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Craig Roberts: Kill Zone


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I am sorry to say that Tom's last two posts of his already overly repetivive tho obsure theory, is further testament to what I had previously posted.

I feel that he has said virtually nothing understandable, relevent or proveable in many years !

Charlie Black

Can not find the EZ button Charles?

Try the posting just prior in regards to LHO's USMC rangefire qualification. If you try real hard you just may learn something.

Tom,

Have I got your shooting sequence correct ?

Shot 1 at aprox Z207 (the SBT shot ?)

Shot 2 at Z312/313

Shot 3 at ? (2.3 secs after shot 2, 3.3 secs after shot 2........5.9 secsafter shot 2)

Chris Brown

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I am sorry to say that Tom's last two posts of his already overly repetivive tho obsure theory, is further testament to what I had previously posted.

I feel that he has said virtually nothing understandable, relevent or proveable in many years !

Charlie Black

Can not find the EZ button Charles?

Try the posting just prior in regards to LHO's USMC rangefire qualification. If you try real hard you just may learn something.

Tom,

Have I got your shooting sequence correct ?

Shot 1 at aprox Z207 (the SBT shot ?)

Shot 2 at Z312/313

Shot 3 at ? (2.3 secs after shot 2, 3.3 secs after shot 2........5.9 secsafter shot 2)

Chris Brown

1. Shot#1: (The shot which only lodged a short distance into the back of JFK with a small lead fragment having sheared from the base of this bullet and exited the anterior throat.)

A. Fired at approximately Z204/206.

a. This is the location as determined by Time/Life during their survey work of 11/25/63.

b. This is the location as corresponds with the "blur/jiggle" analysis when one computes the time/elapsed frames of the Z-film for the sound of a shot from the TSDB (5-elapsed frames +/-) and works backwards from the first severely blurred frame of Z209.

c. JFK is located at approximately the Z207 position at the time in the Willis & Betzner photo when Hard Hat Man/Millican can be seen reacting. Considering "instinctive" reaction, would place the shot at about Z206 or just prior.

2. Shot#2: The head shot at Z312/313 (Stationing 4+65.2) Struck JFK in the top rear of the head at the cowlick area, penetrating through the top of the skull/brain and making it's first attempt at exiting in the almost top center of the skull.

Due to the manner in which this bullet's nose encountered the skull in an almost horizontal position, it cut the nose of the bullet to pieces, shearing pieces from the nose and turning the nose of the bullet down into the cerebral tissue, thus cutting and tearing the brain tremendously

As this bullet nose dropped, the base of the bullet began to encounter the skull bone in an almost 90-degree angle, which effectively cut the bulle almost in half.

This happens to be the absolutely ONLY manner in which the skull of the bone can cut a 6.5mm Carcano bullet in too, and all that one has to do is look at the remaining portion of the copper jacket (CE569) to know exactly how this portion of the bullet came to exist.

A fragment of this bullet went forward striking JBC in the right wrist. At the time of this shot, JBC was holding his right arm almost parallel, (just above parallel) with the hand and wrist slightly higher than the elbow.

3. Approximately 2.3 seconds later*, at Stationing 4+96, the third shot impacted the head of JFk.

At the time of impact, JFK was bent forward fully at the waist with his head down, turned to the right, the left side of his head almost down to his left shoulder, and his rolled somewhat backwards in regards to the spinal column.

The bullet passed through JFK's coat at the point of just below the collar turn down, it did not pass through the shirt collar due to the collar being buttoned tightly around the neck and thus bending down with the neck as the heand bent forward.

The bullet penetrated through the coat and the inner liner, exited and struck JFK in the back of the neck at the vicinity of the edge of the hairline.

Due to the manner in which JFK was leaning forward, with his face downward, the bullet on it's downward angle, traversed downward through the soft tissue at the base of the neck, and thus struck JFK in the skull in the vicinity of the EOP.

This bullet passed through the mid-brain area of JFK and exited in the frontal lobe where there had been considerable cerebral as well as skull damage created by the Z312 headshot.

However, it quite obviously struck some area of bone as it blew sections of bone into the direction of James Altgens who was only approximately 15 feet from the President at the time of impact.

This is the bullet entrance which the Autopsy surgeons found.

The EOP area damage which Parkland hospital observed is a result of this shot.

The second shot at Z312 removed that portion of skull from the top of the head of JFK from it's point of entrance at the cowlick to the first point of attempted exit in the top/frontal lobe of the skull.

This is the "flap" of skull which can be clearly seen laying over to the right side of JFK's head after the Z313 headshot.

The third shot now struck skull in which the bone integrity was severely compromised as a result of that portion now missing.

Striking the skull on it's tangent, caused the elongated skull wound as found by the autopsy surgeons, and with a now compromised skull, caused fractures to radiate outward from the point of impact.

These running fractures terminated when they reached the "void" area of the skull where portions of the skull had been removed by the previous shot.

With the skull now fully fragmented, the internal pressure buildup created by the bullet entering the cerebral tissue was more than sufficient to now "blow back" and cause these fragmented pieces of skull to open up backwards.

After having exited the frontal lobe of JFK, this bullet continued on it's downward path and struck JBC in the right rear shoulder.

At the point of impact, JBC had lain across the open area between the jump seats, thus exposing his back to the exiting bullet, and he had pulled his legs up into the fetal position.

After the bullet entered into the chest of JBC, it struck the right fifth rib on a glancing blow, exited the chest of JBC, and thereafter entered into his left leg.

General Notes:

1. Bullet holes through the skull of a human do not move around. The 10cm/4-inch difference as noted by the HSCA Medical Panel is merely that the top/cowlick entry is clearly seen in the anterior/postierior X-ray, whereas the EOP entry is not.

2. The Although the EOP entry can not be seen, the fractures which eminated from this impact can be seen, and they can be clearly seen in the lateral X-ray, leading back downwards towards a dark spot in th skull in the EOP vicinity.

3. Not unlike other items, the autopsy surgeons did not make a mistake in their measurements of the EOP bullet entry.

The measurements which the HSCA Medical Panel resolved are fine for the "Cowlick" entry, which did not strike the head of JFK anywhere near angle of the tangent strike of the third shot.

Hope that answered most of your questions.

And, for anyone who has studied the evidence, they know absolutely that the Autopsy Surgeons did not make the 4-inch mistake in measurement of the back of the head entry.

The base of the neck/edge of the hairline entry wound for the third shot was "sectioned" by the autopsy surgeons.

This sample was later examined under microscope and revealed he normal "burning" characteristics of bullet entry.

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I am sorry to say that Tom's last two posts of his already overly repetivive tho obsure theory, is further testament to what I had previously posted.

I feel that he has said virtually nothing understandable, relevent or proveable in many years !

Charlie Black

Can not find the EZ button Charles?

Try the posting just prior in regards to LHO's USMC rangefire qualification. If you try real hard you just may learn something.

Tom,

Have I got your shooting sequence correct ?

Shot 1 at aprox Z207 (the SBT shot ?)

Shot 2 at Z312/313

Shot 3 at ? (2.3 secs after shot 2, 3.3 secs after shot 2........5.9 secsafter shot 2)

Chris Brown

1. Shot#1: (The shot which only lodged a short distance into the back of JFK with a small lead fragment having sheared from the base of this bullet and exited the anterior throat.)

A. Fired at approximately Z204/206.

a. This is the location as determined by Time/Life during their survey work of 11/25/63.

b. This is the location as corresponds with the "blur/jiggle" analysis when one computes the time/elapsed frames of the Z-film for the sound of a shot from the TSDB (5-elapsed frames +/-) and works backwards from the first severely blurred frame of Z209.

c. JFK is located at approximately the Z207 position at the time in the Willis & Betzner photo when Hard Hat Man/Millican can be seen reacting. Considering "instinctive" reaction, would place the shot at about Z206 or just prior.

2. Shot#2: The head shot at Z312/313 (Stationing 4+65.2) Struck JFK in the top rear of the head at the cowlick area, penetrating through the top of the skull/brain and making it's first attempt at exiting in the almost top center of the skull.

