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Tom Purvis: What Was That About The Carcano?


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On another thread, which I was a participant in accidentally hijacking, you mentioned in passing something about Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods, Ltd., of Montreal having an invoice that mentions "carvines" and "Carcano"...while we were discussing the S&W Victory pistol that LHO had on his person when apprehended at the Texas Theater.

TESTIMONY OF HEINZ W. MICHAELIS

Mr. MICHAELIS. No. We bought altogether 500 guns.

Mr. BALL. 500? And what is the file, the title, that you are now showing?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Empire Wholesale.

Mr. BALL. All right. Now, tell me what you found as to the source of this gun; where you bought it and from whom.

Mr. MICHAELIS. We bought it from Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods, Ltd., 360 Craig Street West, Montreal 1, Quebec.

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"The above list accompanied Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods Limited, Invoice No. 1078. The top of the first page bears notations "Carcano" "case#'s" and "Italian Carvines.". It is noted on paged one through six there are 25 serial numbers listed to each case. On page seven thee are listed 59 serial numbes to each case. In addition, the top of the last page beara a notation "Italian Carbine 46"."

CE 2562

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Would you care to elaborate on just what this evidence means...or might mean...or could mean? [There are times when I find your offhand references like this to be nearly as cryptic as Mr. Hemming's.] So were you trying to make a point...or trying to suggest...or...just WHAT does it mean, if anything? I THINK I can make a connection...based upon suspicion and innuendo. Do you have any facts, or is this speculation, or are you just yanking my chain here?

Edited by Mark Knight
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I see that Mr. Purvis has been back to the forum since I initially posted this...but I'll choose to believe that he possibly didn't see this topic, rather than to suggest that he is avoiding further comment on a subject HE brought up.

So I'll ask again...with the possibility of multiple C2766 serial-numbered Mannlicher-Carcano rifles...are you suggesting that perhaps the LHO rifle DIDN'T come from Klein's...and the reason the postal money order to Klein's was out of sequence by its serial number is that perhaps LHO didn't really order his rifle there?

Or is this just something coincidental that you wanted to "hit-and-run" on, to suggest but never elaborate?

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I see that Mr. Purvis has been back to the forum since I initially posted this...but I'll choose to believe that he possibly didn't see this topic, rather than to suggest that he is avoiding further comment on a subject HE brought up.

So I'll ask again...with the possibility of multiple C2766 serial-numbered Mannlicher-Carcano rifles...are you suggesting that perhaps the LHO rifle DIDN'T come from Klein's...and the reason the postal money order to Klein's was out of sequence by its serial number is that perhaps LHO didn't really order his rifle there?

Or is this just something coincidental that you wanted to "hit-and-run" on, to suggest but never elaborate?

The "Carvines" is my error for sloppy proofreading, as the statement is for "Carbines".

My access to this information is being "rejected" with the statements that the web site is down, which may or may not be factual.

I will find my old copy of the information and get back to you on it.

Tom

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http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol25_0419a.htm

Here, on page 13, you will find the beginning of an attempt by the FBI to trace down a 6.5mm Carcano with the serial number 2766 which was shipped to Empire Wholesale Sporting goods, and thereafter reportedly shipped to Chicago.

You will also find the discussion as to how irrelevant serial numbers on these weapons actually are.

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I find it interesting that Empire WAS identified as the source--via Seaport Trading--of Oswald's pistol, and might well have ALSO been the source of the Mannlicher-Carcano, if not for a certain out-of-sequence postal money order that made Klein's the source...

Interesting, also, that Empire was no longer operating when the Warren Commission came a-calling...

Now, I'm no expert on how CIA fronts operate...but my antennae went up with that "small" detail concerning Empire and their Carcano rifles...and the fact that the WC was told that, since Empire [and their associated companies] reportedly bought the Carcanos "by the pound," no log of serial numbers was kept.

Perhaps it's just another in a string of "interesting coincidences"...but there sure were a LOT of coincidences, weren't there?

