Shooter, Radioman, Spotter

[Bill Miller]

I'd say English wasn't his first language, as per the Ed Hoffman account. He tossed the weapon to his breakdown man, who may not be pictured here - then returned to this position - only to be confronted possibly by Joe Marshall Smith. Since he didn't know English too well, he shrugged and demonstrated that he did not have a weapon. Sheer bravado. Maybe Corsican, as per Steve Rivele's research.

- lee

Lee, Ed Hoffman's man who the weapon was tossed to was said to have been waiting at the steam pipe. And it was not the Hat Man who was met by Officer Joe Smith, but instead the other man who Bowers said was standing about 10 to 15 feet away from the suited man at the time of the shooting (Moorman's photo).

Keeping in mind that Bowers said these were the only two men at that location, I suspect you have thought the overhanging tree foliage looks like peoples heads in the poorer Moorman prints. Go to Thompson's book "six seconds in dallas" or Groden's book "the killing of a president" and I think the sharper versions of that location can be found there and they will allow you to make a more accurate detrmination as to what you are seeing.

Bill

Edited May 21, 2006 by Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

Doorman's film shows there to only be about 2.5 to 3 feet of space between the wall and the shrubs. Zapruder's elevated view allows us to see some of that space as the gree grass and the base of the wall is visible.

Shaking a film and motion blur makes still objects appear to move.

By stabilizing the image, much of the movement is reduced.

I didn't bother to adjust for the change in tilt in the Zapruder camera between these frames, nor could I remove the blur between the frames, but slowing it down allows one to see how the illusion is created. Also note the pyracantha bush above the Willis girl's head and see the branching fade in and out. This also occurred with the shrubs which gives the false impression of movement.

MPI raw version

MPI stabilized version reduces the illusion of movement from camera shaking, but not from blurring.

I hope this information has been found useful.

Bill

Edited May 21, 2006 by Bill Miller

[Blair Dobson]

This is quickly becoming one of my favorite threads on the subject.

No fighting, lots of "working together".

Great work guys.

Lee, sorry I have not had time as per your request, but Bill has come through so all is well.

I wanted to add, fwiw, i always thought the best way to hide the shooter/shooters would be in the trunk of a car and as far as i remember from everything i read, none of the DPD in that area searched the cars closest to the fence. ICBW ( I could be wrong)

sadly, a similar technique would be used many years later.

Edited May 22, 2006 by Blair Dobson

[Lee Forman]

Lee, Ed Hoffman's man who the weapon was tossed to was said to have been waiting at the steam pipe. And it was not the Hat Man who was met by Officer Joe Smith, but instead the other man who Bowers said was standing about 10 to 15 feet away from the suited man at the time of the shooting (Moorman's photo).

Keeping in mind that Bowers said these were the only two men at that location, I suspect you have thought the overhanging tree foliage looks like peoples heads in the poorer Moorman prints. Go to Thompson's book "six seconds in dallas" or Groden's book "the killing of a president" and I think the sharper versions of that location can be found there and they will allow you to make a more accurate detrmination as to what you are seeing.

Bill

Thanks Bill.

I would say that is a matter of timing and interpretation.

Let's wade through it. The men seen by Bowers were at a location closer to the steampipe - agreed. Bowers noted having seen them at the time the Lincoln turned on to Houston from Main the way I read it.

Mr. BOWERS - Directly in line, towards the mouth of the underpass, there were two men. One man, middle-aged, or slightly older, fairly heavy-set, in a white shirt, fairly dark trousers. Another younger man, about midtwenties, in either a plaid shirt or plaid coat or jacket.

Mr. BALL - Were they standing together or standing separately?

Mr. BOWERS - They were standing within 10 or 15 feet of each other, and gave no appearance of being together, as far as I knew.

Mr. BALL - In what direction were they facing?

Mr. BOWERS - They were facing and looking up towards Main and Houston, and following the caravan as it came down.