Due to the manner in which this bullet's nose encountered the skull in an almost horizontal position, it cut the nose of the bullet to pieces, shearing pieces from the nose and turning the nose of the bullet down into the cerebral tissue, thus cutting and tearing the brain tremendously

As this bullet nose dropped, the base of the bullet began to encounter the skull bone in an almost 90-degree angle, which effectively cut the bulle almost in half.

This happens to be the absolutely ONLY manner in which the skull of the bone can cut a 6.5mm Carcano bullet in too, and all that one has to do is look at the remaining portion of the copper jacket (CE569) to know exactly how this portion of the bullet came to exist.

A fragment of this bullet went forward striking JBC in the right wrist. At the time of this shot, JBC was holding his right arm almost parallel, (just above parallel) with the hand and wrist slightly higher than the elbow.

3. Approximately 2.3 seconds later*, at Stationing 4+96, the third shot impacted the head of JFk.

At the time of impact, JFK was bent forward fully at the waist with his head down, turned to the right, the left side of his head almost down to his left shoulder, and his rolled somewhat backwards in regards to the spinal column.

The bullet passed through JFK's coat at the point of just below the collar turn down, it did not pass through the shirt collar due to the collar being buttoned tightly around the neck and thus bending down with the neck as the heand bent forward.

The bullet penetrated through the coat and the inner liner, exited and struck JFK in the back of the neck at the vicinity of the edge of the hairline.

Due to the manner in which JFK was leaning forward, with his face downward, the bullet on it's downward angle, traversed downward through the soft tissue at the base of the neck, and thus struck JFK in the skull in the vicinity of the EOP.

This bullet passed through the mid-brain area of JFK and exited in the frontal lobe where there had been considerable cerebral as well as skull damage created by the Z312 headshot.

However, it quite obviously struck some area of bone as it blew sections of bone into the direction of James Altgens who was only approximately 15 feet from the President at the time of impact.

This is the bullet entrance which the Autopsy surgeons found.

The EOP area damage which Parkland hospital observed is a result of this shot.

The second shot at Z312 removed that portion of skull from the top of the head of JFK from it's point of entrance at the cowlick to the first point of attempted exit in the top/frontal lobe of the skull.

This is the "flap" of skull which can be clearly seen laying over to the right side of JFK's head after the Z313 headshot.

The third shot now struck skull in which the bone integrity was severely compromised as a result of that portion now missing.

Striking the skull on it's tangent, caused the elongated skull wound as found by the autopsy surgeons, and with a now compromised skull, caused fractures to radiate outward from the point of impact.

These running fractures terminated when they reached the "void" area of the skull where portions of the skull had been removed by the previous shot.

With the skull now fully fragmented, the internal pressure buildup created by the bullet entering the cerebral tissue was more than sufficient to now "blow back" and cause these fragmented pieces of skull to open up backwards.

After having exited the frontal lobe of JFK, this bullet continued on it's downward path and struck JBC in the right rear shoulder.

At the point of impact, JBC had lain across the open area between the jump seats, thus exposing his back to the exiting bullet, and he had pulled his legs up into the fetal position.

After the bullet entered into the chest of JBC, it struck the right fifth rib on a glancing blow, exited the chest of JBC, and thereafter entered into his left leg.

General Notes:

1. Bullet holes through the skull of a human do not move around. The 10cm/4-inch difference as noted by the HSCA Medical Panel is merely that the top/cowlick entry is clearly seen in the anterior/postierior X-ray, whereas the EOP entry is not.

2. The Although the EOP entry can not be seen, the fractures which eminated from this impact can be seen, and they can be clearly seen in the lateral X-ray, leading back downwards towards a dark spot in th skull in the EOP vicinity.

3. Not unlike other items, the autopsy surgeons did not make a mistake in their measurements of the EOP bullet entry.

The measurements which the HSCA Medical Panel resolved are fine for the "Cowlick" entry, which did not strike the head of JFK anywhere near angle of the tangent strike of the third shot.

Hope that answered most of your questions.

And, for anyone who has studied the evidence, they know absolutely that the Autopsy Surgeons did not make the 4-inch mistake in measurement of the back of the head entry.

The base of the neck/edge of the hairline entry wound for the third shot was "sectioned" by the autopsy surgeons.

This sample was later examined under microscope and revealed he normal "burning" characteristics of bullet entry.

Chris, the above response did not go to the head of the class the first time around.

Anyway:

Shot# 1 (Z204/206)

5.9 seconds later, Shot#2 (Z312/313) Stationing 4+65.3

2.3 seconds later (+/-) Shot#3 down in front of James Altgens. Stationing 4+96

Hope that now defines the "Kill Zone"

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I am sorry to say that Tom's last two posts of his already overly repetivive tho obsure theory, is further testament to what I had previously posted.

I feel that he has said virtually nothing understandable, relevent or proveable in many years !

Charlie Black

Can not find the EZ button Charles?

Try the posting just prior in regards to LHO's USMC rangefire qualification. If you try real hard you just may learn something.

Tom,

Have I got your shooting sequence correct ?

Shot 1 at aprox Z207 (the SBT shot ?)

Shot 2 at Z312/313

Shot 3 at ? (2.3 secs after shot 2, 3.3 secs after shot 2........5.9 secsafter shot 2)

Chris Brown

1. Shot#1: (The shot which only lodged a short distance into the back of JFK with a small lead fragment having sheared from the base of this bullet and exited the anterior throat.)

A. Fired at approximately Z204/206.

a. This is the location as determined by Time/Life during their survey work of 11/25/63.

b. This is the location as corresponds with the "blur/jiggle" analysis when one computes the time/elapsed frames of the Z-film for the sound of a shot from the TSDB (5-elapsed frames +/-) and works backwards from the first severely blurred frame of Z209.

c. JFK is located at approximately the Z207 position at the time in the Willis & Betzner photo when Hard Hat Man/Millican can be seen reacting. Considering "instinctive" reaction, would place the shot at about Z206 or just prior.

2. Shot#2: The head shot at Z312/313 (Stationing 4+65.2) Struck JFK in the top rear of the head at the cowlick area, penetrating through the top of the skull/brain and making it's first attempt at exiting in the almost top center of the skull.

Due to the manner in which this bullet's nose encountered the skull in an almost horizontal position, it cut the nose of the bullet to pieces, shearing pieces from the nose and turning the nose of the bullet down into the cerebral tissue, thus cutting and tearing the brain tremendously

As this bullet nose dropped, the base of the bullet began to encounter the skull bone in an almost 90-degree angle, which effectively cut the bulle almost in half.

This happens to be the absolutely ONLY manner in which the skull of the bone can cut a 6.5mm Carcano bullet in too, and all that one has to do is look at the remaining portion of the copper jacket (CE569) to know exactly how this portion of the bullet came to exist.

A fragment of this bullet went forward striking JBC in the right wrist. At the time of this shot, JBC was holding his right arm almost parallel, (just above parallel) with the hand and wrist slightly higher than the elbow.

3. Approximately 2.3 seconds later*, at Stationing 4+96, the third shot impacted the head of JFk.

At the time of impact, JFK was bent forward fully at the waist with his head down, turned to the right, the left side of his head almost down to his left shoulder, and his rolled somewhat backwards in regards to the spinal column.

The bullet passed through JFK's coat at the point of just below the collar turn down, it did not pass through the shirt collar due to the collar being buttoned tightly around the neck and thus bending down with the neck as the heand bent forward.

The bullet penetrated through the coat and the inner liner, exited and struck JFK in the back of the neck at the vicinity of the edge of the hairline.

Due to the manner in which JFK was leaning forward, with his face downward, the bullet on it's downward angle, traversed downward through the soft tissue at the base of the neck, and thus struck JFK in the skull in the vicinity of the EOP.

This bullet passed through the mid-brain area of JFK and exited in the frontal lobe where there had been considerable cerebral as well as skull damage created by the Z312 headshot.

However, it quite obviously struck some area of bone as it blew sections of bone into the direction of James Altgens who was only approximately 15 feet from the President at the time of impact.

This is the bullet entrance which the Autopsy surgeons found.

The EOP area damage which Parkland hospital observed is a result of this shot.

