Picture of the RIFLEMAN on Stemmonds Expressway

[Bill Miller]

WEBSTER'S DEFINES A COUP D'ETAT AS; THE SUDDEN OVERTHROW OF A GOVERNMENT.

IT DOEN'T REALLY MATTER MATER HOW MANY PEOPLE GET KILLED - IF YOU ATTEMPT IT YOU BETER MAKE SURE IT WORKS. SO WHAT IF CONNALLY GETS SHOT OR NELLY OR JACKIE. THE ANGLE OF FIRE DIDN'T MATTER. THEY'D RATHER NOT SHOOT JACKIE OR CONNALLY OR ANYONE ELSE. BUT IF THATS WHAT IT TOOK- THEN SO BE IT.

JFK WASN'T LEAVING DALLAS ALIVE. AND HE DIDN'T !

JIM FEEMSTER

I find it rather troublesome to think that anyone would have been positioned along Stemmons in the event that the assassination attempt in DP failed. The main reason is that the SS would have been on the car by then and Greer would have been racing at high speed to get out of the area. The chances of shooting JFK with a rifle at such a distance from the road at that point would be zero IMO.

[Antti Hynonen]

Bill Miller Posted Yesterday, 07:24 PM

WEBSTER'S DEFINES A COUP D'ETAT AS; THE SUDDEN OVERTHROW OF A GOVERNMENT.

IT DOEN'T REALLY MATTER MATER HOW MANY PEOPLE GET KILLED - IF YOU ATTEMPT IT YOU BETER MAKE SURE IT WORKS. SO WHAT IF CONNALLY GETS SHOT OR NELLY OR JACKIE. THE ANGLE OF FIRE DIDN'T MATTER. THEY'D RATHER NOT SHOOT JACKIE OR CONNALLY OR ANYONE ELSE. BUT IF THATS WHAT IT TOOK- THEN SO BE IT.

JFK WASN'T LEAVING DALLAS ALIVE. AND HE DIDN'T !

JIM FEEMSTER

I find it rather troublesome to think that anyone would have been positioned along Stemmons in the event that the assassination attempt in DP failed. The main reason is that the SS would have been on the car by then and Greer would have been racing at high speed to get out of the area. The chances of shooting JFK with a rifle at such a distance from the road at that point would be zero IMO.

Do you believe that a professional sniper with a high powered rifle and scope could have fired from this location into the kill zone in Dealey Plaza? Meaning, before Greer and SS agents would have had adequate time to react.

Edited April 5, 2006 by Antti Hynonen

[Bill Miller]

Do you believe that a professional sniper with a high powered rifle and scope could have fired from this location into the kill zone in Dealey Plaza? Meaning, before Greer and SS agents would have had adequate time to react.

I don't believe for a minute that a sniper stationed outside of DP had fired at the motorcade while it was within DP. Ceratainly anyone stationed along Stemmons could not have seen Elm Street because of the trees - the stockde fence - and due to the hill leading from the RR yard to the street. To anyone on Stemmons directly behind the triple underpass - a quick look at the Daniels film shows that JFK's limo wasn't even visible until it was nearing the underpass because of the curvature of Elm Street.

Bill

Edited April 5, 2006 by Bill Miller

[Guest Eugene B. Connolly]

Let's think this through for a moment. If in fact this is someone with a long gun and I have doubts that it is .... if what would be the stock (the thicker section) with the longated thinner section being the barrel, then it seems more likely that we are looking at a shotgun rather than a rifle. However, I personally believe that the object beyond this person has given a false impression as to what we are seeing.

Bill

IMHO it is a man but it is not the 'original' man. The man has been built up. IMHO the 'rifle' is not a rifle.

Look at the stock and barrel: they are virtually transparent. The stock on a rifle is the thickest, blackest - brownest part of the weapon. In this image there is no real substance to the barrel - there seems to be a feeble patchwork of separate pixels where one would surely expect to see more depth and some tone. Here there is no real depth or tone. The barrel is almost non existent - again a patchwork of interlaced pixels - no reflection features - zero. Even at very high magnification one would expect to see depth, tone and contrast.

Look at the face on the yellow tinted image. The face is almost jet black, square - no skin tones at all.

Was he wearing a paper bag on his head? But even this begs further questions.Let's not go there.

Instead of rifleman perhaps we should call him blockhead man, flathead man or Squarepants Spongebob?

EBC

Edited April 5, 2006 by Eugene B. Connolly

[Jack White]

Having known Penn Jones for years, I am familiar with "his theory"

regarding the SECOND KILL ZONE. Here it is as I remember it:

1. Dealey Plaza was the PRIMARY KILL ZONE, to be used if

EVERYTHING WENT RIGHT.

2. A man with an UMBRELLA was to GIVE A VISUAL GO-AHEAD

to shooters after receiving a radio signal from a nearby command post.

