Of Slings & Swivels

[Thomas H. Purvis]

THE MANNLICHER CARCANO RIFLE

"There have been a number of rumors and old wives tales passed around about the safety of the Mannlicher Carcano rifle. When in good condition and used with the proper ammunition, it is as safe as any other military rifle. No nation is going to adopt a weapon which is dangerous to its own troops."

"SMALL ARMS OF THE WORLD"

[Thomas H. Purvis]

THE MANNLICHER CARCANO RIFLE

"There have been a number of rumors and old wives tales passed around about the safety of the Mannlicher Carcano rifle. When in good condition and used with the proper ammunition, it is as safe as any other military rifle. No nation is going to adopt a weapon which is dangerous to its own troops."

"SMALL ARMS OF THE WORLD"

The primary reasoning for posting this attachment first, is so that one can see a little about the actual 36-inch length carbine and how so many of these actually came to exist, with multiple serial numbers.

1. Beginning with the initial/first/& true 36.2 inch overall length TS (Truppe Special) Carbine, we find that it had a barrel length of 17.7 inches.

This weapon was produced at multiple factories, with multiple duplicated serial numbers, with the only difference being the Factory Stamp of which factory made the weapon.

2. Next, we move to the factory produced "Cavalry Carbine", which was a totally separate production weapon that too was produced at a variety of factories, again with duplicated serial numbers, and only the factory stamp being different.

In this regards, it is noted that the barrel for the Cavalry Carbine is exactly the same 17.7 inch length barrel as for the TS Carbine

3. Now, we move to the Model 91/24 Carbine. Which in reality began life as the Long Rifle which again was produced at multiple factories, with duplicated serial numbers, and the only difference being the Factory Stamp at which the rifle was produced.

In 1914, at the beginning of WWI, the Italian inventory of Carcano rifles was approximately 700,00 weapons. By the end of WWI (1918), the Beretta factory at Terni had produced a cumulative total of in excess of 2,063,750 just during the war years of 1914 to 1918.

This of course does not include the existing 700,000 inventory, nor does it include the millions of these rifles which were produced at the other factories.

Anyway, back to the Model 91/24!

In 1924, the Italian Government embarked on a program in which several million of the formerly Long Rifles with the 30.7 inch length barrells, were cut down and made into carbines, which are quite similar to the Model 91 TS Carbine.

In doing this, the barrel length was cut down to the exact 17.7 inch length of the Model TS Carbine, which also happened to be the exact same length as the 17.7 inch length barrel of the Cavalry Carbine.

Thus again adding to the duplication of serial numbers on weapons which could be classified as "Carbines" and thus have the exact same length 17.7 inch length interchangable barrels.

I would also add that if one gets his hands on one of these weapons, it is extremely inaccurate, as all pre-WWII weapons have "progressive" twist gain in the rifling.

Thus the round only achieves it maximum rotation/spin for stability in the last short distance of the barrel.

In reducing the Model 91 rifles from a 30.7 inch barrel to a now 17.7 inch barrel, the Italians cut off and removed the forward 13 inches from the rifle, which contained that portion of the barrel in which the final and ultimate "maximum" spin was imparted to the bullet.

Therefore, much of the "Old Wives Tales" as regards the inaccuracy of the weapons, as if one gets his hands on one of these weapons, even were the barrel absolutely brand new, it could not be made to hold a reliable shot pattern grouping.

*There are of course other factual reasons for inaccuracies of these weapons which have to do with the grade of steel in the barrell and how rapidly it wore down, whether they are old enough to have been utilized prior to development of the less corrosive "smokeless" powder for the round, etc; etc; etc.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

THE MANNLICHER CARCANO RIFLE

"There have been a number of rumors and old wives tales passed around about the safety of the Mannlicher Carcano rifle. When in good condition and used with the proper ammunition, it is as safe as any other military rifle. No nation is going to adopt a weapon which is dangerous to its own troops."

