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Jim Hood Photograph: Why did the FBI confiscate it?


John Simkin
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Lee Forman said.

We have covered this in the past - a lot of detail should appear in several threads. The pools - plural, were seen by multiple witnesses. Potentially there were 3 separate pools witnessed.

1. Behind the retaining wall on the 'knoll'

2. Behind the walled walkway, on the sidewalk, in the Pergola Garden area

3. On the sidewalk along the Elm St extension, closer to the back of the TSBD.

2 of these pools can be found detailed on Don Roberdeau's plat.

Where can it be found?

Numerous eye-witness references to these pools can be found in Fetzer's MIDP.

On what pages I only found 1 reference to 1 pool Coley's on page 48.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0812694228...v=search-inside

The bloody piece of flesh may have been a piece of Kennedy's head - and indeed, it may have left a dripping trail, as per Couch's witness account - but I would hesitate to link that to all 3 pools.

Do you think it's possible that a piece of JFK's head could have ended up in any of those locations? Neither Couch nor nor Coley nor Anynesworth (I imagine) said anything about "a bloody piece of flesh". Couch said nothing about a bloody trail, at least not in the 2 pages Jack provided.

Odd Couch says he was there with another photographer. The President has just been shot they are close by and they see cops running with guns drawn like they are chasing someone, they see an 8 - 10 inch pool of blood and neither one takes a single photo. When was the first time Couch claims to have seen this, 10+ years after the fact? Was the 2nd photographer ever found?

The dead SS man reports come to mind - but clearly, something occurred that was not publicly reported on.

How well documented are these reports? Was the dead SS agent supposed to have been in one of those spot's? Would it make sense for one to be in one of those locations? If as the theory goes the pool of blood was from an accidental victim of a lost bullet: 1) It would be a huge coincidence if the victim was an SS agent esp. considering the location 2) IIRC all three locations are above where JFK was so the errant sniper was shooting up? Up from where?

According to Fetzer's MIDP there were only 28 SS agents in Dallas and none were on the "grass knoll" Pg. 49

Even JC Price's affidavit comes to mind.

Care to elaborate?

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What book is the photo from?

Where was it taken and when and who took it?

What confirmation is there that the men were cops and that what they were looking at was blood?

Who did Coley's wife tell she recieved the phone calls?

The journalist, Wallace O. Chariton, in 1990.

What did he say, she said they said?

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It's a frame from a video:

The small image is from the same video, it is quite obvious to me that they are cops, the guy carrying the coat is one of the top cops because he has the WHITE hat only issued to higher ranking officers..

I NEVER said the pool was BLOOD.

Edited by Robin Unger
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Lee Forman said.

We have covered this in the past - a lot of detail should appear in several threads. The pools - plural, were seen by multiple witnesses. Potentially there were 3 separate pools witnessed.

1. Behind the retaining wall on the 'knoll'

2. Behind the walled walkway, on the sidewalk, in the Pergola Garden area

3. On the sidewalk along the Elm St extension, closer to the back of the TSBD.

2 of these pools can be found detailed on Don Roberdeau's plat.

Where can it be found?

Numerous eye-witness references to these pools can be found in Fetzer's MIDP.

On what pages I only found 1 reference to 1 pool Coley's on page 48.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0812694228...v=search-inside

The bloody piece of flesh may have been a piece of Kennedy's head - and indeed, it may have left a dripping trail, as per Couch's witness account - but I would hesitate to link that to all 3 pools.

Do you think it's possible that a piece of JFK's head could have ended up in any of those locations? Neither Couch nor nor Coley nor Anynesworth (I imagine) said anything about "a bloody piece of flesh". Couch said nothing about a bloody trail, at least not in the 2 pages Jack provided.

Odd Couch says he was there with another photographer. The President has just been shot they are close by and they see cops running with guns drawn like they are chasing someone, they see an 8 - 10 inch pool of blood and neither one takes a single photo. When was the first time Couch claims to have seen this, 10+ years after the fact? Was the 2nd photographer ever found?

The dead SS man reports come to mind - but clearly, something occurred that was not publicly reported on.

How well documented are these reports? Was the dead SS agent supposed to have been in one of those spot's? Would it make sense for one to be in one of those locations? If as the theory goes the pool of blood was from an accidental victim of a lost bullet: 1) It would be a huge coincidence if the victim was an SS agent esp. considering the location 2) IIRC all three locations are above where JFK was so the errant sniper was shooting up? Up from where?

According to Fetzer's MIDP there were only 28 SS agents in Dallas and none were on the "grass knoll" Pg. 49

Even JC Price's affidavit comes to mind.