3. The location of the umbrellaman was the DP kill zone, which

was marked by three yellow curb stripes. The umbrellaman

would signal if the target was IN THE CLEAR.

4. In case of a NO-GO SITUATION, NO SHOTS WOULD BE

FIRED IN DEALEY PLAZA.

5. A SECONDARY kill site was located on Stemmons Freeway

near the exit to Oak Lawn Avenue.

6. The secondary shooters were positioned in high locations:

a. Atop Cobb Stadium, a tall structure for high school football

b. Atop a Water Department pump station on a nearby hill

c. Atop a signboard on a nearby hill

c. Atop a building on the west side of the freeway.

7. The shooters were to look for a woman in the car with a

bouquet of RED ROSES.

This site was SECONDARY and not to be used except in case

of a NO-GO IN DEALEY PLAZA. The car would have been

slowing to EXIT at the Trade Mart.

The question now becomes...did the planners have a BACK-UP

PLAN in case the DP event was cancelled AT THE LAST SECOND

because of something unforseen? Fletcher Prouty always said

EVERY MILITARY PLAN HAS A "WHAT IF" BACK-UP PLAN.

Penn was a very smart guy...and it must be remembered that

he was A RETIRED GENERAL IN THE U.S. ARMY. Penn told his

scenario at all of his many lectures. I heard it so many times

I have quoted it from memory above.

Think it over.

Jack

[Antti Hynonen]

Bill and Jack,

Thanks for your comments.

Interesting scenario from Penn Jones.

[Lee Forman]

Thanks for that Jack - brilliant. That was the point I was about to try to make actually - I don't believe this was back-up to Dealey Plaza for continued shooting - this was a fallback location in the event Dealey Plaza didn't come off. The Motorcade could have proceeded straight on Main for all anyone knew - there would have to have been a contigency plan.

Jackie Kennedy made a comment about those roses - apparently for the other Texas cities, she was provided yellow roses. There was also that account I had posted from the Dallas History forum or a man standing outside of the Trademart crowd with an open umbrella and some nasty placard or something attached to the shaft. There is the photo of what may be a man with a gun standing on the rooftop of a building at around 12:33pm - which appears to have been across from the Trademart [i wish someone could give me a street address for Corham's - they are not found in the advertisement section of either the Times Herald or the Dallas Morning news for 11/22 or 11/23], and there was the report of a man seen carrying a rifle at around 2:00pm at the railroad tracks. Plus, as I have indicated, if you add up all of the 'suspicious' characters in and about Dallas that day from out of town - it's simply hard to credit that all were gathered at the plaza.

Anyway - thanks again for the remarkable post. It makes a great deal of logical sense that there would have been such a back-up, IMO. And John Elrod could probably tell us more - is he still alive?

- lee

[Jack White]

Lee...I recall the police recordings saying "pick up a suspicious man

in a pickup truck (with rifle?) at Cobb Stadium.

And the curious arrest of Ray Lee Harvey and Oswaldo Ortiz, who

"confessed" to being gunmen stationed in a Water Department

building overlooking Stemmons Freeway. This strange happening

has never been explained.

Jack

PS...forget Elrod...a red herring.

Edited April 5, 2006 by Jack White

[Lee Forman]

Lee...I recall the police recordings saying "pick up a suspicious man

in a pickup truck (with rifle?) at Cobb Stadium.

And the curious arrest of Ray Lee Harvey and Oswaldo Ortiz, who

"confessed" to being gunmen stationed in a Water Department

building overlooking Stemmons Freeway. This strange happening

has never been explained.

Jack

PS...forget Elrod...a red herring.

Jack,

Other than a blurb on the 1979 Carter incident, I can't find anything more on the Ray Lee Harvey or Oswaldo Ortiz bit - no arrest record in the DPD records. NARA doesn't seem to have anything either. There was a OSMIN FERNANDEZ CONCEPCION who went by 'Oswaldo' but that's about it. If there was a Ray Lee Harvey, then he would be on interesting individual to speak with concerning his relationship to the Oswald family. And the Water Department building would play neatly into that Rambler incident with the Survey team, that I can no longer find a reference for anywhere. Where can I learn more about this confession?

- lee

[Jim Feemster]

Lee...I recall the police recordings saying "pick up a suspicious man

in a pickup truck (with rifle?) at Cobb Stadium.

And the curious arrest of Ray Lee Harvey and Oswaldo Ortiz, who

"confessed" to being gunmen stationed in a Water Department

building overlooking Stemmons Freeway. This strange happening

has never been explained.

Jack

PS...forget Elrod...a red herring.