So in terms of timing - that doesn't mean that these folks could not have moved from this location. Additionally, as per the cigarette butts, footprints in the mud and on the bumper, someone was standing in the precise location where we see the images in the enlarged Moorman crop - at the tree, or the 'GKS' location. Further, after viewing the parking lot from the Bowers Tower, I think it's likely that he would not have had a full view of the entire parking area - especially given the number of cars that were located back there on 11/22. Bowers himself isn't clear on where the darker dressed man went - he was 'too hard to distinguish from the trees.'

Mr. BALL - Was his motorcycle directed toward any particular people?

Mr. BOWERS - He came up into this area where there are some trees, and where I had described the two men were in the general vicinity of this.

Mr. BALL - Were the two men there at the time?

Mr. BOWERS - I--as far as I know, one of them was. The other I could not say.

The darker dressed man was too hard to distinguish from the trees. The white shirt, yes; I think he was.

So, is it safe to assume that there were only 2 men behind the fence on the basis of Bower's testimony? I don't think it is - that is my opinion. Is it possible that Ed Hoffman only saw 2 when in fact there were more than 2 in this location?

Additionally, as demonstrated here on the forum previously - Groden's KOAP Moorman is inferior when compared to 4 Dark Days, or to the drumscan. The image provided by Craig is a png file - if I recall, he said it was a scan taken directly from the Polaroid itself - which makes it a first generation - as compared with a book or magazine scan.

The teams consisted of 3 individuals: Shooter, Spotter, Radioman / Breakdownman. This is consistent. It's my impression that your 'hatman' is the area of the shooter's rifle.

The attached is a crop. No enhancement of any kind has been made.

Perhaps we could solve this dilemma with another high quality scan of the Moorman polaroid.

- lee

[Lee Forman]

Doorman's film shows there to only be about 2.5 to 3 feet of space between the wall and the shrubs. Zapruder's elevated view allows us to see some of that space as the gree grass and the base of the wall is visible.

Shaking a film and motion blur makes still objects appear to move.

By stabilizing the image, much of the movement is reduced.

I didn't bother to adjust for the change in tilt in the Zapruder camera between these frames, nor could I remove the blur between the frames, but slowing it down allows one to see how the illusion is created. Also note the pyracantha bush above the Willis girl's head and see the branching fade in and out. This also occurred with the shrubs which gives the false impression of movement.

MPI raw version

MPI stabilized version reduces the illusion of movement from camera shaking, but not from blurring.

I hope this information has been found useful.

Bill

Only one comment to make here - the comparison you are making is with my own crude efforts at stabilization of the frames. I used something like 10 frames. I can't recall, since it was some time ago.

- lee

[Bill Miller]

Thanks Bill.

I would say that is a matter of timing and interpretation.

Let's wade through it. The men seen by Bowers were at a location closer to the steampipe - agreed.

No. Moorman's photo captures one of them who looks like he is near the Hudson tree, but that is an illusion. If looking at the fence from the south and perpendicular ... the Hat Man was about 10 feet or so west of the Hudson tree. The shot was heard from that location, Hoffman saw the man at that location, the smoke came through the trees at that location. The second man was said to be about 10 feet from the other man. BTW, Bowers wasn't clear as to which mouth of the underpass was he talking about ... there are three. Being in line with the tower and the Commerece Street opening would be close to where the Hat Man and anyone west of him was seen. I just wanted to ad that thought for your consideration.

The overhanging tree foliage from Bowers elevated view probably hid the Badge Man and anyone standing near him. My understand from talking with Ed Hoffman was that he didn't have a view of the side of the fence that ran parallel with the walkway because of the cars and overhanging tree branches blocking it from his view.

So in terms of timing - that doesn't mean that these folks could not have moved from this location. Additionally, as per the cigarette butts, footprints in the mud and on the bumper, someone was standing in the precise location where we see the images in the enlarged Moorman crop - at the tree, or the 'GKS' location. Further, after viewing the parking lot from the Bowers Tower, I think it's likely that he would not have had a full view of the entire parking area - especially given the number of cars that were located back there on 11/22. Bowers himself isn't clear on where the darker dressed man went - he was 'too hard to distinguish from the trees.'

I would not kid myself for an elevation of 14 feet in the air allows one to see that area with ease - cars or no cars. As I said before ... I don't think Bowers took his attention away from that location despite what he said to the Commission. He obviously saw it well enough to mention the flash of light or smoke at fence level.