Care to elaborate?

No - I don't. Why should I provide all of this for your edification? Do your own work. I was only trying to be helpful.

- lee

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http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/lofivers....php/t2748.html

Len,

That response was a bit short. The above link covers some discussion on the 'pools.'

We have covered this in the past - a lot of detail should appear in several threads. The pools - plural, were seen by multiple witnesses. Potentially there were 3 separate pools witnessed.

1. Behind the retaining wall on the 'knoll'

2. Behind the walled walkway, on the sidewalk, in the Pergola Garden area

3. On the sidewalk along the Elm St extension, closer to the back of the TSBD.

2 of these pools can be found detailed on Don Roberdeau's plat.

Where can it be found?

http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/DP.jpg

Numerous eye-witness references to these pools can be found in Fetzer's MIDP.

On what pages I only found 1 reference to 1 pool Coley's on page 48.

Correct - Coley, Mulkey and Hood. The L'Hoste piece is contained in the Couch WR testimony.

Mr. COUCH - Well, uh - as best I can recall, the excitement on the ground of the people running and policemen "revving" up their motorcycles - and I have a real nice shot of a policeman running toward me with his pistol drawn - the activity on the ground kept my attention. The reason I did not stay and take pictures of the Depository Building - which I had originally intended to do when I got out of the motorcade - was that - uh - another cameraman from our station, A.J. L'Hoste - [spelling] L-'-H-o-s-t-e - he came running up and - uh - when he ran up, why I said, "you stay here and get some shots of the building and go inside - and I'm going to go back - I'm going to follow the President."

Mr. BELIN - All right. Was he also a moving picture cameraman?

Mr. COUCH - Yes; right.

Mr. BELIN - Where was he at the time you made this statement?

Mr. COUCH - Uh - he was standing on that little sidewalk that runs between the - I met him on the little sidewalk between the Book Depository property and the beginning of the parkway.

Mr. BELIN - That would be the west side of the Depository Building?

Mr. COUCH - That's right; that's right. It's there that I saw blood on the sidewalk.

Mr. BELIN - All right. Now, you say you saw blood on the sidewalk, Mr. Couch?

Mr. COUCH - That's right.

Mr. BELIN - Where was that?

Mr. COUCH - This was the little walkway - steps and walkway that leads up to the corner, the west corner, the southwest corner of the book Depository Building. Another little sidewalk, as I recall, turns west and forms that little parkway and archway right next to the Book Depository Building.

Mr. BELIN - Did this appear to be freshly created blood?

Mr. COUCH - Yes; right.

Mr. BELIN - About how large was this spot of blood that you saw?

Mr. COUCH - Uh - from 8 to 10 inches in diameter.

Mr. BELIN - Did people around there say how it happened to get there, or not?

Mr. COUCH - No; no one knew. People were watching it - that is watching it carefully and walking and pointing to it. Uh - just as I ran up, policemen ran around the west corner and ran - uh - northward on the side of the building. And my first impression was that - uh - that they had chased someone out of the building around that corner, or possibly they had wounded someone. All of those policemen had their pistols pulled. And people were pointing back around those shrubs and that west corner and - uh - you would think that there was a chase going on in that direction.

Again, the reason that I didn't follow was because A.J. had come up, and my first concern was to get back with the President.

Mr. BELIN - This pool of blood - about how far would it have been north of the curbline of Elm Street as Elm Street goes under the expressway?

Mr. COUCH - I'd say - uh - well, from Elm Street, you mean, itself?

Mr. BELIN - Yes. This is from that part of Elm Street that goes into the expressway?

Mr. COUCH - I'd say - uh - 50 to 60 feet, and about 10 to 15 feet from the corner of the Texas Depository Building.

Mr. BELIN - It would be somewhere along that park area there?

Mr. COUCH - Right.

Mr. BELIN - Was there anything else you noticed by this pool of blood?

Mr. COUCH - No. There were no objects on the ground. We looked for something. We thought there would be something else, but -

Mr. BELIN - There was nothing?

Mr. COUCH - Huh -uh.

Mr. BELIN - Now this A. J. -?

Mr. COUCH - L'Hote. That's "L" apostrophe.

Mr. BELIN - Yes; I have that. I have made a note of the spelling, along with the phonetic sound.

Do you know if he got any pictures of the south side of the School Book Depository?

Mr. COUCH - No; I don't recall what he got - as I recall - now, I may be wrong, this is a guess - he did not take any pictures.

Mr. BELIN - He did not take any?

