, hear or feel Lee Oswald run by him, and that in turn is simply because Lee didn't run by him. If he had, Jack would've said so. He was not deaf and blind.

Bear in mind here that I'm not saying that nobody saw anybody, I'm simply saying that nobody saw Lee Oswald do what he was purported to have done. BRW ate his lunch within 15 feet of the "sniper's nest" window, but claimed not to be able to see anything from where he sat, effectively because (get this!) the sniper's nest boxes were in the way. He was on the sixth floor until at least 12:25, and probably as late as 12:27-28; that's provable. And, that being the case, Bonnie Ray Williams therefore did see the shooter/s. If that were LHO, acting alone, what's the harm in saying so? What was Lee going to do: rise from the dead and kill his family? A gunman (or gunmen) who hadn't been caught, on the other hand, is a completely different keg of beer.

Can gunmen who weren't Lee Oswald have gotten into and out of the building undetected? The answer is a resounding "yes," with the caveat that they were detected, even if only by Bonnie Ray Williams. Chances are, however, that they were also seen by others, but their still being at large would certainly cause a wee bit of hesitancy on anyone's part in saying so. I can actually show how it could've been done, both in and out, based on long-available evidence. The question is whether anyone else who'd seen them was an observer or an abettor. They'd have at least the same incentive as Bonnie Ray not to have said anything.

Since the shooters weren't constrained by the time limits of having to be in the second floor lunchroom 90 seconds after the shooting, it becomes all the more possible, even plausible ... and also explains why nobody was heard running across the sixth floor after the shooting: because nobody was running up there! As it was, they had - at the least - all the time it took for Baker and Truly to run up four or five flights of stairs ... and it wasn't even a given that Baker or anyone else would've rushed into the building, just like nobody rushed into the Dal-Tex building. All that was absolutely necessary was to prevent anyone who did come in to search the building from having access to the elevators, which was done whether by accident or design.

And lo, don't you know that by the time Baker and Truly got to the fifth floor (where, remember, Truly had seen the bottoms of the elevators), one of those two elevators had left the floor? Is it not therefore possible if not probable that said gunmen had only to finish their business upstairs, walk down a single flight of stairs, walk about 15 feet straight forward from the stairs, and exit via the elevator going down from the fifth floor while Baker and Truly were noisily running up in an enclosed wooden stairwell?

Oddly, while the elevator was certainly a potential means of escape, and while Truly had seen both of them on the fifth floor when he'd looked up the shaft, he did not call Baker's attention to the fact of the west elevator's absence when they'd reached the fifth floor, and did not himself investigate where it had gone, but instead led Baker over to the far side of the elevator shaft to the non-automatic east passenger elevator, and then bypassed the sixth floor to get to the seventh and the roof. (Granted that Baker's destination had always been the roof, but this nevertheless does create additional time and opportunity for an escape.)

In all, the shooters had as much as three to five minutes to clear out of the sixth floor. A reasonable question is whether they ever intended or even needed to clear completely out of the building. What if, a la Patrolman Smith's "Secret Service" guy on the knoll, they had dressed up as to be confused with cops who'd presumably be searching the building after the shooting? Even if nobody had come in to search the building, if they looked like cops, they'd only have to say that they were searching the building. "Search" complete, out they went.

As a matter of fact, there were two men - seen by two witnesses - who were believed to have been plainclothes cops seen on and coming down from the fourth floor even before Luke Mooney - the first law enforcement type to actually go out onto the sixth floor (Baker had only looked out from the elevator area) - had gotten upstairs. Between Baker's coming down and Mooney's going up, however, there is no record of any police officers on the upper floors of the building, and certainly not any who'd gone up, searched the place and were already leaving by the time Mooney started up. If I'm wrong about that, correct me.

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The sound of the shell casings being ejected prove/suggest that someone was on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting.
There is reason to doubt that Norman heard shells being ejected AT the time of the shOOTING. He did not mention this in his initial report, and his Warren Commission testimony came after he had participated in a reenactment during which he DID hear shells hitting the floor above him.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassi...amp;lnk=ol&

This link discusses the "debris" - supposedly plaster or dust? - that was on Bonnie Ray Williams' head. This is an interesting topic, especially in light of my contention that BRW was on the sixth floor while the shooters were there (and did I say "not hidden from them?"). What possible sources of the debris could there have been?

