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Michael Collins Piper: Final Judgment


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Could you describe the key pieces of evidence that makes you believe that Israel was behind the assassination of John F. Kennedy?

John -There are now 2 cross threads relating to Piper and his book, wouldn't it be better to combine them into one? Tim already directed a question to him on the other thread. You could move the old thread over here to the books section. You could then edit your first post of the old thread to add a link to a new post on page 13 where you ask him the question above. IMO that would be the best solution.

Len

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Could you describe the key pieces of evidence that makes you believe that Israel was behind the assassination of John F. Kennedy?

John -There are now 2 cross threads relating to Piper and his book, wouldn't it be better to combine them into one? Tim already directed a question to him on the other thread. You could move the old thread over here to the books section. You could then edit your first post of the old thread to add a link to a new post on page 13 where you ask him the question above. IMO that would be the best solution.

Len

This is part of the book section where authors defend their writings. The other thread, taken over by Tim Gratz and now appears to be about his views on Michael Collins Piper's political opinions and judgements on the Second World War.

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Could you describe the key pieces of evidence that makes you believe that Israel was behind the assassination of John F. Kennedy?

John -There are now 2 cross threads relating to Piper and his book, wouldn't it be better to combine them into one? Tim already directed a question to him on the other thread. You could move the old thread over here to the books section. You could then edit your first post of the old thread to add a link to a new post on page 13 where you ask him the question above. IMO that would be the best solution.

Len

This is part of the book section where authors defend their writings. The other thread, taken over by Tim Gratz and now appears to be about his views on Michael Collins Piper's political opinions and judgements on the Second World War.

1 - Saying that the other thread has been "taken over by Tim Gratz" is silly and easily debunked quantitatively. There were 32 posts on the last three pages of the thread when you posted the message above. Of those Tim made only 5 or about 15%, I made 8, John Dolva 4, Andy 3 and Mark 5. My impression is that you "have it in for" Tim which causes you to be unable to admit he has a point even when he's right.

2 - The consensus of forum members seems to be that Piper's prejudices are germane to discussing his book. Several members including your fellow moderator have expressed views similar to Tim's in that Piper's presence here causes them discomfort.

3 - I think (hope) that all members of this forum, even the ones like you who disagree with almost every thing he says, would agree with Tim's "views on Michael Collins Piper's political opinions and judgments on the Second World War".

4 - Piper did request membership in this forum and I don't see why he should be shielded from answering legitimate questions about his hateful views and career long connections to abominable people. By creating this thread you are in effect creating a buffer between where he can promote his thesis and where questions about his probable bias are raised. Piper is an adult and should be able to fend for himself with out your help. He has chosen to spend his entire career working for and with neo-Nazis and there is no reason he shouldn't be held to account in the same thread were he attributes authorship of some of the most infamous crimes of the century and other misdeed to Jews.

5 - If I am not mistaken this is an unprecidented step or are there other cases where you created to different threads to discus the same book?

For the above reasons I believe the proper thing to do is lock this thread or do you feel that some who has worked for America's leading promoter of Nazi ideals for 25 years needs or deserves you protection?

Edited by Len Colby
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Piper did request membership in this forum and I don't see why he should be shielded from answering legitimate questions about his hateful views and career long connections to abominable people. By creating this thread you are in effect creating a buffer between where he can promote his thesis and where questions about his probable bias are raised. Piper is an adult and should be able to fend for himself with out your help. He has chosen to spend his entire career working for and with neo-Nazis and there is no reason he shouldn't be held to account in the same thread were he attributes authorship of some of the most infamous crimes of the century and other misdeed to Jews.

If I am not mistaken this is an unprecidented step or are there other cases where you created to different threads to discus the same book?

For the above reasons I believe the proper thing to do is lock this thread or do you feel that some who has worked for America's leading promoter of Nazi ideals for 25 years needs or deserves you protection?

As I pointed out above, this section is kept for discussing books with their author. I cannot see how you cannot grasp that.

I am in no way protecting Michael Collins Piper from the scrutiny of our members. You and others have already asked him numerous questions about his beliefs? You are free to continue to do this.

You have now attacked the way I run this Forum on several different threads. I suggest that you start a new thread on the subject. (I will eventually be deleting on the irrelevant posts on this thread). Better still, why don’t you go away and establish your own Forum. Then you can run it in the way you like best. That will include only allowing people to join who agree with your views. Maybe you could form it with Tim Gratz. I am sure you would have great fun together.

