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The Parkland "scuffle" for the JFK body


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I have been wondering whether the PARKLAND SCUFFLE was

a deliberate DIVERSION to distract everyone.

Magicians do this routinely. It is called MISDIRECTION.

Did something important happen during the scuffle?

Maybe the body diverted?

Discussion solicited. More details needed.

Jack

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I have always wondered about the magic bullet falling onto/off of a stretcher.

There was plenty of misdirection that day, starting with the epileptic in Dealey. The list of distractions itself is quite remarkable...

The whole Parkland thing reeks of a setup:

Someone obviously knew well beforehand what was going to go down in order to "show up" and "find" a bullet that is supposedly going to implicate a lone assassin

OR

The "tale" of the bullet itself and how it got in the hands of the WC was made up after the fact.

That bullet was fired into a bag of sand at some point.

But alot of stuff went on at Parkland:

Washing the Limo.

Finding the magic Bullet.

Connallys magic wounds.

Skull fragments appearing magically from Dealey.

Some questions:

Who actually took credit for finding the bullet?

What time was the bullet found?

Where can I find out more from the Warren Report about the "finding" of this bullet?

Edited by Blair Dobson
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In The Men Who Killed Kennedy, Aubrey Rike, the O'Neil ambulance driver? conveys a convincing account of what took place in Parkland, before the coffin was taken away. He also took part in placing JFK into the coffin which was eventually carried onto AF1.

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Guest Stephen Turner
Some questions:

Who actually took credit for finding the bullet?

What time was the bullet found?

Where can I find out more from the Warren Report about the "finding" of this bullet?

Blair, according to the official report, which, of course may contain more fairy tales than a brothers Grimm compendium.

"OP Wright, personel officer Parkland Hospital, was called by an employee Mr Tomlinson who pointed out to him a bullet, which was on a Hospital Carrage situated in the ground floor Emergency Unit. He ( Wright) estimated the time as being within one hour of President Kennedy being brought to the Hospital." He in turn passed the Bullet on to Agent Richard Johnson who passed it to James Rowley of the Secret service. It finally ends up in the possetion of Mr Frazier of the Eff Bee Eye....BTW he never positvely identified CE 399 as being the same as the Bullet he handed to Johnson.

Edited by Stephen Turner
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In The Men Who Killed Kennedy, Aubrey Rike, the O'Neil ambulance driver? conveys a convincing account of what took place in Parkland, before the coffin was taken away. He also took part in placing JFK into the coffin which was eventually carried onto AF1.

Antti,

I don't believe the scuffle was an attempt on anyones part so to distract - certainly not on Earl Rose's part. I believe the scuffle came about when Rose was about to take an empty coffin and the SS was not going to have any part that.

Bill

Edited by Bill Miller
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I believe the scuffle came about when Rose was about to take an empty coffin and the SS was not going to have any part that.

After the body was placed in the casket, when was it possible to steal it at Parkland? Since Rike said he was with it the whole time, was he in on the conspiracy? Also, there was only one way out of the room.

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After the body was placed in the casket, when was it possible to steal it at Parkland? Since Rike said he was with it the whole time, was he in on the conspiracy? Also, there was only one way out of the room.

I recall reading somewhere that everyone was asked to leave the E.R. area where JFK was ... my memory tells me it was about 15 - 30 minutes in duriation, but its been too long ago to be certain.

Anyway, there obviouskly was a decoy coffin involved because Boswell (at BNMH) admitted to Dennis David that it was the casket that David's team brought into the morgue that had the President's body in it. I believe Dennis told me that this admission by Boswell came on the Monday following the assassination weekend.

Gary Mack tells me of another 'scuffle' that took place at Parkland, as well. Gary said, "The Parkland scuffle was the Secret Service vs. local FBI agent Doyle

Williams, who is now deceased. His report about the incident is at NARA.

Hoover called the Dallas office and ordered someone to be present in the

room, if at all possible. Williams tried to enter the operating room and,

for some reason, was thrown to the floor by the SS. Apparently he was told

to stand back and he refused.

We interviewed him several years ago telling his story for a local 1/2 hour

program called, JFK: The Torch Is Passed. Unfortunately, the Museum has not

yet made it available on home video. In it, Williams showed his copy of his

report to HQ. Williams, who drove the replica limo for the May 1964 FBI

Dealey Plaza re-creation, is now deceased."

Gary reminds me that the Rose incident was more of a shouting match and some possible back and forth movement of the casket.

Bill

Edited by Bill Miller
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I recall reading somewhere that everyone was asked to leave the E.R. area where JFK was ... my memory tells me it was about 15 - 30 minutes in duriation, but its been too long ago to be certain.

I believe this may occurred for a brief time before the casket arrived. But the nurses washed JFK's body, it was placed in the casket, and Rike stayed with it the whole time. In fact he said he was ordered to stay with it. And he said that he would be afraid to leave the room anyway because of the argument going on outside, which indicates that the ruckus started before the casket even left the room.

Anyway, there obviouskly was a decoy coffin involved because Boswell (at BNMH) admitted to Dennis David that it was the casket that David's team brought into the morgue that had the President's body in it. I believe Dennis told me that this admission by Boswell came on the Monday following the assassination weekend.

