How good were the shooters in DP?

[Mark Stapleton]

In Farewell America, the author states:

President Kennedy's assassination was the work of magicians. It was a stage trick complete with accessories and false mirrors and when the curtain fell the actors, and even the scenery, disappeared. But the magicians were not illusionists but professionals, artists in their way.

The planning was obviously thourough. The route, motorcade, location etc, but how good were the shooters? Always wondered about this. Considering all the factors like range, speed of the target, size of target etc, I would be interested in the opinions of the experts on this like Al Carrier, Ryan Crowe and anyone else who has knowledge and experience in this field. I've never discharged a firearm myself.

Was this an ambush with an extreme degree of difficulty requiring world class marksmen? For argument's sake, I'm assuming three firing positions (TSBD, Daltex, fence). I know there is dispute about the number and locations of the gunmen, but with these assumptions what kind of expertise would be required? Could, for example, the three best shooters in the local gun clubs throughout the county have been equal to this task? Would they necessarily have required military training? How many marksmen were there in Texas, or America or the world who could have been up to this job. I'm guessing possibly thousands but I really don't have a clue.

Also, how would you rate their performance?

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Mark;

Although fully aware that in all probability you (& most others) will neither accept nor believe it, for the record:

1. There was only ONE shooter.

2. Despite what many will state to the contrary, the 6.5mm Carcano Rifle (in relatively good condition), coupled with the WCC 6.5mm ammo, is a deadly combination.

Accuracy wise, the US Army Ballistics Research Laboratory compared the accuracy as being equivelant to our current US military weapons.

Armed with "match" quality weapons, the Italian Olympics Team had always done quite well and ranked quite high in Olympics Competition, with this weapon.

3. The planning was in fact quite thorough, which included the equi-distant yellow marks painted onto the curb of Elm Street through the "Kill Zone". Which, any shooter would easily recognize as "Range Markers".

Many will attempt to "Sell" this off as some sort of traffic control marking which was utilized by the Dallas Street Department.

Sounds good! However, since these yellow marks were painted only on the downrange & visible (from the TSDB) side of Elm St, and were exactly in the kill zone, and there were no other similar stripes painted onto the curbs of any other streets anywhere in the vicinity, then the "Traffic Control" scenario is a no-floater.

One could add to this the unconfirmed rumor that (I believe it was Jean Hill) got some of this yellow paint on her shoe, from it's being so freshly painted, and the purpose of these yellow marks becomes even more evident.

4. Were we to attempt to "stuff" all three shots fired in to the WC scenario with the Z-312/313 head shot being the Last/Final shot of the three, then the shooting sequence would obviously have to be rushed.

In that regard, exactly why would anyone believe much of anything as stated by the WC?

The Z-312/313 head shot being the SECOND shot, thereby gave the shooter, approximately 5.8 seconds from first shot to second shot.--------Run that one by your "Experts" and see how difficult they claim it is.

Thereafter, the THIRD/LAST/FINAL shot came about, just about as fast as the weapon could be operated, which is of course in the 2.3 (+/-) interval, for a total shooting time of approximately 8.1 to 8.4 seconds.

Give that data to any true "shooter", and you may find that all of the garbage relative to the impossibility of the shots will go back into the garbage can.

In conclusion, anyone who attempts to resolve the issues by searching for the mythical "multiple assassin", will, if age permits, be here for another 40 + years.

The shooting sequence was not difficult, even without the range markers/aka yellow stripes.

The weapon and ammo were entirely capable of the accuracy which it achieved, which by the way was a relatively short distance.

The "target" in moving away from the shooter, virtually guaranteed a "hit", however one must also note that the second shot/aka Z-312/313 shot to the Cowlick area of the back of the head almost went high.

Since you claim to not be a "shooter", then might I recommend that you read up on the works of those such as Ayoob Massad in "AMERICAN HANDGUNNER" magazine.

And, even the resident Chiropractor on the John McAdams site, with relatively little experience, has managed to get off three shots in the 5.8 to 5.9 second time of the WC scenario.

So, would the shooting sequence, as presented by the WC be somewhat difficult?------Yes

Exactly why was it that you believed this BS in the first place?

As a final comment, might I recommend the 10 pages of the WC "circular reasoning" which deals with the "SHOT THAT MISSED", when in fact, other than the fragment strike on the curbe (Tague), there is no indication of any shot having missed.