Mr. COUCH - No.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0812694228...v=search-inside

The bloody piece of flesh may have been a piece of Kennedy's head - and indeed, it may have left a dripping trail, as per Couch's witness account - but I would hesitate to link that to all 3 pools.

Do you think it's possible that a piece of JFK's head could have ended up in any of those locations? Neither Couch nor nor Coley nor Anynesworth (I imagine) said anything about "a bloody piece of flesh". Couch said nothing about a bloody trail, at least not in the 2 pages Jack provided.

I do not think a piece of Kennedy's head could have landed in any of those locations, and I did not think I implied that.

JFK Shooting Recalled

Local Resident, Former TV Reporter Remembers Kennedy Assassination

Couch's Memories Remain Clear 37 Years Later

CLIFTON - Mal Couch, a citizen of the Womack community, and a former television reporter and cameraman for ABC-TV in Dallas, can remember Nov. 22, 1963, like it was yesterday.

[...]

"At the scene, people were still lying on the ground, some protecting their children. Others were running. Policemen were scattering in every direction with shotguns and pistols drawn.

"I started toward the building where I had seen the rifle in the window. Then I saw something very weird. There was a trail of blood from the spot where the shooting occurred to the entrance of the Texas School Book Depository. I pointed it out to a man with me.

"Just then an FBI man stepped out of the building, and in his hand was an object dripping blood. It looked like a piece of hairy flesh. I know I didn't imagine this. The scene is very clear to me."

Odd Couch says he was there with another photographer. The President has just been shot they are close by and they see cops running with guns drawn like they are chasing someone, they see an 8 - 10 inch pool of blood and neither one takes a single photo. When was the first time Couch claims to have seen this, 10+ years after the fact? Was the 2nd photographer ever found?

No on the first question - I do not know on the 2nd - L'Hoste.

The testimony of Malcolm O. Couch was taken at 9:43 a.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Texas., by Mr. David W. Belin. Assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

The dead SS man reports come to mind - but clearly, something occurred that was not publicly reported on.

How well documented are these reports? Was the dead SS agent supposed to have been in one of those spot's? Would it make sense for one to be in one of those locations? If as the theory goes the pool of blood was from an accidental victim of a lost bullet: 1) It would be a huge coincidence if the victim was an SS agent esp. considering the location 2) IIRC all three locations are above where JFK was so the errant sniper was shooting up? Up from where?

They appeared in newspapers. Vince Salandria has done quite a lot on this subject. There is also a reference which I have not been able to find, in which one SS agent reports that SAIC Sorrels had deputized agents on the knoll. Hearsay, but interesting.

According to Fetzer's MIDP there were only 28 SS agents in Dallas and none were on the "grass knoll" Pg. 49

Even JC Price's affidavit comes to mind.

Care to elaborate?

I saw one man run towards the passenger cars on the railroad siding after the volley of shots. This man had a white dress shirt, no tie and kahki [sic] colored trousers. His hair appeared to be long and dark and his agility running could be about 35 yrs [sic] of age. He had something in his hand. I couldn't be sure but it may have been a head piece

Perhaps someone left with a souvenir.

The source that provided me with the info on the FBI agent said that he arrived approximately 10 minutes after the shooting. He then nearly parked his car over one of the pools of blood - obviously that can't be the one at the retaining wall or walled walkway - I do not know the name of the source, and my source didn't seem to recall the details.

- lee

post-675-1139893767_thumb.jpg

Edited by Lee Forman
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Vince Drain

http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/history/the_d...need/Drain.html

I wasn't up close to the body, but I could see fairly well the large amount of blood from the head wound. The head was badly damaged from the lower right base across the top extending across the top of the ear. It appeared to me as though the bullet traveled upward and had taken off the right portion of his skull. It may have been the security officer or one of the other officers who gave me a portion of the skull which was about the size of a teacup, much larger than a silver dollar. [Note from Larry Sneed: This skull fragment sounds very much like the fragment discovered by motorcycle patrolman Bobby Joe Dale. See Dale narrative, page 136.] Apparently the explosion had jerked it because the hair was still on it. I carried that back to Washington later that night and turned it over to the FBI laboratory.

Bobby Joe Dale

http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/03/VP/vp-skull-frags.txt

BOBBY JOE DALE:"No More Silence" by Larry Sneed (1998), pp.

132-141+photos---[pp.