"SMALL ARMS OF THE WORLD"

The primary reasoning for posting this attachment first, is so that one can see a little about the actual 36-inch length carbine and how so many of these actually came to exist, with multiple serial numbers.

1. Beginning with the initial/first/& true 36.2 inch overall length TS (Truppe Special) Carbine, we find that it had a barrel length of 17.7 inches.

This weapon was produced at multiple factories, with multiple duplicated serial numbers, with the only difference being the Factory Stamp of which factory made the weapon.

2. Next, we move to the factory produced "Cavalry Carbine", which was a totally separate production weapon that too was produced at a variety of factories, again with duplicated serial numbers, and only the factory stamp being different.

In this regards, it is noted that the barrel for the Cavalry Carbine is exactly the same 17.7 inch length barrel as for the TS Carbine

3. Now, we move to the Model 91/24 Carbine. Which in reality began life as the Long Rifle which again was produced at multiple factories, with duplicated serial numbers, and the only difference being the Factory Stamp at which the rifle was produced.

In 1914, at the beginning of WWI, the Italian inventory of Carcano rifles was approximately 700,00 weapons. By the end of WWI (1918), the Beretta factory at Terni had produced a cumulative total of in excess of 2,063,750 just during the war years of 1914 to 1918.

This of course does not include the existing 700,000 inventory, nor does it include the millions of these rifles which were produced at the other factories.

Anyway, back to the Model 91/24!

In 1924, the Italian Government embarked on a program in which several million of the formerly Long Rifles with the 30.7 inch length barrells, were cut down and made into carbines, which are quite similar to the Model 91 TS Carbine.

In doing this, the barrel length was cut down to the exact 17.7 inch length of the Model TS Carbine, which also happened to be the exact same length as the 17.7 inch length barrel of the Cavalry Carbine.

Thus again adding to the duplication of serial numbers on weapons which could be classified as "Carbines" and thus have the exact same length 17.7 inch length interchangable barrels.

I would also add that if one gets his hands on one of these weapons, it is extremely inaccurate, as all pre-WWII weapons have "progressive" twist gain in the rifling.

Thus the round only achieves it maximum rotation/spin for stability in the last short distance of the barrel.

In reducing the Model 91 rifles from a 30.7 inch barrel to a now 17.7 inch barrel, the Italians cut off and removed the forward 13 inches from the rifle, which contained that portion of the barrel in which the final and ultimate "maximum" spin was imparted to the bullet.

Therefore, much of the "Old Wives Tales" as regards the inaccuracy of the weapons, as if one gets his hands on one of these weapons, even were the barrel absolutely brand new, it could not be made to hold a reliable shot pattern grouping.

*There are of course other factual reasons for inaccuracies of these weapons which have to do with the grade of steel in the barrell and how rapidly it wore down, whether they are old enough to have been utilized prior to development of the less corrosive "smokeless" powder for the round, etc; etc; etc.

A picture is worth a thousand words, yet it too sometimes causes confusion and errors.

This photo, directly from the book "SMALL ARMS OF THE WORLD" is a commonly found photo and can be found on other internet sites related to the Carcano weapon.

I would add that there appears to be even an error in this excellent reference.

Rifle# 4 is listed as being a Model 1941 Rifle (Long Rifle). Yet, it one looks directly at the bolt, they will see that it is not turned down.

The original 1891 Carcano had a straight bolt design in which the bolt handle extended directly 90-degrees out from the rifle stock. This of course was prone to catch and hang on things, and was soon thereafter changed to the "turn down" bolt.

In the photo, it appears that the bolt on this rifle is of the old straight bolt design, which was fully interchangable.

This can not be verified from the photo, due merely that one can not determine if the bolt is or is not fully closed in the photo.

Nevertheless, this photo demonstrates the major Models/varieties of the Carcano produced throughout the years.

And in that regards, one could imagine multiple C2766 as well as multiple 2766 serial numbers, then assume this collection were from only one factory, and then multiply the number of weapons times the number of different factories, and if one so wanted, he could come up with an approximation of how many of these rifles with these type numbers could exist.

