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'John Simkin' post='4103' date='Apr 24 2004,[/b] 08:57 AM']Karyn Kupcinet is another whose death has been linked to the Kennedy assassination. I am not convinced but it is an interesting story.

Irv Kupcinet was a well-known journalist and television talk show host. He knew Jack Ruby in Chicago in the 1940s. According to W. Penn Jones (Forgive My Grief, 1966) Kupcinet kept in contact with Ruby and discovered that he was involved in a plot to assassinate President John F. Kennedy. Jones argues that Kupcinet passed this information on to his daughter Karyn. In his book, Forgive My Grief, Jones reports that "a few days before the assassination, Karyn Kupcinet, 23, was trying to place a long distance telephone call from the Los Angeles area. According to reports, the long distance operator heard Miss Kupcinet scream into the telephone that President Kennedy was going to be killed."

Karyn Kupcinet's body was discovered on 30th November, 1963. Police estimated that she had been dead for two days. The New York Times reported that she had been strangled. Her actor boyfriend, Andrew Prine was the main suspect but he was never charged with the murder and the crime remains unsolved.

Some researchers have claimed that there was a strong link between the death of Kupcinet and the assassination of John F. Kennedy. It was argued that the conspirators were trying to frighten Kupcinet from telling what he knew. Irv Kupcinet rejected this idea. He wrote in the Chicago Sun-Times (9th November, 1992): "The NBC Today Show on Friday carried a list of people who died violently in 1963 shortly after the death of President John F. Kennedy and may have had some link to the assassination. The first name on the list was Karyn Kupcinet, my daughter. That is an atrocious outrage. She did die violently in a Hollywood murder case still unsolved. That same list was published in a book years ago with no justification or verification. The book left the impression that some on the list may have been killed to silence them because of knowledge of the assassination. Nothing could be further from the truth in my daughter's case."

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKkupcinet.htm

Karyn Kupcinet

John, Penn Johes Jr was on Kup's Show circa 1966. It must have been here that he learned of the Kupcinet's murdered daughter. He said nothing about it on Kup's Show. I never read any of his books. They are hard to come by and too expensive for me. Someone told me that Penn Jones Jr was often misquoted on the Internet. I wouldn't know. But this business is in Book II of Forgive My Grief.

There was a story that circulated widely in newspapers the day after President Kennedy was killed. A distraught woman, trying to make a person-to-person call to Chicago, screamed into the phone and whispered into the phone that "They're going to kill the President." Twenty minutes later, Kennedy was shot. The supervisor of the operators reported this to the police. I've read that the call came from a law office in Oxnard, CA. But Penn Jones apparently believed this could have been Karyn Kupcinet. In my opinion, it wasn't. And I don't think she had any foreknowledge.

Karyn was murdered by the shutting off of her left carotid artery. This matches the coronor's cause of death -- that a strong man attacked her from behind and strangled her with only one hand -- his left. The coronor found much trauma to the left side of her neck. There's a specific headlock that will do this. She wasn't found for 3 days. She had a copious leukerrhea substance inside her vagina. When they tried to examine it, it had decomposed. They weren't sure what it was. Her apartment looked ransacked and only a great quantity of her Desoxyn - Methamphetamine - pills were missing.

She was found dead by her friends, Mark and Marcia Goddard. Mark starred in Lost in Space. Mark believed she killed herself. She had told people that she was going to Glenn Ford's house for Thanksgiving with Andrew Prine. Instead she was murdered on Thanksgiving and Prine said he never had any intention of taking her to Ford's house.

There are several suspects and as many theories. At this point, in my own mind, I am not sure she was killed because her father was investigating the Chicago angle to the Assassination. But I do believe she was murdered. It's a mystery and I keep exploring it. If she was killed to hurt Kup, no one could do a better job. Irv Kupcinet was a Zionist. And he was interested in the Ruby angle. It seems people who had anything to do with Ruby were often murdered.

Read more at 'groups.yahoo.com/group/Karyn_Kupcinet'

and 'thecloakofdarkness.blogspot.com' present page and in the archives

Kathy

*********************************************************

'thecloakofdarkness.blogspot.com'

John Simkin

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Find Member's Posts Jan 19 2006, 08:38 AM Post #47

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Sunday, December 11, 2005

Karyn Kupcinet and the Bobby Baker Scandal

The Kennedy Assassination for Lay People #3

John Simkin, a JFK assassination researcher, is trying to connect the murder of Karyn Kupcinet, actress daughter of late columnist Irv Kupcinet, to the Bobby Baker scandal.

Bobby Baker started out as a page in the Senate, working for Lyndon Johnson. He was so loyal to LBJ, people often referred to him as "Little Lyndon." When Johnson became Vice President, Bobby Baker stayed on with him as his secretary. Bobby Baker considered himself a wheeler dealer and was often around the Senate making deals. Baker got involved with Giancana and Meyer Lansky, building casinos in the Dominican Republic, which would serve as the new "Cuba" for the Mob. Baker then got involved in the Quorum Club, secretly owned by LBJ. Baker would procure women for big shots in Washington DC. J. Edgar Hoover later characterized some of these women as spies and had them deported.

LBJ had been receiving kickbacks from business contacts through Bobby Baker. The largest was the Fort Worth TFX contract to build a fighter plane for $7 million. Word circulated that Johnson, Vice President of the United States at the time, was going to be indicted. President Kennedy, it was rumored, was going to drop Lyndon from the ticket in 1964. Perhaps he would choose Senator George Smathers, who would become President Kennedy's "best friend," yet would say detrimental things about Kennedy's lifestyle after the Assassination, hurting Kennedy's memory. Don Reynolds, a man who put together Johnson's will and knew a lot about LBJ's finances, was testifying that he had seen a $100,000 payoff to Johnson over the TFX contract. Reynolds' testimony came to a halt that day when word came that President Kennedy had been assassinated.

LBJ began a smear campaign against Don Reynolds. Reynold's testimony would not be made public. In 1967 Bobby Baker was found guilty of 7 counts of theft, fraud and income tax evasion. The charges against him included Baker accepting huge campaign donations intended to buy influence with various Senators but which he kept for himself.

People in high financial and military places believed Kennedy was a communist. "Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country." This must have sounded like a Communist slogan to some. After the wealthy oil barons killed President Kennedy -- and Johnson knew it was going to happen and would benefit from it -- the country was not the same, nor ever will be. President Kennedy was assassinated for oil and big business; and so Lyndon Johnson could avoid indictment as President over a traumatized country which had just lost a charismatic President.

Back to Bobby Baker and Karyn Kupcinet. Baker, in his prime, had a house in SW Washington, DC. He held parties there in which he procured women for wealthy men. Nancy Carole Tyler, Bobby Baker's girlfriend, attended these parties frequently. Because she shared the house with Tyler, Mary Jo Kopechne was also, allegedly, at these functions. Mary Jo, who would be killed years later at a party at Chappaquiddick, had been in the same class as Karyn Kupcinet at Wellesley. Simkin is trying to place Karyn Kupcinet into one or more of these parties, claiming she learned something there that caused a hit man to murder her 5 days after the Assassination.

I had a hard time putting Karyn in Wash. D.C., except one time when she was eleven years old. Then I remembered Advise and Consent. Irv Kupcinet and Otto Preminger were good friends. Irv had one line in Preminger's film Advise and Consent (1962), filmed in Washington DC. Could Karyn have travelled to DC with her father so he could say his one line in the Preminger movie? Karyn, at least before she met Prine, was very social and had many friends. She wasn't a loner, though she suffered deep depressions. Would Karyn go to one of those parties?

She was certainly an out-of-towner. She probably wouldn't know ahead of time the nature of these parties. How much could Washington swing? How close was she to Kopechne? Karyn attended Wellesley, in the same class as Mary Jo, for only one semester. They knew her as Roberta Kupcinet there. In later years, obsessed with her weight, she told a reporter that she had gained so much poundage during those collegiate months that she was the original 5'x5' girl.

After leaving college, Karyn went on to New York. She auditioned for the Actor's Studio and Lee Strasberg accepted her, no easy feat. She was up for a part in a play in NY but didn't get the role and returned rejected to Chicago to her parent's house. Their decades-long maid said Karyn's mother, Essee, yelled at Karyn for having gained weight. Karyn took amphetamines and her mother looked the other way.

Another coincidence: When Karyn filmed The Ladies Man (1961) with Jerry Lewis, Jerry was having an affair with Judith Campbell (Exner). She was on the set everyday and like Karyn, she came from Chicago. I know at one time the two of them lived in walking distance to each other. Had they become friends?