135-136]"…the President was on the gurney beside the car, and they were

wheeling him in. At

that time, it was obvious that nobody could have survived a wound like

that…Blood and matter

was everywhere inside the car including a bone fragment which was oblong

shaped, probably an

inch to an inch and a half long by three-quarters of an inch wide. As I

turned it over and looked

at it, I determined that it came from some part of the forehead because

there was hair on it

which appeared to be near the hairline. There were other fragments

around, but that was the

largest piece that grabbed my attention. What stood out in my mind was

that there was makeup

up to the hairline. Apparently he had used makeup for the cameras to

knock down the glare. It

was fairly distinct where it stopped and the wrap of skin took up. Other

than that, nobody

messed with anything inside the car in any manner, shape, or form.

Nobody said, "Clean this

up!" We then put the top up and secured it.";

Seymour Weitzman

Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes, sir; other officers, Secret Service as well, and somebody started, there was something red in the street and I went back over the wall and somebody brought me a piece of what he thought to be a firecracker and it turned out to be, I believe, I wouldn't quote this, but I turned it over to one of the Secret Service men and I told them it should go to the lab because it looked to me like human bone. I later found out it was supposedly a portion of the President's skull.

Mr. BALL - That you picked up off the street?

Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes.

Mr. BALL - What part of the street did you pick this up?

Mr. WEITZMAN - As the President's car was going off, it would be on the left-hand side of the street. It would be the----

Mr. BALL - The left-hand side facing----

Mr. WEITZMAN - That would be the south side of the street.

Mr. BALL - It was on the south side of the street. Was it in the street?

Mr. WEITZMAN - It was in the street itself.

Mr. BALL - On the pavement?

Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Anywhere near the curb?

Mr. WEITZMAN - Approximately, oh, I would say 8 to 12 inches from the curb, something like that.

Mr. BALL - Off the record.

(Off record discussion.)

...

Mr. BALL - Didn't you, when you went over to the railroad yard, talk to some yardman?

Mr. WEITZMAN - I asked a yardman if he had seen or heard anything during the passing of the President. He said he thought he saw somebody throw something through a bush and that's when I went back over the fence and that's when I found the portion of the skull. I thought it was a firecracker portion; that's what we first were looking for. This was before we knew the President was dead.

There was also what may have been a blob of brain matter on the south side of Elm as well, where all of the skull fragments [except those recovered inside the Lincoln] were found.

William Harper found the large bone fragment on the grass on the South Side of Elm that day after the assassination.

Jean Hill saw a pool of red which she later 'learned' was a sno-cone - just like she later discovered that Jackie couldn't have been looking at a small dog, she and Mary would have been close to the area of the bullet strike seen in the newspaper - despite that fact that this was ~120 feet away towards the underpass, and just as she didn't see anyone return fire.

Theorizing:

- The pools of blood were most likely not connected to the fragments of skull and bloody tissue.

- The FBI agent seen by Couch in his recollection many years later, may have been holding yet another piece of scalp, or scalp attached to bone fragment - similar to the one referenced by Vince Drain. If the size of the piece recovered by Weitzman was the size of a firecracker, one would assume that it was not the same piece.

- A French man, who may have been posing as Press, may have been stabbed in one of the 2 bloody pool locations. I wonder if any of the nearby Dallas hospitals [not Parkland] have their records from 11/22.

- The man seen by JC Price running from the scene with a 'head piece' may have been running off with a 'trophy.'

The last two were simply something I heard someplace. Nothing documented. However on the last, since we would be dealing with professional killers - I don't know that it's all that hard to swallow. The man would have had to have either crossed Elm from North to South and then back again, or come from the South and headed North, in order to retrieve the fragment, since it appears that this was where the other pieces landed.

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  • 2 weeks later...

John: Joan Mellon claims that Hugh Aynesworth had ties to both the CIA and the FBI. Do you agree? If so

might that have any berring on his role in relation to this photo, and the poop of blood story?

She also claims that he was in a position to be blackmailed: an FBI report says that "Aynesworth

was caught in bed with he wife of an ex-convict, the irate husband then stabbing him in

the neck. The FBI placed this document in a Lee Harvery Oswald file" (AFTJ p.151)

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We have discussed this before.

Jack White and Lee Forman are both right,

and their were two big pools of blood around the

kill zone ......... one between EMMETT HUDSON and the

NIX GUNMAN position

right near the BLACK DOG MAN, in fact,

and another where the tramps were.

This first blood has been explained to me as the

result of securing the salient between the

knoll and the headshot/braking area.

The men with EMMETT HUDSON who have

never come forward or been named were

clearing this area during the approach,

and stabbed the french "reporter"

who was there, like the others to

record, secure and even "abort" the mission

if necessary.

Some say a gunman in the book depository shot the

person in the NIX/BDM/Coke bottle area of the knoll.