Jack,

Other than a blurb on the 1979 Carter incident, I can't find anything more on the Ray Lee Harvey or Oswaldo Ortiz bit - no arrest record in the DPD records. NARA doesn't seem to have anything either. There was a OSMIN FERNANDEZ CONCEPCION who went by 'Oswaldo' but that's about it. If there was a Ray Lee Harvey, then he would be on interesting individual to speak with concerning his relationship to the Oswald family. And the Water Department building would play neatly into that Rambler incident with the Survey team, that I can no longer find a reference for anywhere. Where can I learn more about this confession?

- lee

LEE,

ON PAGE 94 OF JONES'. ' FORGIVE MT GRIEF ' REVISED, HE SAYS THERE WAS A MAN IDENTIFIED AS LUIS ANGEL CASTILLO, WHO, UNDER HYPNOSIS ADMITTED TO BEING ON TE PARADE ROUTE WITH HIS RIFLE SET AT 500 YARDS ELEVATION [ 400 YARDS TOO HIGH FOR ANY SHOOTER IN DP].

JONES SAYS , THIS ELEVATION WOULD MATCH THE WATER DEPT. BLDG. ELEVATION.

I DON'T KNOW AND HE DOESN'T SAY WHERE THIS INFO COMES FROM ABOUT CASTILLO.

POSSIBLY GARRISON?

JIM FEEMSTER

[Jack White]

Lee...I recall the police recordings saying "pick up a suspicious man

in a pickup truck (with rifle?) at Cobb Stadium.

And the curious arrest of Ray Lee Harvey and Oswaldo Ortiz, who

"confessed" to being gunmen stationed in a Water Department

building overlooking Stemmons Freeway. This strange happening

has never been explained.

Jack

PS...forget Elrod...a red herring.

Jack,

Other than a blurb on the 1979 Carter incident, I can't find anything more on the Ray Lee Harvey or Oswaldo Ortiz bit - no arrest record in the DPD records. NARA doesn't seem to have anything either. There was a OSMIN FERNANDEZ CONCEPCION who went by 'Oswaldo' but that's about it. If there was a Ray Lee Harvey, then he would be on interesting individual to speak with concerning his relationship to the Oswald family. And the Water Department building would play neatly into that Rambler incident with the Survey team, that I can no longer find a reference for anywhere. Where can I learn more about this confession?

- lee

Lee Harvey and Oswaldo were arrested for stalking Jimmy Carter.

Newspaper stories at the time quoted them as saying they were

in Dallas to kill JFK, but were on Stemmons Freeway instead of

Dealey Plaza:

One thing I really noted, it got very little publicity, but

he [Jimmy Carter] said "We are going to have to go all the

way back to the assassination of president Kennedy to get

this country right." That was an extraordinary thing for a

seated president to say. No sooner was Jimmy Carter doing

that than in May, it actually began before the summer of

1979, but on a trip to Los Angeles there was an aborted

attempt on Jimmy Carter's life. Two gunmen that had come up

from Mexico, named Ray Lee Harvey and Oswaldo Ortiz, in other

words, Ray as in James Earl Ray and Lee Harvey as in Lee

Harvey Oswald and Oswaldo Ortiz were arrested for stalking

Jimmy Carter with a rifle. They just seem to have

disappeared. There was no follow-up on the prosecution or

anything like that. I suspect that a message was being sent

to Jimmy Carter...

After reading about Castillo, I may have had a memory merge

of Castillo with Oswaldo and Harvey. I think Castillo may have

been the one who confessed to being a gunman on Stemmons.

Lee Harvey and Oswaldo were used to send a message to Carter

to leave JFK alone.

Events 30+ years ago tend to fade in the memory.

Jack

After reading about Castillo, I may have had a memory merge

of Castillo with Oswaldo and Harvey. I think Castillo may have

been the one who confessed to being a gunman on Stemmons.

Lee Harvey and Oswaldo were used to send a message to Carter

to leave JFK alone.

Events 30+ years ago tend to fade in the memory.

Jack

[Lee Forman]

Lee Harvey and Oswaldo were arrested for stalking Jimmy Carter.

Newspaper stories at the time quoted them as saying they were

in Dallas to kill JFK, but were on Stemmons Freeway instead of

Dealey Plaza:

One thing I really noted, it got very little publicity, but

he [Jimmy Carter] said "We are going to have to go all the

way back to the assassination of president Kennedy to get

this country right." That was an extraordinary thing for a

seated president to say. No sooner was Jimmy Carter doing

that than in May, it actually began before the summer of

1979, but on a trip to Los Angeles there was an aborted

attempt on Jimmy Carter's life. Two gunmen that had come up

from Mexico, named Ray Lee Harvey and Oswaldo Ortiz, in other

words, Ray as in James Earl Ray and Lee Harvey as in Lee

Harvey Oswald and Oswaldo Ortiz were arrested for stalking

Jimmy Carter with a rifle. They just seem to have

disappeared. There was no follow-up on the prosecution or

anything like that. I suspect that a message was being sent

to Jimmy Carter...