Simkin also says that Irv Kupcinet and Jack Ruby were close friends. They were not, though both men had things in common during their youth in Chicago. Kupcinet was acquainted with Ruby and called up a mutual friend, Paul Dorfman (Mob connected), asking him questions about Ruby. This call came so quick, Dorfman didn't even know Oswald had been shot. "'Sparky' would never do that," he said. As Irv dug into the Chicago angle of the Assassination in the week to come, his daughter lay dead in her L.A. apartment.

She had been dead 3 days before anyone found her. The autopsy said a very strong left-handded man had strangled her from behind. He broke her hyoid bone. She was found face down on her sofa. In my opinion, shortly after 2 male friends left her apartment, she was murdered by a hit man who killed her with a karate chop to the neck. A reporter, Jim Koethe, who had been in a meeting in Ruby's apartment the night Ruby shot Oswald, was murdered a few months later with a karate chop to the neck. Is this a coincidence, or a Ruby connection to Kupcinet's murder and Koethe's? Her male friends would be the suspects. Also her ex-boyfriend. And the guy downstairs from her. All these men were polygraphed and all their test results came out "inconclusive." The guys either had bad alibis or no alibis at all. Walter Winchell, down on his luck, told Irv Kupcinet that he was going to solve the murder and win a Pulitzer Prize doing so. The police felt he hampered the investigation. Winchell wrote up his report. All I know is he mentioned "The Syndicate." Is that the same as the Mafia? Like Sam Giancana? Could Winchell have been onto something?

I don't know if Karyn Kupcinet ever attended Bobby Baker's parties. But it is strange that Nancy Carole Tyler, who lived in Baker's house, Mary Jo Kopechne and Karyn Kupcinet all met early tragic ends after the Assassination. And Judith Campbell Exner feared for her life from Kennedy's death onward.

I still believe that Karyn had no foreknowledge of the Assassination and was killed to send Irv Kupcinet, her father, a warning to cease investigating the Assassination. I'm told, which I have not verified yet, that Irv never wrote about the Assassination again until the movie JFK came out. Irv maintained that Oswald shot President Kennedy... The early script of Stone's movie had a Karyn Kupcinet character. One is allowed to say anything about someone who has died. And this infuriated Kupcinet. He denounced the movie. Oliver Stone chose to use the Rose Cheramie character instead to illustrate foreknowledge and conspiracy. To use Karyn Kupcinet would only be speculation. The L.A. Sheriff's Dept has not solved the case. She went from L.A. to Palm Springs the day Kennedy was shot. She cannot be placed in Oxnard, CA that day, where an upset woman tried to make a person-to-person call to Chicago, got onto the operator's line and said, "They're going to kill the President" 20 minutes before he was shot. This was reported to the FBI and the story appeared in many newspapers around the US the next day. The real woman supposedly made the call from a law practice in Oxnard, and her name was revealed to Robert Kennedy on the day he was shot.

My bibliography for the above info includes: John Simkins' forum on the Kennedy Assassiation; The Men Who Killed Kennedy, a series of documentaries made by Nigel Turner; Farewell America; LBJ's mistress, Madeleine Duncan Brown, as interviewed by Nigel Turner; Chicago Magazine , "The Lost World of Kup," June 2004; The True Hollywood Story on Karyn Kupcinet; King of Comedy by Shawn Levy; John Austin in private letter; The Ruby Cover-Up by Seth Kantor; Kup: A Man, an Era, a City by Irv Kupcinet; Crime Wave by James Ellroy -- "The Glamour Jungle," GQ, December 1998; Winchell: Gossip, Power and the Culture of Celebrity by Neal Gabler; Judith Campbell Exner - television interview before she died where she said, "I was in love with that man. What more does that family want from me?"; the IMDb - Internet Movie Database; Irv Kupcinet's columns re Oliver Stone's JFK; McAdam's JFK Assassination site; and my own conjecture.

=====================================================

It is nice to know that people are using the Forum for research. However, I am surprised that the "Cloak of Darkness" did not look at my web pages on these people. He would have discovered the sources for my views on the deaths of these three women. He says I claimed that Irv Kupcinet was a close friend of Jack Ruby. Did I? What I did say was that Irv Kupcinet got to know Jack Ruby in Chicago in the 1940s. According to W. Penn Jones he kept in contact with Ruby (he supplied Kupcinet with information about the Mafia, etc.). Penn Jones claimed that Kupcinet discovered that Ruby was involved in a plot to assassinate Kennedy. Jones argues that Irv passed this information on to his daughter Karyn.

In his book, Forgive My Grief, Jones suggests that Karyn might have supplied her father with information about the assassination. He argues that "a few days before the assassination, Karyn Kupcinet, 23, was trying to place a long distance telephone call from the Los Angeles area. According to reports, the long distance operator heard Miss Kupcinet scream into the telephone that President Kennedy was going to be killed."

Karyn Kupcinet's body was discovered on 30th November, 1963. Police estimated that she had been dead for two days. The New York Times reported that she had been strangled. Her actor boyfriend, Andrew Prine was the main suspect but he was never charged with the murder and the crime remains unsolved.

Some researchers have claimed that there was a link between the death of Kupcinet and the assassination of Kennedy. It was argued that the conspirators were trying to frighten off Kupcinet from telling what he knew. Kupcinet rejected this idea. He wrote in the Chicago Sun-Times (9th November, 1992): "The NBC Today Show on Friday carried a list of people who died violently in 1963 shortly after the death of President John F. Kennedy and may have had some link to the assassination. The first name on the list was Karyn Kupcinet, my daughter. That is an atrocious outrage. She did die violently in a Hollywood murder case still unsolved. That same list was published in a book years ago with no justification or verification. The book left the impression that some on the list may have been killed to silence them because of knowledge of the assassination. Nothing could be further from the truth in my daughter's case."

Was he telling the truth or was he protecting the lives of other members of the family?

It has to be remembered that another journalist claimed that his daughter's murder had nothing to do with the assassination of JFK. According to Lee Israel (Kilgallen: An Intimate Biography) James Kilgallen, a famous investigative journalist, was quick to announce that his daughter's death had nothing to do with the JFK case.

==================================================

'thecloakofdarkness.blogspot.com'

"In later years, obsessed with her weight, she told a reporter that she had gained so much poundage during those collegiate months that she was the original 5'x5' girl.

After leaving college, Karyn went on to New York. She auditioned for the Actor's Studio and Lee Strasberg accepted her, no easy feat. She was up for a part in a play in NY but didn't get the role and returned rejected to Chicago to her parent's house. Their decades-long maid said Karyn's mother, Essee, yelled at Karyn for having gained weight. Karyn took amphetamines and her mother looked the other way."

What does this information have to do with furthering the investigation of the assassination of JFK?

"I still believe that Karyn had no foreknowledge of the Assassination and was killed to send Irv Kupcinet, her father, a warning to cease investigating the Assassination. I'm told, which I have not verified yet, that Irv never wrote about the Assassination again until the movie JFK came out. Irv maintained that Oswald shot President Kennedy... The early script of Stone's movie had a Karyn Kupcinet character. One is allowed to say anything about someone who has died. And this infuriated Kupcinet. He denounced the movie. Oliver Stone chose to use the Rose Cheramie character instead to illustrate foreknowledge and conspiracy. To use Karyn Kupcinet would only be speculation. The L.A. Sheriff's Dept has not solved the case. She went from L.A. to Palm Springs the day Kennedy was shot. She cannot be placed in Oxnard, CA that day, where an upset woman tried to make a person-to-person call to Chicago, got onto the operator's line and said, "They're going to kill the President" 20 minutes before he was shot. This was reported to the FBI and the story appeared in many newspapers around the US the next day. The real woman supposedly made the call from a law practice in Oxnard, and her name was revealed to Robert Kennedy on the day he was shot."

I bet Kupcinet really loved your take on this.

On the day, who was shot? JFK or RFK.

"Crime Wave by James Ellroy -- "The Glamour Jungle," GQ, December 1998; Winchell: Gossip, Power and the Culture of Celebrity by Neal Gabler; Judith Campbell Exner - television interview before she died where she said, "I was in love with that man. What more does that family want from me?"; the IMDb - Internet Movie Database; Irv Kupcinet's columns re Oliver Stone's JFK; McAdam's JFK Assassination site; and my own conjecture."

To be sure.

"She was definitely murdered, although crime writer, James Ellroy, said she must have been dancing nude like a wood nymph to free her inhibitions. Actors are always trying to free their inhibitions. She had a book somewhere in the house opened to a page that said that. And then she supposedly fell and hit her neck on the corner of the coffee table, crawled up onto the sofa and died."