The second shot at Z312 removed that portion of skull from the top of the head of JFK from it's point of entrance at the cowlick to the first point of attempted exit in the top/frontal lobe of the skull.

This is the "flap" of skull which can be clearly seen laying over to the right side of JFK's head after the Z313 headshot.

The third shot now struck skull in which the bone integrity was severely compromised as a result of that portion now missing.

Striking the skull on it's tangent, caused the elongated skull wound as found by the autopsy surgeons, and with a now compromised skull, caused fractures to radiate outward from the point of impact.

These running fractures terminated when they reached the "void" area of the skull where portions of the skull had been removed by the previous shot.

With the skull now fully fragmented, the internal pressure buildup created by the bullet entering the cerebral tissue was more than sufficient to now "blow back" and cause these fragmented pieces of skull to open up backwards.

After having exited the frontal lobe of JFK, this bullet continued on it's downward path and struck JBC in the right rear shoulder.

At the point of impact, JBC had lain across the open area between the jump seats, thus exposing his back to the exiting bullet, and he had pulled his legs up into the fetal position.

After the bullet entered into the chest of JBC, it struck the right fifth rib on a glancing blow, exited the chest of JBC, and thereafter entered into his left leg.

General Notes:

1. Bullet holes through the skull of a human do not move around. The 10cm/4-inch difference as noted by the HSCA Medical Panel is merely that the top/cowlick entry is clearly seen in the anterior/postierior X-ray, whereas the EOP entry is not.

2. The Although the EOP entry can not be seen, the fractures which eminated from this impact can be seen, and they can be clearly seen in the lateral X-ray, leading back downwards towards a dark spot in th skull in the EOP vicinity.

3. Not unlike other items, the autopsy surgeons did not make a mistake in their measurements of the EOP bullet entry.

The measurements which the HSCA Medical Panel resolved are fine for the "Cowlick" entry, which did not strike the head of JFK anywhere near angle of the tangent strike of the third shot.

Hope that answered most of your questions.

And, for anyone who has studied the evidence, they know absolutely that the Autopsy Surgeons did not make the 4-inch mistake in measurement of the back of the head entry.

The base of the neck/edge of the hairline entry wound for the third shot was "sectioned" by the autopsy surgeons.

This sample was later examined under microscope and revealed he normal "burning" characteristics of bullet entry.

Chris, the above response did not go to the head of the class the first time around.

Anyway:

Shot# 1 (Z204/206)

5.9 seconds later, Shot#2 (Z312/313) Stationing 4+65.3

2.3 seconds later (+/-) Shot#3 down in front of James Altgens. Stationing 4+96

Hope that now defines the "Kill Zone"

Thanks Tom,

Interesting and detailed reply.

I will study your shooting sequence in conjunction with the Zapruder film,

which I'm sure help me get a clearer picture of your detailed response.

I'm still of the opinion that the assassination was impossible for one person to pull off.

8.2 seconds IMO is still a short time frame.

Can you clarify the meaning of EOP and stationing 4+65.3 (4+96)

Chris Brown.

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I'm no shooter, but from what I've read, the south knoll would be the best spot, from the standpoint that the target would be moving straight toward you, whereas from behind the north knoll fence the target would be moving toward you at an angle. I believe the south knoll would also allow more time to aim and fire without obstructions.

Roberts doesn't mention the south knoll, and I wonder if he went over there and looked.

that's right Ron, the limosine would be moving directly toward a south knoll shooter,

but a grassy knoll shooter would have had an oblique angle (and probably would have hit Jackie)

Tosh Plumlee, a respected member of the Forum, testified to a South Shooter, and

I think the emphasis on Zapruder, the fence and the Bookstore Depository are red herrings.

The main sniper was forward and to the left and escaped unnoticed..............

Hi Shanet

I've read the fine piece of work(s) by one of the girls who runs the JFK Lancer forum. The blood spatter analysis is compelling, however in her article on the south Knoll shooter she gives a divergence angle of 55 degrees in which the first 30 degrees covers most of the south knoll and the remaining 25 degrees covers all of the overpass railroad bridge and the last part of the grassy knoll fence. I can't see how a shot from any angle in the first 30 degrees could enter on the side of JFK's head.

I can't agree with your comment that a shot from the grassy knoll would probably have hit Jackie; I would say she was more likely to have been hit by a shot from the south knoll as she was on that side of the limo.

Maybe my view will change when I have visited Dealy Plaza (which I hope to do this year) and study the topography in detail.

Chris Brown.

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I am sorry to say that Tom's last two posts of his already overly repetivive tho obsure theory, is further testament to what I had previously posted.

I feel that he has said virtually nothing understandable, relevent or proveable in many years !

Charlie Black

Can not find the EZ button Charles?

Try the posting just prior in regards to LHO's USMC rangefire qualification. If you try real hard you just may learn something.

Tom,

Have I got your shooting sequence correct ?

Shot 1 at aprox Z207 (the SBT shot ?)

Shot 2 at Z312/313

Shot 3 at ? (2.3 secs after shot 2, 3.3 secs after shot 2........5.9 secsafter shot 2)

Chris Brown

1. Shot#1: (The shot which only lodged a short distance into the back of JFK with a small lead fragment having sheared from the base of this bullet and exited the anterior throat.)

A. Fired at approximately Z204/206.

a. This is the location as determined by Time/Life during their survey work of 11/25/63.

b. This is the location as corresponds with the "blur/jiggle" analysis when one computes the time/elapsed frames of the Z-film for the sound of a shot from the TSDB (5-elapsed frames +/-) and works backwards from the first severely blurred frame of Z209.

c. JFK is located at approximately the Z207 position at the time in the Willis & Betzner photo when Hard Hat Man/Millican can be seen reacting. Considering "instinctive" reaction, would place the shot at about Z206 or just prior.

2. Shot#2: The head shot at Z312/313 (Stationing 4+65.2) Struck JFK in the top rear of the head at the cowlick area, penetrating through the top of the skull/brain and making it's first attempt at exiting in the almost top center of the skull.

Due to the manner in which this bullet's nose encountered the skull in an almost horizontal position, it cut the nose of the bullet to pieces, shearing pieces from the nose and turning the nose of the bullet down into the cerebral tissue, thus cutting and tearing the brain tremendously

As this bullet nose dropped, the base of the bullet began to encounter the skull bone in an almost 90-degree angle, which effectively cut the bulle almost in half.

This happens to be the absolutely ONLY manner in which the skull of the bone can cut a 6.5mm Carcano bullet in too, and all that one has to do is look at the remaining portion of the copper jacket (CE569) to know exactly how this portion of the bullet came to exist.

A fragment of this bullet went forward striking JBC in the right wrist. At the time of this shot, JBC was holding his right arm almost parallel, (just above parallel) with the hand and wrist slightly higher than the elbow.

3. Approximately 2.3 seconds later*, at Stationing 4+96, the third shot impacted the head of JFk.

At the time of impact, JFK was bent forward fully at the waist with his head down, turned to the right, the left side of his head almost down to his left shoulder, and his rolled somewhat backwards in regards to the spinal column.

The bullet passed through JFK's coat at the point of just below the collar turn down, it did not pass through the shirt collar due to the collar being buttoned tightly around the neck and thus bending down with the neck as the heand bent forward.

The bullet penetrated through the coat and the inner liner, exited and struck JFK in the back of the neck at the vicinity of the edge of the hairline.

Due to the manner in which JFK was leaning forward, with his face downward, the bullet on it's downward angle, traversed downward through the soft tissue at the base of the neck, and thus struck JFK in the skull in the vicinity of the EOP.

This bullet passed through the mid-brain area of JFK and exited in the frontal lobe where there had been considerable cerebral as well as skull damage created by the Z312 headshot.

However, it quite obviously struck some area of bone as it blew sections of bone into the direction of James Altgens who was only approximately 15 feet from the President at the time of impact.

This is the bullet entrance which the Autopsy surgeons found.

The EOP area damage which Parkland hospital observed is a result of this shot.

The second shot at Z312 removed that portion of skull from the top of the head of JFK from it's point of entrance at the cowlick to the first point of attempted exit in the top/frontal lobe of the skull.