There was a decoy casket, but not at Parkland. I believe the only possible time the body could have been stolen was during the swearing-in ceremony. Indeed the need to steal the body has to be the only reason there was a swearing-in at all. It was a completely unnecessary delay, with LBJ lying when he said that RFK told him to take the oath in Dallas. Why would anyone tell him that?

Gary Mack tells me of another 'scuffle' that took place at Parkland, as well. Gary said, "The Parkland scuffle was the Secret Service vs. local FBI agent Doyle

Williams, who is now deceased. His report about the incident is at NARA.

Thanks for this info. This occurred while they were still working on JFK. I couldn't understand why Kellerman made no mention of it in his report or testimony, since according to SS agent Johnsen and Manchester Kellerman took charge of the situation with this guy. Manchester doesn't name the FBI agent, says he just disappeared into "limbo" because he embarrassed the agency. I wondered what was being covered up about this, so it's good to know he's in fact been identified.

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There was a decoy casket, but not at Parkland. I believe the only possible time the body could have been stolen was during the swearing-in ceremony. Indeed the need to steal the body has to be the only reason there was a swearing-in at all. It was a completely unnecessary delay, with LBJ lying when he said that RFK told him to take the oath in Dallas. Why would anyone tell him that?

Didn't William Manchester write that the Kennedy's aides remained with the casket during the swearing in of Johnson on AF1?

Bill

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I believe this may occurred for a brief time before the casket arrived. But the nurses washed JFK's body, it was placed in the casket, and Rike stayed with it the whole time.

Miss BOWRON: And then, we stayed in there with him and cleaned him up, removed all of his clothing and put them all together and Miss Henchliffe gave them to one of the Secret Service men, and we stayed with the body until the coffin came, and helped put him in there, and then we--

Mr. SPECTER - When you say "we", whom do you mean by "we"?

Miss BOWRON - Miss Henchliffe and myself.

And then Mrs. Kennedy wanted to be alone with him after the priests left, so we all came out and sat there outside and she was alone with him in the trauma room, and we didn't go in any more after that.

Did perhaps someone enter the room after Jackie, but before anyone else?

Steve Thomas

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And then Mrs. Kennedy wanted to be alone with him after the priests left, so we all came out and sat there outside and she was alone with him in the trauma room, and we didn't go in any more after that.

Did perhaps someone enter the room after Jackie, but before anyone else?

I think one of two conclusions can be drawn from Bowron's statement. Either Bowron meant that Jackie came in by herself with no staff or Secret Service, but was not actually "alone" in the room, or else Rike was lying about staying with the casket throughout.

From Best Evidence (p. 674):

Rike told me that during the time he was there, Mrs. Kennedy came in twice - once to put a ring on her husband's finger, and a second time, after the coffin was closed. "She came back later on - and it was me, and Peanuts (a fellow worker from the funeral home), and the Catholic priest, and her was in there by ourselves."

Rike told Lifton that "they (the Secret Service) wouldn't let us out of the room, once we put him in." Rike also told Lifton about being "scared to death" by the ruckus involving the SS and Rose.

LIFTON: You never left the room from the time you put the body in the casket until the time the casket left the hospital?

RIKE: No, no; you wouldn't have either. You'd been as scared as we were. . . . I felt safe in there. If you'd been there, no kidding, it was the most unorganized, scary type situation I have ever been in my life. I'm a policeman now, and I've been up against all kinds of stuff.

Edited by Ron Ecker
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Some questions:

Who actually took credit for finding the bullet?

What time was the bullet found?

Where can I find out more from the Warren Report about the "finding" of this bullet?

Blair, according to the official report, which, of course may contain more fairy tales than a brothers Grimm compendium.

"OP Wright, personel officer Parkland Hospital, was called by an employee Mr Tomlinson who pointed out to him a bullet, which was on a Hospital Carrage situated in the ground floor Emergency Unit. He ( Wright) estimated the time as being within one hour of President Kennedy being brought to the Hospital." He in turn passed the Bullet on to Agent Richard Johnson who passed it to James Rowley of the Secret service. It finally ends up in the possetion of Mr Frazier of the Eff Bee Eye....BTW he never positvely identified CE 399 as being the same as the Bullet he handed to Johnson.

Thanks Stephen

Cheers.

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Didn't William Manchester write that the Kennedy's aides remained with the casket during the swearing in of Johnson on AF1?

All of the JFK aides are accounted for in the several photos Stoughton took of the swearing-in, except for General McHugh, who is known to have stayed with the coffin (and wanted everyone on the plane to know he was going to do so), and would therefore be party to the theft.

Larry O'Brien is seen in only one the photos, one taken before the ceremony started. Since he is shown standing near the door to the staff and press section forward of the stateroom, in front of LBJ and everyone else, O'Brien was presumably observing through the door to the press section as were Rufus Youngblood and some others during the swearing-in, there not being room in the stateroom to squeeze everyone in.

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All of the JFK aides are accounted for in the several photos Stoughton took of the swearing-in, except for General McHugh, who is known to have stayed with the coffin (and wanted everyone on the plane to know he was going to do so), and would therefore be party to the theft.

Wasn't Dave Powers on that filght?

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