Pure speculation

And then, maybe it was suicide or she died like Anna Nicole with so many different prescription drugs in her. She was decomposed and they couldn't trace how many drugs she had in her. But I still believe she was murdered. Was she such a bad housekeeper that she left closet doors open, drawers with their contents trailing on the floor, bed clothes pulled halfway off the bed, revealing 2 twin beds pushed together;and 100 methamphetamines missing?

You're grasping at straws.

There are several suspects. One of them, David Lange, died last year. No deathbed confession. And her ex-boyfriend, Andrew Prine, looks terribly ill. He's about 71 now. He has his own website, a pathetic attempt at trying to get an acting job when he looks and sounds like walking death. Plus she had 2 male visitors earlier that night whom she didn't know well. And everyone of these suspects had lousy alibis."

So what? Who cares? And, how do you expect you're going to look when you're 71. His career was most likely ruined from being associated with this whole bloody mess. You sound almost ecstatic. Karyn and her old man are probably rolling over in their graves with the way you've been ragging her.

Don't you have anything positive or nice to say about someone who's not here to defend themselves? It's as if you glory in airing their dirty laundry, and any little insignificant tidbit of slander you may be able to glean from their "supposedly" sordid pasts. What purpose does it serve? To make you feel better about yourself?

Was Walter Winchell your idol, or your mentor? Because you sure sound like a cheap imitation of him, Ms. Cloak of Darkness blogspot.com. You sure get off on throwing your website around here, for someone who can't seem to get their story straight.

And, while it's still fresh in my mind, DO NOT EVER, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, CONTACT ME AGAIN VIA MY E-MAIL ADDRESS! Especially, since I haven't set out to attack you in any recent memory that I can recall.

My apologies to John Geraghty, Kathy Beckett, Evan Marshall, Simkin, Walker, et. al.

Terry, John Simkin brought up the subject of Karyn Kupcinet. That's how it's relevant.

How can you say I'm ecstatic talking about her death and Andrew Prine getting old? Karyn means a lot to me. A lot. And it goes back decades. I contribute to her Yahoo group. No, I don't think Irv would have liked my focusing on the Assassination. He believed that she was murdered by someone in her circle, namely David Lange who's past on. By the way, Kari Kupcinet, Karyn's niece, knows I'm on her Yahoo group. The man who is writing a book about Karyn is grateful for my time and my posts and theories.

Re Walter Winchell: He's a little bit before my time. My mother used to read his columns. Winchell went out to L.A. to investigate the murder. He didn't succeed. He actually told Irv he was going to win a Pulitzer Prize doing it. Didn't happen.

It was Dorothy Kilgallen I admired. I believe it was she who reported that someone in Karyn's circle killed her and that it was a married man. I have no idea who that is. But Kilgallen was a smart woman and my family always thought there was something fishy about her death. I recommend you read Lee Israel's book on Dorothy.

If I'm a little dark, Terry, God made me that way. And, tell me, isn't the Assassination of John Kennedy dark in and of itself? Sensationalism? What about publishing gory autopsy photos for the public to see? That's so dark it's soot! When you point the finger at someone else, Terry, remember, 3 of your fingers are pointing back at you. And another old adage: It takes one to know one.

Kathy

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Well... I presented a list of suspicious deaths surrounding President Kennedy's murder and asked for input. The list excluded Karyn Kupcinet, because I'm unconvinced about the story, but Kathy alertly called the omission to my attention and we were in the midst of discussing it.

Thank you for taking the time to review my list Kathy, I appreciate your input.

Sorry the subject upset you Terry; Kathy and I are brainstorming here. And brainstorming is, ideally, non-judgemental to encourage free exchange of ideas, which is what I hoped for when I revised this thread.

So let's continue to brainstorm. Oh, and if anyone knows the ages and exact dates of death for anyone on my list (for whom I don't already have that info, duh) then please let me know.

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'John Simkin' post='4103' date='Apr 24 2004,[/b] 08:57 AM']Karyn Kupcinet is another whose death has been linked to the Kennedy assassination. I am not convinced but it is an interesting story.

Irv Kupcinet was a well-known journalist and television talk show host. He knew Jack Ruby in Chicago in the 1940s. According to W. Penn Jones (Forgive My Grief, 1966) Kupcinet kept in contact with Ruby and discovered that he was involved in a plot to assassinate President John F. Kennedy. Jones argues that Kupcinet passed this information on to his daughter Karyn. In his book, Forgive My Grief, Jones reports that "a few days before the assassination, Karyn Kupcinet, 23, was trying to place a long distance telephone call from the Los Angeles area. According to reports, the long distance operator heard Miss Kupcinet scream into the telephone that President Kennedy was going to be killed."

Karyn Kupcinet's body was discovered on 30th November, 1963. Police estimated that she had been dead for two days. The New York Times reported that she had been strangled. Her actor boyfriend, Andrew Prine was the main suspect but he was never charged with the murder and the crime remains unsolved.

Some researchers have claimed that there was a strong link between the death of Kupcinet and the assassination of John F. Kennedy. It was argued that the conspirators were trying to frighten Kupcinet from telling what he knew. Irv Kupcinet rejected this idea. He wrote in the Chicago Sun-Times (9th November, 1992): "The NBC Today Show on Friday carried a list of people who died violently in 1963 shortly after the death of President John F. Kennedy and may have had some link to the assassination. The first name on the list was Karyn Kupcinet, my daughter. That is an atrocious outrage. She did die violently in a Hollywood murder case still unsolved. That same list was published in a book years ago with no justification or verification. The book left the impression that some on the list may have been killed to silence them because of knowledge of the assassination. Nothing could be further from the truth in my daughter's case."

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKkupcinet.htm

Karyn Kupcinet

John, Penn Johes Jr was on Kup's Show circa 1966. It must have been here that he learned of the Kupcinet's murdered daughter. He said nothing about it on Kup's Show. I never read any of his books. They are hard to come by and too expensive for me. Someone told me that Penn Jones Jr was often misquoted on the Internet. I wouldn't know. But this business is in Book II of Forgive My Grief.

There was a story that circulated widely in newspapers the day after President Kennedy was killed. A distraught woman, trying to make a person-to-person call to Chicago, screamed into the phone and whispered into the phone that "They're going to kill the President." Twenty minutes later, Kennedy was shot. The supervisor of the operators reported this to the police. I've read that the call came from a law office in Oxnard, CA. But Penn Jones apparently believed this could have been Karyn Kupcinet. In my opinion, it wasn't. And I don't think she had any foreknowledge.

Karyn was murdered by the shutting off of her left carotid artery. This matches the coronor's cause of death -- that a strong man attacked her from behind and strangled her with only one hand -- his left. The coronor found much trauma to the left side of her neck. There's a specific headlock that will do this. She wasn't found for 3 days. She had a copious leukerrhea substance inside her vagina. When they tried to examine it, it had decomposed. They weren't sure what it was. Her apartment looked ransacked and only a great quantity of her Desoxyn - Methamphetamine - pills were missing.

She was found dead by her friends, Mark and Marcia Goddard. Mark starred in Lost in Space. Mark believed she killed herself. She had told people that she was going to Glenn Ford's house for Thanksgiving with Andrew Prine. Instead she was murdered on Thanksgiving and Prine said he never had any intention of taking her to Ford's house.

There are several suspects and as many theories. At this point, in my own mind, I am not sure she was killed because her father was investigating the Chicago angle to the Assassination. But I do believe she was murdered. It's a mystery and I keep exploring it. If she was killed to hurt Kup, no one could do a better job. Irv Kupcinet was a Zionist. And he was interested in the Ruby angle. It seems people who had anything to do with Ruby were often murdered.

Read more at 'groups.yahoo.com/group/Karyn_Kupcinet'

and 'thecloakofdarkness.blogspot.com' present page and in the archives

Kathy

*********************************************************

'thecloakofdarkness.blogspot.com'

John Simkin

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Find Member's Posts Jan 19 2006, 08:38 AM Post #47

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Sunday, December 11, 2005

Karyn Kupcinet and the Bobby Baker Scandal

The Kennedy Assassination for Lay People #3

John Simkin, a JFK assassination researcher, is trying to connect the murder of Karyn Kupcinet, actress daughter of late columnist Irv Kupcinet, to the Bobby Baker scandal.

