Clint Hill and the SS Agents in Dallas

Francesca Akhtar · April 22, 2006

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Edited September 13, 2009 by Francesca Akhtar

Francesca Akhtar · April 23, 2006

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Edited September 13, 2009 by Francesca Akhtar

Sid Walker · April 23, 2006

And as for RFK being the 'mastermind' behind the assassination how ludicrous is that?

Francesca, I was chatting recently at a social occasion. Not a meeting of conspiracy buffs... just 'regular folk'

I was astonished that someone propounded the 'RFK dunnit' theory with great gusto. I was told the motive had something to do with brotherly rivalry over Maryln Monroe.

The mind boggles as to how RFK subsequently have engineered his own assassination and the coverup over that!

Anyhow, I mention this little anecdote, because although you rightly call this theory 'light relief' it appears to have some traction with the punters.

Light relief may have dark sources - although it's also true there's no known limit to the human capacity for nuttiness

Bill Cheslock · April 23, 2006

I was joking, Francesca. How could I not be? I do notice that i have a lot of trouble conveying humor, though; I guess I should stop trying. Would it have been better if I'd written the first thing I thought of: the part about Clint Hill was the only part I couldn't believe! And no, I don't believe that either; Clint Hill is one of the true great heroes that day in my estimation, another being MLBaker, and I'm very much aware of him beating himself up about not "having done more" and going through hell all these years. That's too bad, but it's proof of just how much character he really does have.
BTW, I would recommend the movie "Dr. Strangelove: or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb." Once the US President talks about how General Ripper has gone overboard in ordering his flight squadron to drop their nuclear weapons on the USSR, the General played by George C. Scott says, "I think we oughta hold back judgement until all the facts are in."

Take care,

Dan

Dan

Clint Hill did what he could that day, and it wasn't enough. Perhaps he

could've arrived at the limousine quicker if he wasn't out violating a Secret Service regulation

the night/early morning before the assassination. In a report to Chief Rowley, Mr. Hill

admitted to consuming a scotch at the Press Club, and a "fruit drink" at the Cellar. He also

stated in the report that he left the Cellar at 2:45 a.m. (CE 1020). Secret Service regulations

with respect to drinking alcoholic beverages were violated by Mr. Hill and at least

eight other SS agents on the night and early morning before the assassination. No

discipline was handed out because Chief Rowley didn't want the agents to suffer the

stigma that would be attached to them if they were indeed punished for violating

the regulations of consuming alcoholic beverages while on duty. (WCH V p. 452).

Bill C

John Dolva · April 23, 2006

I was joking, Francesca. How could I not be? I do notice that i have a lot of trouble conveying humor, though; I guess I should stop trying. Would it have been better if I'd written the first thing I thought of: the part about Clint Hill was the only part I couldn't believe! And no, I don't believe that either; Clint Hill is one of the true great heroes that day in my estimation, another being MLBaker, and I'm very much aware of him beating himself up about not "having done more" and going through hell all these years. That's too bad, but it's proof of just how much character he really does have.

BTW, I would recommend the movie "Dr. Strangelove: or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb." Once the US President talks about how General Ripper has gone overboard in ordering his flight squadron to drop their nuclear weapons on the USSR, the General played by George C. Scott says, "I think we oughta hold back judgement until all the facts are in."

Take care,

Dan

Dan

Clint Hill did what he could that day, and it wasn't enough. Perhaps he

could've arrived at the limousine quicker if he wasn't out violating a Secret Service regulation

the night/early morning before the assassination. In a report to Chief Rowley, Mr. Hill

admitted to consuming a scotch at the Press Club, and a "fruit drink" at the Cellar. He also

stated in the report that he left the Cellar at 2:45 a.m. (CE 1020). Secret Service regulations

with respect to drinking alcoholic beverages were violated by Mr. Hill and at least

eight other SS agents on the night and early morning before the assassination. No

discipline was handed out because Chief Rowley didn't want the agents to suffer the

stigma that would be attached to them if they were indeed punished for violating

the regulations of consuming alcoholic beverages while on duty. (WCH V p. 452).

Bill C

That's terrible. I had no idea of this. I suppose one has to take his word for the amount he drank? The times would barely give him a decent night sleep and then be bright and ready for the job. One way or the other, some impairment of function sounds reasonable to expect. (I wonder if there are any hints of 'upper' use? Hair of the dog? One wouldn't expect them to be keen to admit to any sort of abuse. Whose idea was it to go to town? Had they been released to do so, was it standard practise? no doubt all this has been hashed over previously.)