This is the "flap" of skull which can be clearly seen laying over to the right side of JFK's head after the Z313 headshot.

The third shot now struck skull in which the bone integrity was severely compromised as a result of that portion now missing.

Striking the skull on it's tangent, caused the elongated skull wound as found by the autopsy surgeons, and with a now compromised skull, caused fractures to radiate outward from the point of impact.

These running fractures terminated when they reached the "void" area of the skull where portions of the skull had been removed by the previous shot.

With the skull now fully fragmented, the internal pressure buildup created by the bullet entering the cerebral tissue was more than sufficient to now "blow back" and cause these fragmented pieces of skull to open up backwards.

After having exited the frontal lobe of JFK, this bullet continued on it's downward path and struck JBC in the right rear shoulder.

At the point of impact, JBC had lain across the open area between the jump seats, thus exposing his back to the exiting bullet, and he had pulled his legs up into the fetal position.

After the bullet entered into the chest of JBC, it struck the right fifth rib on a glancing blow, exited the chest of JBC, and thereafter entered into his left leg.

General Notes:

1. Bullet holes through the skull of a human do not move around. The 10cm/4-inch difference as noted by the HSCA Medical Panel is merely that the top/cowlick entry is clearly seen in the anterior/postierior X-ray, whereas the EOP entry is not.

2. The Although the EOP entry can not be seen, the fractures which eminated from this impact can be seen, and they can be clearly seen in the lateral X-ray, leading back downwards towards a dark spot in th skull in the EOP vicinity.

3. Not unlike other items, the autopsy surgeons did not make a mistake in their measurements of the EOP bullet entry.

The measurements which the HSCA Medical Panel resolved are fine for the "Cowlick" entry, which did not strike the head of JFK anywhere near angle of the tangent strike of the third shot.

Hope that answered most of your questions.

And, for anyone who has studied the evidence, they know absolutely that the Autopsy Surgeons did not make the 4-inch mistake in measurement of the back of the head entry.

The base of the neck/edge of the hairline entry wound for the third shot was "sectioned" by the autopsy surgeons.

This sample was later examined under microscope and revealed he normal "burning" characteristics of bullet entry.

Chris, the above response did not go to the head of the class the first time around.

Anyway:

Shot# 1 (Z204/206)

5.9 seconds later, Shot#2 (Z312/313) Stationing 4+65.3

2.3 seconds later (+/-) Shot#3 down in front of James Altgens. Stationing 4+96

Hope that now defines the "Kill Zone"

Thanks Tom,

Interesting and detailed reply.

I will study your shooting sequence in conjunction with the Zapruder film,

which I'm sure help me get a clearer picture of your detailed response.

I'm still of the opinion that the assassination was impossible for one person to pull off.

8.2 seconds IMO is still a short time frame.

Can you clarify the meaning of EOP and stationing 4+65.3 (4+96)

Chris Brown.

I'm still of the opinion that the assassination was impossible for one person to pull off.

8.2 seconds IMO is still a short time frame.

In order to not have a "trick" question, ask any shooter if 5.9 seconds would appear to be adequate time in which the re-acquire a target (through a scope) which is moving away from the shooting position in an almost straight line, and achieve a headshot hit?

Thereafter, ask if 2.3 seconds would appear to be sufficient time in which one could then get off a "snap shot" in which only the iron sights were utilized.

One has absolutely no concept as to exactly how long 8.2 or even 5.9 seconds is until such time as they exit a plane in free-fall, and have to count to that number prior to opening their main parachute.

Can you clarify the meaning of EOP and stationing 4+65.3 (4+96)

http://anatomy.med.umich.edu/radiology/hea...ll_lateral.html

Item "4" at the rear base of the skull.

External Occipital Probuberance

http://www.jfklancer.com/photos/medical/Xray.gif

Stationing 4+65.3 is the survey stationing (measurement length down Elm St. from an established 0+00 point back up at Elm St. and Huston St.

Meaning, this point is 465.3 feet from the beginning point.

It is the impact location for the Z312/313 headshot.

Stationing 4+96 is approximately 30-feet farther down Elm St. than the Z312/313 headshot location, and is the impact point for the third/last/final shot, down directly in front of James Altgens.

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Chris, Tom and I have been around this rosey a few times... and I don't have the energy to get into it just now... but there are some real problems with his scenario. He is right in that the head shot was the second shot heard by the bulk of the witnesses, and he is also correct in that there was an entrance low on Kennedy's head as reported at the autopsy. But much of the rest of it doesn't add up.

You may want to check out my presentation at the link below. I spend a couple of hundred pages explaining why I believe that 1) the first bullet probably hit Kennedy and fell out, much as Tom describes, except at circa Z-190; 2) a second silenced shot or shots hit Kennedy and Connally at Z-224, with the Kennedy bullet entering near his EOP and being deflected down his neck; 3) a third shot interpreted by most as the second shot hit Kennedy near his right temple, from behind, and blasted off the top of his head; and 4) a missed shot or firecracker from the right of the motorcade startled the crowd, and led many of them to believe the shots came from the knoll.

My problems with Tom's scenario include

1) It seems obvious to me that Connally is hit before the head shot at 313. Every bit of eyewitness evidence and testimony indicates as much, as does the Zapruder film, which shows him wince and collapse at Z-224.

2) The largest jiggle on the Zapruder film prior to the headshot comes after Z-190. When asked by the Warren Commission attorneys where HE thought Kennedy was hit, Connally said Z-190. Phil Willis said he took his picture AFTER he heard the first shot. His picture was taken at Z-202. Several witnesses said Kennedy was waving when the first shot rang out. Kennedy stops waving just after Z-190. This indicates a hit circa Z-190.

3) There was no entrance in the cowlick observed at autopsy. Despite Tom's claims, there is no consensus as to the location of this entrance on the x-rays. Most of the radiologists merely mentioned the fractures on the back of the head, without isolating a bullet entrance. The autopsy photo of the back of the head reveals a small elliptical red spot, not a bullet entrance. I believe that some of the forensic pathologists claiming this to be an entrance are off-base. They have seen so many .22 caliber entrances that this entrance looks normal to them. The entrance of a .25 caliber military jacketed bullet, that explodes upon entry, would be substantially different and larger than the small shape on the back of the head photo. An entrance where a bullet is cut in half, with half the bullet continuing on without entering the skull, creates what is known as a keyhole entrance. In my presentation, I compare the lower margin of the Harper fragment by the temple and reveal it to be the upper margin of a keyhole entrance. There is no impact at the back of Kennedy's head at 313. Sherry G. is quite correct on that.

Hope this helps...

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All Members & Moderators

Does anyone other than myself find it difficult to engage in threads in which Tom Purvis has an interest, due to the repetitiveness which one must wade thru, in order to post a response?

I feel that this type of posting is a great waste of forum space as well as members time. Unless I want to devote much time unnecessarily re-reading thru the exact same information, I personally often find it easier to disengage from the discussion.

I feel that this is a disservice to the forum.

I don't feel that I am advocating the curtailment of "free speech" or attempting to limit Tom's method of expression, but I feel that the unnecessary elongation of a topic in this manner is rude and tends to diminish the participation of others. It allows for a single individual to dominate a thread. It is similar to an American Congressional fillibuster ! It isn't breaking any specific rule, however it seems to be very self seeking.

Charlie Black

Charlie Black

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Charles,

I share your frustration. I have been frequenting JFK assassination message boards for a long time, and I've never seen a poster like Tom Purvis. He is so utterly secure in his beliefs; the problem is, none of us can understand exactly what he's saying. When pressed on this, he adopts a mysterious, know-it-all posture, and questions our knowledge. I've been researching this case for over 30 years, but this guy is one of a kind. An LNer who thinks the Warren Commission was a travesty and the Zapruder film is a fake! Of course, I think that's what he believes- he can correct me if I'm wrong. It's not easy wading through all the excess verbiage to find the point he's trying to make. I'd never advocate stopping him from expressing his beliefs; it's just that he does post a lot, and it's more difficult to sift through his lengthy messages than it is for other posters.