Bobby Baker started out as a page in the Senate, working for Lyndon Johnson. He was so loyal to LBJ, people often referred to him as "Little Lyndon." When Johnson became Vice President, Bobby Baker stayed on with him as his secretary. Bobby Baker considered himself a wheeler dealer and was often around the Senate making deals. Baker got involved with Giancana and Meyer Lansky, building casinos in the Dominican Republic, which would serve as the new "Cuba" for the Mob. Baker then got involved in the Quorum Club, secretly owned by LBJ. Baker would procure women for big shots in Washington DC. J. Edgar Hoover later characterized some of these women as spies and had them deported.

LBJ had been receiving kickbacks from business contacts through Bobby Baker. The largest was the Fort Worth TFX contract to build a fighter plane for $7 million. Word circulated that Johnson, Vice President of the United States at the time, was going to be indicted. President Kennedy, it was rumored, was going to drop Lyndon from the ticket in 1964. Perhaps he would choose Senator George Smathers, who would become President Kennedy's "best friend," yet would say detrimental things about Kennedy's lifestyle after the Assassination, hurting Kennedy's memory. Don Reynolds, a man who put together Johnson's will and knew a lot about LBJ's finances, was testifying that he had seen a $100,000 payoff to Johnson over the TFX contract. Reynolds' testimony came to a halt that day when word came that President Kennedy had been assassinated.

LBJ began a smear campaign against Don Reynolds. Reynold's testimony would not be made public. In 1967 Bobby Baker was found guilty of 7 counts of theft, fraud and income tax evasion. The charges against him included Baker accepting huge campaign donations intended to buy influence with various Senators but which he kept for himself.

People in high financial and military places believed Kennedy was a communist. "Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country." This must have sounded like a Communist slogan to some. After the wealthy oil barons killed President Kennedy -- and Johnson knew it was going to happen and would benefit from it -- the country was not the same, nor ever will be. President Kennedy was assassinated for oil and big business; and so Lyndon Johnson could avoid indictment as President over a traumatized country which had just lost a charismatic President.

Back to Bobby Baker and Karyn Kupcinet. Baker, in his prime, had a house in SW Washington, DC. He held parties there in which he procured women for wealthy men. Nancy Carole Tyler, Bobby Baker's girlfriend, attended these parties frequently. Because she shared the house with Tyler, Mary Jo Kopechne was also, allegedly, at these functions. Mary Jo, who would be killed years later at a party at Chappaquiddick, had been in the same class as Karyn Kupcinet at Wellesley. Simkin is trying to place Karyn Kupcinet into one or more of these parties, claiming she learned something there that caused a hit man to murder her 5 days after the Assassination.

I had a hard time putting Karyn in Wash. D.C., except one time when she was eleven years old. Then I remembered Advise and Consent. Irv Kupcinet and Otto Preminger were good friends. Irv had one line in Preminger's film Advise and Consent (1962), filmed in Washington DC. Could Karyn have travelled to DC with her father so he could say his one line in the Preminger movie? Karyn, at least before she met Prine, was very social and had many friends. She wasn't a loner, though she suffered deep depressions. Would Karyn go to one of those parties?

She was certainly an out-of-towner. She probably wouldn't know ahead of time the nature of these parties. How much could Washington swing? How close was she to Kopechne? Karyn attended Wellesley, in the same class as Mary Jo, for only one semester. They knew her as Roberta Kupcinet there. In later years, obsessed with her weight, she told a reporter that she had gained so much poundage during those collegiate months that she was the original 5'x5' girl.

After leaving college, Karyn went on to New York. She auditioned for the Actor's Studio and Lee Strasberg accepted her, no easy feat. She was up for a part in a play in NY but didn't get the role and returned rejected to Chicago to her parent's house. Their decades-long maid said Karyn's mother, Essee, yelled at Karyn for having gained weight. Karyn took amphetamines and her mother looked the other way.

Another coincidence: When Karyn filmed The Ladies Man (1961) with Jerry Lewis, Jerry was having an affair with Judith Campbell (Exner). She was on the set everyday and like Karyn, she came from Chicago. I know at one time the two of them lived in walking distance to each other. Had they become friends?

Simkin also says that Irv Kupcinet and Jack Ruby were close friends. They were not, though both men had things in common during their youth in Chicago. Kupcinet was acquainted with Ruby and called up a mutual friend, Paul Dorfman (Mob connected), asking him questions about Ruby. This call came so quick, Dorfman didn't even know Oswald had been shot. "'Sparky' would never do that," he said. As Irv dug into the Chicago angle of the Assassination in the week to come, his daughter lay dead in her L.A. apartment.

She had been dead 3 days before anyone found her. The autopsy said a very strong left-handded man had strangled her from behind. He broke her hyoid bone. She was found face down on her sofa. In my opinion, shortly after 2 male friends left her apartment, she was murdered by a hit man who killed her with a karate chop to the neck. A reporter, Jim Koethe, who had been in a meeting in Ruby's apartment the night Ruby shot Oswald, was murdered a few months later with a karate chop to the neck. Is this a coincidence, or a Ruby connection to Kupcinet's murder and Koethe's? Her male friends would be the suspects. Also her ex-boyfriend. And the guy downstairs from her. All these men were polygraphed and all their test results came out "inconclusive." The guys either had bad alibis or no alibis at all. Walter Winchell, down on his luck, told Irv Kupcinet that he was going to solve the murder and win a Pulitzer Prize doing so. The police felt he hampered the investigation. Winchell wrote up his report. All I know is he mentioned "The Syndicate." Is that the same as the Mafia? Like Sam Giancana? Could Winchell have been onto something?

I don't know if Karyn Kupcinet ever attended Bobby Baker's parties. But it is strange that Nancy Carole Tyler, who lived in Baker's house, Mary Jo Kopechne and Karyn Kupcinet all met early tragic ends after the Assassination. And Judith Campbell Exner feared for her life from Kennedy's death onward.

I still believe that Karyn had no foreknowledge of the Assassination and was killed to send Irv Kupcinet, her father, a warning to cease investigating the Assassination. I'm told, which I have not verified yet, that Irv never wrote about the Assassination again until the movie JFK came out. Irv maintained that Oswald shot President Kennedy... The early script of Stone's movie had a Karyn Kupcinet character. One is allowed to say anything about someone who has died. And this infuriated Kupcinet. He denounced the movie. Oliver Stone chose to use the Rose Cheramie character instead to illustrate foreknowledge and conspiracy. To use Karyn Kupcinet would only be speculation. The L.A. Sheriff's Dept has not solved the case. She went from L.A. to Palm Springs the day Kennedy was shot. She cannot be placed in Oxnard, CA that day, where an upset woman tried to make a person-to-person call to Chicago, got onto the operator's line and said, "They're going to kill the President" 20 minutes before he was shot. This was reported to the FBI and the story appeared in many newspapers around the US the next day. The real woman supposedly made the call from a law practice in Oxnard, and her name was revealed to Robert Kennedy on the day he was shot.

My bibliography for the above info includes: John Simkins' forum on the Kennedy Assassiation; The Men Who Killed Kennedy, a series of documentaries made by Nigel Turner; Farewell America; LBJ's mistress, Madeleine Duncan Brown, as interviewed by Nigel Turner; Chicago Magazine , "The Lost World of Kup," June 2004; The True Hollywood Story on Karyn Kupcinet; King of Comedy by Shawn Levy; John Austin in private letter; The Ruby Cover-Up by Seth Kantor; Kup: A Man, an Era, a City by Irv Kupcinet; Crime Wave by James Ellroy -- "The Glamour Jungle," GQ, December 1998; Winchell: Gossip, Power and the Culture of Celebrity by Neal Gabler; Judith Campbell Exner - television interview before she died where she said, "I was in love with that man. What more does that family want from me?"; the IMDb - Internet Movie Database; Irv Kupcinet's columns re Oliver Stone's JFK; McAdam's JFK Assassination site; and my own conjecture.

=====================================================

It is nice to know that people are using the Forum for research. However, I am surprised that the "Cloak of Darkness" did not look at my web pages on these people. He would have discovered the sources for my views on the deaths of these three women. He says I claimed that Irv Kupcinet was a close friend of Jack Ruby. Did I? What I did say was that Irv Kupcinet got to know Jack Ruby in Chicago in the 1940s. According to W. Penn Jones he kept in contact with Ruby (he supplied Kupcinet with information about the Mafia, etc.). Penn Jones claimed that Kupcinet discovered that Ruby was involved in a plot to assassinate Kennedy. Jones argues that Irv passed this information on to his daughter Karyn.

In his book, Forgive My Grief, Jones suggests that Karyn might have supplied her father with information about the assassination. He argues that "a few days before the assassination, Karyn Kupcinet, 23, was trying to place a long distance telephone call from the Los Angeles area. According to reports, the long distance operator heard Miss Kupcinet scream into the telephone that President Kennedy was going to be killed."