Lee Forman · April 23, 2006

That's terrible. I had no idea of this. I suppose one has to take his word for the amount he drank? The times would barely give him a decent night sleep and then be bright and ready for the job. One way or the other, some impairment of function sounds reasonable to expect. (I wonder if there are any hints of 'upper' use? Hair of the dog? One wouldn't expect them to be keen to admit to any sort of abuse. Whose idea was it to go to town? Had they been released to do so, was it standard practise? no doubt all this has been hashed over previously.)

John - this is a well known and well worn subject. This was partially covered also in a thread on the first black SS - Lamar Waldron - concerning the drinking by the SS. One link to Lamar...

http://www.calitreview.com/Interviews/waldron_8024.htm

There has been speculation concerning the bartender at the Cellar who served the drinks - Pat Kirkwood - you can Google this, or probably even do a search here on the Forum for more info - how many SS were actually there [anyone's guess since I have seen different numbers], who drank how much and who left at what time - probably a mystery for all time. :beer :beer :maggieJ :beer

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/v2n1/chrono2.pdf

The fact of the matter is plain and I feel strongly about this in terms of my personal opinion - anyone that had been drinking at the Cellar the evening before the assassination should have been instantly terminated without further renumeration of any kind. PERIOD. No pension, no benefits, no severance. Their primary function was to protect the Commander-in-Chief. Not only did they fail to perform this task miserably, but some of them had been up until the wee hours of that very day - and we are talking about grain alcohol and a cover-up on this matter as well. FIRED - instantly.

Why should they have been treated any differently than anyone else? Would anyone in a similar professional capacity today be extended the same 'courtesy?'

Fired and with shame heaped upon all their heads...and lucky to have this as an option. In some Countries they would have simply been taken out back and shot.

Clint Hill didn't seem to appreciate Vince Salandria's last published work. Was he fit for duty when he protected a corpse all the way to Parkland? The other SS are not heroes - if something I heard once was on the level, then firepower prepared in Dealey - according to plan - was anticipating retaliation - not flight. Does that not make them cowards? It doesn't matter how you feel about Kennedy - objectively speaking, they fled - despite the fact that shots were being fired and they were armed to the teeth. Is that logical? Is that in any way logical?

Then there were the write-ups on the SS and the difficulty of their job, their rigorous training, how they could not have been blamed for what transpired etc., along with the Oswald propaganda, poor Kennedy, and 'that LBJ is one cool SOB stuff' - absurd. But that is the phenomenon of recorded history and the 'Golden Rule.'

- lee

Duke Lane · April 23, 2006

Francesca, Let's not be too quick to judge until all the facts are in.
Are you joking or being serious? For a start where does it show in any of the numerous films or photos Clint Hill turning towards the TSBD and 'signalling' Oswald to shoot? ...

Well, geez, wouldn't it be in the same film that shows JFK turning completely around to wave at the crowd when Oswald shot him in the throat? I mean, c'mon, really: some things are just painfully ob[li]vious, don't you think?

John Dolva · April 23, 2006

Bill,
Thanks. I was aware of all the drinking, etc, but while it's certainly not insignificant about alertness, reaction times, professional conduct, etc, Clint Hill was the one who reacted the quickest and, by virtue of our usually only seeing the head shot and little afterwards, the impression is that he was the only one reacting period. I think we'd both agree there was little defense that could've been provided against a sniper that day, mostly when considering all the other suspicious "variables" we're familiar with. I myself tend to lay more blame in the direction of J. Edgar and Mr. Angleton than the Secret Service contingent.

Just to try and steer the discussion more back to the lighthearted humor intended by Francesca, though, what about this James Files deal going on elsewhere?

Dunno about Files. Funny thread.Ha Ha. OK?*

____________________________

to what degree is a statement like

'there should have been at least four ss guys diving into the limo to cover Kennedy seconds before Clint 'reacted' to the headshot'

correct. I wonder what the manual and training would have dictated. (is there any reason to think someone superior in the limo issued an order that served to distract or override (what seems like very quick group reactions in the Altgens) standing orders at the crucial time? Or were they all too hungover to give a s**t? All of the above?