One member of the team shot another member during the

triangulated fire, as part of the last minute security.

More likely is that someone stabbed a spook to clear the fence area

before the limousines came by.............

The blood around the depository "tramps" fenceline is probably

similar in origin....special ops guys using the silent knife to

remove witnesses and interlopers...........perhaps.

shanet

Edited by Shanet Clark
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John: Joan Mellon claims that Hugh Aynesworth had ties to both the CIA and the FBI. Do you agree? If so

might that have any berring on his role in relation to this photo, and the poop of blood story?

Yes. Aynesworth led the attacks on Mark Lane and his book Rush to Judgement. In May, 1967 Aynesworth published a critical article of Jim Garrison in Newsweek: "Garrison's tactics have been even more questionable than his case. I have evidence that one of the strapping D.A.'s investigators offered an unwilling "witness" $3,000 and a job with an airline - if only he would "fill in the facts" of the alleged meeting to plot the death of the President. I also know that when the D.A.'s office learned that this entire bribery attempt had been tape-recorded, two of Garrison's men returned to the "witness" and, he says, threatened him with physical harm."

This was untrue but it was part of a CIA smear campaign against Garrison. I invited Aynesworth to join the forum to discuss his book, JFK: Breaking the News (2003) but he refused. Very sensible.

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John: Joan Mellon claims that Hugh Aynesworth had ties to both the CIA and the FBI. Do you agree? If so

might that have any berring on his role in relation to this photo, and the poop of blood story?

Yes. Aynesworth led the attacks on Mark Lane and his book Rush to Judgement. In May, 1967 Aynesworth published a critical article of Jim Garrison in Newsweek: "Garrison's tactics have been even more questionable than his case. I have evidence that one of the strapping D.A.'s investigators offered an unwilling "witness" $3,000 and a job with an airline - if only he would "fill in the facts" of the alleged meeting to plot the death of the President. I also know that when the D.A.'s office learned that this entire bribery attempt had been tape-recorded, two of Garrison's men returned to the "witness" and, he says, threatened him with physical harm."

This was untrue but it was part of a CIA smear campaign against Garrison. I invited Aynesworth to join the forum to discuss his book, JFK: Breaking the News (2003) but he refused. Very sensible.

It has been alleged by James DiEugenio that Aynesworth applied for a position with CIA about a month prior to the assassination, but was turned down.

I have an e-mail from Aynesworth's friend Gary Mack, sent to me about seven years ago, in which he admits that he is frightened of Aynesworth. Can't imagine why, but surely food for thought to those of us who might be inclined to ask Aynesworth some critical questions.

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  • 1 month later...

Another witness who saw the pool of blood on the steps of the Grassy Knoll.

Mr. SPECTER - You just had the general impression that shots were coming from the knoll?

Mrs. HILL - Yes.

Mr. SPECTER - And you had the general impression that the Secret Service was firing the second group of shots at the man who fired the first group of shots?

Mrs. HILL - That's right.

Mr. SPECTER - But you had no specific impression as to the source of those shots?

Mrs. HILL - No.

Mr. SPECTER - Did you get a very good look at that man, who you say was starting to run?

Mrs. HILL - Well, as I said, when I looked down at this red stuff on the ground, I said, "Oh," you know, to myself, "they hit him." You know, I was going to follow that, and when I looked up again, I looked all around and I couldn't see him anywhere and I kept running toward the train tracks and I looked all around out there and I couldn't see him---I looked everywhere and I heard someone yelling something about---it was just this voice that was yelling, "It looks like he got. away," or something---I thought I had been right, you know, that he had really gone up there and he had gotten away some way in the tracks or had gone around behind the Depository, and so, I didn't know where he had gone. By that time I saw policemen---where he had gone. By that time I saw policemen---some were coming off of their motorcycles just around the curb here just at the underpass here, and of course, the motorcade sped away and. the policemen were coming from all sorts of different directions, people were closing in, and all I could think of was, "I want to get out of here fast. I don't want to be caught by anybody. I don't want to be in on anything," and every-time anybody would come toward me I would go another way until I got off of that hill back up there where the tracks were.

Mr. SPECTER - Did you run up toward the hill?

Mrs. HILL - Yes; I ran up toward the railroad tracks.

Mr. SPECTER - Let me draw the triple underpass there, and you ran up to what point-where? About the point of "D" here?

Mrs. HILL - Yes.

Mr. SPECTER - Why did you run up there after the man?

Mrs. HILL - I was still looking for him. I didn't know where he had gone. I heard lots of people yelling, "Did he get away, did he get away, and which way did he go."