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These last few exchanges demonstrate why Piper's book has been so controversial. People can write books all day long about the CIA killing Kennedy, but someone brings up the possibility of it being Mossad that killed Kennedy and everyone loses perspective. I agree with John that this is the proper thread to discuss Piper's book. This is the author's Forum. The other thread, it seems to me, was more a discussion of whether or not John and Andy should allow Piper on the Forum. If there's not much to Piper's book I suspect an honest discussion of his book will expose its weaknesses. If we attack the character of the man instead of the logic of his book we will lower ourselves. I suspect that Len will use the same analytical approach to Piper and his work that he used on Fetzer. I'd be disappointed if he did not.

If it becomes obvious that the book is built around hunches, and is pure speculation based upon a presumption of Israel's ruthlessness, then we should ask Piper why he felt it necessary to write such abook without any real evidence. At that point, his personal beliefs will be entirely relevant.

Let's not judge the song by its singer, nor the singer by his song.

IMO

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These last few exchanges demonstrate why Piper's book has been so controversial. People can write books all day long about the CIA killing Kennedy, but someone brings up the possibility of it being Mossad that killed Kennedy and everyone loses perspective.

I think the issue here is less Piper's advocacy of Mossad complicity in the assassination than it is his holocaust denial.

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Finally, the Most Evil Person in the world—or at least one of the Most Evil Persons in the world—puts in an appearance.

I realize that there are a lot of people who don't believe that I should have the right to post on this forum because they object to the fact, for example, that my view of the American entry into the war in Europe mirrored precisely that of a young Harvard student named John F. Kennedy who was a dues paying member of the America First Committee.

I realize that many people object to my political point of view and that they reject the populist tradition of Robert LaFollette, Gerald Nye, Burton K. Wheeler and others of that political persuasion whom I admire greatly.

I realize that there are many on this forum who are upset about the fact that because I am of partial American Indian heritage, I am a little hard-pressed to understand why billions of U.S. tax dollars to go Israel (precisely because of the clout of the Israeli lobby in Washington and because of the political clout of millions of deluded folks who follow the teachings of Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and Tim LaHaye) whereas the American Indians on concentration camps euphemistically called "reservations" are suffering from high rates of malnutrition, disease, alcoholism, etc.

I realize . . . well, I could go on and on. I do intend to reply to the audacious distortions, misrepresentations, misquotations and well, let's face it, LIES that have been posted about me on this forum, but for the present, I am attaching—and hope that it comes through—a significant chapter from FINAL JUDGMENT that details the definitive Mossad and Israeli connections of the infamous Permindex entity on whose board of directors Clay Shaw served. This chapter gives a flavor of the book and before anyone starts jaw-boning and saying, "Clay Shaw was acquitted," or "Clay Shaw had nothing to do with the JFK assassination," I hasten to point out, first of all, that FINAL JUDGMENT is NOT NOT NOT exclusively based on "the Clay Shaw connection," and secondly, that I do not necessarily believe that Clay Shaw was actively engaged in plotting the JFK assassination, rather that he (along with Guy Banister and David Ferrie) were "handling" Oswald in New Orleans and that Shaw himself probably never knew that JFK was going to be assassinated. I DO suggest, however, that the New Orleans scenario WAS part of the ultimate assassination conspiracy.

Since this chapter was first published, I should mention, I have also learned—from the investment banker who handled the financing—that Edgar and Edith Stern of New Orleans (Clay Shaw's best friends and reportedly those who financed his defense) were major investors in the NUMEC nuclear plant in Apollo, Pennsylvania from which James Angleton, Israel's devoted ally at the Mossad desk in the CIA, helped engineer the diversion of uranium into Israel's nuclear weapons program.

I have also learned, in the new book, THE BOMB IN THE BASEMENT (by an Israel writer, Michael Karpin) that Clay Shaw's Permindex associate, Louis Bloomfield, was one of a handful of North American millionaires who personally put up the money for Israel's nuclear weapons program.

So, if the attachment comes through, this will give folks the opportunity to get a better idea of where I am coming from.

If this attachment works, I will subsequently attach further information from the book itself.

I will also be posting some general comments in direct response to John Simkin's opening question.

And thanks to those open-minded individuals—thank God there are many—who understand that my views on issues A, B, or C have NOTHING whatsoever to do with the JFK assassination.

And I would add, generally, that is precisely because—as I say very clearly and without hesitation in FINAL JUDGMENT—I have indeed long been a critic of Israel and a student of its misdeeds (which are many) that this is why I was able to freely examine multiple Mossad connections (on multiple levels) to many of the often-mentioned "players" in the JFK assassination scenario(s).

My book does not say that the JFK assassination was exclusively a Mossad affair, contrary to what some have suggested or otherwise misperceived.