I would like to humbly suggest to Tom and some other posters that they reply to a thread without leaving the entire previous post (and others before it) in the body of their message. This makes it tedious to keep scrolling down throuh previous messages to find the new comment. You can quote the parts you want to respond to, but leaving the entire previous message (especially if it's long, like Tom Purvis's almost always are) is unnecessary. It's just a suggestion.

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Chris, Tom and I have been around this rosey a few times... and I don't have the energy to get into it just now... but there are some real problems with his scenario. He is right in that the head shot was the second shot heard by the bulk of the witnesses, and he is also correct in that there was an entrance low on Kennedy's head as reported at the autopsy. But much of the rest of it doesn't add up.You may want to check out my presentation at the link below. I spend a couple of hundred pages explaining why I believe that 1) the first bullet probably hit Kennedy and fell out, much as Tom describes, except at circa Z-190; 2) a second silenced shot or shots hit Kennedy and Connally at Z-224, with the Kennedy bullet entering near his EOP and being deflected down his neck; 3) a third shot interpreted by most as the second shot hit Kennedy near his right temple, from behind, and blasted off the top of his head; and 4) a missed shot or firecracker from the right of the motorcade startled the crowd, and led many of them to believe the shots came from the knoll.

My problems with Tom's scenario include

1) It seems obvious to me that Connally is hit before the head shot at 313. Every bit of eyewitness evidence and testimony indicates as much, as does the Zapruder film, which shows him wince and collapse at Z-224.

2) The largest jiggle on the Zapruder film prior to the headshot comes after Z-190. When asked by the Warren Commission attorneys where HE thought Kennedy was hit, Connally said Z-190. Phil Willis said he took his picture AFTER he heard the first shot. His picture was taken at Z-202. Several witnesses said Kennedy was waving when the first shot rang out. Kennedy stops waving just after Z-190. This indicates a hit circa Z-190.

3) There was no entrance in the cowlick observed at autopsy. Despite Tom's claims, there is no consensus as to the location of this entrance on the x-rays. Most of the radiologists merely mentioned the fractures on the back of the head, without isolating a bullet entrance. The autopsy photo of the back of the head reveals a small elliptical red spot, not a bullet entrance. I believe that some of the forensic pathologists claiming this to be an entrance are off-base. They have seen so many .22 caliber entrances that this entrance looks normal to them. The entrance of a .25 caliber military jacketed bullet, that explodes upon entry, would be substantially different and larger than the small shape on the back of the head photo. An entrance where a bullet is cut in half, with half the bullet continuing on without entering the skull, creates what is known as a keyhole entrance. In my presentation, I compare the lower margin of the Harper fragment by the temple and reveal it to be the upper margin of a keyhole entrance. There is no impact at the back of Kennedy's head at 313. Sherry G. is quite correct on that.

Hope this helps...

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsc...eport_0039a.htm

The reportedly Z190 is hardly anything new to come down the pike.

Fortunately, few have heard or read of it, and fewer yet accept it as having any validity.

One can order a copy of the "Blur/Jiggle" analysis which the HSCA did in their evaluation, and it is in a graph form.

Unfortunately, not unlike a previously slight-of-hand episode with the film, (The Warren Commission) Z208/209/210/ & 211 were not even provided to the HSCA for review and are thus completely omitted from their report and the graph.

Hey! If something worked well the first time, don't be afraid to utilize it again.

But much of the rest of it doesn't add up.

Failure to understand the evidence is not, of itself, indicative that the evidence is invalid.

In fact, one must fully understand the evidence before validity of anything can be established.

Phil Willis said he took his picture AFTER he heard the first shot. His picture was taken at Z-202.

Actually! The Willis photo is much closer to Z206/208 than to Z202.

The first and easiest indicator is the pill box outline of Jackie's hat after she had turned to look at JFK. From the rear in the Willis and the front in the Zapruder.

Secondly, there is a considerably more accurate means to determine exactly what frame the Willis photo actually is.

Kennedy stops waving just after Z-190. This indicates a hit circa Z-190.

In event JFK ceased to wave, then this would mean that he ceased to wave. Not that he ceased to wave because he was hit.

Despite Tom's claims, there is no consensus as to the location of this entrance on the x-rays

Must have missed that claim Pat!

Tom states:

1. The autopsy surgeons have, in their autopsy report as well as orally, multiple times indicated that the bullet entrance wound which they saw and examined in the back of the skull of JFK, entered slightly above and to the right of the EOP, and that it had multiple fractures radiating from the point of entry in various directions.

Other descriptions have placed the entrance at the edge of the hairline.

And, I might add, the autopsy surgeons took a tissue sample from this point of entry through the scalp.

2. http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsc..._Vol7_0057b.htm

The HSCA Panel not only placed the entrance hold that they saw in the top of the head at the cowlick area, it's dimensions through the skull also were given as being different from those dimensions which the autopsy surgeons gave for the EOP entry through the skull.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, since the Autopsy surgeons as well as others have completely identified the entry location for the wound to the back of the head that they found, and the HSCA has completely identified the entry location for the wound to the back of the head which they found, and since these wounds have completely separate and distinctive measurements as well as being some 10 cm (4-inches) apart, it truly does not require an absolute genius to recognize that just perhaps we are not speaking of the same wound here.

Especially since the Cowlick entry through the skull can be clearly seen in the anterior posterior X-ray, and it has no grouping of radiating fractures through the skull eminating from it. Yet, in the lateral x-ray one can see a grouping of fractures which tend to run downwards towards the EOP area of the skull, with a darkened area being demonstrated.

Now, when one begins to throw in the facts related to the third/last/final shot, which occurred down in front of James Altgens, then some of this just may begin to make a little sense to those who are not wearing blinders.

A bullet strike to the head at Z313.

Another bullet strike to the head down in front of James Altgens.

2 bullet strikes to the head = 2 entrance wounds to the head!

Hate to inform you, it is that simple!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The "consensus" is that the autopsy surgeons have consistently indicated that the upper cowlick entry wound as demonstrated in the autopsy X-rays as well as back of the head photo's, IS NOT the entrance wound which they found and examined in the head of JFK.

While, the HSCA Medical Panel virtually insisits that the upper cowlick wound is the wound of entry.

There is no impact at the back of Kennedy's head at 313. Sherry G. is quite correct on that.

Pat! surely you are not basing your hypothesis on some third party's "amazing kresgin" method of problem resolution and crime scene analysis!

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Chris, Tom and I have been around this rosey a few times... and I don't have the energy to get into it just now... but there are some real problems with his scenario. He is right in that the head shot was the second shot heard by the bulk of the witnesses, and he is also correct in that there was an entrance low on Kennedy's head as reported at the autopsy. But much of the rest of it doesn't add up.You may want to check out my presentation at the link below. I spend a couple of hundred pages explaining why I believe that 1) the first bullet probably hit Kennedy and fell out, much as Tom describes, except at circa Z-190; 2) a second silenced shot or shots hit Kennedy and Connally at Z-224, with the Kennedy bullet entering near his EOP and being deflected down his neck; 3) a third shot interpreted by most as the second shot hit Kennedy near his right temple, from behind, and blasted off the top of his head; and 4) a missed shot or firecracker from the right of the motorcade startled the crowd, and led many of them to believe the shots came from the knoll.

My problems with Tom's scenario include

1) It seems obvious to me that Connally is hit before the head shot at 313. Every bit of eyewitness evidence and testimony indicates as much, as does the Zapruder film, which shows him wince and collapse at Z-224.

2) The largest jiggle on the Zapruder film prior to the headshot comes after Z-190. When asked by the Warren Commission attorneys where HE thought Kennedy was hit, Connally said Z-190. Phil Willis said he took his picture AFTER he heard the first shot. His picture was taken at Z-202. Several witnesses said Kennedy was waving when the first shot rang out. Kennedy stops waving just after Z-190. This indicates a hit circa Z-190.