Karyn Kupcinet's body was discovered on 30th November, 1963. Police estimated that she had been dead for two days. The New York Times reported that she had been strangled. Her actor boyfriend, Andrew Prine was the main suspect but he was never charged with the murder and the crime remains unsolved.

Some researchers have claimed that there was a link between the death of Kupcinet and the assassination of Kennedy. It was argued that the conspirators were trying to frighten off Kupcinet from telling what he knew. Kupcinet rejected this idea. He wrote in the Chicago Sun-Times (9th November, 1992): "The NBC Today Show on Friday carried a list of people who died violently in 1963 shortly after the death of President John F. Kennedy and may have had some link to the assassination. The first name on the list was Karyn Kupcinet, my daughter. That is an atrocious outrage. She did die violently in a Hollywood murder case still unsolved. That same list was published in a book years ago with no justification or verification. The book left the impression that some on the list may have been killed to silence them because of knowledge of the assassination. Nothing could be further from the truth in my daughter's case."

Was he telling the truth or was he protecting the lives of other members of the family?

It has to be remembered that another journalist claimed that his daughter's murder had nothing to do with the assassination of JFK. According to Lee Israel (Kilgallen: An Intimate Biography) James Kilgallen, a famous investigative journalist, was quick to announce that his daughter's death had nothing to do with the JFK case.

==================================================

'thecloakofdarkness.blogspot.com'

"In later years, obsessed with her weight, she told a reporter that she had gained so much poundage during those collegiate months that she was the original 5'x5' girl.

After leaving college, Karyn went on to New York. She auditioned for the Actor's Studio and Lee Strasberg accepted her, no easy feat. She was up for a part in a play in NY but didn't get the role and returned rejected to Chicago to her parent's house. Their decades-long maid said Karyn's mother, Essee, yelled at Karyn for having gained weight. Karyn took amphetamines and her mother looked the other way."

What does this information have to do with furthering the investigation of the assassination of JFK?

"I still believe that Karyn had no foreknowledge of the Assassination and was killed to send Irv Kupcinet, her father, a warning to cease investigating the Assassination. I'm told, which I have not verified yet, that Irv never wrote about the Assassination again until the movie JFK came out. Irv maintained that Oswald shot President Kennedy... The early script of Stone's movie had a Karyn Kupcinet character. One is allowed to say anything about someone who has died. And this infuriated Kupcinet. He denounced the movie. Oliver Stone chose to use the Rose Cheramie character instead to illustrate foreknowledge and conspiracy. To use Karyn Kupcinet would only be speculation. The L.A. Sheriff's Dept has not solved the case. She went from L.A. to Palm Springs the day Kennedy was shot. She cannot be placed in Oxnard, CA that day, where an upset woman tried to make a person-to-person call to Chicago, got onto the operator's line and said, "They're going to kill the President" 20 minutes before he was shot. This was reported to the FBI and the story appeared in many newspapers around the US the next day. The real woman supposedly made the call from a law practice in Oxnard, and her name was revealed to Robert Kennedy on the day he was shot."

I bet Kupcinet really loved your take on this.

On the day, who was shot? JFK or RFK.

"Crime Wave by James Ellroy -- "The Glamour Jungle," GQ, December 1998; Winchell: Gossip, Power and the Culture of Celebrity by Neal Gabler; Judith Campbell Exner - television interview before she died where she said, "I was in love with that man. What more does that family want from me?"; the IMDb - Internet Movie Database; Irv Kupcinet's columns re Oliver Stone's JFK; McAdam's JFK Assassination site; and my own conjecture."

To be sure.

"She was definitely murdered, although crime writer, James Ellroy, said she must have been dancing nude like a wood nymph to free her inhibitions. Actors are always trying to free their inhibitions. She had a book somewhere in the house opened to a page that said that. And then she supposedly fell and hit her neck on the corner of the coffee table, crawled up onto the sofa and died."

Pure speculation

And then, maybe it was suicide or she died like Anna Nicole with so many different prescription drugs in her. She was decomposed and they couldn't trace how many drugs she had in her. But I still believe she was murdered. Was she such a bad housekeeper that she left closet doors open, drawers with their contents trailing on the floor, bed clothes pulled halfway off the bed, revealing 2 twin beds pushed together;and 100 methamphetamines missing?

You're grasping at straws.

There are several suspects. One of them, David Lange, died last year. No deathbed confession. And her ex-boyfriend, Andrew Prine, looks terribly ill. He's about 71 now. He has his own website, a pathetic attempt at trying to get an acting job when he looks and sounds like walking death. Plus she had 2 male visitors earlier that night whom she didn't know well. And everyone of these suspects had lousy alibis."

So what? Who cares? And, how do you expect you're going to look when you're 71. His career was most likely ruined from being associated with this whole bloody mess. You sound almost ecstatic. Karyn and her old man are probably rolling over in their graves with the way you've been ragging her.

Don't you have anything positive or nice to say about someone who's not here to defend themselves? It's as if you glory in airing their dirty laundry, and any little insignificant tidbit of slander you may be able to glean from their "supposedly" sordid pasts. What purpose does it serve? To make you feel better about yourself?

Was Walter Winchell your idol, or your mentor? Because you sure sound like a cheap imitation of him, Ms. Cloak of Darkness blogspot.com. You sure get off on throwing your website around here, for someone who can't seem to get their story straight.

And, while it's still fresh in my mind, DO NOT EVER, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, CONTACT ME AGAIN VIA MY E-MAIL ADDRESS! Especially, since I haven't set out to attack you in any recent memory that I can recall.

My apologies to John Geraghty, Kathy Beckett, Evan Marshall, Simkin, Walker, et. al.

Terry, John Simkin brought up the subject of Karyn Kupcinet. That's how it's relevant.

How can you say I'm ecstatic talking about her death and Andrew Prine getting old? Karyn means a lot to me. A lot. And it goes back decades. I contribute to her Yahoo group. No, I don't think Irv would have liked my focusing on the Assassination. He believed that she was murdered by someone in her circle, namely David Lange who's past on. By the way, Kari Kupcinet, Karyn's niece, knows I'm on her Yahoo group. The man who is writing a book about Karyn is grateful for my time and my posts and theories.

Re Walter Winchell: He's a little bit before my time. My mother used to read his columns. Winchell went out to L.A. to investigate the murder. He didn't succeed. He actually told Irv he was going to win a Pulitzer Prize doing it. Didn't happen.

It was Dorothy Kilgallen I admired. I believe it was she who reported that someone in Karyn's circle killed her and that it was a married man. I have no idea who that is. But Kilgallen was a smart woman and my family always thought there was something fishy about her death. I recommend you read Lee Israel's book on Dorothy.

If I'm a little dark, Terry, God made me that way. And, tell me, isn't the Assassination of John Kennedy dark in and of itself? Sensationalism? What about publishing gory autopsy photos for the public to see? That's so dark it's soot! When you point the finger at someone else, Terry, remember, 3 of your fingers are pointing back at you. And another old adage: It takes one to know one.

Kathy

***********************************************************

"And, tell me, isn't the Assassination of John Kennedy dark in and of itself? Sensationalism? What about publishing gory autopsy photos for the public to see?"

Not when you're viewing it from a purely forensic P.O.V. Nor, from the aspect of having experience in the staging and triage of gun shot wounds. Yet, you insist on labeling state and federal homicide evidence as "gory" simply because you prefer to be noted as a researcher from a purely "literary"

standpoint. Therefore, those bonafide authors and researchers who are physicists, radiologists, pathologists, clinicians, and their technical staff and support teams, along with the attorneys, and their paralegals who happen to be investigating the homicide of the 35th President of the United States, are merely "masturbating in the blood of John F. Kennedy," as you once accused the research community of partaking in.

"It takes one to know one."

Oh really? I am so flattered you chose to include me, but I seriously doubt I come anywhere near your stature when it comes to style and ability to pick apart someone's past to the inclusion of irrelevant aspects that have absolutely nothing to do with connecting them to the assassination. Your seemingly uncanny sense for dragging their reputations through the mud by making reference to their poor body image, low self-esteem, and how this somehow drove them into drug addiction, is a logical deduction. But I fail to see the direct connection between this information about them, or why this particular facet in their personality would make them ideal candidates for murder with respect to the Kennedy assassination.