Serial numbers on Carcanos irrelevant? Surely not...since the one in the National Archives doesn't quite match the one with the same serial number in the WC photographs...surely you can't be serious that these serial numbers are meaningless [sarcasm intended].

Edited by Mark Knight
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I find it interesting that Empire WAS identified as the source--via Seaport Trading--of Oswald's pistol, and might well have ALSO been the source of the Mannlicher-Carcano, if not for a certain out-of-sequence postal money order that made Klein's the source...

Interesting, also, that Empire was no longer operating when the Warren Commission came a-calling...

Now, I'm no expert on how CIA fronts operate...but my antennae went up with that "small" detail concerning Empire and their Carcano rifles...and the fact that the WC was told that, since Empire [and their associated companies] reportedly bought the Carcanos "by the pound," no log of serial numbers was kept.

Perhaps it's just another in a string of "interesting coincidences"...but there sure were a LOT of coincidences, weren't there?

Serial numbers on Carcanos irrelevant? Surely not...since the one in the National Archives doesn't quite match the one with the same serial number in the WC photographs...surely you can't be serious that these serial numbers are meaningless [sarcasm intended].

Many of the true coincidences related to the Carcano's is also that "Adam Consolidated" formed in 1958.

Thereafter, one merely needs to follow the chain of history of Carlos Prio and his initial arrest for arms smuggling to Castro, of members of Castro's groups being armed with the Carcano, etc.

Certainly, if one wanted to send persons "running for cover", they would purchase weapons from what was a CIA front company "Klein's Sporting Goods" , and not from some company which was actually engaged in possibly furnishing arms for the side, that could ultimately be traced back to oneself.

In this regards, the comments of Mr. Hemming on the subject as to how many Carcano's he may have observed in Cuba would be of immense value.

Perhaps I will send him an email.

Hey Gerry! You reading this BS?

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Tom, you're onto me...or at least a portion of my purpose of this post. I think that Mr. Hemming might have some useful information about the Carcanos as well, and that's why I invoked his name in the initial post, seeking to elicit a comment or two--"cryptic" or otherwise--from him. Perhaps I should've been more direct, and simply emailed him.

But after reading your initial post on the subject, it appeared that you MIGHT have been suggesting that Oswald MAY have sourced BOTH the Carcano AND the revolver through Empire, in one fashion or another. The out-of-sequence money order to Klein's just seems too "convenient," as if it were fabricated evidence...and the fact that Empire kept no log of serial numbers seems to help make the case that they MAY have had something to do with LHO's acquisition of the Carcano a bit less fantastic to believe. With the evidence linking LHO to Klein's, a conncetion to Empire is, in MY mind at least, equally believable.

And if it IS simply another "interesting coincidence" in the case...do these "interesting coincidences" NEVER end?

Could the FBI have concocted the Klein's transaction in order to put some heat on the CIA, in some form or fashion? From the turf wars I've read about in the ensuing years, I think it's possible...and in light of some of the damning testimony about evidence coming out of the FBI crime labs in recent years, dating back to that era, I'm thinking that such a fabrication is a lot more than just "likely."

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Tom, you're onto me...or at least a portion of my purpose of this post. I think that Mr. Hemming might have some useful information about the Carcanos as well, and that's why I invoked his name in the initial post, seeking to elicit a comment or two--"cryptic" or otherwise--from him. Perhaps I should've been more direct, and simply emailed him.

But after reading your initial post on the subject, it appeared that you MIGHT have been suggesting that Oswald MAY have sourced BOTH the Carcano AND the revolver through Empire, in one fashion or another. The out-of-sequence money order to Klein's just seems too "convenient," as if it were fabricated evidence...and the fact that Empire kept no log of serial numbers seems to help make the case that they MAY have had something to do with LHO's acquisition of the Carcano a bit less fantastic to believe. With the evidence linking LHO to Klein's, a conncetion to Empire is, in MY mind at least, equally believable.

And if it IS simply another "interesting coincidence" in the case...do these "interesting coincidences" NEVER end?