The "Magic Bullet" did not miss.----Neither is it CE399, as CE399 has not pulled a disappearing act.

Tom

[Terry Adams]

Mark;

Although fully aware that in all probability you (& most others) will neither accept nor believe it, for the record:

1. There was only ONE shooter.

2. Despite what many will state to the contrary, the 6.5mm Carcano Rifle (in relatively good condition), coupled with the WCC 6.5mm ammo, is a deadly combination.

Accuracy wise, the US Army Ballistics Research Laboratory compared the accuracy as being equivelant to our current US military weapons.

Armed with "match" quality weapons, the Italian Olympics Team had always done quite well and ranked quite high in Olympics Competition, with this weapon.

3. The planning was in fact quite thorough, which included the equi-distant yellow marks painted onto the curb of Elm Street through the "Kill Zone". Which, any shooter would easily recognize as "Range Markers".

Many will attempt to "Sell" this off as some sort of traffic control marking which was utilized by the Dallas Street Department.

Sounds good! However, since these yellow marks were painted only on the downrange & visible (from the TSDB) side of Elm St, and were exactly in the kill zone, and there were no other similar stripes painted onto the curbs of any other streets anywhere in the vicinity, then the "Traffic Control" scenario is a no-floater.

One could add to this the unconfirmed rumor that (I believe it was Jean Hill) got some of this yellow paint on her shoe, from it's being so freshly painted, and the purpose of these yellow marks becomes even more evident.

4. Were we to attempt to "stuff" all three shots fired in to the WC scenario with the Z-312/313 head shot being the Last/Final shot of the three, then the shooting sequence would obviously have to be rushed.

In that regard, exactly why would anyone believe much of anything as stated by the WC?

The Z-312/313 head shot being the SECOND shot, thereby gave the shooter, approximately 5.8 seconds from first shot to second shot.--------Run that one by your "Experts" and see how difficult they claim it is.

Thereafter, the THIRD/LAST/FINAL shot came about, just about as fast as the weapon could be operated, which is of course in the 2.3 (+/-) interval, for a total shooting time of approximately 8.1 to 8.4 seconds.

Give that data to any true "shooter", and you may find that all of the garbage relative to the impossibility of the shots will go back into the garbage can.

In conclusion, anyone who attempts to resolve the issues by searching for the mythical "multiple assassin", will, if age permits, be here for another 40 + years.

The shooting sequence was not difficult, even without the range markers/aka yellow stripes.

The weapon and ammo were entirely capable of the accuracy which it achieved, which by the way was a relatively short distance.

The "target" in moving away from the shooter, virtually guaranteed a "hit", however one must also note that the second shot/aka Z-312/313 shot to the Cowlick area of the back of the head almost went high.

Since you claim to not be a "shooter", then might I recommend that you read up on the works of those such as Ayoob Massad in "AMERICAN HANDGUNNER" magazine.

And, even the resident Chiropractor on the John McAdams site, with relatively little experience, has managed to get off three shots in the 5.8 to 5.9 second time of the WC scenario.

So, would the shooting sequence, as presented by the WC be somewhat difficult?------Yes

Exactly why was it that you believed this BS in the first place?

As a final comment, might I recommend the 10 pages of the WC "circular reasoning" which deals with the "SHOT THAT MISSED", when in fact, other than the fragment strike on the curbe (Tague), there is no indication of any shot having missed.

The "Magic Bullet" did not miss.----Neither is it CE399, as CE399 has not pulled a disappearing act.

Tom

Tom. are you of the belief that the shooter, firing the MC did not use the scope. If the scope were not necessary, and I do not believe it was, then that would remove all the discussions about the fact that shims (2 or 3 ??) had to be placed under it. Not to mention, the shooter having to relocate his target, each time, through said scope. I have stood on the "X" in Elm St., and feel personally, that a scope from the TSBD would more likely result in a miss, due to improper adjustments necessary for calculating distance. But, please note that this is only the opinion of an occasional deer hunter, certainly no expert !

Terry

[Pat Speer]

Although I'm not a shooter myself, I've read quite a bit on this topic and the conclusion I've reached its that it would be slightly possible for Oswald to make the shots. VERY slightly possible. People don't just get up one day, put together a rifle they haven't fired for months, and hit a moving target from elevation 3 out of 3, or even 2 out of 3 times. There is no record of a casual shooter accomplishing such a feat. Experienced snipers are skeptical that even they could perform such a feat. Even Tom knows such a feat was unlikely, which is why he adds extra seconds onto the scenario.