There is a possibility that it fell on his head when something moved upstairs - possibly a box being dropped, as Patricia Lambert posited? - but one wonders why it didn't also fall on Junior Jarman's head, only a few short feet from where Bonnie Ray was crouched in the window. Another possibility is that it was sawdust raised during the course of the morning's work cutting plywood.

In any case, there is nothing that even actually suggests that it came to rest on BRW's hair during or after the shooting other than the fact that that's when someone noticed it. When one parses the amount of time that BRW was actually around Hank and Junior prior to the shooting - two, possibly three minutes, just before the parade came into sight, excitement abounding - there really was neither time nor cause to have noticed it any sooner: it was probably only after the shooting that the other two even paid any real attention to him other than maybe to say "hi" and turn back to the windows in anticipation of JFK's arrival, which both Hank and Junior knew to be imminent.

If we presume that the "white stuff" on BRW's head was there prior to his arrival at the window - that is, while he was still on the sixth floor - can we then postulate that Bonnie Ray may have been the "elderly Negro" seen by Arnold Rowland in the SE sixth floor window? While Bonnie Ray (see below; that's Bonnie Ray under the arrow, Danny Arce behind him; I don't know who it is at the far left of the photo, does anyone?) would not normally be a candidate to be called "elderly," if you consider Rowland's distance from the sixth floor window, plus the fact that it was darker inside the building than out, Bonnie Ray's clear complexion might not have been so evident. The whiteness of whatever was in his hair might have stood out, though, leading to the impression that the man was elderly. This possibility eluded the WC, who sought only to show that Eddie Piper and Troy West - the only two black men in the building who could've been deemed "elderly" tho' they were only in their mid-50s - were not and could not have been on the sixth floor.

What's more intriguing, however, is the fact that Amos Euins - a 14-year-old black boy who'd seen a "pipe thing" in the window as JFK arrived and watched it fire at least twice as the President passed - said that the man he'd seen shooting the gun had "a white spot in his hair." He did not say that the man was white, nor that he was bald (despite what was recorded in his statement ... which goes a long way in telling us that initial reports, written by others, are not always the "best evidence" of what someone saw).

In his WC testimony, given before the Commission itself in Washington DC (undoubtedly daunting to any 14-year-old, enough so not to lie repeatedly with a straight face!), he was adamant that he did not tell the deputy who took his statement that the man was white or that the man was bald, but only that the man had a white spot in his hair.

So we have Bonnie Ray on the fifth floor, having just come down from the sixth floor, with white stuff in his hair ... and we have an "elderly Negro" seen through the sixth floor window (a man with "white hair?"), AND a man with a "pipe thing" in the sixth floor window also with a "white spot" in his hair.

Is it then a reasonable question to ask where all this white stuff actually came from? Damned sure it didn't fall on someone's hair on the sixth floor from the fifth floor ceiling!

I just want to know how someone going at any speed can go from point "a" to point "b" without being seen by someone who testified to standing at point "X" on this image:
I for one will be looking forward to Duke's OPUS on this topic.

Said "opus" already exceeds 40 pages, absent cites, and is only about 2/3 completed. Tentatively "The Great Elevator Shuffle, the Three Blind Mice and the Invisible Man." Watch your email for a draft of parts one and two.

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I think this is such a great question because it cuts to the chase, as even if one gunman, Lee Harvey Oswald did everything he is supposed to have done, it was still a conspiracy if he was a covert operative, professional assassin on assignment.

More likely, he was a professional patsy.

BK

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I think this is such a great question because it cuts to the chase, as even if one gunman, Lee Harvey Oswald did everything he is supposed to have done, it was still a conspiracy if he was a covert operative, professional assassin on assignment.

More likely, he was a professional patsy.

BK

1. LHO was engaged in conspiratorial (semi-covert/often overt) activities which placed him on both sides of the Castro fence.

2. LHO made contact with persons; organizations; etc; which no normal person would have known of and/or how to make contact. Therefore clearly demonstrating that someone was at minimum, feeding him information.

3. LHO intentionally went out of his way to "stage" the FPCC episode encounter in New Orleans, in order to be noticed.

4. After return from Mexico, LHO's extra-curricular activities completely ceased and he went "underground"/aka went in to hiding by living under a false name, and his overt activities ceased.

Whatever conspiracy LHO was engaged in prior to Mexico was not that of a "Lone Nut".

