Tom Purvis: What Was That About The Carcano?

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Personally, I am in posession of TRUE 36-inch length TS Carbine in the 6.5mm caliber, made at the Gardone factory in 1940 (fixed rear sight exactly like the C2766 weapon), which Carbine carries the serial number C5522.

And, it is a true "original" collector's item as the stock also bears the exact same serial number as does the barrel.

Now, most would recognize the simple fact that if they marked one of these with C5522, then in order to get to that progressive number, that somewhere exist the "sister" to this weapon which would be marked C2766.

http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carc...ase/m91_38.html

91/38 Moschetto T.S.

6.5x52 Carcano

C1565

Beretta

1940

XVIII

Fixed

Bottom

Bent

Made in Italy on barrel.

====================================

91/38 Moschetto T.S.

6.5x52 Carcano

C5901

Beretta Gardone

1940

XVIII

Fixed

Bottom

Bent

Fascist Year Markings

Cal 6.5 stamped on top of fixed rear site.

Made in Italy stamped on left side of barrel, about 2 inches behind muzzle.

Small, illegible cartouche next to larger Beretta Gardone cartouche. Smaller than a US Dime.

Purchased at Dallas, Tx. Gun Show (Market Hall) about 1988.

I liked the fact it was a Beretta and only 65 dollars.

============================================

91/38 Moschetto T.S.

6.5x52 Carcano

C8532

Beretta Gardone

1940

XVIII

============================================

[Mark Knight]

Maybe I'm not being clear about the point that I'm trying to make.

The photographic record appears to show that authorities--be it the FBI, SS, DPD, or the Mayberry Sheriff's Department--had BOTH the 91/24 "shortened" rifle AND the 91/38 "short rifle" in custody...as is proved by the photos of the "same but different" C2766 serial numbers photographed.

[stay with me here.]

Apparently, they had BOTH rifles in police custody AT THE SAME TIME...so they authorities KNEW that there were TWO rifles involved.

[still with me?]

Police ballistically traced the 91/38 to the assassination. Yet the authorities, and the WC, tried to pass off the 91/24, the rifle that came from Klein's, as the murder weapon...knowing full well that it was the SECOND C2766, the 91/38, that was the murder weapon.

SOMEBODY knew this information at the time. That's the cover-up, and the frame...if not of Oswald, then of the Klein's rifle...which was ballistically traced to NO crime, AFAIK.

So if the 91/38 was recovered from the TSBD, as it apparently was...WHEN did the 91/24 come into police custody? From where, since it was claimed that it WASN'T found at the Paine house?

If we can determine THAT, we'll be a lot closer to discovering the co-conspirators involved...whether they were Oswald's co-conspirators, or whether they were part of some other conspiracy, the existence of the TWO rifles in the assassination story prove at least collusion by parties heretofore undetermined.

[Did you follow that?]

And the authorities HAD to know that the existence of the two rifles with matching serial numbers in the same murder case was evidence of some sort of conspiracy...since the police apparently had BOTH rifles--one ballistically connected to the murder, and the other connected to the alleged murderer-- in custody SIMULTANEOUSLY.

If we knew when and where police obtained the Hidell/Klein's rifle--since it wasn't the one that came from the TSBS--it would go a long way towards unraveling the mystery, and the conspiracy.

Can you agree with that?

[Royce Bierma]

Maybe I'm not being clear about the point that I'm trying to make.

The photographic record appears to show that authorities--be it the FBI, SS, DPD, or the Mayberry Sheriff's Department--had BOTH the 91/24 "shortened" rifle AND the 91/38 "short rifle" in custody...as is proved by the photos of the "same but different" C2766 serial numbers photographed.

[stay with me here.]

Apparently, they had BOTH rifles in police custody AT THE SAME TIME...so they authorities KNEW that there were TWO rifles involved.

[still with me?]

Police ballistically traced the 91/38 to the assassination. Yet the authorities, and the WC, tried to pass off the 91/24, the rifle that came from Klein's, as the murder weapon...knowing full well that it was the SECOND C2766, the 91/38, that was the murder weapon.

SOMEBODY knew this information at the time. That's the cover-up, and the frame...if not of Oswald, then of the Klein's rifle...which was ballistically traced to NO crime, AFAIK.

So if the 91/38 was recovered from the TSBD, as it apparently was...WHEN did the 91/24 come into police custody? From where, since it was claimed that it WASN'T found at the Paine house?