IF Oswald had been practicing with the rifle, and had the extra time, then it becomes more likely that he could hit the shots, but since neither one is accepted by most lone-nut theorists, their theory is full of holes.

As far as potential shooters that were not Oswald... whoever used the Carcano would have to be top-notch, in my opinion. The rifle was crap but he made two hits, if the ballistics evidence is to be believed. Other potential shooters may not have been as good, seeing as they made only one hit or seeing as they missed entirely. If there was a shooter in the Dal-Tex using subsonic ammunition, as I believe, he would have to be very experienced, in order to account for the substantial bullet drop. He was probably a professional.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Mark;

Although fully aware that in all probability you (& most others) will neither accept nor believe it, for the record:

1. There was only ONE shooter.

2. Despite what many will state to the contrary, the 6.5mm Carcano Rifle (in relatively good condition), coupled with the WCC 6.5mm ammo, is a deadly combination.

Accuracy wise, the US Army Ballistics Research Laboratory compared the accuracy as being equivelant to our current US military weapons.

Armed with "match" quality weapons, the Italian Olympics Team had always done quite well and ranked quite high in Olympics Competition, with this weapon.

3. The planning was in fact quite thorough, which included the equi-distant yellow marks painted onto the curb of Elm Street through the "Kill Zone". Which, any shooter would easily recognize as "Range Markers".

Many will attempt to "Sell" this off as some sort of traffic control marking which was utilized by the Dallas Street Department.

Sounds good! However, since these yellow marks were painted only on the downrange & visible (from the TSDB) side of Elm St, and were exactly in the kill zone, and there were no other similar stripes painted onto the curbs of any other streets anywhere in the vicinity, then the "Traffic Control" scenario is a no-floater.

One could add to this the unconfirmed rumor that (I believe it was Jean Hill) got some of this yellow paint on her shoe, from it's being so freshly painted, and the purpose of these yellow marks becomes even more evident.

4. Were we to attempt to "stuff" all three shots fired in to the WC scenario with the Z-312/313 head shot being the Last/Final shot of the three, then the shooting sequence would obviously have to be rushed.

In that regard, exactly why would anyone believe much of anything as stated by the WC?

The Z-312/313 head shot being the SECOND shot, thereby gave the shooter, approximately 5.8 seconds from first shot to second shot.--------Run that one by your "Experts" and see how difficult they claim it is.

Thereafter, the THIRD/LAST/FINAL shot came about, just about as fast as the weapon could be operated, which is of course in the 2.3 (+/-) interval, for a total shooting time of approximately 8.1 to 8.4 seconds.

Give that data to any true "shooter", and you may find that all of the garbage relative to the impossibility of the shots will go back into the garbage can.

In conclusion, anyone who attempts to resolve the issues by searching for the mythical "multiple assassin", will, if age permits, be here for another 40 + years.

The shooting sequence was not difficult, even without the range markers/aka yellow stripes.

The weapon and ammo were entirely capable of the accuracy which it achieved, which by the way was a relatively short distance.

The "target" in moving away from the shooter, virtually guaranteed a "hit", however one must also note that the second shot/aka Z-312/313 shot to the Cowlick area of the back of the head almost went high.

Since you claim to not be a "shooter", then might I recommend that you read up on the works of those such as Ayoob Massad in "AMERICAN HANDGUNNER" magazine.

And, even the resident Chiropractor on the John McAdams site, with relatively little experience, has managed to get off three shots in the 5.8 to 5.9 second time of the WC scenario.

So, would the shooting sequence, as presented by the WC be somewhat difficult?------Yes

Exactly why was it that you believed this BS in the first place?

As a final comment, might I recommend the 10 pages of the WC "circular reasoning" which deals with the "SHOT THAT MISSED", when in fact, other than the fragment strike on the curbe (Tague), there is no indication of any shot having missed.

The "Magic Bullet" did not miss.----Neither is it CE399, as CE399 has not pulled a disappearing act.

Tom

Tom. are you of the belief that the shooter, firing the MC did not use the scope. If the scope were not necessary, and I do not believe it was, then that would remove all the discussions about the fact that shims (2 or 3 ??) had to be placed under it. Not to mention, the shooter having to relocate his target, each time, through said scope. I have stood on the "X" in Elm St., and feel personally, that a scope from the TSBD would more likely result in a miss, due to improper adjustments necessary for calculating distance. But, please note that this is only the opinion of an occasional deer hunter, certainly no expert !