3) There was no entrance in the cowlick observed at autopsy. Despite Tom's claims, there is no consensus as to the location of this entrance on the x-rays. Most of the radiologists merely mentioned the fractures on the back of the head, without isolating a bullet entrance. The autopsy photo of the back of the head reveals a small elliptical red spot, not a bullet entrance. I believe that some of the forensic pathologists claiming this to be an entrance are off-base. They have seen so many .22 caliber entrances that this entrance looks normal to them. The entrance of a .25 caliber military jacketed bullet, that explodes upon entry, would be substantially different and larger than the small shape on the back of the head photo. An entrance where a bullet is cut in half, with half the bullet continuing on without entering the skull, creates what is known as a keyhole entrance. In my presentation, I compare the lower margin of the Harper fragment by the temple and reveal it to be the upper margin of a keyhole entrance. There is no impact at the back of Kennedy's head at 313. Sherry G. is quite correct on that.

Hope this helps...

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsc...eport_0039a.htm

The reportedly Z190 is hardly anything new to come down the pike.

Fortunately, few have heard or read of it, and fewer yet accept it as having any validity.

One can order a copy of the "Blur/Jiggle" analysis which the HSCA did in their evaluation, and it is in a graph form.

Unfortunately, not unlike a previously slight-of-hand episode with the film, (The Warren Commission) Z208/209/210/ & 211 were not even provided to the HSCA for review and are thus completely omitted from their report and the graph.

Hey! If something worked well the first time, don't be afraid to utilize it again.

But much of the rest of it doesn't add up.

Failure to understand the evidence is not, of itself, indicative that the evidence is invalid.

In fact, one must fully understand the evidence before validity of anything can be established.

Phil Willis said he took his picture AFTER he heard the first shot. His picture was taken at Z-202.

Actually! The Willis photo is much closer to Z206/208 than to Z202.

The first and easiest indicator is the pill box outline of Jackie's hat after she had turned to look at JFK. From the rear in the Willis and the front in the Zapruder.

Secondly, there is a considerably more accurate means to determine exactly what frame the Willis photo actually is.

Kennedy stops waving just after Z-190. This indicates a hit circa Z-190.

In event JFK ceased to wave, then this would mean that he ceased to wave. Not that he ceased to wave because he was hit.

Despite Tom's claims, there is no consensus as to the location of this entrance on the x-rays

Must have missed that claim Pat!

Tom states:

1. The autopsy surgeons have, in their autopsy report as well as orally, multiple times indicated that the bullet entrance wound which they saw and examined in the back of the skull of JFK, entered slightly above and to the right of the EOP, and that it had multiple fractures radiating from the point of entry in various directions.

Other descriptions have placed the entrance at the edge of the hairline.

And, I might add, the autopsy surgeons took a tissue sample from this point of entry through the scalp.

2. http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsc..._Vol7_0057b.htm

The HSCA Panel not only placed the entrance hold that they saw in the top of the head at the cowlick area, it's dimensions through the skull also were given as being different from those dimensions which the autopsy surgeons gave for the EOP entry through the skull.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, since the Autopsy surgeons as well as others have completely identified the entry location for the wound to the back of the head that they found, and the HSCA has completely identified the entry location for the wound to the back of the head which they found, and since these wounds have completely separate and distinctive measurements as well as being some 10 cm (4-inches) apart, it truly does not require an absolute genius to recognize that just perhaps we are not speaking of the same wound here.

Especially since the Cowlick entry through the skull can be clearly seen in the anterior posterior X-ray, and it has no grouping of radiating fractures through the skull eminating from it. Yet, in the lateral x-ray one can see a grouping of fractures which tend to run downwards towards the EOP area of the skull, with a darkened area being demonstrated.

Now, when one begins to throw in the facts related to the third/last/final shot, which occurred down in front of James Altgens, then some of this just may begin to make a little sense to those who are not wearing blinders.

A bullet strike to the head at Z313.

Another bullet strike to the head down in front of James Altgens.

2 bullet strikes to the head = 2 entrance wounds to the head!

Hate to inform you, it is that simple!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The "consensus" is that the autopsy surgeons have consistently indicated that the upper cowlick entry wound as demonstrated in the autopsy X-rays as well as back of the head photo's, IS NOT the entrance wound which they found and examined in the head of JFK.

While, the HSCA Medical Panel virtually insisits that the upper cowlick wound is the wound of entry.

There is no impact at the back of Kennedy's head at 313. Sherry G. is quite correct on that.

Pat! surely you are not basing your hypothesis on some third party's "amazing kresgin" method of problem resolution and crime scene analysis!

Did not pass go the first time around.

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Charles,

I share your frustration. I have been frequenting JFK assassination message boards for a long time, and I've never seen a poster like Tom Purvis. He is so utterly secure in his beliefs; the problem is, none of us can understand exactly what he's saying. When pressed on this, he adopts a mysterious, know-it-all posture, and questions our knowledge. I've been researching this case for over 30 years, but this guy is one of a kind. An LNer who thinks the Warren Commission was a travesty and the Zapruder film is a fake! Of course, I think that's what he believes- he can correct me if I'm wrong. It's not easy wading through all the excess verbiage to find the point he's trying to make. I'd never advocate stopping him from expressing his beliefs; it's just that he does post a lot, and it's more difficult to sift through his lengthy messages than it is for other posters.

I would like to humbly suggest to Tom and some other posters that they reply to a thread without leaving the entire previous post (and others before it) in the body of their message. This makes it tedious to keep scrolling down throuh previous messages to find the new comment. You can quote the parts you want to respond to, but leaving the entire previous message (especially if it's long, like Tom Purvis's almost always are) is unnecessary. It's just a suggestion.

but this guy is one of a kind

Hell! Anyone can be ordinary.

none of us can understand exactly what he's saying.

In event that 3-shots and 3-hits is that difficult to understand, then it is fully understandable why many have believed in "THE SHOT THAT MISSED" as defined by the WC.

Which states:

It may have been the first shot, but it probably was not.

It may have been the second shot, which seems likely.

It may have been the third shot, but this is unlikely.

Tom

P.S. It is not being posted for those who have, for some 40+ years failed to recognize that there was no shot that missed, as it would most probably take another 40+ years to even attempt to go over the forensic evidence.

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Long ago when the location of JFK at the time of the third/last/final shot was first discussed and I informed where it occurred, needless to say many jumped in with everything from that they had never heard of such a shot, to that I had absolutely no proof of such a shot, etc;

Now, after considerable jaw-jacking on both sides, and having demonstrated by evidence in my possession, evidence within the WC documents, and numerous witness statements within the WC, it would appear that at least several here have come to the realization that Z312/313 WAS NOT the final shot in the shooting sequence.

Irrelevant of the issue of whether there was one, two, three, or five persons shooting in Dealy Plaza.

Now!

Is there anyone, who considers themselves a serious researcher of the facts, that has not come to the full realization that Z312/313 WAS NOT the last shoot in the assassination shooting sequence???

1. Based on the now somewhat recognized aspects that Z312/313 was in fact the second shot in the shooting sequence.

Mr. HUDSON - Well there was a young fellow, oh, I would judge his age about in his late twenties. He said he had been looking for a place to park and he walked up there and he said he finally just taken a place over there in one of them parking lots, and he come on down there and said he worked over there on Industrial and me and him both just sat there first on those steps. When the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm, we got up and stood up, me and him both. He was on the left side and I was on the right and so the first shot rung out and, of course, I didn't realize it was a shot, what was taking place right at that present time, and when the second one rung out, the motorcade had done got further on down Elm, and you see, I was trying to get a good look at President Kennedy. I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet hit him - the second shot.

Mr. LIEBELER - That was when the bullet hit him in the head; is that correct?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; it looked like it ht him somewhere along about a little bit behind the ear and a little bit above the ear.

Mr. LIEBELER - On the right-hand side or the left-hand side?

Mr. HUDSON - Right hand.

Mr. LIEBELER - You say that it was the second shot that hit him in the head; is that right?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; I do believe that - I know it was.

Mr. LIEBELER - You saw him hit in the head, there wasn't any question in your mind about that, was there?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - And after you saw him hit in the head, did you hear another shot?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you see that shot hit anything - the third shot?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; so right along about even with these steps, pretty close to even with this here, the last shot was fired - somewhere right along in there.

......Now that we have established some of the essential parameters, we do not have to deal with "trick questions" based on completely incorrect data.