Chapter_11__Permindex.doc

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I am now (attempting) to post another attachment from FINAL JUDGMENT.

This is the chapter which follows the previously posted chapter on PERMINDEX.

Several people have said that this chapter is the "best" chapter in the book. By saying that I am sure that I am setting myself up for Tim Gratz to say, "Well, if this is the best Piper has to offer, blah blah blah," but I think I will let the chips fall where they may.

Incidentally, I should also refer people to the amazon.com website where there is a very glowing review of FINAL JUDGMENT posted by an individual who uses the handle PAULOCAL.

PAULOCAL happens to be an African-American (for those who like to worry about other peoples' races, creeds and colors. But MORE IMPORTANTLY PAULOCAL happens to be Herbert L. Calhoun, PH.D.

Dr. Calhoun, as any search of the Internet will tell you, retired as deputy division chief of the Policy, Plans and Analysis Office of the State Department's Bureau of Political-Military Affairs and formerly served as asenior foreign affairs specialist for the U.S. Arms Conrol and Disarmament Agency.

To the best of my knowledge Dr. Calhoun is neither a racist, nor an anti-Semite, nor a Neo-Nazi nor is he affiliated with any Holocaust Denial organizations.

I should also mention that several years ago, when the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith kicked up a ruckus in California and successfully scuttled a JFK assassination seminar where I was scheduled to speak at a community college, one of my most outspoken public defenders was Col. Forest J. Hunt, former commander of ALL of the U.S. Marine guards at US Embassies across the planet.

The book has also been heartily endorsedby Col. Donn de Grand Pre whois 1967 wasnamed director for Ground Weapons System's in the Pentagon's Office of International Logistics Negotiations, responsible for negotiating sales conractswith heads of foreign nations for military weapons systems. On September 30, 1979, The Washington Post magazine wrote of Grand Pre: "If you had been a Middle Eastern ruler in the 1970s in search of weapons systems, you would have called Donn de Grand Pre, Pentagon arms peddler."

And the book has been endorsed by veteran Hollywood screenwriter Bill Norton who—with his Jewish wife, by the way—has long been active in progressive causes to the point that he was called as a hostile witness before Congress during the anti-communist "witch-hunts" of the 1950s and who served as a volunteer advisor to the Sandinista government in Nicaragua ---- hardly your run of the mill "right wing extremist who buys the poison of Michael Collins Piper and his Holocaust denial, blah blah blah."

And so for the attachment . . .

Chapter_12.doc

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On page 51 in the 1969 edition of volume III of his FORGIVE MY GRIEF series, Penn Jones, the much-admired Texas-based JFK researcher, wrote as follows:

"Jack Ruby was a close intimate of the members of the Dallas Police force and other Unied States law enforcement agencies, as well as the israeli counter intelligence organization. His one-time employee, Nancy Zeigman Perrin Rich was also close to these same forces. Identifying Ruby and Nancy as being involved with the israeli intelligence opens up a completely overlooked area concerning the assassination of President Kennedy."

Query: Does this make Penn Jones an anti-Semite or a Holocaust Denier?

Jack Ruby's FBI files -- as described on A. J. Weberman's website -- indicate that Ruby was involved in arms smuggling to Israel in the 1950s.

Ruby's attorney, Luis Kutner, who "handled" Ruby during Ruby's appearance before organized crime hearings in the 1950s, had ties to the CIA and to Israeli intelligence. This may mean something or it may mean nothing, but it is one of those funny little details that people somehow seem to miss.

People also seem to miss the point that the night before the JFK assassination when Ruby had his famous meeting with Lawrence Myers at the much-talked-about Cabana Motel, he was meeting with a gentleman (that is, Myers) who --- again according to A J. Weberman's website -- was connected to a company that was believed to be smuggling arms to Israel. So although much is made of Ruby's meeting with Myers, the Israeli connection gets passed by.

And then there's the point made by Dr. William Pepper, in his latest book on the Martin Luther King assassination, that Ruby and James Earl Ray's mysterious associate "Raul" were -- in 1963 -- involved in an arms smuggling operation that included an Israeli Mossad official. (In my opinion, based on published accounts of his career, that Mossad official was almost certainly Michael Harari.)

And then there's Ruby's claim that he was acting as a translator for Israeli reporters in Dallas when he was hanging around police headquarters. Why have none of our intrepid JFK researchers ever tracked down these reporters? Who were they?

Why is it left to "anti-Semite and Holocaust denier" Michael Collins Piper to raise these points?

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Michael Collins Piper wrote:

[...]