Terry

I am of the general opinion that the shooter utilized the scope for, in all probability, the first shot. And, therefore the similiarity between this and the Walker shooting.

Thereafter, one could speculate as regards the second shot and target acquisition in the 5.8 to 5.9 seconds.

However, there would have been no requirement for the scope for the second shot, and there most assuredly would not have been adequate time for target acquisition for the third/last/final shot.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Although I'm not a shooter myself, I've read quite a bit on this topic and the conclusion I've reached its that it would be slightly possible for Oswald to make the shots. VERY slightly possible. People don't just get up one day, put together a rifle they haven't fired for months, and hit a moving target from elevation 3 out of 3, or even 2 out of 3 times. There is no record of a casual shooter accomplishing such a feat. I've reached its that it would be slightly possible for Oswald to make the shots. VERY slightly possibleEven Tom knows such a feat was unlikely, which is why he adds extra seconds onto the scenario.

IF Oswald had been practicing with the rifle, and had the extra time, then it becomes more likely that he could hit the shots, but since neither one is accepted by most lone-nut theorists, their theory is full of holes.

As far as potential shooters that were not Oswald... whoever used the Carcano would have to be top-notch, in my opinion. The rifle was crap but he made two hits, if the ballistics evidence is to be believed. Other potential shooters may not have been as good, seeing as they made only one hit or seeing as they missed entirely. If there was a shooter in the Dal-Tex using subsonic ammunition, as I believe, he would have to be very experienced, in order to account for the substantial bullet drop. He was probably a professional.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Even Tom knows such a feat was unlikely, which is why he adds extra seconds onto the scenario.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If one will bother to take the time to review the testimony of ALL of the witnesses, then they will find that Tom does not need to "add" anything to the scenario.

The witnesses will tell about the second shot to the head (Z-312/313) as well as the later/last shot.

And, since Tom apparantly knew long ago where to look for many answers, he is in possession of the survey as well as survey notes which were generated during the relatively accurate SS re-enactment of the assassination which was conducted on December 5, 1963, and which places the location of the Presidential Limousine (& JFK) at each of the three shots fired.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Although I'm not a shooter myself

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And since you are not, you understandably do not know whom to believe.

Might I recommend that you read and review the three stated references. And even then, if you want to know for yourself, go get you a Carcano & try it for yourself.

I may even sell you one of the six that I have sitting over there in the corner.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IF Oswald had been practicing with the rifle

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Last time that I checked, Marina testified that he used to sit on the porch and practice working the bolt.

Which by the way happens to be the first element of rapid fire with a bolt action rifle.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've reached its that it would be slightly possible for Oswald to make the shots. VERY slightly possible

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The correct term would be relatively easy!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would again recommend that one present the shot scenario as listed, to a TRULY qualified shootist and then ask the opinion.

[Lee Forman]

http://www.riflewarrior.com/case_of_the_impossible_shots.htm

Personally, I like what Craig Roberts has to say on the topic.

- lee

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Mr. HUDSON - Well there was a young fellow, oh, I would judge his age about in his late twenties. He said he had been looking for a place to park and he walked up there and he said he finally just taken a place over there in one of them parking lots, and he come on down there and said he worked over there on Industrial and me and him both just sat there first on those steps. When the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm, we got up and stood up, me and him both. He was on the left side and I was on the right and so the first shot rung out and, of course, I didn't realize it was a shot, what was taking place right at that present time, and when the second one rung out, the motorcade had done got further on down Elm, and you see, I was trying to get a good look at President Kennedy. I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet hit him - the second shot.

Mr. LIEBELER - That was when the bullet hit him in the head; is that correct?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; it looked like it ht him somewhere along about a little bit behind the ear and a little bit above the ear.

Mr. LIEBELER - On the right-hand side or the left-hand side?

Mr. HUDSON - Right hand.

Mr. LIEBELER - Can you tell me approximately where the President's car was when you heard what you later figured was the first shot?

Mr. HUDSON - Well, the best I could get right off - I remember it was right about this lightpost right here.

Mr. LIEBELER - How many shots did you here altogether?

Mr. HUDSON - Three.