__________

*just kidding

John Simkin · April 23, 2006

One of the interesting things about Clint Hill is that he went to Dallas as Jackie Kennedy's bodyguard. He was the only one in the Secret Service car who reacted as he should have done. Hill was praised for his bravery. He was the only Secret Service agent who attempted to cover the president's body with his own.

At the Warren Commission Hill claimed he only heard two shots. He also thought the second shot sounded very different from the first shot. Some researchers have claimed that this indicated that it had been fired from a different gun. Another explanation is that the second and third shots were fired at virtually the same time.

This was the statement he made on 30th November, 1963.

President and Mrs. Kennedy entered the automobile with the President getting into the right rear seat and Mrs. Kennedy into the left rear seat. Mrs. Connally got into the left jump seat and Governor Connally into the right jump seat. SA William Greer was driving the automobile with ASAIC Roy H. Kellerman in the right front seat. I went to the left rear side of the Presidential automobile and stood on the airport ramp along side where Mrs. Kennedy was sitting.

As the Presidential automobile began to move forward at 11:55 a.m. I walked along side of the left rear of the automobile for about 150 feet, and since there were no people at all on the airport ramp I went back to the automobile immediately behind the Presidential Automobile and mounted the forward portion of the left running board.

SA Sam Kinney was driving this Secret Service Follow-up car which was a 1955 Cadillac 9-passenger convertible specifically outfitted for use by the Secret Service. ATSAIC Emory Roberts was sitting in the right front seat and operating the two way radio. SA John Ready was on the forward portion of the right hand running board; SA William McIntyre on the rear portion of the left hand running board; SA Paul E. Landis on the rear portion of the right hand running board; Mr. Kenneth O'Donnell, Presidential Appointment Secretary, was seated on the left side of the second seat; Mr. Dave Powers, Presidential Receptionist, was seated on the right side of the second seat; SA George Hickey was seated on the left side of the third seat- and SA Glen Bennett was seated on the right side of the third seat.

The Presidential Follow-up car was followed by a 1964 Lincoln 4-door convertible occupied by Vice-President and Mrs. Lyndon Johnson, Senator Ralph Yarborough, with ASAIC Rufus Youngblood in the right front seat. This automobile was followed by a Secret Service follow-up car for the Vice President, and then came automobiles occupied by photographers, correspondents, Senators and Congressmen.

Preceding the Presidential automobile was a Dallas Police Department Lead car in which SA Winston Lawson of the Secret Service was riding. Police motorcycles preceded and flanked the motorcade. There were two police motorcycles on the left side of the President's Secret Service follow-up car running abreast of one another between the automobile and the crowd of people.

My instructions for Dallas were to work the left rear of the Presidential automobile and remain in close proximity to Mrs. John F. Kennedy at all times. The agent assigned to work the left rear of the Presidential automobile rides on the forward portion of the left hand running board of the Secret Service follow-up car and only moves forward to walk alongside the Presidential automobile when it slows to such a pace that people can readily approach the auto on foot. If the crowd is very heavy, but the automobile is running at a rather rapid speed, the agent rides on the left rear of the Presidential automobile on a step specifically designed for that purpose.

As the motorcade moved from Love Field through downtown Dallas toward the Trade Mart, there were four (4) occasions before we reached the end of Main Street where I moved from the forward portion of the left running board of the follow-up car to the rear step of the Presidential automobile. I did this because the motorcycles that were along the left hand side of the follow-up car were unable to move up alongside the President's car due to the crowd surging into the street. The motorcycles were forced to drop back and so I jumped from the Follow-up car and mounted the President's car. I remained in this position until the crowd thinned and was away from the President's automobile, allowing the motorcycles to once again move up alongside of the automobile. When we approached the end of Main Street the crowd was noticeably less dense than had been the case prior to that point.

The motorcade made a right hand turn onto Elm Street. I was on the forward portion of the left running board of the follow-up car. The motorcade made a left hand turn from Elm Street toward an underpass. We were traveling about 12 to 15 miles per hour. On the left hand side was a grass area with a few people scattered along it observing the motorcade passing, and I was visually scanning these people when I heard a noise similar to a firecracker. The sound came from my right rear and I immediately moved my head in that direction. In so doing, my eyes had to cross the Presidential automobile and I saw the President hunch forward and then slump to his left. I jumped from the Follow-up car and ran toward the Presidential automobile. I heard a second firecracker type noise but it had a different sound-- like the sound of shooting a revolver into something hard. I saw the President slump more toward his left.