If you're trying to make the case of perpetrators getting back at Kupcinet himself, to shut him up, I have no quarrel with that. What I find distasteful is the way you claim to revere someone, in this case Karyn, yet seemingly go out of your way to point out every character flaw you deem pertinent as a direct involvement in JFK's assassination. But, that's if you can make a connection that she may have somehow been distributing drugs to the dead president, or been his "pusher man." And that, in itself is a pretty far stretch of the imagination. It's as if you pick the most lurid details to make a point that goes nowhere near what you're trying to say. You do the same thing with Marilyn Monroe. Cut her up into bits and pieces, all the while castigating her with accusations aimed at her sexual preferences and promiscuities. Then, doing a 180 degree turn to say how much you admired her. What the hell is that all about?

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Well... I presented a list of suspicious deaths surrounding President Kennedy's murder and asked for input. The list excluded Karyn Kupcinet, because I'm unconvinced about the story, but Kathy alertly called the omission to my attention and we were in the midst of discussing it.

Thank you for taking the time to review my list Kathy, I appreciate your input.

Sorry the subject upset you Terry; Kathy and I are brainstorming here. And brainstorming is, ideally, non-judgemental to encourage free exchange of ideas, which is what I hoped for when I revised this thread.

So let's continue to brainstorm. Oh, and if anyone knows the ages and exact dates of death for anyone on my list (for whom I don't already have that info, duh) then please let me know.

********************************************************************

"Sorry the subject upset you Terry; Kathy and I are brainstorming here. And brainstorming is, ideally, non-judgemental to encourage free exchange of ideas, which is what I hoped for when I revised this thread."

The subject itself does not upset me, Myra. It's the character assassination of an individual, by what I perceive to be a judgemental person, claiming all the while to be honoring said, albeit deceased individual.

"So let's continue to brainstorm. Oh, and if anyone knows the ages and exact dates of death for anyone on my list (for whom I don't already have that info, duh) then please let me know."

By all means, Myra. I look forward to your assessment, and acknowledge your innate capability for separating the wheat from the chaff.

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'John Simkin' post='4103' date='Apr 24 2004,[/b] 08:57 AM']

Terry, John Simkin brought up the subject of Karyn Kupcinet. That's how it's relevant.

How can you say I'm ecstatic talking about her death and Andrew Prine getting old? Karyn means a lot to me. A lot. And it goes back decades. I contribute to her Yahoo group. No, I don't think Irv would have liked my focusing on the Assassination. He believed that she was murdered by someone in her circle, namely David Lange who's past on. By the way, Kari Kupcinet, Karyn's niece, knows I'm on her Yahoo group. The man who is writing a book about Karyn is grateful for my time and my posts and theories.

Re Walter Winchell: He's a little bit before my time. My mother used to read his columns. Winchell went out to L.A. to investigate the murder. He didn't succeed. He actually told Irv he was going to win a Pulitzer Prize doing it. Didn't happen.

It was Dorothy Kilgallen I admired. I believe it was she who reported that someone in Karyn's circle killed her and that it was a married man. I have no idea who that is. But Kilgallen was a smart woman and my family always thought there was something fishy about her death. I recommend you read Lee Israel's book on Dorothy.

If I'm a little dark, Terry, God made me that way. And, tell me, isn't the Assassination of John Kennedy dark in and of itself? Sensationalism? What about publishing gory autopsy photos for the public to see? That's so dark it's soot! When you point the finger at someone else, Terry, remember, 3 of your fingers are pointing back at you. And another old adage: It takes one to know one.

Kathy

***********************************************************

"And, tell me, isn't the Assassination of John Kennedy dark in and of itself? Sensationalism? What about publishing gory autopsy photos for the public to see?"

Not when you're viewing it from a purely forensic P.O.V. Nor, from the aspect of having experience in the staging and triage of gun shot wounds. Yet, you insist on labeling state and federal homicide evidence as "gory" simply because you prefer to be noted as a researcher from a purely "literary"

standpoint. Therefore, those bonafide authors and researchers who are physicists, radiologists, pathologists, clinicians, and their technical staff and support teams, along with the attorneys, and their paralegals who happen to be investigating the homicide of the 35th President of the United States, are merely "masturbating in the blood of John F. Kennedy," as you once accused the research community of partaking in.

"It takes one to know one."

Oh really? I am so flattered you chose to include me, but I seriously doubt I come anywhere near your stature when it comes to style and ability to pick apart someone's past to the inclusion of irrelevant aspects that have absolutely nothing to do with connecting them to the assassination. Your seemingly uncanny sense for dragging their reputations through the mud by making reference to their poor body image, low self-esteem, and how this somehow drove them into drug addiction, is a logical deduction. But I fail to see the direct connection between this information about them, or why this particular facet in their personality would make them ideal candidates for murder with respect to the Kennedy assassination.

If you're trying to make the case of perpetrators getting back at Kupcinet himself, to shut him up, I have no quarrel with that. What I find distasteful is the way you claim to revere someone, in this case Karyn, yet seemingly go out of your way to point out every character flaw you deem pertinent as a direct involvement in JFK's assassination. But, that's if you can make a connection that she may have somehow been distributing drugs to the dead president, or been his "pusher man." And that, in itself is a pretty far stretch of the imagination. It's as if you pick the most lurid details to make a point that goes nowhere near what you're trying to say. You do the same thing with Marilyn Monroe. Cut her up into bits and pieces, all the while castigating her with accusations aimed at her sexual preferences and promiscuities. Then, doing a 180 degree turn to say how much you admired her. What the hell is that all about?

Terry, the line or image that popped up in my mind and which I typed into the computer was meant only for you because you bitch at people. It was not pre-planned: I was furious.

Professor Paul Fecteau is writing a book on Karyn. And I don't think anyone's really talked about Karyn "before Hollywood" on that group. I know some things, but not a wealth of info pre-Hollywood. You have to understand that Karyn is dead, and when you examine someone who's gone, you have to let in the negative things. I admire her so much. I thought she was beautiful and I see her as a victim. I've said before, she should have gone into journalism. But she had a "stage mother" and as their almost half-a-century-long housekeeper said, Karyn was talked into becoming an actress. Because Karyn's mother was besotted with show biz and celebrities. Essee wanted to be a dancer, but her father wouldn't allow it and sent her off to college. If you weren't famous, Essee wouldn't even acknowledge you. Karyn felt she was letting her parents down.

As for linking her to the Kennedy Assassination, Penn Jones Jr did that and then it was repeated in various books. I only write what I know about her, and if it's conjecture I say so.

People still give me books about Marilyn Monroe as birthday or Christmas gifts. Actually I stopped collecting her in the '80's because the books dwelled on her death too much.

Karyn's story is of a young person being forced to be this starlet, when she could have chosen another occupation if let alone. I believe Irv was disturbed about her plastic surgeries. I think Karyn had low self-esteem because she thought she never looked pretty enough. Her mother knew since 1960 that Karyn was taking diet pills. In her last year she was on methamphetamine and suffered from hallucinations. It's a very sad story.

I never castigated Monroe for anything. I said I wish she would have put the cork in the bottle and not been so promiscuous because these things harmed her. She was alcoholic and a severe depressive and there wasn't much help for her in those days as there is today. Could she walk into Alcoholics Anonymous and really be "Anonymous"?

As for picking out Karyn's flaws, I'm trying to explain what was going on. All great people have flaws. And when I read in 1979 what had happened to her, I "identified" with her. I also, at that age, identified with Monroe. That's why I know so much about them.

The Kennedy Assassination attracts a lot of morbid people; you must know that. They're out there. They might not be posting but they're out there.

One time I bought The Globe and they had autopsy photos of President Kennedy. I told my brother (9 years older than I) not to look at it. Well, he gave in to curiousity. That was years ago. He said to me recently, "You don't know how many nights I lose sleep thinking about that picture" [The Stare of Death, as they call it]. He then said the worst day in his life was when my mother died. Then he said, "The second worst day was when John Kennedy died: it ruined my life." He's a stroke victim, diabetic and has had triple bypass surgery. It's strange the things that stay in his mind and the things that don't. For instance, he used to do a wicked imitation of Liberace, and he can't remember how he did it or even that he did it. And that makes him sad.

These are my explanations for your various attacks on my character.

Kathy

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The subject itself does not upset me, Myra. It's the character assassination of an individual, by what I perceive to be a judgemental person, claiming all the while to be honoring said, albeit deceased individual.

Unfortunately, Karyn's personal life becomes relevant to the debate about her death because Ellroy and others have suggested that she may have committed suicide. I don't know if what Kathy shared amounts to "character assassination." So Karyn "had issues"? Who doesn't?