Mr. LIEBELER - Three shots?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - Are you sure about that?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - You say that it was the second shot that hit him in the head; is that right?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; I do believe that - I know it was.

Mr. LIEBELER - You saw him hit in the head, there wasn't any question in your mind about that, was there?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - And after you saw him hit in the head, did you here another shot?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you see that shot hit anything - the third shot?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir. I'll tell you - this young fellow that was sitting there with me - standing there with me at the present time, he says, "lay down, Mister, somebody is shooting the President." He says, "Lay down, lay down." and he kept repeating, "Lay down." so he was already laying down one way on the sidewalk, so I just laid down over on the ground and resting my arm on the ground and when that third shot rung out and when I was close to the ground - you could tell the shot was coming from above and kind of behind.

Mr. LIEBELER - You say when the President was hit in the head he was up here by the first lamppost on the right-hand side of the post that shows in the picture?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; right along in here.

Mr. LIEBELER - That's when he got hit in the head?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; I think so.

Mr. LIEBELER - Are you sure about that?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. LIEBELER - So you had to look up Elm Street?

Mr. LIEBELER - Yes; the picture that we are looking at here is a picture of a renactment of the scene.

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; so right along about even with these steps, pretty close to even with this here, the last shot was fired - somewhere right along in there.

Mr. LIEBELER - You think the last shot was fired and the car was about where it actually is in that picture when the third shot was fired?

Mr. HUDSON - Pretty close to it; yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - But you think the President had already been hit in the head by the time the third shot was fired?

Mr. HUDSON - He had been hit twice, so Parkland Hospital said. He was hit in the neck one time and in the head one time.

Mr. LIEBELER - When the first shot was fired, were you looking at the presidential car then; could you see it then?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; it was coming around - it had just got around the corner,you see, from off of Houston Street, making that corner there, come off of Houston onto Elm.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did it look to you like the President was hit by the first shot?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir; I don't think so - I sure don't.

Mr. LIEBELER - You don't think he got hit by the first shot?

Mr. HUDSON - No.

Mr. LIEBELER - You say it was the second shot that hit him in the head?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. LIEBELER - And that it was 15 feet away at the time the third shot was fired.

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - I don't know how many feet it moved, but it moved quite a ways from the time the first shot was fired until the time the third shot was fired. I'm having trouble on this Exhibit No. 203 understanding how you could have been within 30 feet of the President's car when you took Commission Exhibit No. 203 and within 15 feet of the car when he was hit with the last shot in the head without having moved yourself. Now, you have previously indicated that you were right beside the President's car when he was hit in the head.

Mr. ALTGENS - Well, I was about 15 feet from it.

Mr. LIEBELER - But it was almost directly in front of you as it went down the street; isn't that right?

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER - So, it is clear from your testimony that the third shot--the last shot, rather--hit the President?

Mr. ALTGENS - Well, off and on we have been referring to the third shot and the fourth shot; but actually, it was the last shot, the shot did strike the President and there was no other sound like a shot that was made after that. I was just going to make a conclusion here, but that's not my place to do that, so I'll just forget it--what I was going to say.

Mr. ALTGENS - Well, it seems obvious now, when you think back on it--of course, at the time you don't reason these things out in a state of shock, but it seemed obvious to me afterwards that there wouldn't be another shot if the sniper saw what damage he did. He did enough damage to create enough attention to the fact that everybody knew he was firing a gun. Another shot would have truly given him away, because everybody was looking for him, but as I say, that's an obvious conclusion on my part, but there was not another shot fired after the President was struck in the head.

Mr. ALTGENS - Because as I said before---the way the bullet impact hit the President, it had to come from behind or beside the automobile in order to cause him to move forward a little bit and I didn't expect to find anything up in area, so that is why I was concentrating my observation back in this part, back in the Main---excuse me---back in the Houston-Elm intersection area to see if I could find the rifle.