It was the orchestrated plans, with support, to apparantly get LHO into position to assassinate Fidel Castro.

This was a complete covert operation on the part of some entity which was utilizing LHO.

When LHO was denied his primary target (& most probably his "bonus"), all activities directed at Castro/Cuba ceased and LHO directed those activities towards Dallas, TX and JFK.

Whether LHO became a "Lone Nut" who of his own volition turned his dis-satisfaction against JFK, or whether the target was officiallly changed to JFK, will most likely now never be fully known.

Therein lies the major crimes of the WC/aka Specter; Hoover: & Company.

One can not train a fighting pit bull dog and then because they no longer want it, throw it into a playground of children and thereafter disavow any responsibility for it's actions.

LHO most assuredly was not a "patsy"!

He was either a complete accomplice; a knowledgeable accomplice; or the lone shooter.

As it will never determine exactly who pulled the final trigger, history needs to locate and identify those persons/entities who were behind the initial actions of LHO, and which ultimately lead to the assassination of JFK.

Which, due to the WC, will most likely never be factually determined.

Which places the word "TREASON" alongside the names of those who, for whatever reason, were a participant in the lies of the WC.

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One can not train a fighting pit bull dog and then because they no longer want it, throw it into a playground of children and thereafter disavow any responsibility for it's actions.

LHO most assuredly was not a "patsy"!

He was either a complete accomplice; a knowledgeable accomplice; or the lone shooter.

There is a further possibility which is that Oswald was an MK-ULTRA test subject, programmed through covert techniques (some combination of narcotics, hypnosis, pain, electroshock etc) to perform a certain action upon being triggered by his handler.

There is considerable evidence that Sirhan Sirhan had been programmed in this manner. However, with Sirhan allegedly in some sort of trance state at the time of RFK's assassination, and clear indications of other assassins being involved, the question arises whether MK-ULTRA, in practice, produced mechanical assassins or perfect patsies?

Whichever, if Oswald had been programmed as an assassin, and the JMWAVE operation knew of this, then Oswald provided them with someone who could be in the "right place at the right time" to take the blame. Crucially, if LHO was an MK-ULTRA test subject, then institutionally the CIA & the American government would have had to cover up the whole affair, and any CIA faction which had used LHO would have reaped the benefits of this closing of ranks. This theory has been explored by Frank Camper in his book "The MK/ULTRA Secret".

Peter Levenda, citing MK-ULTRA historians John Marks & Gordon Thomas, relates the following events in the immediate aftermath of the JFK assassination:

At the same moment, a few hundred miles to the north in Montreal, Dr James Monroe was paying a visit to Dr Ewen Cameron at the Allen Memorial Clinic. A former US Air Force officer and MK-ULTRA project leader in brainwashing studies, Monroe was in charge of the funds of the Human Ecology Society, which served as the Cameron project's front. As the airwaves broadcast the news of the assassination of President Kennedy at the Clinic, Monroe stopped and made a phone call to Washington. When he returned, he told Cameron that CIA sponsorship of the program was terminated. The reader does not need to be advised that this was a strange and compelling combination of events, indicative of a deeply sinister agenda.

(p288, Sinister Forces, Vol 1, Levenda)

It is indeed "a strange and compelling combination of events".

There is a further possibility which is that Oswald was an MK-ULTRA test subject, programmed through covert techniques (some combination of narcotics, hypnosis, pain, electroshock etc) to perform a certain action upon being triggered by his handler.

Which also rates up there with:

The Oswald Family was originally from south Mississippi.

LHO served in the USMC at Keesler AFB, Biloxi, MS.

During the period of this service, LHO's distant cousin, (now Judge) Robert Oswald of Pascagoula, MS was involved with the White Citizens's Council in keeing the MS Gulf Coast beaches completely integrated.

LHO visited his distant cousin in Pascagoula, MS.

http://www.ufocasebook.com/Pascagoula.html

LHO became the FIRST Pascagoula UFO kidnapping in which Space Aliens programmed him to kill upon command!

They had LHO shoot JFK due to his efforts to increase space traffic which would ultimately result in their exposure.

-----------------------------------------------------

Wanna bet that one could easily get a "following" to believe that one as well?

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Guest David Guyatt

It is becoming increasingly evident that UFO's and little green or "grey" aliens has been used - at the very least - as a convenient cloak behind which to hide technological advances in the aerospace sector, as well as, in all probability, a plethora of other unpleasant covert operations.

