Suspicious Vehicles and 11/22/63

[Mark Knight]

1957 Chevrolet in the Allen photo? I don't believe that this vehicle was parked there when the motorcade came through.

- lee

Lee, by the side trim, that is definitely NOT a '57 Chevy behind the tree in the photo with the cop...but it surely MIGHT be your mysterious '56 Pontiac.

[J. William King]

1957 Chevrolet in the Allen photo? I don't believe that this vehicle was parked there when the motorcade came through.

- lee

Lee, by the side trim, that is definitely NOT a '57 Chevy behind the tree in the photo with the cop...but it surely MIGHT be your mysterious '56 Pontiac.

That's not a '56, but a '58 Pontiac.

JWK

Edited June 16, 2006 by Jeffrey King

[J. William King]

Just to add another vehicle to your list, have a look at this photo which I believe was taken minutes after the assassination, at the corner of Elm and Houston (I think that's the Dal-Tex building in the background). It just happens to be a light colored '62 Rambler American station wagon.

JWK

[Mark Knight]

That's not a '56, but a '58 Pontiac.

You're correct...the '56 Pontiac had similar side trim, but a different tail light than the '58, which is definitely what is pictured..

[Duke Lane]

Lonnie Ray Wright w/m/ - 3 time loser. Drunk, put in jail. Was on RR track.

Where is the arrest report? Where on the RR track? Is that the man photographed by Jack Beers? I just read a Lancer post by Steve Thomas. He did a great job of trying to figure this one out as well. The man described in the radio transcript does not match the man Beers photographed - is it Wright?

Based on the timing of the dispatches, I believe the person being described below is Lonnie Ray Wright:

At 1:12 # 243 calls in on Channel 2. #243 is Patrolman B. L. Apple

“I’m down here with this three wheeler at the dead-end of Laurels (sic) and he has got black hair. He is 42 years old and got a light colored jacket on and he is pretty drunk but he has been walking down these railroad tracks. Do you want me to take him up there or what do you want me to do with him?" ....

Speaking of "suspicious vehicles" ... well, that's not exactly fair to say, since the one I'm going to refer to is actually a police vehicle ....

Just for curiosity, wasn't Apple a motorcycle officer? What became of him after this transmission? Didn't he transmit again later on about waiting for someone in a car to come pick the drunk up since he obviously couldn't transport him on the back of a bike.

I'll get back to the police car later since it'll be a bit of a possible surprise ...!

[Duke Lane]

Oops - wrong sized version of the photo. Edited.

#32 - Tom Tilson's account of the middle sized, black car. Peter Whitmey's article below, and a crop from Duke Lane's Cowtown Connection. ... Maybe Duke can comment or perhaps he has an update.

No comment or update, but what number is this one on your list of "suspicious vehicles?"

Attention all squads in the Oak Cliff area - pick up for investigation of a CCW (carrying a concealed weapon), the occupants of a 1957 Chevrolet sedan bearing License Number NA4445 last seen in vicinity Tenth and Jefferson. 2:33.

... from pages 113-114 of CE1974. The transcript ended less than 15 minutes later with the notation of "no other pertinent transmissions through 3:00."

[Lee Forman]

Totally missed those last few posts - awesome! That is quite amazing. As per prior posts - multiple Ramblers - which makes it confusing when folks try to focus on one.

Thanks JW, thanks Mark. Interesting again - does Jim Hicks know the difference in a '56 Pontiac vs a '58 Pontiac from the rear? Is Hicks speaking from information he knows vs what he perceived? It might be worthwhile to examine photos again of the Pontiacs seen in the back lot. In particular, I am wondering about a spare tire. One model of the '58 [The Cheiftain?] appears to have beebn equipped with a fancy spare at the rear. That might fit with the odd shape seen when viewing the area of interest in the Nix film, etc. Like a large round blob in the center.

Duke - that's a good question! Thanks for that one - new for me entirely. I keep saying I have to rework this thread and create a category for suspicious vehicles on 11/22 vs other dates. What's up with the Police Vehicle?

- lee

[J. William King]

Lee,

Those bumper mounted spare tires are called "Continental Spares" (probably after the '55-'57 Continental Mark II, which had a similar "hump" in the trunk), and were all aftermarket additions. Some may have been dealer-installed, but most were not. In fact, after looking at thousands of pictures from that era (of cars), I'm convinced that they were much rarer then than now.