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes. What made me almost certain that the shot came from behind was because at the time I was looking at the President, just as he was struck, it caused him to move a bit forward. He seemed as if at the time----well, he was in a position-- sort of immobile. He wasn't upright. He was at an angle but when it hit him, it seemed to have just lodged--it seemed as if he were hung up on a seat button or something like that. It knocked him just enough forward that he came right on down. There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing, so much so that it indicated to me that the shot came out of the left side of his head. Also, the fact that his head was covered with blood, the hairline included, on the left side all the way down, with no blood on his forehead or face--- suggested to me, too, that the shot came from the opposite side, meaning in the direction of this Depository Building, but at no time did I know for certain where the shot came from.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/exhibits/ce2112.htm

SS Agent Glen Bennett's handwritten notes:

"a second shot followed immediately and hit the right rear high of the boss's head"

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Report of SS Agent George Hicky:

At the moment he was almost sitting erect I heard two reports which I thought were shots and that appeared to me completely different in sound than the first report and were in such rapid succession that there seemed to be practically no time element between them. It looked to me as if the President was struck in the right upper rear of his head. The first shot of the second two seemed as if it missed because the hair on the right side of his head flew forward and there didn't seem to be any impact against his head. The last shot seemed to hit his head and cause a noise at the point of impact which made him fall forward and to his left again. - Possibly four or five seconds elapsed from the time of the first report and the last.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0449a.htm

"A picture was taken at each point from 0+00 to the 6+25 mark, except no picture was taken at 5+00 mark as this was about 4 feet from impact of the third shot."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Z-312/313 is located at stationing 4+65.

4-feet from 5+00 gives us stationing 4+96

4+96 minus 4+65 = 31 feet separation from the Z-312/313 head shot to the impact location of the third shot which was considerably farther down the street almost in front of Mr. Altgens, who was just a short distance from the third yellow mark on the curb.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is only as difficult as one wants to make it out to be!

[Thomas H. Purvis]

http://www.riflewarrior.com/case_of_the_impossible_shots.htm

Personally, I like what Craig Roberts has to say on the topic.

- lee

Perhaps Mr. Roberts should take the time to explain the difficulty in "leading" a target that is moving into your position while firing on a downward angle.

Mayhaps he can then explain how to estimate forward speed of vehicle (& target) and how much actual lead on the target must be taken, and then explain exactly how aiming at the target would be affected by the handrailing of the car which is directly in front of JBC, and then JBC himself.

Someone don't know xxxx!

One would have to lead to the extent of aiming at some point on JBC, in assumption that the vehicle speed/travel time in correlation to the elapsed time of flight for the bullet, would then place the target at the aiming point.

Only a complete idiot would attempt such a shot. Me thinks Mr. Roberts should attempt to shoot a quail or two, or a few doves and/or ducks.

And, this does not even take into consideration that everyone who was looking forward, would have then immediately looked UP, and no doubt spotted the firing position long before the opportunity to get off three shots occurred.

[Chuck Robbins]

In Farewell America, the author states:

President Kennedy's assassination was the work of magicians. It was a stage trick complete with accessories and false mirrors and when the curtain fell the actors, and even the scenery, disappeared. But the magicians were not illusionists but professionals, artists in their way.

The planning was obviously thourough. The route, motorcade, location etc, but how good were the shooters? Always wondered about this. Considering all the factors like range, speed of the target, size of target etc, I would be interested in the opinions of the experts on this like Al Carrier, Ryan Crowe and anyone else who has knowledge and experience in this field. I've never discharged a firearm myself.

Was this an ambush with an extreme degree of difficulty requiring world class marksmen? For argument's sake, I'm assuming three firing positions (TSBD, Daltex, fence). I know there is dispute about the number and locations of the gunmen, but with these assumptions what kind of expertise would be required? Could, for example, the three best shooters in the local gun clubs throughout the county have been equal to this task? Would they necessarily have required military training? How many marksmen were there in Texas, or America or the world who could have been up to this job. I'm guessing possibly thousands but I really don't have a clue.

Also, how would you rate their performance?

I am no expert, by any means, and the very first time I ever fired a 30.06 I was able to hit head sized objects, and smaller, very consistantly, at approximately 100 yards.

By reading the WC report you would think every Marine was possessed of enough shotting skills to pull off the job.

Rating the killers? They got the job done.

Chuck

[Chuck Robbins]

Mark;

Although fully aware that in all probability you (& most others) will neither accept nor believe it, for the record:

1. There was only ONE shooter.

2. Despite what many will state to the contrary, the 6.5mm Carcano Rifle (in relatively good condition), coupled with the WCC 6.5mm ammo, is a deadly combination.

Accuracy wise, the US Army Ballistics Research Laboratory compared the accuracy as being equivelant to our current US military weapons.

Armed with "match" quality weapons, the Italian Olympics Team had always done quite well and ranked quite high in Olympics Competition, with this weapon.