I jumped onto the left rear step of the Presidential automobile. Mrs. Kennedy shouted, "They've shot his head off," then turned and raised out of her seat as if she were reaching to her right rear toward the back of the car for something that had blown out. I forced her back into her seat and placed my body above President and Mrs. Kennedy. SA Greer had, as I jumped onto the Presidential automobile, accelerated the Presidential automobile forward. I heard ASAIC Kellerman call SA Lawson on the two-way radio and say, "To the nearest hospital, quick." I shouted as loud as I could at the Lead car, "To the hospital, to the hospital."

As I lay over the top of the back seat I noticed a portion of the President's head on the right rear side was missing and he was bleeding profusely. Part of his brain was gone. I saw a part of his skull with hair on it lying in the seat. The time of the shooting was approximately 12:30 p.m., Dallas time. I looked forward to the jump seats and noticed Governor Connally's chest was covered with blood and he was slumped to his left and partially covered up by his wife. I had not realized until this point that the Governor had been shot.

When we arrived at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, I jumped off the Presidential automobile, removed my suit coat and covered the President's head and upper chest with it. I assisted in lifting the President from the rear seat of the automobile onto a wheel type stretcher and accompanied the President and Mrs. Kennedy into the Emergency Room. Governor Connally had been placed in an Emergency Room across the hall.

Robin Unger · April 23, 2006

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Francesca Akhtar · April 23, 2006

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Edited September 13, 2009 by Francesca Akhtar

Francesca Akhtar · April 23, 2006

I was joking, Francesca. How could I not be? I do notice that i have a lot of trouble conveying humor, though; I guess I should stop trying.
Ah ok - I thought you probably were but wasn't sure not having seen you post before :-)

Maybe if you add a little smiley when you being humorous thats what I do :-)

I know with the written word, statements etc can look harsher I know what you mean.

Would it have been better if I'd written the first thing I thought of: the part about Clint Hill was the only part I couldn't believe! And no, I don't believe that either; Clint Hill is one of the true great heroes that day in my estimation, another being MLBaker, and I'm very much aware of him beating himself up about not "having done more" and going through hell all these years. That's too bad, but it's proof of just how much character he really does have.

Yea, Im not an expert on the SS but it seems that he felt very bad about what happened even if to my mind he seemed to react a bit slowly, that's just an observation from watching the Z film. I don't know all the technical aspects of how long it should have taken him to reach the car or when he started running etc. But it's easy to be wise after the event as they say.

Maybe their reactions were dulled by the effects of heavy drinking the night before but I certainly don't think that Hill actively just allowed JFK to be shot or participated in any way.

BTW, I would recommend the movie "Dr. Strangelove: or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb." Once the US President talks about how General Ripper has gone overboard in ordering his flight squadron to drop their nuclear weapons on the USSR, the General played by George C. Scott says, "I think we oughta hold back judgement until all the facts are in."

Ah, I see :-) I have never seen that film although hear it's a good one. Isn't Peter Sellers in that? Or am I thinking of another film?

Bill Cheslock · April 23, 2006

That's terrible. I had no idea of this. I suppose one has to take his word for the amount he drank? The times would barely give him a decent night sleep and then be bright and ready for the job. One way or the other, some impairment of function sounds reasonable to expect. (I wonder if there are any hints of 'upper' use? Hair of the dog? One wouldn't expect them to be keen to admit to any sort of abuse. Whose idea was it to go to town? Had they been released to do so, was it standard practise? no doubt all this has been hashed over previously.)

John - this is a well known and well worn subject. This was partially covered also in a thread on the first black SS - Lamar Waldron - concerning the drinking by the SS. One link to Lamar...

http://www.calitreview.com/Interviews/waldron_8024.htm

There has been speculation concerning the bartender at the Cellar who served the drinks - Pat Kirkwood - you can Google this, or probably even do a search here on the Forum for more info - how many SS were actually there [anyone's guess since I have seen different numbers], who drank how much and who left at

what time - probably a mystery for all time. :beer :beer :beer :maggieJ

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/v2n1/chrono2.pdf

The fact of the matter is plain and I feel strongly about this in terms of my personal opinion - anyone that had been drinking at the Cellar the evening before the assassination should have been instantly terminated without further renumeration of any kind. PERIOD. No pension, no benefits, no severance. Their primary function was to protect the Commander-in-Chief. Not only did they fail to perform this task miserably, but some of them had been up until the wee hours of that very day - and we are talking about grain alcohol and a cover-up on this matter as well. FIRED - instantly.