Mr. SPECTER - You were trying to catch him?

Mrs. HILL - Yes.

Mr. SPECTER - But you couldn't find him any more?

Mrs. HILL - No; I just couldn't find him again. When I stopped to look down at the grass, at this red stuff and when I looked back up, by that time everyone was screaming and moving around.

Mr. SPECTER - And where were you when you looked down at the ground? Point it-out to me on the diagram.

Mrs. HILL - The steps that go up to this colonnade thing right there and I saw it right about here.

Mr. SPECTER - Well, mark it with the letter "E" there.

Mrs. HILL - All right.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/hill_j.htm

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Another witness who saw the pool of blood on the steps of the Grassy Knoll.

Unfortunately, the Hill Exhibit is practically worthless [crop attached]. It's a shame that Hill wasn't asked soon after to plot out these references on an aerial photo, or a surveyor's map, etc. 'E' indicates the location of the pool of blood seen by Hill.

A - Starting position

X - Kennedy's location

B - Hill's position when she noticed the man running [same man allegedly seen by Worrell?]

C - the man Hill saw running

The circle represents the area from which Hill believed the shots came from.

- lee

Mr. SPECTER - Would you draw a diagram for me in rough outline, starting with Houston Street---

Mrs. HILL - Yes; but I can't do this very well.

Mr. SPECTER - Permit me to draw an outline, then, to get your bearing here and realizing that I want your recollection, and I'll ask you the questions. Assume that Houston Street is the street which I am marking Houston. Assume that this is Main Street. Assume that Elm Street curves down in the manner that I am drawing and marking.

Mrs. HILL - All right.

Mr. SPECTER - Assume that the Texas School Book Depository is this large building which I will mark "TSBD." Now, would you place with the letter "A" where you were at the time the President went by?

Mrs. HILL - Well, I would have to place the President first.

Mr. SPECTER - Fine---place him with the letter "X".

Mrs. HILL - All right--if he were here---

Mr. SPECTER - Now, was he in the center of the street or on the side of the street?

Mrs. HILL - He was on the side he wasn't just completely over there, but he was past the center of the street and we were---

Mr. SPECTER - Now, place yourself with the letter "A".

Mrs. HILL - Right there [indicating].

Mr. SPECTER - Make it a big printed "A" for us.

Mrs. HILL - Okay. [Complied with request of counsel Specter.]

Mr. SPECTER - Now, would you place the position you ran to after the President's car went by?

Mrs. HILL - By that time, I'm sure the car was here it was on down a little way and I ran behind here.

Mr. SPECTER - Draw a line to where you ran.

Mrs. HILL - All right--I don't know whether I've got this just right--but I ran approximately right up through here.

Mr. SPECTER - Put a "B" here where you were when you came to a stop on the other side of the street.

Mrs. HILL - These steps.

Mr. SPECTER - Now, where were you when you first noticed the

Mrs. HILL - These steps that go up--I guess you've looked at the site, there are some steps down there that go up to that promenade, or whatever you call it.

Mr. SPECTER - That go in a generally westerly direction?

Mrs. HILL - Yes.

Mr. SPECTER - Beyond the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mrs. HILL - Yes; and I was just on this side

Mr. SPECTER - "This side"---you are meaning---the east of it?

Mrs. HILL - The east of it.

Mr. SPECTER - Were you beyond the westernmost point of the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mrs. HILL - No.

Mr. SPECTER - You were still in front of that building?

Mrs. HILL - That's right.

Mr. SPECTER - Now, is the letter "B" now in the position where you were when you first saw that man?

Mrs. HILL - Yes.

Mr. SPECTER - Where was that man, indicating with the letter "C," where he was? He was very close to you?

Mrs. HILL - Well, he was at the top of this hill---you don't leave me any space in here I mean, there's a distance in here greater than what is shown here.

Mr. SPECTER - He was between Elm Street and the Depository Building?

Mrs. HILL - Yes.

Mr. SPECTER - And where did you see him going?

Mrs. HILL - I saw him go toward the tracks, toward the railroad tracks to the west?

Mr. SPECTER - What did you observe about that man, if anything?

Mrs. HILL - That he just had on a brown overcoat and a hat.

Mr. SPECTER - Why was your attention attracted to him?

Mrs. HILL - Because he was the only thing moving up there. The other people were all grief stricken and standing there and I don't know what I would have done with 'him when I got up there, but I don't know why I even had the instinct to run, and I don't know that it is anything even connected with this, but since I had already---I have told it and it is part of my recollection, I am just stating it again.

Mr. SPECTER - Well, was there anything about the man that attracted your attention to him beside the fact that he was moving?