3. The planning was in fact quite thorough, which included the equi-distant yellow marks painted onto the curb of Elm Street through the "Kill Zone". Which, any shooter would easily recognize as "Range Markers".

Many will attempt to "Sell" this off as some sort of traffic control marking which was utilized by the Dallas Street Department.

Sounds good! However, since these yellow marks were painted only on the downrange & visible (from the TSDB) side of Elm St, and were exactly in the kill zone, and there were no other similar stripes painted onto the curbs of any other streets anywhere in the vicinity, then the "Traffic Control" scenario is a no-floater.

One could add to this the unconfirmed rumor that (I believe it was Jean Hill) got some of this yellow paint on her shoe, from it's being so freshly painted, and the purpose of these yellow marks becomes even more evident.

4. Were we to attempt to "stuff" all three shots fired in to the WC scenario with the Z-312/313 head shot being the Last/Final shot of the three, then the shooting sequence would obviously have to be rushed.

In that regard, exactly why would anyone believe much of anything as stated by the WC?

The Z-312/313 head shot being the SECOND shot, thereby gave the shooter, approximately 5.8 seconds from first shot to second shot.--------Run that one by your "Experts" and see how difficult they claim it is.

Thereafter, the THIRD/LAST/FINAL shot came about, just about as fast as the weapon could be operated, which is of course in the 2.3 (+/-) interval, for a total shooting time of approximately 8.1 to 8.4 seconds.

Give that data to any true "shooter", and you may find that all of the garbage relative to the impossibility of the shots will go back into the garbage can.

In conclusion, anyone who attempts to resolve the issues by searching for the mythical "multiple assassin", will, if age permits, be here for another 40 + years.

The shooting sequence was not difficult, even without the range markers/aka yellow stripes.

The weapon and ammo were entirely capable of the accuracy which it achieved, which by the way was a relatively short distance.

The "target" in moving away from the shooter, virtually guaranteed a "hit", however one must also note that the second shot/aka Z-312/313 shot to the Cowlick area of the back of the head almost went high.

Since you claim to not be a "shooter", then might I recommend that you read up on the works of those such as Ayoob Massad in "AMERICAN HANDGUNNER" magazine.

And, even the resident Chiropractor on the John McAdams site, with relatively little experience, has managed to get off three shots in the 5.8 to 5.9 second time of the WC scenario.

So, would the shooting sequence, as presented by the WC be somewhat difficult?------Yes

Exactly why was it that you believed this BS in the first place?

As a final comment, might I recommend the 10 pages of the WC "circular reasoning" which deals with the "SHOT THAT MISSED", when in fact, other than the fragment strike on the curbe (Tague), there is no indication of any shot having missed.

The "Magic Bullet" did not miss.----Neither is it CE399, as CE399 has not pulled a disappearing act.

Tom

Here's Hoover's version of the shooting event.

How in the world did Hoover come to the conclusion that Connally got in between the shooter and JFK?

He is saying JFK would have been shot 3 times, if Connally had not turned around, thereby placing himself between the shooter and JFK, right?

So, how do we have shots coming from the front, and from the rear, with only one shooter?

I know enough to know that nobody is ever going to admit what really happened in Dallas that day.

One thing is very clear. We are being lied to, have been lied to, and will continue to be lied to about that days events.

Once convinced of the truth of that statement....What else needs to be said regarding what happened in Texas that day?

Look where we are now. A Texan running our country into the ground.

Bleeding our economy, and mortgaging our very future, to overfill the pockets of people who already have more money than they know what to do with.

JFK was going to put an end to the Federal Reserve System.

He was ridding our nation of the parasites who print our "money", at no more cost to them than the price of ink and paper, and who then "loan" this worthless paper to our govt. at face value PLUS INTEREST!

Here's the trick... The interest being charged? It is never printed as money. The result? Never ending inflation.

We are now 8 trillion dollars in debt. The first Bush (with Reagan), for the first time in history, pushed us over the trillion dollar debt mark.

Do you like subsidizing the ultra rich by playing their shell game? I sure don't.

This is a train wreck in motion. When we collectively reach the end of the line, when other nations call in their markers, we have world war III.

Sorry for the rant.

Chuck

Edited February 10, 2006 by Chuck Robbins

[David G. Healy]

In Iraq, apparently we've a rising star, 60+ and he's not the only one...