Why should they have been treated any differently than anyone else? Would anyone in a similar professional capacity today be extended the same 'courtesy?'

Fired and with shame heaped upon all their heads...and lucky to have this as an option. In some Countries they would have simply been taken out back and shot.

Clint Hill didn't seem to appreciate Vince Salandria's last published work. Was he fit for duty when he protected a corpse all the way to Parkland? The other SS are not heroes - if something I heard once was on the level, then firepower prepared in Dealey - according to plan - was anticipating retaliation - not flight. Does that not make them cowards? It doesn't matter how you feel about Kennedy - objectively speaking, they fled - despite the fact that shots were being fired and they were armed to the teeth. Is that logical? Is that in any way logical?

Then there were the write-ups on the SS and the difficulty of their job, their rigorous training, how they could not have been blamed for what transpired etc., along with the Oswald propaganda, poor Kennedy, and 'that LBJ is one cool SOB stuff' - absurd. But that is the phenomenon of recorded history and the 'Golden Rule.'

- lee

Lee

I agree totally that these SS men should've been disciplined according to the guidelines put

forth by Section 10, Chapter 1, page 7 of the SS manual. I consider this episode a coverup within

the coverup.

Actually, it is not a mystery as to who consumed what, how much, and what time they did leave.

It's all in the agents' reports to Chief Rowley. They were;

David Grant, 1 scotch, left the Cellar at 2:45 a.m.

Richard Johnsen, 2 beers at the Press Club, left the Cellar at 12:45 a.m.

John Ready, 2 beers at the Press Club, 2 "fruit drinks" at the Cellar, left the Cellar at 3:15 a.m.

Clint Hill, 1 scotch at the Press Club, 1 "fruit drink" at the Cellar, left the Cellar at 2:45 a.m.

Ernest Olsen, 1 1/2 "fruit drink" at the Cellar, left the Cellar at 1 a.m.

Paul Landis, 1 scotch at the Press Club, 2 "fruit drinks" at the Cellar, left the Cellar at 5 a.m.

Donald Lawton, 3 beers at the Press Club, 2 "fruit drinks" at the Cellar, left the Cellar at 3 a.m.

Andrew Berger, 2 beers at the Press Club, 1 "fruit drink" at the Cellar, left the Cellar at 2:15 a.m.

Glenn Bennett, 2 beers at the Press Club, 2 "fruit drinks" at the Cellar, left the Cellar at 3:00 a.m.

(Source for the above reports is CE 1020)

According to Vince Palamara's excellent book, "The Third Alternative," ten men were

in the follow up car directly behind the presidential limousine. (Appendix 1, page 1).

If we exclude the two presidential advisors, Ken O'Donnell and Dave Powers, who were in the

car, actually eight SS men were in or on the car. Four of them are on the list above. They

are John Ready, Clint Hill, Paul Landis, and Glenn Bennett.

Could any of them stop the assassination had their instincts been quicker? That's speculation,

but there must be a reason for the SS manual to have a specific section which prohibits the consumption

of alcoholic beverages while on duty. And all of these men were officially on duty.

One more piece of information from Palamara's book. In the appendix section, there are notes

taken by Palamara when he interviewed Sam Kinney on March 5, 1994, and again on April 15, 1994.

Kinney told Palamara that Emory Roberts recalled SSA Ready and ordered the men not to move (even

after recognizing 1st shot) (p. 3 of hand written notes of interview).

Bill C

Ron Ecker · April 23, 2006

the motorcycles that were along the left hand side of the follow-up car were unable to move up alongside the President's car due to the crowd surging into the street. The motorcycles were forced to drop back

This of course would not have happened if there had been motorcycles beside the president's car as the DPD had planned. It was the Secret Service who the night before ordered a reduction in motorcycles, and ordered that they be moved back. This is called security stripping.

It has been suggested that there were SS agents drinking till the wee hours the night before because they knew what was going to happen and perhaps felt kind of guilty about it. I wouldn't doubt that all. Hill probably thought they were drinking just to have a good time.

John Dolva · April 23, 2006