And then there's the point made by Dr. William Pepper, in his latest book on the Martin Luther King assassination, that Ruby and James Earl Ray's mysterious associate "Raul" were -- in 1963 -- involved in an arms smuggling operation that included an Israeli Mossad official. (In my opinion, based on published accounts of his career, that Mossad official was almost certainly Michael Harari.)

[...]

Knock-knock, excuse me Michael.... smuggling or selling what arms? M/C rifles amongst the weapons.

David Healy

Edited by David G. Healy
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David Healy asks whether Mannlicher-Carcanos were among the weapons being smuggled by Jack Ruby and "Raul" (James Earl Ray's legendary "handler") -- as asserted by Dr. William Pepper in his book, AN ACT OF STATE !!

Oh you can be sure if he had said that I would have reported it!

You know me, always looking for an Israeli conspiracy under every gun case.

Actually, as I recall, without having Pepper's book handy, it seems these arms were being stolen (with the collusion of people inside the Army itself) from U.S. Army warehouses.

My point is that these Israeli connections to Ruby (Shaw, Sturgis, Banister, etc) are multiple BUT OTHERWISE COMPLETED IGNORED BY JFK RESEARCHERS WHO WILL SPEND HOURS DEBATING WHY JACKIE KENNEDYCRAWLED OUT ON THE BACK OF THE LIMOUSINE!

Penn Jones put it correctly when he said that the Israeli connection is a "completely overlooked area" in the JFK asssassination.

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"An Arab did it."

The Bobby Kennedy assassination.

Why did the masterminds of THAT conspiracy select a Palestinian as the patsy?

Who benefited most directly from the focus on an evil Arab (who I believe is a Christian, by the way) having killed RFK?

Somebody made the claim that Bobby Kennedy was a big supporter of Israel.

Hey folks! He was running for the US Senate in New York. Duh!

But if you believe C. David Heymann, in his biography of Bobby, he reports that the New York Jewish community was not too thrilled with Bobby; that Ethel Kennedy made a remark to some Jewish politico that "you people" were the ones who caused problems for Bobby when he was running for the Senate; and that Bobby was known to use certain anti-Semitic epithets on a regular basis in private conversations. (Heymann, incidentally, claims to have been a Mossad agent or asset himself. He said it. I didn't. )

A friend of mine of many years was part of the RFK entourage at the Ambassador Hotel on the night of the shooting. She personally witnessed Bobby saying that he wanted to exit the hotel by going through the ballroom --- good for the cameras with all the screaming fans, y'know --- but that another prominent member of the entourage was UNUSUALLY insistent that Bobby go through the kitchen. In FINAL JUDGMENT I name that individual. At the time she was puzzled as to why this individual was so insistent, and only later, afterward, did it pop into her mind as to what she had witnessed. This person has publicly claimed that he told Bobby that Bobby should exit through the ballroom and that Bobby wanted to go through the kitchen. That is not true. My friend told me the story about ten years BEFORE the guilty party told his version of events in writing. And guess what? The individual who steered Bobby into the kitchen began his career as a publicist for the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith which was revealed in a spy scandal in San Francisco some years ago (details of which can be found on the Internet) to be closely tied to Israel's intelligence service, the Mossad.

And I'll tell a story here, regarding Bobby, that's going to upset a lot of people.

Now that my longtime friend, the late Bill Gill, is dead (and safe from reprisals) I can tell you this story that he told me.

Bill was a former correspondent for UPI and the Pittsburgh Press, and he also wrote for Life. Fortune, The Saturday Evening Post, reader's Digest and National Geographic (none of them being Holocaust Denial publications, by the way). He also wrote several books including The Ordeal of Otto Otepka, Why Reagan Won, Trade Wars Against America, and was the former executive director of the Mellon family's Allegheny Foundation and was a big-time lobbyist for the domestic steel industry. Obviously quite an accomplished fellow, by any estimation.

Bill Gill was also very entwined with the CIA and military intelligence and over the years he was involved with a number of ventures involving matters of special interest to the Mossad. He was one of those old-time Cold Warriors who used to buy the idea that israel was a valuable Cold War asset---but Bill was privately VERY ANTI-SEMITIC. And—Tim Gratz will love this—Bill was married to a German countess who was the god-daughter of Eugenio Pacelli, later to become Pope Pius XII---so-called "Hitler's Pope."

As a consequence of his connections in Pennsylvania with the Mellens, Bill (a professional Irishman) became quite friendly with a liberal Democratic Party leader and major labor figure in Pennsylvania (another Irishman) who was not only a Kennedy family operative but also a CLOSE FRIEND OF THE KENNEDY FAMILY. The Irish labor leader was also privately very anti-Semitic.