[Chuck Robbins]

I would again recommend that one present the shot scenario as listed, to a TRULY qualified shootist and then ask the opinion.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree, with the proviso that you hand the TRULY qualified shootist, whoever that is, THE CARCANO IN QUESTION, and then ask him to duplicate the feat instead of saying how easy it is to do.

Chuck

[Mark Stapleton]

Thanks to those who have offered their opinions. Tom, your thoughts are appreciated but I really only wanted to determine the skill level which would be required of the team assuming there were three (or more) shooters.

Lee, the link is interesting. It's hard to disagree with the author's choosing the eastern end of the fence as the ideal shooting point. Target is approaching not receeding, it's a flat trajectory so the downward angle allowance becomes unnecessary and the car park and railroad yard deliver the all-important escape route. A trained sniper's opinion.

It's still not clear to me the skill level required to accomplish the ambush. Obviously they needed to be experienced shooters but did they need to be world class? Thanks to Pat and Chuck for the input.

The JFK assassination was a rare example of a long range execution. Most assassinations have been short range, as far as I'm aware. I think the assassination of Sadat in 1981 was probably mid-range (30 feet or so), ditto for MLK in 1967. It seems to me that the JFK hit would have been the most difficult of these modern assassinations to accomplish with certainty. Of course, the shooters within or on top of the buildings were long range. Shooters located behind the fence or elsewhere much shorter in range. Or to experienced snipers, would all this be considered quite a close range assignment?

Edited February 10, 2006 by Mark Stapleton

[Thomas H. Purvis]

In Farewell America, the author states:

President Kennedy's assassination was the work of magicians. It was a stage trick complete with accessories and false mirrors and when the curtain fell the actors, and even the scenery, disappeared. But the magicians were not illusionists but professionals, artists in their way.

The planning was obviously thourough. The route, motorcade, location etc, but how good were the shooters? Always wondered about this. Considering all the factors like range, speed of the target, size of target etc, I would be interested in the opinions of the experts on this like Al Carrier, Ryan Crowe and anyone else who has knowledge and experience in this field. I've never discharged a firearm myself.

Was this an ambush with an extreme degree of difficulty requiring world class marksmen? For argument's sake, I'm assuming three firing positions (TSBD, Daltex, fence). I know there is dispute about the number and locations of the gunmen, but with these assumptions what kind of expertise would be required? Could, for example, the three best shooters in the local gun clubs throughout the county have been equal to this task? Would they necessarily have required military training? How many marksmen were there in Texas, or America or the world who could have been up to this job. I'm guessing possibly thousands but I really don't have a clue.

Also, how would you rate their performance?

I am no expert, by any means, and the very first time I ever fired a 30.06 I was able to hit head sized objects, and smaller, very consistantly, at approximately 100 yards.

By reading the WC report you would think every Marine was possessed of enough shotting skills to pull off the job.

Rating the killers? They got the job done.

Chuck

Quite correct! Hard to argue with success.

As to the range:

Shot#1---------------------------------184 feet (+/-).

Shot#2--------------------------------242 feet (+/-).---This is the Z-312/313 headshot!

Shot#3--------------------------------294 feet (+/-).

Most teenage boys down here in the backwoods of Mississippi have killed deer at far greater ranges than this.

The only item which has ever made any of this appear difficult is in attempting to "squeeze" three shots into the time frame between shot#1 and shot#2.

Which is of course what the FBI attempted to do when they then took over responsibility for the "FACTS" of the assassination.

And, when Hoover's lie/attempt at manipulation of the facts was caught------We need the WC to straighten this out and explain it all.

Although the shooter (who in all probability was LHO) appears to have sighted at the oncoming Presidential Limousine as it came down Houston St., approaching the TSDB, for whatever reason, the decision to shoot was not made until after the turn onto Elm.

Perhaps the TSDB was chosen for this reason as it afforded the opportunity, if necessary, to shoot on approach, or after having passed the TSDB.

With the sunvisor flaps raised on the front of the Presidential Limousine, and the previously mentioned handrail grip, as well as JBC blocking most of the line of sight to JFK, waiting appears to have been the prudent answer.

Nevertheless, even highly inexperienced shooters such as Chad Zimmerman have managed to get off three rounds fired, even in the WC 5.8/5.9 second constraints.

There was nothing whatsoever difficult in achieving the actual results with the weapon and/or a semi-experienced lone shooter.