If one is to use Emmett Hudson's recollections to "establish" such an essential parameter, perhaps it would be illuminating to examine some more of his testimony. Three days after the assassination, Hudson told the FBI:

He (Hudson) said he was looking directly at President Kennedy and saw his head slump to one side simultaneously with the loud report made by the first shot fired by the assassin.
He said he then heard two more reports that sounded like shots, such reports coming in rapid succession after the first shot. He volunteered the shots were fired "just about as fast as you could expect a man to operate a bolt action rifle," or words to that effect..... Hudson stated when he heard the shots he turned around and looked in the general vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository building.....(CD5)

Eight months later, when Wesley Liebler deposed Hudson, his story had changed. One can almost sense Liebler's frustration as he attempts to lead Hudson into making some sort of sense.

Mr. Liebeler:
Did it look to you like the President was hit by the first shot?

Mr. Hudson:
No, sir; I don't think so--I sure don't.

Mr. Liebeler: You don't think he got hit by the first shot?

Mr. Hudson: No.

Mr. Liebeler: You say it was the second shot that hit him in the head?

Mr. Hudson: Yes.

Mr. Liebeler: What happened after the President got hit in the head, did you see what he did, what happened in the car?

Mr. Hudson: He slumped over and Mrs. Kennedy, she climbs over in the seat with him and pulls him over.

Mr. Liebeler: Pulled him down in the seat?

Mr. Hudson. Pulled him over in her lap like.

Mr. Liebeler: If you don't think the President got hit by the first shot and you say he got hit in the head with the second shot----

Mr. Hudson: Yes.

Mr. Liebeler: And if we assume that he was hit twice, you would have to say that he was hit by the third shot; isn't that right?

Mr. Hudson: Yes.

Mr. Liebeler: He was hit again after he got hit in the head?

Mr. Hudson: Yes, sir.

Mr. Liebeler:
Do you think that could have been possible when Mrs. Kennedy pulled him over, do you think he could have got hit in the neck after he had been hit in the head?

Mr. Hudson:
Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. Liebeler: He was still sitting far enough up in the car he could have been hit?

Mr. Hudson: Yes, sir.

This next exchange was the final straw. Liebler quickly excused Hudson after his claim that the shot sequence could have lasted two minutes.

Mr. Liebeler: Did you see Governor Connally---did you think Governor Connally had been hit?

Mr. Hudson: Well, sir; I never noticed Governor Connally in the car. The first shot must have struck him and he had done fell over in the car when that happened.

Mr. Liebeler: So that you didn't even see Governor Connally in the car at all?

Mr. Hudson: No, sir.

Mr. Liebeler: You didn't see him get hit by any of the shots?

Mr. Hudson: No, sir.

Mr. Liebeler: You are assuming that maybe he got hit by the first shot and fell down in the car.

Mr. Hudson: That's right.

Mr. Liebeler: And you saw the President get hit by what you heard as the second shot?

Mr. Hudson: Yes.

Mr. Liebeler: How far apart were the shots spaced; do you have any recollection about that, how long did it take for all the shots to be fired and how far apart was one shot from the other?

Mr. Hudson: Well, they was pretty fast and not too fast either. It seemed like he had time enough to operate his gun plenty well---when the shots were all fired.

Mr. Liebeler:
How much time do you think passed from the time the first shot was fired until the second shot was fired, can you make any estimate about that?

Mr. Hudson:
Oh, probably 2 minutes
.

Mr. Liebeler: As much as 2 minutes?

Mr. Hudson: It might not have been that long

Emmett Hudson's testimony would have been rendered useless in any court of law. What he told the FBI three days after the assassination differed substantially with his WC testimony eight months later. His testimony was riddled with conflicts and impossibilities.

For any researcher to selectively quote a small portion of Hudson's testimony and claim that it helps "establish an essential parameter" of the shot sequence.....

Let the reader complete the above sentence.

Edited by Michael Hogan
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Long ago when the location of JFK at the time of the third/last/final shot was first discussed and I informed where it occurred, needless to say many jumped in with everything from that they had never heard of such a shot, to that I had absolutely no proof of such a shot, etc;

Now, after considerable jaw-jacking on both sides, and having demonstrated by evidence in my possession, evidence within the WC documents, and numerous witness statements within the WC, it would appear that at least several here have come to the realization that Z312/313 WAS NOT the final shot in the shooting sequence.

Irrelevant of the issue of whether there was one, two, three, or five persons shooting in Dealy Plaza.

Now!

Is there anyone, who considers themselves a serious researcher of the facts, that has not come to the full realization that Z312/313 WAS NOT the last shoot in the assassination shooting sequence???

1. Based on the now somewhat recognized aspects that Z312/313 was in fact the second shot in the shooting sequence.

Mr. HUDSON - Well there was a young fellow, oh, I would judge his age about in his late twenties. He said he had been looking for a place to park and he walked up there and he said he finally just taken a place over there in one of them parking lots, and he come on down there and said he worked over there on Industrial and me and him both just sat there first on those steps. When the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm, we got up and stood up, me and him both. He was on the left side and I was on the right and so the first shot rung out and, of course, I didn't realize it was a shot, what was taking place right at that present time, and when the second one rung out, the motorcade had done got further on down Elm, and you see, I was trying to get a good look at President Kennedy. I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet hit him - the second shot.

Mr. LIEBELER - That was when the bullet hit him in the head; is that correct?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; it looked like it ht him somewhere along about a little bit behind the ear and a little bit above the ear.

Mr. LIEBELER - On the right-hand side or the left-hand side?

Mr. HUDSON - Right hand.

Mr. LIEBELER - You say that it was the second shot that hit him in the head; is that right?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; I do believe that - I know it was.

Mr. LIEBELER - You saw him hit in the head, there wasn't any question in your mind about that, was there?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - And after you saw him hit in the head, did you hear another shot?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you see that shot hit anything - the third shot?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; so right along about even with these steps, pretty close to even with this here, the last shot was fired - somewhere right along in there.

......Now that we have established some of the essential parameters, we do not have to deal with "trick questions" based on completely incorrect data.

If one is to use Emmett Hudson's recollections to "establish" such an essential parameter, perhaps it would be illuminating to examine some more of his testimony. Three days after the assassination, Hudson told the FBI:

He (Hudson) said he was looking directly at President Kennedy and saw his head slump to one side simultaneously with the loud report made by the first shot fired by the assassin.
He said he then heard two more reports that sounded like shots, such reports coming in rapid succession after the first shot. He volunteered the shots were fired "just about as fast as you could expect a man to operate a bolt action rifle," or words to that effect..... Hudson stated when he heard the shots he turned around and looked in the general vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository building.....(CD5)

Eight months later, when Wesley Liebler deposed Hudson, his story had changed. One can almost sense Liebler's frustration as he attempts to lead Hudson into making some sort of sense.

Mr. Liebeler:
Did it look to you like the President was hit by the first shot?

Mr. Hudson:
No, sir; I don't think so--I sure don't.

Mr. Liebeler: You don't think he got hit by the first shot?

Mr. Hudson: No.

Mr. Liebeler: You say it was the second shot that hit him in the head?

Mr. Hudson: Yes.

Mr. Liebeler: What happened after the President got hit in the head, did you see what he did, what happened in the car?

Mr. Hudson: He slumped over and Mrs. Kennedy, she climbs over in the seat with him and pulls him over.

Mr. Liebeler: Pulled him down in the seat?

Mr. Hudson. Pulled him over in her lap like.

Mr. Liebeler: If you don't think the President got hit by the first shot and you say he got hit in the head with the second shot----

Mr. Hudson: Yes.

Mr. Liebeler: And if we assume that he was hit twice, you would have to say that he was hit by the third shot; isn't that right?

Mr. Hudson: Yes.

Mr. Liebeler: He was hit again after he got hit in the head?

Mr. Hudson: Yes, sir.

Mr. Liebeler:
Do you think that could have been possible when Mrs. Kennedy pulled him over, do you think he could have got hit in the neck after he had been hit in the head?

Mr. Hudson:
Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. Liebeler: He was still sitting far enough up in the car he could have been hit?

Mr. Hudson: Yes, sir.

This next exchange was the final straw. Liebler quickly excused Hudson after his claim that the shot sequence could have lasted two minutes.