At the time, Bill, being the conservative that he was, didn't like the Kennedys. But his Irish labor leader friend said to him: "Bill, listen, I want to get you and Bobby Kennedy together. You two would really hit it off. And you know what? He's anti-Semitic just like we are. But when Bobby's in a restaurant or somewhere talking about the Jews and doesn't want people to know what he's talking about, he refers to them as 'the liberals.'"

Bill was flabbergasted. He, too, believed the legend but found out otherwise.

This kind of reminds me of when my former Jewish room-mate—who is now a member of Congress—told me that when he and his family were making derogatory remarks about Blacks that they never used the "n" word. Instead, he said, "We call them schwartzers and they don't know what that means." (Yes, I had a Jewish room-mate, while I was working for the "anti-semitic Holocaust denying Liberty Lobby." My critics just can't understand that I can be critical of Organized Jewish Power Groups and still treat Jewish people as human beings. But then, of course, people are stupid.

My Jewish room-mate and I had a falling out, though. He tried to cheat me and my other room-mate (a Japanese-American, whose son is my second godson, my other one being a little African-American boy) out of our security deposits. However, we managed to convince him to give us the money back by --- shall we say --- threatening to release certain materials that could prove embarrassing. That's why I always say I've only ever blackmailed one member of Congress!

Remember, folks, an Arab did it.

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These last few exchanges demonstrate why Piper's book has been so controversial. People can write books all day long about the CIA killing Kennedy, but someone brings up the possibility of it being Mossad that killed Kennedy and everyone loses perspective.

It's not what is being said as much as who is saying it that I think bothers me and the others. None of the three people who objected to Mr. Piper's presence here, John Dolva (I assume), Tim Gratz or Andy are Jews

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Yeah, I agree with Owen Parsons and Ken Colby . . . I'm a really, realllllllllllllly scary guy. Just thinking about myself gets me kind of dizzy . . . I feel panic attacks coming on . . . I mean, My God, I actually don't believe the Bible! (Speaking of which, Thomas L. Thompson has written some fantastic works showing that archeology and history refute the old legends about ancient Israel --- all made up. A Jewish writer, Daniel Lazare, wrote a great piece for Harper's magazine a few years ago (and I believe it's accessible online) demonstrating that the Zionist claim to Palestine is based on a tissue of ancient lies. So much for that vicious racist "Chosen People" nonsense. In any event, the Old Testament is quite demented.

NOTE TO OWEN PARSONS: If you check out A. J. Weberman's website---I mean, he's no evil Holocaust denier like me---you'll find that he claims (and I have no reason to doubt his word) that Jim Garrison was circulating a manuscript for an unpublished novel in which Garrison fingered Israel's Mossad as the force behind the JFK assassination.

I didn't learn that until about the time I was putting together either the fourth or fifth edition of FINAL JUDGMENT.

I wonder why in the world Jim Garrison would have ever thought the Mossad might have been behind the JFK assassination?

If you believe Garrison was on the right track in going after Clay Shaw, it is IMPOSSIBLE to dispute that Clay Shaw was in the thick of Mossad operations via his involvement with Permindex.

In some respects, I tend to think, Shaw was actually more "Mossad" than CIA and Shaw wasn't even Jewish.

P.S. I wonder if I will be able to open up any of the three or four newspapers I read daily (Wash Times, Wash Post, NYTimes and Philly Inquirer) and NOT find some "Holocaust News." My God, you'd think it was just yesterday. I am so bored with the Holocaust. Boring. Boring.

If you're a Holocaust Enthusiast and want an interesting book on the topic, check out Jewish American professor Peter Novick's book, THE HOLOCAUST IN AMERICAN LIFE (not not not a Holocaust Denial book, folks) and you'll actually learn something. I found it very interesting that, according to Novick, a top leader of the American Jewish Committee said at the end of World War Two that most Holocaust survivors were, in his words, "largely the lowest Jewish elements." Pretty amazing. Novick also reports that the whole concept of America having a "Judeo-Christian heritage" was cooked up by a World War II era Office of War Information propagandist , Leo Rosten, trying to convince Americans that Hitler was also more or less anti-Christian. The OWI realized that a lot of Americans—like the Kennedy brothers, Joe and Jack—supported Charles Lindbergh and the America First Committee's opposition to U.S. involvement in a war against Germany and they needed every bit of clever gimmickry to get Americans to rally round the flag against Hitler. Thus the invention of the "Judeo-Christian" terminology. Remember: Evil Anti-Semite Mike Piper didn't make this up. He's just quoting Jewish American professor David Novick, of, I believe, the University of Chicago, not known as a center of Holocaust Denial.

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