FOIA documents I saw many years ago (from memory they were USAF) advanced a plan to initiate a first nuclear strike against the Soviet Union behind the cloak of a "UFO flap".

Certainly, one would have to be very pally indeed with aliens to order up a ufo flap of that complexity and sophistication on demand... Occum's razor suggests a more prosaic answer to the Joint Chief's dilemma of how to bomb the heck out of them thar commies without receiving a retaliatory salvo of incoming

I can well see how MK-ULTRA fits right in to JFK assassination as part of the aim of this umbrella programme was the creation of a programmed killer, a "Manchurian candidate".

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I think this is such a great question because it cuts to the chase, as even if one gunman, Lee Harvey Oswald did everything he is supposed to have done, it was still a conspiracy if he was a covert operative, professional assassin on assignment.

More likely, he was a professional patsy.

BK

1. LHO was engaged in conspiratorial (semi-covert/often overt) activities which placed him on both sides of the Castro fence.

2. LHO made contact with persons; organizations; etc; which no normal person would have known of and/or how to make contact. Therefore clearly demonstrating that someone was at minimum, feeding him information.

3. LHO intentionally went out of his way to "stage" the FPCC episode encounter in New Orleans, in order to be noticed.

4. After return from Mexico, LHO's extra-curricular activities completely ceased and he went "underground"/aka went in to hiding by living under a false name, and his overt activities ceased.

Whatever conspiracy LHO was engaged in prior to Mexico was not that of a "Lone Nut".

It was the orchestrated plans, with support, to apparantly get LHO into position to assassinate Fidel Castro.

This was a complete covert operation on the part of some entity which was utilizing LHO.

When LHO was denied his primary target (& most probably his "bonus"), all activities directed at Castro/Cuba ceased and LHO directed those activities towards Dallas, TX and JFK.

Whether LHO became a "Lone Nut" who of his own volition turned his dis-satisfaction against JFK, or whether the target was officiallly changed to JFK, will most likely now never be fully known.

Therein lies the major crimes of the WC/aka Specter; Hoover: & Company.

One can not train a fighting pit bull dog and then because they no longer want it, throw it into a playground of children and thereafter disavow any responsibility for it's actions.

LHO most assuredly was not a "patsy"!

He was either a complete accomplice; a knowledgeable accomplice; or the lone shooter.

As it will never determine exactly who pulled the final trigger, history needs to locate and identify those persons/entities who were behind the initial actions of LHO, and which ultimately lead to the assassination of JFK.

Which, due to the WC, will most likely never be factually determined.

Which places the word "TREASON" alongside the names of those who, for whatever reason, were a participant in the lies of the WC.

"WILL MOST LIKELY NOW NEVER BE KNOWN"

"AS IT WILL NEVER (BE) DETERMINED EXACTLY WHO PULLED THE FINAL TRIGGER"

"WILL MOST LIKELY NEVER BE FACTUALLY DETERMINED"

While I agree with many of your assertions, whenever someone says we will probably never know, I must call them out on it.

I believe we are closer to the total truth than ever before and only have to put a few more pieces to the puzzle, which can be achieved with Congressonal Oversight Hearings of the JFK Act and a Grand Jury investigation.

To those who keep harping on the idea that "we'll never know," I give you John Judge:

"...The reason it struck a nerve is that this is the hidden secret in the American psyche since that day, November 22, '63, the American public have known, and I would contend have been told over and over, that there was a conspiracy to kill the President of the United States, the people who did it got away with it, and that we can't touch them...."

American University Symposium on Politics and Film, (circa 1992)

To know that is to know enough.

BK

Edited by William Kelly
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I think this is such a great question because it cuts to the chase, as even if one gunman, Lee Harvey Oswald did everything he is supposed to have done, it was still a conspiracy if he was a covert operative, professional assassin on assignment.

More likely, he was a professional patsy.

BK

1. LHO was engaged in conspiratorial (semi-covert/often overt) activities which placed him on both sides of the Castro fence.

2. LHO made contact with persons; organizations; etc; which no normal person would have known of and/or how to make contact. Therefore clearly demonstrating that someone was at minimum, feeding him information.

3. LHO intentionally went out of his way to "stage" the FPCC episode encounter in New Orleans, in order to be noticed.

4. After return from Mexico, LHO's extra-curricular activities completely ceased and he went "underground"/aka went in to hiding by living under a false name, and his overt activities ceased.