Thanks Jack.

Stunning. I had read that before - I cannot help but remark upon the Harvey and Oswald family relationship. It may have been something much different than a word association. No clue though really.

There are 10 hits on Luis Angel Castillo at NARA. One was associated with the Garrison investigation. LUIS ANGEL CASTILLO AKA ANTONIO (REYES) ELORIAGO. Always good to know the alias.

This is an odd one. Why the restrictions, and why release it with deletions, unless there was something to it? Is Luis the equivalent of Lee Oswald for Patsy in the event Dealey Plaza was a no go?

ORIGINATOR : ROCKEFELLER COMMISSION

FROM : CARGILL, MASON

TO : FILE

TITLE : LUIS ANGEL CASTILLO

DATE : 05/19/1975

PAGES : 9

DOCUMENT TYPE : MEMORANDUM

SUBJECTS : CASTILLO, LUIS ANGEL; DOCUMENT REQUEST, ROCKEFELLER

COMMISSION; CIA; CONSPIRACY THEORIES, CASTRO

CLASSIFICATION : SECRET

RESTRICTIONS : 1A; 1B; 1C; REFERRED; MANDATORY REVIEW MATERIAL

CURRENT STATUS : RELEASED WITH DELETIONS

DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 05/25/1995

OPENING CRITERIA : CIA APPROVAL

It will probably be difficult to peel back the onion here on a 'might have been.' However, perhaps there is an ex-Operative more willing to come forward in regards to his or her role here, since the consequences would be different? If operatives were indeed drop shipped to Dallas in some cases without knowledge of the target - AGAIN, interestingly highlighted in Penn's account by the red roses - then one would think there would be immunity from any form of prosecution. Plus, since nothing transpired, not much of a crime.

If Castillo is still alive [no bets...no bets], all I would want to know is who he claims hypnotized him.

Are you aware of the source or a reference for that piece on the Cop checking into a Rambler several days before the assassination? It was parked someplace in or near Dealey Plaza - 3 individuals with survey gear. The cop ran the plate and it came up Department of Water if I remember it right? I spent several hours trying to relocate that account with no luck. It was simply overlooked as a false lead, I was told, since the plate was traced to a Dallas Government Public works department. I would think any survey work done before the assassination in or about Dealey Plaza would be highly suspect.

- lee

[Jack White]

I have no idea why my last two messages appeared TOGETHER and in DUPLICATE. I only

posted each message once, about ten minutes apart.

I have no idea how to fix it. It is not something I did. If John wants to fix it, he can.

Jack

[Lee Forman]

Lee...I recall the police recordings saying "pick up a suspicious man

in a pickup truck (with rifle?) at Cobb Stadium.

And the curious arrest of Ray Lee Harvey and Oswaldo Ortiz, who

"confessed" to being gunmen stationed in a Water Department

building overlooking Stemmons Freeway. This strange happening

has never been explained.

Jack

PS...forget Elrod...a red herring.

Jack,

Other than a blurb on the 1979 Carter incident, I can't find anything more on the Ray Lee Harvey or Oswaldo Ortiz bit - no arrest record in the DPD records. NARA doesn't seem to have anything either. There was a OSMIN FERNANDEZ CONCEPCION who went by 'Oswaldo' but that's about it. If there was a Ray Lee Harvey, then he would be on interesting individual to speak with concerning his relationship to the Oswald family. And the Water Department building would play neatly into that Rambler incident with the Survey team, that I can no longer find a reference for anywhere. Where can I learn more about this confession?

- lee

LEE,

ON PAGE 94 OF JONES'. ' FORGIVE MT GRIEF ' REVISED, HE SAYS THERE WAS A MAN IDENTIFIED AS LUIS ANGEL CASTILLO, WHO, UNDER HYPNOSIS ADMITTED TO BEING ON TE PARADE ROUTE WITH HIS RIFLE SET AT 500 YARDS ELEVATION [ 400 YARDS TOO HIGH FOR ANY SHOOTER IN DP].

JONES SAYS , THIS ELEVATION WOULD MATCH THE WATER DEPT. BLDG. ELEVATION.

I DON'T KNOW AND HE DOESN'T SAY WHERE THIS INFO COMES FROM ABOUT CASTILLO.

POSSIBLY GARRISON?

JIM FEEMSTER

Thanks Jim.

It is amazing to me that the sources for the Copeland? Torbitt document were also alleged to be Garrison files. Richard Sprague's 'Taking of America...' what are his sources? Frustrating.

For anyone unaware - Garrison's files appear to have largely been destroyed.

http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_i...ue/connick.html

- lee

[Bill Miller]

Has anyone considered that this object is too large to be a human being? If we consider what we see to be the upper half of a human being, then that would make him nearly as tall as the front of the building.

Bill