Could the FBI have concocted the Klein's transaction in order to put some heat on the CIA, in some form or fashion? From the turf wars I've read about in the ensuing years, I think it's possible...and in light of some of the damning testimony about evidence coming out of the FBI crime labs in recent years, dating back to that era, I'm thinking that such a fabrication is a lot more than just "likely."

Mark:

My personal opinion, for whatever little it may or may not be worth, is that a Carcano was ordered from Kleins, and although this may have in fact been done by LHO, there is also evidence to suggest that he may have been merely following some directions as made by others.

In this regards, the documentation does not support that LHO either ordered, nor did Klein's ever have in their possession, a model 91/38, 6.5mm Carcano "Short Rifle" with the purported serial number C2766, and to the contrary, it appears that they received, as the documents originally indicated, a 6.5mm Carcano TS Carbine of 36 inches in length, which had this serial number, and was in all probability one of the older Model 91"s, which meant that the weapon could have been anything from a true TS Carbine, to a model 91/24 Carbine, to in fact a model 91 long rifle which had been cut back down to the 36-inch carbine size and would have thus been extremely inaccurate due to the "progressive twist" nature of the rifling and having deleted several inches of the final spiral effect on the projectile.

This ordering from Klein's, since many others also offered these weapons, must then be looked at in the overall aspects of either it was "random chance/choice", or else it was an intentional act in ordering the weapon from what has been identified as a "CIA Front" company.

And, in that same regards, exactly why would anyone order such a weapon and not order ammo for it, when even in the "gun nut" world in which we currently live, ammo as well as the stripper clip are not that readily available.

Therefore, one would have to know when he ordered the weapon, that they could obtain both the stripper clip, as well as acquire high quality ammunition.

The entire aspect of usage of the Carcano as the assassination weapon of choice, it would appear, is a direct attempt to point back at some variety of CIA/CIA Front operations, and thus send persons immediately "running for cover" in attempt to negate the damage that revelation of such information would ultimately reveal.

Were one to receive, from Klein's Sporting Goods, a TS Carbine with the serial number C2766, and thereafter someone else who seeks to manipulate certain events and facts, also have access to literally thousands of other Carcano's, then rest assured that with the serial number problems of these weapons, there would not be that much difficulty in location of some other weapon with either the exact same "C2766" and/or merely "2766" in which the letter "C" could be readily stamped.

However, had I, as the original person who ordered, have refeived some old model 91, TS Carbine which may have been made in 1918 or so, one can be assured that one would be somewhat lucky to hit the side of the barn at 300 yards.

And were this weapon in fact a long rifle which had been cut to the 36-inch length, thus completely destroying the rifling accuracy which is imparted due to a progressive twist rifle, then one had best come up with a little better quality/accuracy weapon if they hope to stand any chance of even hitting the Presidential Limousine during an assassination attempt.

And rest assured, the 6.5mm Model 91/38 Carcano, with good rifling, is an extremely accurate weapon.

And, the US Army tests demonstrated that it held within the approximate same accuracy as the current issue US Military M-14 7.62mm rifle.

In fact, in order to "buttress" the fact that the relatively good condition model 91/38 short rifle was what I had actually received from Klein's sporting goods/a CIA Front Company, I just might thereafter have my photograph taken with it in order to be fully convincing that this weapon, serial number C2766, came to be in my possession through the order to Klein's sporting goods.

Not to mention the potential fact that the records are now supposed to show that I ordered and received the 36-inch Carbine, and since JFK was obviously shot with a 40-inch short rifle, that I am merely a "Patsy" who is being framed, most probably by the CIA, who in fact ultimately sold me the model 91, TS (36-inch length) Carbine to begin with.

And rest assured, in event someone did not manage to shoot me prior to trial, that I would have produced a 36-inch length, Model 91, TS Carbine, which I obviously acquired from Klein's Sporting goods, and it would serve as additional proof that the photo of myself holding a short rifle, which had the sling swivel mounted on the bottom*, along with a rope sling (which only the Carbine's had) would further demonstrate the lies and deceptions which were transpiring in attempting to "Frame" me for the assassination of JFK.