Whatever conspiracy LHO was engaged in prior to Mexico was not that of a "Lone Nut".

It was the orchestrated plans, with support, to apparantly get LHO into position to assassinate Fidel Castro.

This was a complete covert operation on the part of some entity which was utilizing LHO.

When LHO was denied his primary target (& most probably his "bonus"), all activities directed at Castro/Cuba ceased and LHO directed those activities towards Dallas, TX and JFK.

Whether LHO became a "Lone Nut" who of his own volition turned his dis-satisfaction against JFK, or whether the target was officiallly changed to JFK, will most likely now never be fully known.

Therein lies the major crimes of the WC/aka Specter; Hoover: & Company.

One can not train a fighting pit bull dog and then because they no longer want it, throw it into a playground of children and thereafter disavow any responsibility for it's actions.

LHO most assuredly was not a "patsy"!

He was either a complete accomplice; a knowledgeable accomplice; or the lone shooter.

As it will never determine exactly who pulled the final trigger, history needs to locate and identify those persons/entities who were behind the initial actions of LHO, and which ultimately lead to the assassination of JFK.

Which, due to the WC, will most likely never be factually determined.

Which places the word "TREASON" alongside the names of those who, for whatever reason, were a participant in the lies of the WC.

"WILL MOST LIKELY NOW NEVER BE KNOWN"

"AS IT WILL NEVER (BE) DETERMINED EXACTLY WHO PULLED THE FINAL TRIGGER"

"WILL MOST LIKELY NEVER BE FACTUALLY DETERMINED"

While I agree with many of your assertions, whenever someone says we will probably never know, I must call them out on it.

I believe we are closer to the total truth than ever before and only have to put a few more pieces to the puzzle, which can be achieved with Congressonal Oversight Hearings of the JFK Act and a Grand Jury investigation.

To those who keep harping on the idea that "we'll never know," I give you John Judge:

"...The reason it struck a nerve is that this is the hidden secret in the American psyche since that day, November 22, '63, the American public have known, and I would contend have been told over and over, that there was a conspiracy to kill the President of the United States, the people who did it got away with it, and that we can't touch them...."

American University Symposium on Politics and Film, (circa 1992)

To know that is to know enough.

BK

While I agree with many of your assertions, whenever someone says we will probably never know, I must call them out on it.

Well, I would suppose that we could continue to take the word of fortune tellers and other mystics who can, or claim to be able to speak with the dead.

However, last time that I checked, the great majority of those who may have been involved, in virtually any aspect, were all dead from natural or other causes.

And, since virtually anyone can make up some story about what someone else (who is deceased) supposedly stated, as well as phony up any amount of documents, etc;, then I personally will stick with the unliklihood that we will ever factually know exactly who was behind the actions of LHO as well as what role LHO actually played.

To include the part of Jack Rudy and his "patriotic" dispensing with LHO.

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While I agree with many of your assertions, whenever someone says we will probably never know, I must call them out on it.

Well, I would suppose that we could continue to take the word of fortune tellers and other mystics who can, or claim to be able to speak with the dead.

How about taking the word of a Philosopher, who says that the truth will be found IF INQUIRY CONTINUES LONG ENOUGH, and that those who say we will never know the truth are those who seek to block the road of inquiry

http://books.google.com/books?id=jaVi8RVlD...result#PPA30,M1

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While I agree with many of your assertions, whenever someone says we will probably never know, I must call them out on it.

Well, I would suppose that we could continue to take the word of fortune tellers and other mystics who can, or claim to be able to speak with the dead.

How about taking the word of a Philosopher, who says that the truth will be found IF INQUIRY CONTINUES LONG ENOUGH, and that those who say we will never know the truth are those who seek to block the road of inquiry

http://books.google.com/books?id=jaVi8RVlD...result#PPA30,M1

[b]How about taking the word of a Philosopher, who says that the truth will be found IF INQUIRY CONTINUES LONG ENOUGH, and that those who say we will never know the truth are those who seek to block the road of inquiry[/b]

Philosophically, to an idealist, Pure Socialism is a wonderful form of control as well as care for the populace.

To a Philosopical Realist, it sucks, in addition I might add that it don't work!

and that those who say we will never know the truth are those who seek to block the road of inquiry

Yep! I only signed on to further confuse you with the facts and truths!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy

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