--Paul

--

Paul Fecteau (paul@paulfecteau.com)

Kari Kupcinet (kari@paulfecteau.com)

homepage: http://paulfecteau.com/

mailing address:

Department of English

Washburn University

1700 S.W. College Ave.

Topeka, KS 66621

phone: 785-670-1445

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The subject itself does not upset me, Myra. It's the character assassination of an individual, by what I perceive to be a judgemental person, claiming all the while to be honoring said, albeit deceased individual.

Unfortunately, Karyn's personal life becomes relevant to the debate about her death because Ellroy and others have suggested that she may have committed suicide. I don't know if what Kathy shared amounts to "character assassination." So Karyn "had issues"? Who doesn't?

--Paul

--

Paul Fecteau (paul@paulfecteau.com)

Kari Kupcinet (kari@paulfecteau.com)

homepage: http://paulfecteau.com/

mailing address:

Department of English

Washburn University

1700 S.W. College Ave.

Topeka, KS 66621

phone: 785-670-1445

Thank you, Paul and Myra. Terry and I don't get along. As for Karyn Kupcinet, I would have loved to be her friend. She was such a worthwhile person. And highly intelligent. But always Essee's opinion came first. Essee was a beautiful woman. But, except for her height, which was short, I think Karyn took after Irv. She was in such a spiral. And I want to say something about Andrew Prine. To the best of my knowledge, I don't think he ever paid back Mark Goddard for Karyn's Mexico abortion. He was asking for alimony from the wife he was divorcing. Which, especially in those days, made him look bad.

Thanks again.

Kathy

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The subject itself does not upset me, Myra. It's the character assassination of an individual, by what I perceive to be a judgemental person, claiming all the while to be honoring said, albeit deceased individual.

Unfortunately, Karyn's personal life becomes relevant to the debate about her death because Ellroy and others have suggested that she may have committed suicide. I don't know if what Kathy shared amounts to "character assassination." So Karyn "had issues"? Who doesn't?

--Paul

--

Paul Fecteau (paul@paulfecteau.com)

Kari Kupcinet (kari@paulfecteau.com)

homepage: http://paulfecteau.com/

mailing address:

Department of English

Washburn University

1700 S.W. College Ave.

Topeka, KS 66621

phone: 785-670-1445

**************************************************************

"So Karyn "had issues"? Who doesn't?"

They needn't be paraded before the world like a cheap, "True Confessions" magazine article.

And please, if you will, show me the direct relevance her death, be it by murder, suicide, or natural causes, has with the assassination of Kennedy.

Someone, such as Penn Jones writes a book about suspicious deaths surrounding the assassination, and mentions Kupcinet as one of the perceived victims, on the basis of her father's reputation, and the close proximity of her death to the date of the assassination. There was a report of a long distance operator claiming to overhear a woman scream into the phone, "They're going to kill the president!" I'm still waiting for the actual documentation on this that doesn't go off on a tangent about Karyn Kupcinet's personal history, physical and psychological flaws, or her mother's apparent obsessive preoccupation with living her own life through her daughter's. Now, if Karyn worked for JFK's campaign committee in some slightly relevant capacity, or had direct contact with him on a semi-regular basis, or possibly had the status afforded Monroe, with regard to access and proximity to the president, and/or his immediate associated circle of friends or advisers, there might be a better case to be made with respect to a direct relationship of Karyn Kupcinet's death to the assassination. Anything else is pure speculation and better served as bio on what the ravages of Hollywood may wreak upon the lives of those who come to seek their fame and fortune on "The Boulevard Of Broken Dreams."

On the other hand, Dorothy Kilgallen serves as a more plausible case, due to her stature as a reporter. The same can be said for Kopechne [sp?], who was politically involved, having worked for Smathers, and for Ted Kennedy. I recently read, here on the forum, where Kupcinet had gone to the same school, or had been a possible roommate of Kopechne's [sp?]. But, the direct connection with Kupcinet having been involved in any capacity other than what appeared to be, as a "party girl," or hired escort [relegating her to the status of a "groupie"], without actually being involved in any PAC, or presidential campaign, leaves a lot in question, as to what significance her death really had with the assassination, itself. IMHO, any one of Jack Ruby's girls a had better chance, or reason, for getting wacked than Karyn Kupcinet. But, say her father actually had knowledge aforethought, through his association with Ruby, or didn't know, yet his association with Ruby might put him, or his family at risk, then the murder or staged suicide of his daughter would be a sufficient warning, I grant you that. But, I need more documentation on that long distance operator and that "phone call." I need more concrete evidence, and a lot less focus on his daughter's drug habits, and/or sex life, or what coulda', woulda', shoulda', happened to her, had her mother not pushed her into the life a Hollywood starlet. The only purpose this approach serves is to further degrade what little is left of her memory in the national conscience. Therefore, unless you are doing a case history on the study of dysfunctional parenting and the direct relationship this has to the cause and effect of drug addiction in their offspring, I fail to see why is this segment of Karyn Kupcinet's history is relevant to the assassination? That is, unless she was dealing drugs to the president, and I find that highly unlikely at this juncture. If you can manage to sway my thoughts on the subject with less gossip and rumor mill "speak," I'll be the first to acquiesce.

Edited by Terry Mauro
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The subject itself does not upset me, Myra. It's the character assassination of an individual, by what I perceive to be a judgemental person, claiming all the while to be honoring said, albeit deceased individual.

Unfortunately, Karyn's personal life becomes relevant to the debate about her death because Ellroy and others have suggested that she may have committed suicide. I don't know if what Kathy shared amounts to "character assassination." So Karyn "had issues"? Who doesn't?

--Paul

--

Paul Fecteau (paul@paulfecteau.com)

Kari Kupcinet (kari@paulfecteau.com)

homepage: http://paulfecteau.com/

mailing address:

Department of English

Washburn University

1700 S.W. College Ave.

Topeka, KS 66621

phone: 785-670-1445

Thank you, Paul and Myra. Terry and I don't get along. As for Karyn Kupcinet, I would have loved to be her friend. She was such a worthwhile person. And highly intelligent. But always Essee's opinion came first. Essee was a beautiful woman. But, except for her height, which was short, I think Karyn took after Irv. She was in such a spiral. And I want to say something about Andrew Prine. To the best of my knowledge, I don't think he ever paid back Mark Goddard for Karyn's Mexico abortion. He was asking for alimony from the wife he was divorcing. Which, especially in those days, made him look bad.

Thanks again.

Kathy

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"Terry and I don't get along."

That's an understatement. And, "why?"

"As for Karyn Kupcinet, I would have loved to be her friend. She was such a worthwhile person. And highly intelligent. But always Essee's opinion came first. Essee was a beautiful woman. But, except for her height, which was short, I think Karyn took after Irv. She was in such a spiral. And I want to say something about Andrew Prine. To the best of my knowledge, I don't think he ever paid back Mark Goddard for Karyn's Mexico abortion. He was asking for alimony from the wife he was divorcing. Which, especially in those days, made him look bad."

This is, "why." What I've bolded is, "why." And, I truly believe Karyn would've more than likely shunned any association with someone who would claim to be her friend, yet said "friend" would take it upon herself to broadcast the fact that Karyn had had an abortion, take pot shots at her height, claim she was in a spiral, and that her boyfriend was seeking palimony from the wife he was divorcing.

You have an exceptional thought process.

"I don't think he ever paid back Mark Goddard for Karyn's Mexico abortion."

Wait a minute, maybe that was just an excuse for her to go to Mexico and meet up with Saul, or is it Ralph Geb? Is that her connection to the assassination? This could be a breakthrough!

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Thank you, Paul and Myra. Terry and I don't get along. As for Karyn Kupcinet, I would have loved to be her friend. She was such a worthwhile person. And highly intelligent. But always Essee's opinion came first. Essee was a beautiful woman. But, except for her height, which was short, I think Karyn took after Irv. She was in such a spiral. And I want to say something about Andrew Prine. To the best of my knowledge, I don't think he ever paid back Mark Goddard for Karyn's Mexico abortion. He was asking for alimony from the wife he was divorcing. Which, especially in those days, made him look bad.

Thanks again.

Kathy

****************************************************

"Terry and I don't get along."

That's an understatement. And, "why?"

"As for Karyn Kupcinet, I would have loved to be her friend. She was such a worthwhile person. And highly intelligent. But always Essee's opinion came first. Essee was a beautiful woman. But, except for her height, which was short, I think Karyn took after Irv. She was in such a spiral. And I want to say something about Andrew Prine. To the best of my knowledge, I don't think he ever paid back Mark Goddard for Karyn's Mexico abortion. He was asking for alimony from the wife he was divorcing. Which, especially in those days, made him look bad."