That said, the JFK limo had the same kind of spare tire arrangement, probably so the removable bubbletop roof could fit in the trunk.

BTW, what do you make of the photo I posted of the Rambler wagon at the corner of Elm and Houston? I'm not sure when it was taken, but I believe it was right after the shooting, and that is the Dal-Tex building in the background.

JW

[Duke Lane]

Attention all squads in the Oak Cliff area - pick up for investigation of a CCW (carrying a concealed weapon), the occupants of a 1957 Chevrolet sedan bearing License Number NA4445 last seen in vicinity Tenth and Jefferson. 2:33.

... from pages 113-114 of CE1974. The transcript ended less than 15 minutes later with the notation of "no other pertinent transmissions through 3:00."

Duke - that's a good question! Thanks for that one - new for me entirely. I keep saying I have to rework this thread and create a category for suspicious vehicles on 11/22 vs other dates. What's up with the Police Vehicle?

Police vehicle? Are you referring to the "squads?" This is actually the DPD dispatcher, as quoted by the FBI from Channel 1 tapes.

The only "suspicious" (?unexplained?) police vehicle I'm aware of occurred about an hour and a half or so earlier ... not referring to the mysterious "Car 10" of the blind-in-one-eye Earlene Roberts (which translated into an investigation of Car #207 by DPD, which has an interesting history of its own).

While I'm at it, let's add another "questionable" vehicle: the disabled car that Donny Benavides went to get parts for that was parked on Patton St near the Dominoes Club close to Jefferson, and which is a good candidate for why William Scoggins had to park 'way up by the corner instead and walk back and get his coke. Donny never mentioned it again in his testimony (nor was he asked about it), and when I asked him about it several years ago, he refused to talk about it and went off on a drunken ramble about something else instead. (Of course, cause and effect may be difficult to discern here!)

[Mark Knight]

"Continental" spare trie mounts were offered as optional equipment by most US auto manufacturers on some, but not all, models. As an extra-cost option, most buyers didn't pop the extra bucks for them. It was only when the rare cars with continental spares started bringing a premium as collector cars that the aftermarket got involved to any great extent. Factory continental spares used longer bumper mounting arms, and rear bumpers with longer ends so that they met the rear fenders/quarter panels in about the same place as the bumpers on cars without the continental kit. Continental spares gave the owner more usable trunk space.

My grandfather, who in 1957 was still a Rambler dealer, owned a rare [1500 or so built] '57 Rambler Rebel [a special high-performance model] that had the factory continental kit. The added weight of the spare further behind the rear axle noticably affected the high-speed handling of the car.

[Francesca Akhtar]

Sorry to move a bit 'off topic' but the man pictured in one of the photos posted with the hard hat on, has it been established who he is? Is there any reason to think he might be suspicious? I don't know but I ask because of the so called 'workman' supposedly seen behind the picket fence who was wearing a hard hat. I don't know if he was one of the people who was working in the TSBD laying the new floor on the sixth floor (something I always found a bit suspect anyway)

Just be interested in what others think. Thanks

[John Dolva]

QUOTE(Robert Howard @ Jun 14 2007, 08:09 PM)

[...] According to John Armstrong, [of "Harvey & Lee" fame]......." [...] A 1962 Rambler Ambassador, 4 door station wagon M#H171787 was owned by Clay Shaw”........

____________________________

Hi Robert,

Thanks for that juicy little tidbit!

Does anyone know what color Shaw's '62 Rambler station wagon was? Is there any way to find out based on the license plate number (if that's what "M#H171787" represents)?

I wonder why a wealthy, "classy," stylish, cultured dude like Shaw would even own a "cheap and ugly" car like a Rambler station wagon? For "slumming" purposes? For transporting arms and materiel? For lending to Ferrie for duck-hunting expeditions? Probably all of the above. lol

Thanks,

--Thomas

______________________________

The Ambassador was the top of the line Rambler model, and it too had variants in trim and engine size.

[Duke Lane]

Based on the timing of the dispatches, I believe the person being described below is Lonnie Ray Wright:

At 1:12 # 243 calls in on Channel 2. #243 is Patrolman B. L. Apple

"I'm down here with this three wheeler at the dead-end of Laurels (sic) and he has got black hair. He is 42 years old and got a light colored jacket on and he is pretty drunk but he has been walking down these railroad tracks. Do you want me to take him up there or what do you want me to do with him?"

....