Mr. BALL - Was his motorcycle directed toward any particular people?

Mr. BOWERS - He came up into this area where there are some trees, and where I had described the two men were in the general vicinity of this.

Mr. BALL - Were the two men there at the time?

Mr. BOWERS - I--as far as I know, one of them was. The other I could not say.

The darker dressed man was too hard to distinguish from the trees. The white shirt, yes; I think he was.

Can anyone tell me what motorcycle drove up the knoll? Also, by the time any police made it to the knoll - Hoffman had seen the man walk back up towards the corner of the fence where he would have disappeared under the overhanging foliage from where Bowers was sitting in the tower.

So, is it safe to assume that there were only 2 men behind the fence on the basis of Bower's testimony? I don't think it is - that is my opinion. Is it possible that Ed Hoffman only saw 2 when in fact there were more than 2 in this location?

All I am saying is that two men vieweing the same area (one elvated in the air and one from the side) saw only two men along the Elm Street stretch of fence.

Additionally, as demonstrated here on the forum previously - Groden's KOAP Moorman is inferior when compared to 4 Dark Days, or to the drumscan. The image provided by Craig is a png file - if I recall, he said it was a scan taken directly from the Polaroid itself - which makes it a first generation - as compared with a book or magazine scan.

The full photos yes, but not the Hat Man crops from Groden's copy negative print. Compare the detail of the crop below to the Hat Man in the drum scan and you should see a big difference.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

[.

Can anyone tell me what motorcycle drove up the knoll?

Bill, this would be M/C officer Clyde Haygood, who tried to jump the kerb. Although several witnesses claim he rode his bike up the Knoll, many more say he parked it on the street, and continued up on foot.

[Bill Miller]

Bill, this would be M/C officer Clyde Haygood, who tried to jump the kerb. Although several witnesses claim he rode his bike up the Knoll, many more say he parked it on the street, and continued up on foot.

Thanks, I have never understood why someone would say he (or anyone) rode his cycle up the knoll.

Bill

[Craig Lamson]

Just a note on the Moorman drum scan.

It was not a scan direct from the Moorman print but rather a drum scan of a copy negative made of the Moorman original polaroid print. As such its only one generation removed from the Moorman original. Unlike most other scans of the the Moorman that are made from a print of a copy negative (one or many generations removed from the original polaroid) the drum scan was made directly from the negative to remove that additional generation.

It is discussed here:

http://home.earthlink.net/~joejd/jfk/mgap/drum_scan_gap.html

After the scan was completed Tink sent one of the original cd's from the scanner to to Gary Mack and the second to me. I made a number of duplicate cd's and mailed them to the others in our group that were working on this project. I also offered to send copies of this disk at no cost to any menber of the research community that was interested. I did in fact send out quite a few of these disks.

Since the full file is quite large (over 100mb in tif format) I have, from time to time posted crops as requested to the web. I posted those crops in .png format because it is a lossless compression ( does not degrade the image) and because the png format is usable on most web browsers.

[Lee Forman]

Bill, this would be M/C officer Clyde Haygood, who tried to jump the kerb. Although several witnesses claim he rode his bike up the Knoll, many more say he parked it on the street, and continued up on foot.

Thanks, I have never understood why someone would say he (or anyone) rode his cycle up the knoll.

Bill

Bill,

Simply because it wasn't captured on footage is insufficient cause to deny the possibility of the event having transpired - that would be my personal take on that incident, as well as many others. Sam Pate said it happened, and confirmed it for me via email, as per the thread on KBOX.

The motorcycles around the Presidents car went over the curb and they fell to the ground and they tried to go up the grassy knoll from what the officers said the grass was still wet from the allnight rain earlier and they didn't have good footings.

The officers whom tried to go up the grassy knoll was Bobby Hargis. He fell down twice because the area at the knoll was still wet from the allnight light rain. I had to get up at 4:30 am to get to the pressroom at City Hall to see what might of happened overnight. ...On the item about the motorcycle policemen going up the knoll, Bobby Hargis tried to run up the hill and he slipped and fell twiche and the third try, he used all fours legs and hands and was able to get to the top. There were several bullets and hulls around the Plaza. Several more than just three.

to have witnessed the bikes crashing the curb and trying to ride up the knoll - how did you hear about that?