Mr. Liebeler: Did you see Governor Connally---did you think Governor Connally had been hit?

Mr. Hudson: Well, sir; I never noticed Governor Connally in the car. The first shot must have struck him and he had done fell over in the car when that happened.

Mr. Liebeler: So that you didn't even see Governor Connally in the car at all?

Mr. Hudson: No, sir.

Mr. Liebeler: You didn't see him get hit by any of the shots?

Mr. Hudson: No, sir.

Mr. Liebeler: You are assuming that maybe he got hit by the first shot and fell down in the car.

Mr. Hudson: That's right.

Mr. Liebeler: And you saw the President get hit by what you heard as the second shot?

Mr. Hudson: Yes.

Mr. Liebeler: How far apart were the shots spaced; do you have any recollection about that, how long did it take for all the shots to be fired and how far apart was one shot from the other?

Mr. Hudson: Well, they was pretty fast and not too fast either. It seemed like he had time enough to operate his gun plenty well---when the shots were all fired.

Mr. Liebeler:
How much time do you think passed from the time the first shot was fired until the second shot was fired, can you make any estimate about that?

Mr. Hudson:
Oh, probably 2 minutes
.

Mr. Liebeler: As much as 2 minutes?

Mr. Hudson: It might not have been that long

Emmett Hudson's testimony would have been rendered useless in any court of law. What he told the FBI three days after the assassination differed substantially with his WC testimony eight months later. His testimony was riddled with conflicts and impossibilities.

For any researcher to selectively quote a small portion of Hudson's testimony and claim that it helps "establish an essential parameter" of the shot sequence.....

Let the reader complete the above sentence.

He (Hudson) said he was looking directly at President Kennedy and saw his head slump to one side simultaneously with the loud report made by the first shot fired by the assassin

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z235.jpg

slump; to sink down suddenly/collapse/slouch/to decline sharply

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Mr. ALTGENS - This would put me at approximately this area here, which would be about 15 feet from me at the time he was shot in the head--about 15 feet from the car on the west side of the car--on the side that Mrs. Kennedy was riding in the car.

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http://www.jfk.org/Oral_Histories/Oral_His...st.asp?Letter=s

Malcolm Summers

Well, then the car kept coming, and then the second shot rang out. And then the third was just about where I was at, rang out

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http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z346.jpg

That is Malcom Summers diving to the ground to the right of James Altgens.

Since you appear to have difficulty in correlation of the photographic evidence with that of the eye witness, and can not seem to find those other statements which have always indicated the proximity of the third/last/final shot.

Actually, one does not even need the survey data in my possession to recognize the proximity of this shot. They merely have to do a little reading and research.

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Mr. HUDSON :

When the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm, we got up and stood up, me and him both. He was on the left side and I was on the right and so the first shot rung out and, of course, I didn't realize it was a shot, what was taking place right at that present time, and when the second one rung out, the motorcade had done got further on down Elm, and you see, I was trying to get a good look at President Kennedy. I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet hit him - the second shot.

Mr. LIEBELER - That was when the bullet hit him in the head; is that correct?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; it looked like it ht him somewhere along about a little bit behind the ear and a little bit above the ear.

Mr. LIEBELER - On the right-hand side or the left-hand side?

Mr. HUDSON - Right hand.

Mr. HUDSON - Right along there is about where President Kennedy's car was when he was hit - at the time I was looking right at him when the shot struck him, when the bullet struck him.

Mr. LIEBELER - How many shots did you here altogether?

Mr. HUDSON - Three.

Mr. LIEBELER - Three shots?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - Are you sure about that?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - You say that it was the second shot that hit him in the head; is that right?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; I do believe that - I know it was.

Mr. LIEBELER - You saw him hit in the head, there wasn't any question in your mind about that, was there?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - And after you saw him hit in the head, did you here another shot?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you see that shot hit anything - the third shot?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; so right along about even with these steps, pretty close to even with this here, the last shot was fired - somewhere right along in there.

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Mr. ALTGENS - Yes. What made me almost certain that the shot came from behind was because at the time I was looking at the President, just as he was struck, it caused him to move a bit forward. He seemed as if at the time----well, he was in a position-- sort of immobile. He wasn't upright. He was at an angle but when it hit him, it seemed to have just lodged--it seemed as if he were hung up on a seat button or something like that. It knocked him just enough forward that he came right on down. There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing, so much so that it indicated to me that the shot came out of the left side of his head. Also, the fact that his head was covered with blood, the hairline included, on the left side all the way down, with no blood on his forehead or face--- suggested to me, too, that the shot came from the opposite side, meaning in the direction of this Depository Building, but at no time did I know for certain where the shot came from.

Mr. ALTGENS - Because I didn't see who fired it. After the Presidential car moved a little past me, I took another picture--now, just let me back up here--I was prepared to make a picture at the very instant the President was shot. I had refocused to 15 feet because I wanted a good closeup of the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and that's why I know that it would be right at 15 feet, because I had prefocused in that area, and I had my camera almost to my eye when it happened and that's as far as I got with my camera.

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z343.jpg

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http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/conn_n.htm

Mrs. CONNALLY. No, he turned away from me. I was pretending that I was him. I never again looked in the back seat of the car after my husband was shot. My concern was for him, and I remember that he turned to the right and then just slumped down into the seat, so that I reached over to pull him toward me. X was trying to get him down and me down. The jump seats were not very roomy, so that there were reports that he slid into the seat of the car, which he did not; that he fell over into my lap, which he did not.

I just pulled him over into my arms because it would have been impossible to get us really both down with me sitting and me holding him. So that I looked out, I mean as he was in my arms, I put my head down over his head so that his head and my head were right together, and all I could see, too, were the people flashing by. I didn't look back any more. The third shot that I heard I felt, it felt like spent buckshot falling all over us, and then, of course, I too could see that it was the matter, brain tissue, or whatever, just human matter, all over the car and both of us.

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z321.jpg

Certainly wish that JBC would go ahead and lay over in Nellie's lap in order that we can get this last shot over with.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/hscacon.htm

Mr. CONNALLY: I was in her lap facing forward when another shot was fired. I only heard two shots. I did not hear the shot that hit me. I wasn't conscious of it. I am sure I heard it, but I was not conscious of it at all. I heard another shot. I heard it hit. It hit with a very pronounced impact, just [slap of hands] almost like that. Almost that loud a sound; it made a very, very strong sound.

Immediately, I could see blood and brain tissue all over the interior of the car and all over our clothes. We were both covered with brain tissue, and there were pieces of brain tissue as big as your little finger.

Mrs. CONNALLY. No; I heard three shots, I had three reactions, three separate reactions. The first shot, then I looked and saw the President, the second shot, John, and third, all this matter all over us

Mr. DEVINE. And then after you knew that he was hit, and you

pulled him over in your lap, you then heard the third shot?

Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes.

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Michael! Why not suprise us and demonstrate a little actual research into the matter.

Most grade schoolers that I am aware of could figure this one out.

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From Nellie Connally's book and her handwritten notes which were written 10 days after the assassination.

"I reached there and pulled him to me & tried to get us both down in the car. Then came a third shot. With John in my arms & still trying to stay down I did not see the third shot hit. But I felt something falling all over me."

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Mr. HUDSON - Yes; so right along about even with these steps, pretty close to even with this here, the last shot was fired - somewhere right along in there.

Malcolm Summers:

Well, then the car kept coming, and then the second shot rang out. And then the third was just about where I was at, rang out

Mr. ALTGENS: There was not another shot fired after the President was struck in the head. That was the last shot--that much I will say with a great degree of certainty.

Mr. LIEBELER - What makes you so certain of that, Mr. Altgens?

Mr. ALTGENS - Because, having heard these shots and then having seen the damage that was done on this shot to the President's head,

Mr. ALTGENS - Well, off and on we have been referring to the third shot and the fourth shot; but actually, it was the last shot, the shot did strike the President and there was no other sound like a shot that was made after that.

Mr. ALTGENS : There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing

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Just perhaps one should start off with "Mary Poppins" or some such reading level in event that they have problems comprehending and correlating the above.

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