As an aside to the discussion about suspicious vehicles, one "Bob Apple" is claimed to have been in Oak Cliff about a half-hour later, on 10th Street, leaning against his car and talking with Sgt G.L. Hill after Hill went into(?) the Abundant Life Temple to get a .38 revolver.

Er, um, I mean, to see if any suspicious persons had entered.

[Bernice Moore]

humbugdouble.....

Edited June 17, 2007 by Bernice Moore

[Bernice Moore]

1. Tramp - Curly

2. Tramp - Moe

3. Tramp - Larry

4. Tramp [Jack Beers photo] Shemp?

5. Name escapes me - the guy that turned himself in for outstanding warrants in another state. Robin Unger brought that one up once.

6. The unknown hispanic individual in the squad car photo - possibly Ronald Ponce de Leon. James Richards posted that photo before.

7. Lonnie Ray Wright - RR Tracks

8. John Elrod - RR Tracks

9. Lee Harvey Oswald

10. James Braden

11. ARTHUR ALVIS MCDUFFIE, DOB February 6, 1944, date of arrest November 25, 1963. Doesn't count for 11/22 however [tnx to Bernice Moore]

12. Russell McLarry - not 11/22 [tnx to James Richards]

13. Larry Florer

14. There is the youth coming out of Fritz' office when Oswald was being taken in. I think Greg Parker said that this individual may have been associated with the Indignant White Coucil.

15. There is Donald Wayne House - but that is Fort Worth.

16. So is the other individual, Kenneth Glenn Wilson - Fort Worth. Tnx to Duke Lane's Cowtown Connection.

17. Then there is the man who appears to be under arrest, being taken off the knoll. I don't have this frame handy. Robin posted that one someplace.

Let's eliminate the 'protective custody arrests' for the time being...Euins, Brehm and son, TSBD workers including Givens and Arce, etc.

18. There is also the odd Boyscout story, which can be found in Walt Brown's stuff - and the incident with a toy gun that allegedly took place higher up on Main st. If Robinson saw this boy at the station - wouldn't he have been under arrest as well?

19. In the John Elrod account, the man whom he believes may have been Lee Harvey Oswald is also thought to perhaps by JT Masen. Was Masen arrested that day?

20. There is also the arrest made by Craig - of a woman in her 30s, in a brown Chevy, trying to leave the parking area. Is that part of his 12? No records on this one, unless she was one of the 3 TSBD employees that Lewis claimed to have talked with. Only one [simmons?] was close in age to the description provided by Craig.

21. We have the Garrison photo shown to Craig, of an individual that 'yelled in Spanish' and was released.

22. As per Torbitt, "Meanwhile, the Dallas Police were arresting a goodly number of Permindex agents at the assassination site. An important figure, James Powell of Army Intelligence on assignment through the DIA to the Defense Industrial Security Command of Columbus, Ohio and Muscle Shoals, Alabama, was trapped and arrested in the School Book Depository Building shortly after 12:30 pm. He was later released along with the others by Captain Will Fritz in charge of Homicide for the Dallas Police Department." Was Powell actually placed under arrest?

23. But we need to add this one, which I found very curious - Billy Lovelady! He wasn't just put under protective custody, he was apparently locked up for several days and not allowed visitors. He was also made to surrender his shirt, which he got back later. When incarcerated, he was interrogated every few hours or so. How had he managed to be in two places at once?

Well - this doesn't belong on the thread about suspicious vehicles anyway...

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Hi Lee:

Re number 6......

That photo of the hispanic individual comes from the Marsh collection, it was found some years ago.......and passed along..

It is said to be from the Jim Garrison files.......now the connection is, or could be...?

In the Roger Craig information......

When Craig was suppoened to New Orleans and became involved with the Garrison Investigation, Jim showed

Roger that photo, of that man.......[seen below....].

...and Roger Craig stated to him, that is the man that was driving the station wagon, he had seen that day, in Dealey.....

The car that the young man, LHO?, or look alike ?, who had run from behind the area of the TSBD, down the grassy slope, and entered into..

The station wagon is seen in a Jim Murray photo, .[below]......this was also witnessed by three others I believe, at 12/40.pm...

Also, a thought, keep in mind many were taken in that afternoon, but not put under arrest, only for questioning, as for instance, Jim Braden was..

......but that there were reports that 10 to 12 were put under arrest...and all released..

May help within the research of your station wagon....B...

Edited June 17, 2007 by Bernice Moore