From Bobby Hargis....

From this I am unable to gather if Hargis also crashed the curb. It still sounds as if it was Haygood that was the one trying to ride his bike up the slope - even though this is unclear from his testimony to the Warren Commission.

Mr. HAYGOOD. When I first got to the location there, I was still on Houston Street, and in the process of making a left turn onto Elm Street I could see all these people laying on the ground there on Elm. Some of them were pointing back up to the railroad yard, and a couple of people were headed back up that way, and I immediately tried to jump the north curb there in the 400 block, which was too high for me to get over.

Mr. BELIN. You mean with your motorcycle?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. HAYGOOD. And I left my motor on the street and ran to the railroad yard.

Mr. BELIN. Now when you ran to the railroad yard, would that be north or south of Elm?

Mr. HAYGOOD. The railroad yard would be located at the---it consists of going over Elm Street and back north of Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Well, there was nothing. There was quite a few people in the area, spectators, and at that time I went back to my motorcycle it was on the street--to the radio.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any people running away from there?

Mr. HAYGOOD. No. They was all going to it.

Mr. BOWERS - At the time of the shooting there seemed to be some commotion, and immediately following there was a motorcycle policeman who shot nearly all of the way to the top of the incline.

Mr. BALL - On his motorcycle?

Mr. BOWERS - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Did he come by way of Elm Street?

Mr. BOWERS - He was part of the motorcade and had left it for some reason, which I did not know.

Mr. BALL - He came up---

Mr. BOWERS - He came almost to the top and I believe abandoned his motorcycle for a moment and then got on it and proceeded, I don't know

Mr. BALL - How did he get up?

Mr. BOWERS - He just shot up over the curb and up.

Mr. BALL - He didn't come then by way of Ell, which dead ends there?

Mr. BOWERS - No; he left the motorcade and came up the incline on the motorcycle.

Mr. BALL - Was his motorcycle directed toward any particular people?

Mr. BOWERS - He came up into this area where there are some trees, and where I had described the two men were in the general vicinity of this.

If Lee Bowers is 'mistaken' about events he is describing as having witnessed, how can you use him as a reference to support your theory about how many men were behind the fence? That is illogical.

What is logical is that the 2 men seen by Bowers were not the only men behind the fence.

Back to Hoffman - here is an overlay of the parking area, and the map created based upon his account, which can be found on McAdams website. Although I have sent Mr. Hoffman several images for his review, I never heard back from him. Perhaps I will make another attempt.

In the meanwhile, it appears more consistent with the account I have provided here - which is that someone in the vantage point of 'C' would have been in a position to have witnessed the smoke, and to have possibly seen a gun being tossed in the air, through the vegetation at the top of the fence.

Also worth noting - the description of the men seen by Bowers doesn't match the description of the men seen by Hoffman, unless the man in the 'white' shirt donned a jacket shortly before the shooting.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/hoffman.htm

The man in the business suit . . . walked over to the "railroad man" standing by the switch box, spoke very briefly with him, and then returned to his position behind the fence.

The "railroad man" bent down and seemed [to] work with something on the ground near the switch box. The "suit man" at the fence bent down, then stood up, and looked over the fence.

Ed saw a puff of smoke by the "suit man" and assumed it was from a cigarette.

[The] man in the blue suit turned, holding a rifle, and ran the short distance to the man at the switch box. . . .

The three men © on the triple overpass began what appeared to Ed as an animated discussion, looking and pointing toward the fence. Ed assumes that they could see the front of the fence, the side facing toward Dealey Plaza, and that they saw the same puff of smoke he did.

The "suit man" tossed the rifle over to the "railroad man." (There was a thin, horizontal pipe, about four feet off the ground, and a shallow ditch beneath the pipe, and couple [of] yards from the railroad tracks, which separated the "suit man" from the "railroad man.")