If we can determine THAT, we'll be a lot closer to discovering the co-conspirators involved...whether they were Oswald's co-conspirators, or whether they were part of some other conspiracy, the existence of the TWO rifles in the assassination story prove at least collusion by parties heretofore undetermined.

[Did you follow that?]

And the authorities HAD to know that the existence of the two rifles with matching serial numbers in the same murder case was evidence of some sort of conspiracy...since the police apparently had BOTH rifles--one ballistically connected to the murder, and the other connected to the alleged murderer-- in custody SIMULTANEOUSLY.

If we knew when and where police obtained the Hidell/Klein's rifle--since it wasn't the one that came from the TSBS--it would go a long way towards unraveling the mystery, and the conspiracy.

Can you agree with that?

Mark, I agree that the source of the 91/38 short rifle is vitally important. Looking at CE2562, which deals with details of two rifles which Mr. Rankin requested Mr. Hoover to trace, a letter from Mr. Hoover refers to two rifles, one bearing the C2766 serial no., and the other 2766. The one without the preceding "C" was shipped from Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods Store, a subsidiary of International Firearms, both in Montreal, Quebec, to Alden's Inc.(a large mail-order catalogue firm) in Chicago. However, Alden's had no records of receiving the rifle, according to Mr. Hoover, and there the inquiry ended. It's good to keep in mind that the Dodd Committee was investigating firearms sales, particularly ones that originated internationally. And Seaport Traders and Klein's in particular, were two of the companies domestically which were being investigated. The motive suggested by George Michael Evica was that headquarters of gun manufacturers in the US were in Dodd's own state, Connecticut, who were suffering from the competition coming from Canada, Italy, etc. I've reposted this in case you didn't see this the first time. FWIW I believe there were two rifles in custody, as indicated by CE2562, which is a reply to a letter from Mr. Rankin of the Warren Commission, who asked for the provenance of the rifle 2766, AND for the provenance of the rifle C2766. The WC was also apparently aware there were two rifles in custody.

Roy Bierma

[Mark Knight]

Yes, the WC WAS apparently aware that two rifles with serial number C2766 were in custody. Yet they tried to pass off the model 91/38 short rifle, the actual murder weapon, as the model 91/24 "shortened" rifle that came from Klein's.

If the LHO palm print came from the underside of the barrel on the 91/24, then it DIDN'T come from the murder weapon.

If it DID come from the 91/38, the actual murder weapon, THEN we have connected LHO to the murder weapon. Otherwise, the "coincidence" of both guns having the same serial number is ALL, besides the TSBD, that connects Oswald to the murder weapon.

So did the palm print come from the 91/38? Or was it on the 91/24? If it was from the 91/24, then authorities were playing a "shell game" with the evidence...since the 91/24 was NOT linked to the murder.

Tom, I know that there might have been as many as 5, or 50, or whatever, that had serial number 2766 on the barrel. And I'm aware that there were blank barrels that could've been stamped with whatever serial number someone wanted to put there. That's not the problem I'm having with this.

The problem I'm having is...someone who may have stamped a blank barrel on a model 91/38 would have HAD to know what serial number was on LHO's 91/24 in order to match it...and since the serial number, by the Klein's paper trail, ties C2766 to LHO, I really doubt that Oswald would've wanted to have incriminated himself in that way, if he'd had possession of the 91/38 on 11/22/63. Putting myself in the shoes of an assassin, if I'm going to leave behind a rifle that's NOT the only one with a paper trail to me, I'm gonna make DAMNED sure it doesn't have a serial number that SEEMS to tie it to that paper trail.

Now, Royce: the WC has tied LHO's "Victory" model handgun to Seaport Traders, via Empire. In my mind, it's likely that the second Carcano, the model 91/38 short rifle, may have also been sourced from Empire, through who-knows-where. But there's no evidence tying ANY second Carcano to LHO, with the exception of the "Backyard photo," according to Mr. Purvis' explanation. So there's no proof he bought it--and the WC deals extensively with Oswald's money trail--and no evidence that Oswald ever owned more than ONE rifle.

So if LHO's ONE rifle was the 91/38 after the backyard photo, where did the police find the 91/24 to actually have it in custody? And if LHO's ONE rifle was the 91/24, who matched the serial number from it for the 91/38--the murder weapon? And how did they get it into the TSBD?