Mrs. HILL - I just thought at the time that's the man that did it.

Mr. SPECTER - Why did you think that this was the man that did it?

Mrs. HILL - I just don't know--I mean-that was my thought.

Mr. SPECTER - Did you see any weapon in his hand?

Mrs. HILL - No; I never saw a weapon during the whole time, in anyone's hand.

Mr. SPECTER - Did you see that man from the front?

Mrs. HILL - As well as I remember, now, when I saw him he was turning and going to the west.

Mr. SPECTER - Was he in the process of turning when you first saw him?

Mrs. HILL - Yes; I would say he was turning.

Mr. SPECTER - So that you had some view of his front part of his body?

Mrs. HILL - Yes.

Mr. SPECTER - And did you see any weapon at that time?

Mrs. HILL - No, sir; he was three-fourths turned by the time I did see him.

Mr. SPECTER - Could you see both of his hands at that time?

Mrs. HILL - No.

Mr. SPECTER - Could you see one of his hands at that time?

Mrs. HILL - No; I do not even remember seeing his hands.

Mr. SPECTER - I mean, if he was turning, his hands would have been visible, wouldn't they?

Mrs. HILL - They surely would have been.

Mr. SPECTER - So, what you are saying is, you don't have any recollection of seeing his hands?

Mrs. HILL - I have no recollection--that's right.

Mr. SPECTER - But from the position of his body, his hands would have been in the position where they could have been observed?

Mrs. HILL - That's right--surely.

Mr. SPECTER - And do you have any recollection of observing any weapon in either hand?

Mrs. HILL - No; I never saw a weapon the whole time.

Mr. SPECTER - Had you moved from point "A" at the time you first saw him?

Mrs. HILL - That's the reason I ran across the street.

Mr. SPECTER - Did you see him while you were at point "A"?

Mrs. HILL - Do you mean prior to the shots? Yes; I saw him, that's the reason why I went across the street.

Mr. SPECTER - So, you saw him when you were at point "A"?

Mrs. HILL - That's right-that's the reason I left that spot.

Mr. SPECTER - And he was at point "C" when you first saw him?

Mrs. HILL - That's right.

Mr. SPECTER - Did he move before you moved?

Mrs. HILL - His moving made me start after him.

Mr. SPECTER - So, he did move before you moved?

Mrs. HILL - Yes; and as I came across the street--as I said---I never did see Mrs. Kennedy get up or anything, because when I ran across the street, the first motorcycle that was fight behind her nearly hit me turning around, because I looked up in his face and he was looking all around.

Mr. SPECTER - You mean the policeman?

Mrs. HILL - Yes; and I don't think he ever did see me. I Just looked at him and dodged then because I thought his wheel was going to hit me, and I don't think he ever did see me, and I ran across through there and started up the hill. When I looked down on the ground, I mean, as I was running up the hill to catch that man, I looked down and saw some red stuff and I thought, "Oh, they got him, he's bleeding," and this is embarrassing, but it turned out to be Koolade or some sort of red drink.

Mr. SPECTER - You thought they had gotten the man who was running away?

Mrs. HILL - Yes.

Mr. SPECTER - You thought that perhaps the second burst of shots you heard were being directed toward him by the Secret Service?

Mrs. HILL - I Just thought, "Oh, goodness, the Secret Service is shooting back."

Mr. SPECTER - Can you describe what that man looked like?

Mrs. HILL - He wasn't

Mr. SPECTER - How tall was he?

Mrs. HILL - He wasn't very tall.

Mr. SPECTER - Was he more than 5 feet tall, or can you give me any meaningful description of him?

Mrs. HILL - Well, yes; but I don't want to.

Mr. SPECTER - Why is that?

Mrs. HILL - Well, because I had told several people and I also said it that day down there and the person that I described, and I am fully aware that his whereabouts have been known at all times, and that it seems that I am merely using a figure and converting it to my story, but the person that I saw looked a lot like---I would say the general build as I would think Jack Ruby would from that position. But I have talked with the FBI about this and I told them I realized that his whereabouts had been covered at all times and of course I didn't---at that time I didn't realize that the shots were coming from the building. I frankly thought they were coming from the knoll.

Mr. SPECTER - Why did you think they were coming from the knoll?

Mrs. HILL - That was just my idea where they were coming from.

Mr. SPECTER - Would you draw the knoll on the picture, where you mean by the knoll?

Mrs. HILL - This area in front of the Book Depository---it's right here.

Mr. SPECTER - Just draw me a circle as to where you had a general impression the shots were coming from.