I would add that NOT all of the factories produced each and every model of the Carcano. The actual model 91/38 was extremely limited in the number of factories which produced the weapon, and although some claim that it was only produced at the "Terni" plant, weapons have been found with other Factory marks which demonstrate some inaccuracy in that statement.

Then, there are a grouping of other extenuating factors which demonstrate the futility of attempting to track any of these weapons merely by serial# alone.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

THE MANNLICHER CARCANO RIFLE

"There have been a number of rumors and old wives tales passed around about the safety of the Mannlicher Carcano rifle. When in good condition and used with the proper ammunition, it is as safe as any other military rifle. No nation is going to adopt a weapon which is dangerous to its own troops."

"SMALL ARMS OF THE WORLD"

The primary reasoning for posting this attachment first, is so that one can see a little about the actual 36-inch length carbine and how so many of these actually came to exist, with multiple serial numbers.

1. Beginning with the initial/first/& true 36.2 inch overall length TS (Truppe Special) Carbine, we find that it had a barrel length of 17.7 inches.

This weapon was produced at multiple factories, with multiple duplicated serial numbers, with the only difference being the Factory Stamp of which factory made the weapon.

2. Next, we move to the factory produced "Cavalry Carbine", which was a totally separate production weapon that too was produced at a variety of factories, again with duplicated serial numbers, and only the factory stamp being different.

In this regards, it is noted that the barrel for the Cavalry Carbine is exactly the same 17.7 inch length barrel as for the TS Carbine

3. Now, we move to the Model 91/24 Carbine. Which in reality began life as the Long Rifle which again was produced at multiple factories, with duplicated serial numbers, and the only difference being the Factory Stamp at which the rifle was produced.

In 1914, at the beginning of WWI, the Italian inventory of Carcano rifles was approximately 700,00 weapons. By the end of WWI (1918), the Beretta factory at Terni had produced a cumulative total of in excess of 2,063,750 just during the war years of 1914 to 1918.

This of course does not include the existing 700,000 inventory, nor does it include the millions of these rifles which were produced at the other factories.

Anyway, back to the Model 91/24!

In 1924, the Italian Government embarked on a program in which several million of the formerly Long Rifles with the 30.7 inch length barrells, were cut down and made into carbines, which are quite similar to the Model 91 TS Carbine.

In doing this, the barrel length was cut down to the exact 17.7 inch length of the Model TS Carbine, which also happened to be the exact same length as the 17.7 inch length barrel of the Cavalry Carbine.

Thus again adding to the duplication of serial numbers on weapons which could be classified as "Carbines" and thus have the exact same length 17.7 inch length interchangable barrels.

I would also add that if one gets his hands on one of these weapons, it is extremely inaccurate, as all pre-WWII weapons have "progressive" twist gain in the rifling.

Thus the round only achieves it maximum rotation/spin for stability in the last short distance of the barrel.

In reducing the Model 91 rifles from a 30.7 inch barrel to a now 17.7 inch barrel, the Italians cut off and removed the forward 13 inches from the rifle, which contained that portion of the barrel in which the final and ultimate "maximum" spin was imparted to the bullet.

Therefore, much of the "Old Wives Tales" as regards the inaccuracy of the weapons, as if one gets his hands on one of these weapons, even were the barrel absolutely brand new, it could not be made to hold a reliable shot pattern grouping.

*There are of course other factual reasons for inaccuracies of these weapons which have to do with the grade of steel in the barrell and how rapidly it wore down, whether they are old enough to have been utilized prior to development of the less corrosive "smokeless" powder for the round, etc; etc; etc.

A picture is worth a thousand words, yet it too sometimes causes confusion and errors.

This photo, directly from the book "SMALL ARMS OF THE WORLD" is a commonly found photo and can be found on other internet sites related to the Carcano weapon.

I would add that there appears to be even an error in this excellent reference.