What I'm getting at, there's a serious gap in the record on WHERE, WHEN, and HOW the police got custody of the second Carcano [the 91/24, if we allow that the 91/38 was found in the TSBD and taken into custody there]...and answering that WHERE, WHEN, and HOW will go a long way toward unraveling the conspiracy. Once we figure out that part, THEN we can work on determining where the 91/38 actually originated from. But for now, as far as I can determine, there's no record as to WWH [where, when and how] police took the 91/24 into custody...but the evidence exists that they had [have?] both rifles simultaneously.

To use one of Tom Purvis' favorite terms, I think the attempt to pass off the 91/38 as the Klein's 91/24--when they obviously knew better--ALSO qualifies as sleight-of-hand, or an attempt thereof. I prefer to think of it as the old con-man's favorite stand-by, the shell game. By either name, it's still a crock.

Edited August 6, 2008 by Mark Knight

[Mark Knight]

More on Klein's and rifles and the confusion attached:

http://jfklancer.com/pdf/moyer.pdf

Of rifles, short rifles, carbines...and that doggone S&W .38 shows up again.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Yes, the WC WAS apparently aware that two rifles with serial number C2766 were in custody. Yet they tried to pass off the model 91/38 short rifle, the actual murder weapon, as the model 91/24 "shortened" rifle that came from Klein's.

If the LHO palm print came from the underside of the barrel on the 91/24, then it DIDN'T come from the murder weapon.

If it DID come from the 91/38, the actual murder weapon, THEN we have connected LHO to the murder weapon. Otherwise, the "coincidence" of both guns having the same serial number is ALL, besides the TSBD, that connects Oswald to the murder weapon.

So did the palm print come from the 91/38? Or was it on the 91/24? If it was from the 91/24, then authorities were playing a "shell game" with the evidence...since the 91/24 was NOT linked to the murder.

Tom, I know that there might have been as many as 5, or 50, or whatever, that had serial number 2766 on the barrel. And I'm aware that there were blank barrels that could've been stamped with whatever serial number someone wanted to put there. That's not the problem I'm having with this.

The problem I'm having is...someone who may have stamped a blank barrel on a model 91/38 would have HAD to know what serial number was on LHO's 91/24 in order to match it...and since the serial number, by the Klein's paper trail, ties C2766 to LHO, I really doubt that Oswald would've wanted to have incriminated himself in that way, if he'd had possession of the 91/38 on 11/22/63. Putting myself in the shoes of an assassin, if I'm going to leave behind a rifle that's NOT the only one with a paper trail to me, I'm gonna make DAMNED sure it doesn't have a serial number that SEEMS to tie it to that paper trail.

Now, Royce: the WC has tied LHO's "Victory" model handgun to Seaport Traders, via Empire. In my mind, it's likely that the second Carcano, the model 91/38 short rifle, may have also been sourced from Empire, through who-knows-where. But there's no evidence tying ANY second Carcano to LHO, with the exception of the "Backyard photo," according to Mr. Purvis' explanation. So there's no proof he bought it--and the WC deals extensively with Oswald's money trail--and no evidence that Oswald ever owned more than ONE rifle.

So if LHO's ONE rifle was the 91/38 after the backyard photo, where did the police find the 91/24 to actually have it in custody? And if LHO's ONE rifle was the 91/24, who matched the serial number from it for the 91/38--the murder weapon? And how did they get it into the TSBD?

What I'm getting at, there's a serious gap in the record on WHERE, WHEN, and HOW the police got custody of the second Carcano [the 91/24, if we allow that the 91/38 was found in the TSBD and taken into custody there]...and answering that WHERE, WHEN, and HOW will go a long way toward unraveling the conspiracy. Once we figure out that part, THEN we can work on determining where the 91/38 actually originated from. But for now, as far as I can determine, there's no record as to WWH [where, when and how] police took the 91/24 into custody...but the evidence exists that they had [have?] both rifles simultaneously.

To use one of Tom Purvis' favorite terms, I think the attempt to pass off the 91/38 as the Klein's 91/24--when they obviously knew better--ALSO qualifies as sleight-of-hand, or an attempt thereof. I prefer to think of it as the old con-man's favorite stand-by, the shell game. By either name, it's still a crock.

To use one of Tom Purvis' favorite terms, I think the attempt to pass off the 91/38 as the Klein's 91/24

Mark:

1. Beyond any reasonable doubt, LHO ordered (at least one) a rifle from Klein's Sporting goods.

2. The "Department" number of the add on which the known order was completed was of course 358. Which by the way was a tracking system for Klein's marketing department which was utilized to not only track the actual Magazine/publication in which the add was run, but was also of course a means of tracking the exact weapon which was to be shipped.