Mrs. HILL - This is a hill and it was like they were coming from right in there. That's when I looked up and saw that man and all the rest of the people were stunned and not moving in that area and yet he was getting out of there--I thought that probably he had done it, and so I went to catch him, for some reason.

Mr. SPECTER - Now, did you have a conscious impression of the source of the first shot that you heard, that is, where it came from?

Mrs. HILL - Well, evidently I didn't because the only conscious recollection I have of that---I mean---until all this other came out---I had always thought that they came from the knoll.

Mr. SPECTER - Did you have any conscious impression of where the second shot came from?

Mrs. HILL - No.

Mr. SPECTER - Any conscious impression of where this third shot came from?

Mrs. HILL - Not any different from any of them. I thought it was just people shooting from the knoll---I did think there was more than one person shooting.

Mr. SPECTER - You did think there was more than one person shooting?

Mrs. HILL - Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER - What made you think that?

Mrs. HILL - The way the 'gun report sounded and the difference in the way they were fired-the timing.

Mr. SPECTER - What was your impression as to the source of the second group of shots which you have described as the fourth, perhaps the fifth, and perhaps the sixth shot?

Mrs. HILL - Well, nothing, except that I thought that they were fired by someone else.

Mr. SPECTER - And did you have any idea where they were coming from?

Mrs. HILL - No; as I said, I thought they were coming from the general direction of that knoll.

Mr. SPECTER - Well, did you think that the Secret Service was firing them from that knoll?

Mrs. HILL - I said I didn't know-I really don't.

Mr. SPECTER - You just had the general impression that shots were coming from the knoll?

Mrs. HILL - Yes.

Mr. SPECTER - And you had the general impression that the Secret Service was firing the second group of shots at the man who fired the first group of shots?

Mrs. HILL - That's right.

Mr. SPECTER - But you had no specific impression as to the source of those shots?

Mrs. HILL - No.

Mr. SPECTER - Did you get a very good look at that man, who you say was starting to run?

Mrs. HILL - Well, as I said, when I looked down at this red stuff on the ground, I said, "Oh," you know, to myself, "they hit him." You know, I was going to follow that, and when I looked up again, I looked all around and I couldn't see him anywhere and I kept running toward the train tracks and I looked all around out there and I couldn't see him---I looked everywhere and I heard someone yelling something about---it was just this voice that was yelling, "It looks like he got. away," or something---I thought I had been right, you know, that he had really gone up there and he had gotten away some way in the tracks or had gone around behind the Depository, and so, I didn't know where he had gone. By that time I saw policemen---where he had gone. By that time I saw policemen---some were coming off of their motorcycles just around the curb here just at the underpass here, and of course, the motorcade sped away and. the policemen were coming from all sorts of different directions, people were closing in, and all I could think of was, "I want to get out of here fast. I don't want to be caught by anybody. I don't want to be in on anything," and every-time anybody would come toward me I would go another way until I got off of that hill back up there where the tracks were.

Mr. SPECTER - Did you run up toward the hill?

Mrs. HILL - Yes; I ran up toward the railroad tracks.

Mr. SPECTER - Let me draw the triple underpass there, and you ran up to what point-where? About the point of "D" here?

Mrs. HILL - Yes.

Mr. SPECTER - Why did you run up there after the man?

Mrs. HILL - I was still looking for him. I didn't know where he had gone. I heard lots of people yelling, "Did he get away, did he get away, and which way did he go."

Mr. SPECTER - You were trying to catch him?

Mrs. HILL - Yes.

Mr. SPECTER - But you couldn't find him any more?

Mrs. HILL - No; I just couldn't find him again. When I stopped to look down at the grass, at this red stuff and when I looked back up, by that time everyone was screaming and moving around.

Mr. SPECTER - And where were you when you looked down at the ground? Point it-out to me on the diagram.

Mrs. HILL - The steps that go up to this colonnade thing right there and I saw it right about here.

Mr. SPECTER - Well, mark it with the letter "E" there.

post-675-1143520235_thumb.jpg

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  • 1 year later...

Photographer Malcolm Couch testified about finding a pool

of blood also. From his description, this is where it was IMO.

Good stuff, Jack.

Given that, this alleged pool of blood would have been just out of shot in the Tramps image, the one where they are being passed by the Ed Lansdale possible. This character would be heading directly toward where the blood would have been.

BTW, I have always wondered if this unexplained stain on the Tall Tramp's trousers could be blood.

James

It looks to me like he peed himself, keeping in character as a hobo. He's got a smirk on his face, so he can't be in pain.

Kathy

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