Rifle# 4 is listed as being a Model 1941 Rifle (Long Rifle). Yet, it one looks directly at the bolt, they will see that it is not turned down.

The original 1891 Carcano had a straight bolt design in which the bolt handle extended directly 90-degrees out from the rifle stock. This of course was prone to catch and hang on things, and was soon thereafter changed to the "turn down" bolt.

In the photo, it appears that the bolt on this rifle is of the old straight bolt design, which was fully interchangable.

This can not be verified from the photo, due merely that one can not determine if the bolt is or is not fully closed in the photo.

Nevertheless, this photo demonstrates the major Models/varieties of the Carcano produced throughout the years.

And in that regards, one could imagine multiple C2766 as well as multiple 2766 serial numbers, then assume this collection were from only one factory, and then multiply the number of weapons times the number of different factories, and if one so wanted, he could come up with an approximation of how many of these rifles with these type numbers could exist.

I would add that NOT all of the factories produced each and every model of the Carcano. The actual model 91/38 was extremely limited in the number of factories which produced the weapon, and although some claim that it was only produced at the "Terni" plant, weapons have been found with other Factory marks which demonstrate some inaccuracy in that statement.

Then, there are a grouping of other extenuating factors which demonstrate the futility of attempting to track any of these weapons merely by serial# alone.

Anyone completely confused and lost yet?

Having pretty well covered the aspects of the potential "multiple" of 36-inch length Carcano Carbines which could bear the potential variable of C2766/2766, then one must also throw in the added variables of a weapon having the number C276 and receiving an added "6", or any such number of potential variables along this lines.

And, since I am in possession of a 36-inch length Model 38 (fixed rear sight) TS Carbine which was manufactured at the Beretta plant at Gardone, Italy in 1940, and which contains the absolutely original serial number C5522 as stamped into the barrel as well as being stamped into the stock, it would serve little purpose for anyone to waste their time in attempting to tell me that there is not also an exact same weapon with the number C2766, made at the Beretta Gardone plant, floating around out there somewhere.

Now, back to additional confusion relative to serial numbers of these weapons.

Just prior to outbreak of WWII, the Italians began a program in which they were going to begin production of the Carcano in the 7.35mm caliber, and in this regards began to produce most varieties/models of the

weapons in that caliber.

With the outbreak of the war, and most of the weapons in the hands of the troops being 6.5mm caliber weapons as well as their ammunitions stocks consisting mostly of 6.5mm ammunition, the 7.35mm conversion program was ceased.

Nevertheless, a considerable number of these weapons were produced in the four basic designs of the weapon.

a. The Long Rifle.

b. The TS Carbine

c. The Cavalry Carbine

d. The 91/38 short rifle

Ultimately, many of the rifles and short rifles were re-barrelled back to the 6.5mm caliber, and there is in fact no current records as to what typ of serial numbers these weapons acquired.

One usually knows that he has one of these re-barrelled 91/38 short rifles if the stock serial number is present and it does not match the barrel serial number.

This was confusing enough, in regards to serial number tracebility, but then it became completely lost forever when the Italian Government took a series of the Long rifles and reportedly cut their barrels down from the 30.7 inch length, to the 20.9 inch length of the model 91/38 short rifles.

A large number of the North African troops had this done as they (the soldiers) did not like the added length of the long rifles in getting in and out of armored vehicles, and since no one was shooting at anyone in such great distances, the shortened 91/38 type weapon became somewhat a weapon of choice among many troops.

So, ALL Model 91/38 short rifles, did not begin life as such either, and in this may lie some of the answers to non-match of the barrel serial numbers with the stock serial numbers as well as production stamps on Model 91/38 which indicate that they were manufactured at plants other than the Beretta/Terni Plant.

The record here is not clear.

Furthermore, serious researchers on the Carcano have also identified another model of the 91/38 which was apparantly a "show" quality rifle which was issued only to special "Guard" troops, such as the Palace Guard.

It is unknown as to whether these weapons had any different serial number accountability or not, or whether they were merely weapons matched to specific stock woods, and a little better blue jobs on the metal surface.