Kleins Sporting Goods------------INCOMING! Run for cover!

Tom

P.S. I wanted Mr. Hemming to hopefully post here, fully in the open, all that he may know in relationship to usage of the Carcano rifle and possibly some of the Western Cartridge Company ammo in regards to the Cuban operations.

Not unlike yourself, I could have sent a personal/private email, yet I would hope that by asking here, whatever, if any information, would be shared to all's benefit.

It is assumed that you observed the photo with the Cuban/Castro mercinaries holding these weapons!

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The 40-inch vs. 36-inch Carcano deal is one that hasn't been explained away very well by the "lone-nutters," in my opinion...nor the sling problems. I think your suggested scenario makes more sense than anything I've heard yet on the subject.

I emailed Mr. Hemming a couple of days ago, but haven't yet received a response. I'd see a photo of a Cuban mercenary with a Carcano before, and I'm hoping that Gerry can shed some more light on this part of the background info, including the W/W ammunition.

Yep, it's odd that someone ordering a particular rifle--who'd never owned one of that particular caliber before--wouldn't have thought to order either a clip or some ammo...yet there's no evidenct that LHO did this, even AFTER he received the rifle.

The average person, upon acquiring a rifle--or ANY gun--would usually make sure he had the means to shoot it at some point; yet no one can produce any evidence that Oswald EVER bought a clip or any ammo. And it's awfully hard to kill a president with a gun that has no ammunition, and no clip from which to chamber said ammunition if it DID exist.

Edited by Mark Knight
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I find it interesting that Empire WAS identified as the source--via Seaport Trading--of Oswald's pistol, and might well have ALSO been the source of the Mannlicher-Carcano, if not for a certain out-of-sequence postal money order that made Klein's the source...

Interesting, also, that Empire was no longer operating when the Warren Commission came a-calling...

Now, I'm no expert on how CIA fronts operate...but my antennae went up with that "small" detail concerning Empire and their Carcano rifles...and the fact that the WC was told that, since Empire [and their associated companies] reportedly bought the Carcanos "by the pound," no log of serial numbers was kept.

Perhaps it's just another in a string of "interesting coincidences"...but there sure were a LOT of coincidences, weren't there?

Serial numbers on Carcanos irrelevant? Surely not...since the one in the National Archives doesn't quite match the one with the same serial number in the WC photographs...surely you can't be serious that these serial numbers are meaningless [sarcasm intended].

It would be interesting to xray the carcano rifle in order to determine if there is another serial number under the current number.

In the old days I believe they acid etched the metal to find altered numbers.

It is curious, to me anyway, that this test has never been performed.

Chuck

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I find it interesting that Empire WAS identified as the source--via Seaport Trading--of Oswald's pistol, and might well have ALSO been the source of the Mannlicher-Carcano, if not for a certain out-of-sequence postal money order that made Klein's the source...

Interesting, also, that Empire was no longer operating when the Warren Commission came a-calling...

Now, I'm no expert on how CIA fronts operate...but my antennae went up with that "small" detail concerning Empire and their Carcano rifles...and the fact that the WC was told that, since Empire [and their associated companies] reportedly bought the Carcanos "by the pound," no log of serial numbers was kept.

Perhaps it's just another in a string of "interesting coincidences"...but there sure were a LOT of coincidences, weren't there?

Serial numbers on Carcanos irrelevant? Surely not...since the one in the National Archives doesn't quite match the one with the same serial number in the WC photographs...surely you can't be serious that these serial numbers are meaningless [sarcasm intended].

It would be interesting to xray the carcano rifle in order to determine if there is another serial number under the current number.

In the old days I believe they acid etched the metal to find altered numbers.

It is curious, to me anyway, that this test has never been performed.

Chuck

X-ray would reveal nothing.

Acid etching is utilized when the number has been filed/sanded/ground off.

Due to compression of the steel molecules, even when the entire outline of the number is ground down, the steel below it is still compressed to a higher brinell hardness than the surrounding steel.

Thus, the acid etching can demonstrate the variations in the hardness zones and thus potentially reveal numbers.