The "railroad man" received the rifle, dismantled it, stashed it in the "tool box," and started running north along the tracks. (Military people tell us that this kind of rifle can be dismantled in less time [than] it takes to describe it — click and twist.) Ed emphasizes that both men acted very quickly.

Meanwhile, the men on the triple overpass still stood there, pointing toward the area of the smoke by the fence, and gesticulating rather visibly.

The man in the blue suit assumed a casual composure, and sauntered back toward the north end of the fence.

A police officer (d) ran from the south end of the triple overpass to the middle of the bridge where the three railroad men are standing, shouting, and pointing. It appeared to Ed that the police officer joined the three in their animated conversation.

. . .

A police officer . . . came around the north end of the fence. He saw and confronted the "suit man." The policeman held his service revolver in both both hands, arms extended forward, legs spread and slightly squat.

The "suit man" first held both arms out to his side, as if to gesture, "It wasn't me. See, I have nothing." Then the "suit man" reached inside his suit coat and pulled out something (presumably identification) and showed it to the police officer. The officer relaxed, and both men mingled with the crowd coming around the fence.

We assume this police officer was Joe Marshall Smith, who testified before the Warren Commission about this encounter. (pp. 7-9)

This interpretation makes sense to me. Hoffman is referring to 2 different Police officers here - one that made an approach from Elm, up the grassy incline [Haygood], and stopped to converse with the railroad workers, and another that came from the north - which is in line with the testimony of Joe Marshall Smith.

And on vantage points, it's a shame that there is so much undergrowth now blocking any potential view from the Hoffman location. A comparison of Bowers perspective when compared to Hoffman's may have provided an interesting result.

- oops - miffed the attachment.

Edited May 23, 2006 by Lee Forman

[Bill Miller]

Bill,

Simply because it wasn't captured on footage is insufficient cause to deny the possibility of the event having transpired - that would be my personal take on that incident, as well as many others. Sam Pate said it happened, and confirmed it for me via email, as per the thread on KBOX.

The photographical record shows the cycles in the street and none of them in the grass on the knoll. In fact, one of the cycles can be seen parked near the curb in the street.

Bill

[Mark Stapleton]

Just a note on the Moorman drum scan.

It was not a scan direct from the Moorman print but rather a drum scan of a copy negative made of the Moorman original polaroid print. As such its only one generation removed from the Moorman original. Unlike most other scans of the the Moorman that are made from a print of a copy negative (one or many generations removed from the original polaroid) the drum scan was made directly from the negative to remove that additional generation.

It is discussed here:

http://home.earthlink.net/~joejd/jfk/mgap/drum_scan_gap.html

After the scan was completed Tink sent one of the original cd's from the scanner to to Gary Mack and the second to me. I made a number of duplicate cd's and mailed them to the others in our group that were working on this project. I also offered to send copies of this disk at no cost to any menber of the research community that was interested. I did in fact send out quite a few of these disks.

Since the full file is quite large (over 100mb in tif format) I have, from time to time posted crops as requested to the web. I posted those crops in .png format because it is a lossless compression ( does not degrade the image) and because the png format is usable on most web browsers.

Craig,

Thanks for that. This is a technical point I was unaware of.

[Lee Forman]

The full photos yes, but not the Hat Man crops from Groden's copy negative print. Compare the detail of the crop below to the Hat Man in the drum scan and you should see a big difference.

Agreed. A big difference. One might even use the word 'enormous.'

Craig - thanks very much for the opportunity to get ahold of that file, and for your explanation as to it's origin. Do you get the same result, out of curiousity, when viewing the area of interest?

Does anyone know how it might be possible to get a high res scan of the Moorman polaroid today?

- lee

[Lee Forman]

Waste of time perhaps - this is a comparison using a high res scan from 4 Dark Days [crop on the top]. I think that it is a compelling comparison, even if it isn't conclusive.

Anyone have any ideas on how to acquire a high res scan of the original Moorman polaroid?

- lee

[Bill Miller]

The area marked blurred is the fedora of the man Hoffman saw. Ed confirmed this for me. The wind was moving from the northwest, thus the light area marked smoke is on the wrong side of Hat Man for that alleged smoke to be accurate. Instead it appears to be the high Dallas sky seen across the RR yard.

Bill