This is, "why." What I've bolded is, "why." And, I truly believe Karyn would've more than likely shunned any association with someone who would claim to be her friend, yet said "friend" would take it upon herself to broadcast the fact that Karyn had had an abortion, take pot shots at her height, claim she was in a spiral, and that her boyfriend was seeking palimony from the wife he was divorcing.

You have an exceptional thought process.

"I don't think he ever paid back Mark Goddard for Karyn's Mexico abortion."

Wait a minute, maybe that was just an excuse for her to go to Mexico and meet up with Saul, or is it Ralph Geb? Is that her connection to the assassination? This could be a breakthrough!

First of all, is saying Karyn was short demeaning to her? I'm only 5'1. I'm not the first to say she had an abortion. I think it attributed to her hallucination on the last day of her life, when she called people to tell them a baby was left on her doorstep. And it added to her depression.

I see you've read my blog where I discovered Ralph Geb. You can discount it, but he looks like the yearbook picture of "Donald Norton." I had never heard of Ralph Geb and wrote his name down as an afterthought because he reminded me of the yearbook picture. Then I looked his name up in a search and found out he was one of LHO's impersonators.

If KK was alive, and I knew her, I wouldn't tell anyone anything negative about her. She was struggling and had major demons. She died. I never knew her. Things always come out in murder investigations. I see her as a victim, not as a bad person.

Can we get off each other's backs now? Or as Rodney King would say:

"Can we...Can we get along?"

Kathy

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And please, if you will, show me the direct relevance her death, be it by murder, suicide, or natural causes, has with the assassination of Kennedy.

For the record, I don't think Karyn's murder has any relevance to the JFK assassination, but some folks do, so that's why it is being discussed here. I don't think Karyn committed suicide, but some folks do, so that's why her personal life is being discussed, too. I think Ms. Mauro is mainly reacting to Kathy's tone, and that's fair. --Paul

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And please, if you will, show me the direct relevance her death, be it by murder, suicide, or natural causes, has with the assassination of Kennedy.

For the record, I don't think Karyn's murder has any relevance to the JFK assassination, but some folks do, so that's why it is being discussed here. I don't think Karyn committed suicide, but some folks do, so that's why her personal life is being discussed, too. I think Ms. Mauro is mainly reacting to Kathy's tone, and that's fair. --Paul

I remember being mad at True Hollywood Story and James Ellroy. He had a tone. What is my tone?

Kathy

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And please, if you will, show me the direct relevance her death, be it by murder, suicide, or natural causes, has with the assassination of Kennedy.

For the record, I don't think Karyn's murder has any relevance to the JFK assassination, but some folks do, so that's why it is being discussed here. I don't think Karyn committed suicide, but some folks do, so that's why her personal life is being discussed, too. I think Ms. Mauro is mainly reacting to Kathy's tone, and that's fair. --Paul

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Thank you for your reply, Professor Fecteau. It's not so much Ms. Collin's tone, as her lack of cohesiveness in attempting to tie Kupcinet's death to the assassination with what strikes me as nothing less than what Jacqueline Kennedy once used to described gossip columnists, or newspaper paparazzi with the term, "harpies." That "harpy-esque" quality inherent in groundless, or baseless hearsay, employed mainly to draw-in those unsuspecting, or "uninformed" minds, seeking to be "in-the-know," if you will. Possibly similar to a form of witless, or unintentional, distribution of dis or mis-information? Yet, strictly for the purpose of targetting or attracting a level of mindset, or sector of society interested in that form of news gathering. Unfortunately, a sad reflection on the intelligence quotient of present day U.S. society, in light of the sales generated by that form of, what used to be classified as, "yellow" journalism. And, if that is representative of what the term, "tone" is, relative to a particular style? Then, I'd have to say, you're right on the mark.

Edited by Terry Mauro
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And please, if you will, show me the direct relevance her death, be it by murder, suicide, or natural causes, has with the assassination of Kennedy.

For the record, I don't think Karyn's murder has any relevance to the JFK assassination, but some folks do, so that's why it is being discussed here. I don't think Karyn committed suicide, but some folks do, so that's why her personal life is being discussed, too. I think Ms. Mauro is mainly reacting to Kathy's tone, and that's fair. --Paul

************************************************************

Thank you for your reply, Professor Fecteau. It's not so much Ms. Collin's tone, as her lack of cohesiveness in attempting to tie Kupcinet's death to the assassination with what strikes me as nothing less than what Jacqueline Kennedy once used to described gossip columnists, or newspaper paparazzi with the term, "harpies." That "harpy-esque" quality inherent in groundless, or baseless hearsay, employed mainly to draw-in those unsuspecting, or "uninformed" minds, seeking to be "in-the-know," if you will. Possibly similar to a form of witless, or unintentional, distribution of dis or mis-information? Yet, strictly for the purpose of targetting or attracting a level of mindset, or sector of society interested in that form of news gathering. Unfortunately, a sad reflection on the intelligence quotient of present day U.S. society, in light of the sales generated by that form of, what used to be classified as, "yellow" journalism. And, if that is representative of what the term, "tone" is, relative to a particular style? Then, I'd have to say, you're right on the mark.

I am not a harpy following around a celebrity. But you can say I harp on the subject of Karyn Kupcinet, deceased. She was murdered, her friends and parents didn't understand her, she did Meth. Her murderer might still be alive. As for the Assassination, as I said, John Simkin brought it up. One of the popular Kennedy books indicated that "Karyn was the first witness, after Oswald, to die." Penn Jones Jr began this controversy. I have never gotten my hands on Forgive My Grief II. It's too expensive.

All the men in her life -- not one failed a lie detector test. And then I found out someone was connecting her to the Kennedy Assassination. Well, I want to get to the bottom of it. A lot of things I said about Karyn's problems came from other sources besides myself. Read James Ellroy (if you want to talk about tone) about her in Crime Wave, "The Glamour Jungle." Or the saga-like "Lost World of Kup," from Chicago magazine. Read People magazine from 1976 (Tony Randall on the cover), "Unsolved Celebrity Murders." You'll find my "predecessors" also reported her problems.

I wish she were alive. But she isn't. And to tell you the truth, I am tired of this thread. It's going nowhere. If you want to keep it going, Terry, fine. But remember neither one of us is going to change as a person. And I am curious about the Assassination. That is why I am on this forum. Although it took me a long time in my life to be able to deal with the way he died. I was brought up Irish Catholic, so you know my eyes were glued to the TV set that weekend. When she appeared on the lift with her husband's blood all over her...

Maybe I should have been a gossip columnist; Irv was. But I'm too introverted still. I explore certain things in my novels. That's what I'm good for. I wanted to explore related things, but I guess not on this forum. I'm talking about the Skakel case and Robert Kennedy Jr's take on it. And John Jr's death. But I'll have to save them for my blog.

I want to say something to you, Terry -- you are an excellent writer. I hope someday you'll write something for publication, maybe when you retire.

I'm over and out.

Kathy

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I hope not to aggravate a great many members, but I am going to attempt to "regress" or "progress" ( depending on your individual views ) from the Kupcinet diversion of this subject, which I find quite insignificant except as a matter of chatter.

Studies made regarding the "numbers" of deaths, have in more recent years, attempted to "sweep under the table" the true significance of the subject!

"Statistically" perhaps the "numbers alone", are less significant than what some have maintained.

"Statistics" are only indicating the probability of a number of deaths likely among a given number of people and THIS is not the meat of the matter !

What I and most of us feel that is important, is the deaths and manner of deaths of THE TRULY IMPORTANT witnesses, whom could have drastically impacted this case. Persons such as Georges de Morenschildt, Sam Giancanna, and dozens more. It is not just the deaths of witnesses...it is a study of the reality of the "importance" of some of these "victims".

I realize that I have no idea of how one might "rank" these individuals in order of importance, but the statistics which "we" have accepted are ridiculous, as they do not go the heart of the matter.

We here on this forum KNOW that this was quite unnatural and highly unlikely ! Statistics CAN lie if the statistician is a "xxxx" !

The deaths, importance of those dead, and the manner of deaths, during the HSCA time period alone is unbelievable, to any who have come out from under the ether!

Even deaths which have been labeled as "heart attacks" and "drownings" etc., are certainly not beyond suspicion. I think that it is widely accepted that heart attacks can be induced in, for all practical purposes, an undectable manner !

If one realistically looks at these, one might suggest that we have been overly and invitingly "gullible" !

No disrespect meant for the Kupcinets !

Charles Black

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