There is no indication that any grinding and/or sanding has been done on the serial number of assassination weapon.

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The 40-inch vs. 36-inch Carcano deal is one that hasn't been explained away very well by the "lone-nutters," in my opinion...nor the sling problems. I think your suggested scenario makes more sense than anything I've heard yet on the subject.

I emailed Mr. Hemming a couple of days ago, but haven't yet received a response. I'd see a photo of a Cuban mercenary with a Carcano before, and I'm hoping that Gerry can shed some more light on this part of the background info, including the W/W ammunition.

Yep, it's odd that someone ordering a particular rifle--who'd never owned one of that particular caliber before--wouldn't have thought to order either a clip or some ammo...yet there's no evidenct that LHO did this, even AFTER he received the rifle.

The average person, upon acquiring a rifle--or ANY gun--would usually make sure he had the means to shoot it at some point; yet no one can produce any evidence that Oswald EVER bought a clip or any ammo. And it's awfully hard to kill a president with a gun that has no ammunition, and no clip from which to chamber said ammunition if it DID exist.

The "front" companies got into some difficulties, as in Greece and other areas, covertly supported "freedom fighters" were often found to have virtually new and almost consequtively numbered weapons which could often be easily traced directly back to US having furnished the weapons.

Thus the Carcano, with it's multiple variations; multiple factories; and multiple re-worked weapons.

This provided a source of arms which for all practical purposes was non-tracable back past the point of the supplier.

Many, who have no understandings of the problems of providing small arms to various groups, are normally not aware of these things, and thus look at the Carcano as some weapon that no one would buy.

Rest assured, the 6 million or so rounds of quality ammo which WCC manufactured, was done so for some specific reason, at some specific request.

That these rounds were later sent out of country, only to return, is indicative of some attempt to "wash" them and severe their ties to something and/or someone.

Those who were obviously manipulating LHO, it would appear, had access to the knowledge relative to the Carcano rifles, their availability, the availability of quality ammo, as well as the serial numbering problems associated with these rifles.

And since Kleins was reportedly a CIA Front company, what better place to get a rifle and really stir the pile.

I consider the "not ordering" of any ammo and/or a clip as an error. In which the error demonstrates a "prior knowledge" of the availability of quality ammo and clips for the weapon.

Tom.

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Nevertheless, the US government has presented two Mannlicher Carcano rifles numbered C2766 as evidence.

A close evaluation of the serial numbers in published photographs of the rifles, clearly shows differences in the configuration of the numbers 2766 and the letter C. Whether there are several Mannlicher Carcanos with this particular serial number or not, is of little significance, when the key point in this case is there is ample proof of evidence tampering and other foul play, i.e. a massive cover-up and frame-up.

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Nevertheless, the US government has presented two Mannlicher Carcano rifles numbered C2766 as evidence.

A close evaluation of the serial numbers in published photographs of the rifles, clearly shows differences in the configuration of the numbers 2766 and the letter C. Whether there are several Mannlicher Carcanos with this particular serial number or not, is of little significance, when the key point in this case is there is ample proof of evidence tampering and other foul play, i.e. a massive cover-up and frame-up.

However!

Those who are/may be somewhat more familiar with generation of "smoke", are also aware of the fact that there are many different ways and means of leading one down the wrong trail and away from the fire.

Therefore one must always be aware that this mirror is "multi-faceted", and were there not some ultimate reason for it, much of the smoke that has been followed, would have never been generated to begin with.

Just because one "smells smoke" is not even an absolute indicator of a true fire.

Therefore, not unlike other items, were I to want to send persons "chasing smoke" as in the general stupidity of the "Body Kidnapping/Wound Alteration" scenario, then I would merely have to allow someone to photograph a different weapon than the truly found "C2766", knowing that in event someone did not ultimately find the serial number problem, that I could always covertly point it to someone's attention, and thus send many, many persons running in all directions, and creating all forms of additional speculative scenario's.

Thus generating "GREAT CLOUDS" of additional smoke!---Not to mention also getting an additional laugh or two out of the exercise.

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