3. Not unlike any "inventory control" system, the C20-T750 issue weapons would have been stored in their own specific area.

4. It should be further noted that the add for the Carbine does not include the wording which was included in the Short Rifle/Model 91/38 adds: "Shows only slight use."

5. The C20-T750 add, absolutely pictures the old long rifles which had been cut down to the Model 91/24 TS Carbine length.

This can be easily determined by the rear sight.

6. Of course, this does not rule out that Klein's did not also "mix & match" true TS Carbines with the Model 91/24's and sell them under the same add.

7. The first "slight/sleight-of-hand" appears to be in the LHO & associates part in which all evidence indicates that he ordered a piece of junk Model 91/24 "Carbine". With which one could not hit the barn.

Then, through some magical event, the 91/24 became an extremely accurate Model 91/38 Short Rifle, with which LHO was photographed. (Which appears to have been done in order to provide some semblance of proof that LHO acquired the rifle from Klein's) aka (Incoming, run for cover!) aka (Who in hell is pointing the finger at us!)

8. The next "sleight-of-hand" appears to come from Postal Inspector Holmes (no doubt FBI Informant), in his ever to hasty attempt to pass off the Model 91/38 Short Rifle Klein's add.*

9. Thereafter, the "Shell Game" continued.

10. In following this game, one should not that the rifle was not traced "back" to Kleins.

In fact, the FBI actually went way back to the actual purported import of the C2766 weapon and thereafter informed Klein's that it had been traced to them from the supplier.*

So did the palm print come from the 91/38? Or was it on the 91/24? If it was from the 91/24, then authorities were playing a "shell game" with the evidence...since the 91/24 was NOT linked to the murder.

That I am aware, neither the Dallas Police nor the FBI had in their possession any weapon other than the Model 91/38 Short Rifle.

Notes:

Please note that the photo "11 36" in the relatively well written article, is in fact the Cavalry Carbine. It is neither the true TS Carbine nor is it the cut down long rifle model carbine (91/24).

*EEI

[Thomas H. Purvis]

1. As an individual who had been to the Soviet Union; an individual who received as well as sent mail to the Soviet Union; and an individual who received mail from a variety of "Watch List" groups, LHO would have been on the FBI watch list.

2. Therefore, any P.O. Box (or for that matter even hand delivered mail) would have been intercepted and screened.

3. Therefore, a Postal Inspector would have been fully aware that LHO had received a "package" from a weapons supplier, who also happened to have come under the scrutiny of a watch list.

4. To include, the probable actual opening of the mail/package, by a U.S. Postal Inspector.

Therefore, to a relatively high degree of probability, U.S. Postal Inspector Harry Holmes* not only was aware of the shipment of a Carcano rifle to a known dissadent, but in all probability the package was opened and information documented relative to the weapon; serial number; and supplier. (*Or at least his subordinate Postal Inspector who was never questioned)

In all probability LHO should have "smiled" when he picked the weapons up at the Post Office.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

1. As an individual who had been to the Soviet Union; an individual who received as well as sent mail to the Soviet Union; and an individual who received mail from a variety of "Watch List" groups, LHO would have been on the FBI watch list.

2. Therefore, any P.O. Box (or for that matter even hand delivered mail) would have been intercepted and screened.

3. Therefore, a Postal Inspector would have been fully aware that LHO had received a "package" from a weapons supplier, who also happened to have come under the scrutiny of a watch list.

4. To include, the probable actual opening of the mail/package, by a U.S. Postal Inspector.

Therefore, to a relatively high degree of probability, U.S. Postal Inspector Harry Holmes* not only was aware of the shipment of a Carcano rifle to a known dissadent, but in all probability the package was opened and information documented relative to the weapon; serial number; and supplier. (*Or at least his subordinate Postal Inspector who was never questioned)

In all probability LHO should have "smiled" when he picked the weapons up at the Post Office.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/holmes1.htm

I had my secretary go out and purchase about half a dozen books on outdoor type magazines such as Field and Stream, with the thought that I might locate this gun to identify it, and I did.

Mr. BELIN. You have what magazine?

Mr. HOLMES. Field and Stream of November 1963.

Mr. BELIN. You found a Field and Stream magazine of just November 1963?

Mr. HOLMES. It was the current magazine on the rack.

Mr. BELIN. You got it to look for a gun and identified it in this magazine?

Is this the page? I will call it Holmes Deposition Exhibit 2.

Mr. HOLMES. Here, page 98.

Mr. BELIN. Well, it is on the back of a page numbered 98, is that right?

Mr. HOLMES. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Or the front side. I am marking on the top of it, "Holmes Deposition Exhibit 2."

Was that the page you tore out?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. I notice there is a magazine or there is a number of guns identified on that page.

Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. I See one circled in red, is that correct?

Mr. HOLMES. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Who circled that in red?

Mr. HOLMES. I did.

Mr. BELIN. Then I see that it is a picture with a gun with a scope on it and it says, "6.5 Italian carbine," in big black letters. And underneath it says, "Late military issue. Only 40 inches overall. Weighs 7 lbs. Shows only slight use, test-fired and head spaced, ready for shooting. Turned-down bolt. 6-shot, clip fed, rear sight." And it is marked "$12.78."

Mr. HOLMES. With scope, it is $19.95.

Mr. BELIN. There is a number. That $12.78 says "C20-1196." And underneath that it says, "C20-750, carbine with brand new 4x- 3/4" diameter (illustrated) $19.95." Is that right?

Mr. HOLMES. That's correct.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol20_0097b.htm

==============================================================================

Unfortunately, the Model 91/38 Short Rifle did not show up for sale until some point in time in late 1963.

Now! Since Holmes correctly identified the add with the actual rifle, as well as the supplier, there would appear to be more here than merely meets the eye.

Especially since LHO & Klein's own paperwork serves to indicate that LHO ordered and was shipped the "C20-T750" (Long rifle cut down to Carbine length) as demonstrated and shown in the late 1962/early 1963 Klein's add in American Rifleman magazine.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol21_0364a.htm

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol21_0364b.htm

Martha Moyer has written and published an excellent article in regards to the confusions of the various adds.

And, when one understands the actual weapon differences, it adds to this understanding.

Yet, nothing written to date adds to the knowledge as to how Holmes accurately chose the correct 40-inch "Carbine" add, which accurately demonstrated the assassination weapon found on the sixth floor of the TSDB.

And, if Holmes knew where to look (Klein's add), then the FBI also knew immediately that they could go to Kleins.

Yet, rather than implicate a potential source, the FBI purportedly begain their search for C2766 with a supplier and traced it to Klein's through this virtually impossible avenue* (within the time frame in which the FBI was at Klein's).

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/waldman.htm

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; on the night of November 22, 1963, the FBI contacted our company in an effort to determine whether the gun had been in our possession and, if so, what disposition we had made of it.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know how the FBI happened to contact you or your company?

Mr. WALDMAN. The FBI had a record of a gun of this type and with this serial number having been shipped to us by Crescent Firearms.

Mr. BELIN. Do you mean that Crescent Firearms gave the FBI this information?

Mr. WALDMAN. Well, I--I must assume that's the case. I don't know it for a fact.

Mr. BELIN. Did the FBI indicate at what time, what period that they felt you might have received this rifle originally?

Mr. WALDMAN. We were able to determine from our purchase records the date in which the rifle had been received, and they also had a record of when it had been shipped,

=========================================

Not bad work for "pre"-computer days.

Probably merely another example of the "Hoover Competence", no doubt!

[Royce Bierma]

More on Klein's and rifles and the confusion attached:

http://jfklancer.com/pdf/moyer.pdf

Of rifles, short rifles, carbines...and that doggone S&W .38 shows up again.

Mark, I found the following item in a supplementary list of exhibits in the Gemberling report in CD1066:

See item no. 103 It indicates that serial numbers for the rifles in the Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods WERE available and that the serial number 2766 was on the list.

Roy Bierma

Edited August 15, 2008 by Royce Bierma

[Royce Bierma]

More on Klein's and rifles and the confusion attached:

http://jfklancer.com/pdf/moyer.pdf

Of rifles, short rifles, carbines...and that doggone S&W .38 shows up again.

Mark, I found the following item in a supplementary list of exhibits in the Gemberling report in CD1066:

See item no. 103 It indicates that serial numbers for the rifles in the Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods WERE available and that the serial number 2766 was on the list.

Roy Bierma

Mark, see also from CD1066D79 listing "Two empty boxes of "Italian ammunition."

Roy

[Charles Drago]

It seems the appropriate time to clear the air regarding deeper issues related to the Carcano.

Accordingly, I'm starting a new thread on which I'll post three separate essays on the subject authored by the late George Michael Evica.

Look, then, for Evica on the Carcano