Lastly, one must throw in the Model 1941 Rifle (Long Rifle) which was in fact another production model in which the barrel was now reduced down from the previous 30.7 inches, to a barrel length of only 27.2 inches.

This weapon, for all practical purposes, was identical to the original Model 91 (with turn-down bolt) except for the shorter barrel length and a slightly different adjustable rear sight.

Made primarily at the Beretta/Terni factory, this weapon had basically only gone into production shortly before the Italian surrender in 1943.

Nevertheless, large stocks of these weapons and replacement barrels would have been stored at the Terni Plant, and in the case of replacement barrels, they would have been "sterile" in regards to serial numbers as this was a last portion of the weapon assembly process.

Therefore, an unknown quantity of completely "sterile" rifle barrels, in all variations and lengths were available in each and every one of the Arms factories in Italy when they surrendered to the allies in 1943, and much of this warstock was ultimately purchased by American Arms dealers such as Empire Sporting Goods and the others who sold these weapons throughout the world.

This is also a portion of the "Why" the CIA as well as anyone else engaged in the fostering of revolutions, liked the Carcano as a weapon of choice.

It is, was, and will continue to remain virtually untraceable.

[Mark Knight]

"The time has come," the seeker said,

"To talk of many things;

Of Mannlichers and magazines,

And swivel bands and slings."

For the most part, I already understood the history of the various incarnations of the Mannlicher-Carcano and its longer and shorter barrels and various manufacturing plants. Good background for those not familiar, though.

So...shall we proceed to the main course, or is there yet another multiple rounds of appetizers to serve up?

[Mark Knight]

Here comes another stream-of-consciousness thing:

Robert Emmett Johnson...Mannlicher-Carcanos...Montreal...Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods, Limited...Mannlicher-Carcanos...Montreal...LHO's S&W revolver, via Seaport Traders...

I realize that Montreal ain't Rio Frio, TX...but it sure seems like these li'l coincidences just keep on comin', don't it?

[Thomas H. Purvis]

"The time has come," the seeker said,

"To talk of many things;

Of Mannlichers and magazines,

And swivel bands and slings."

For the most part, I already understood the history of the various incarnations of the Mannlicher-Carcano and its longer and shorter barrels and various manufacturing plants. Good background for those not familiar, though.

So...shall we proceed to the main course, or is there yet another multiple rounds of appetizers to serve up?

Onward to sling swivels and barrel bands.

The sling swivel/barrel band for the 36 inch length Carbines, in which the sling swivel is mounted on the bottom, will not fit onto the model 91/38 short rifles.

The Carbine has a considerably more tapered forearem to the stock, as well as the top portion of the wooden forearm grip.

These barrel bands are thus considerably smaller in dimension than what is required to fit over the stock of the model 91/38.

This holds true for the front sling swivel/barrel band of the long rifles as well, and if one will take a quick look at the photo's of the various carcano's it can be readily seen that ONLY that barrel band/sling swivel, as made for the model 91/38, will fit on this weapon.

Therefore, even those models of weapons which may have at one time been long rifles, and were thereafter cut down to the 91/38 dimensions, would have only had the larger size barrel band and sling swivel if the cut down barrel and receiver were re-installed into the model 91/38 stock and forearm.

However, there is an answer!

The model 91/38, which was first produced in 1938, had the stock end of the sling mount actually embedded into the left side of the stock, just a couple inches up from the buttplate. This type sling mount at the butt of the weapon was already in service for the Cavalry Carbine.

As can be seen from both the long rifles as well as the various 36-inch length carbines, the stock/butt end sling swivel is in fact fashioned into the center bottom portion of the stock, and hangs directly down, just as does the foreward barrel band/sling swivel.

The first manufacturing of the model 91/38 Short Rifle, had a barrel band/sling swivel which, although of the proper size for the specific weapon, also had the forward sling swivel pointing directly downward, just as do those of the 36-inch length carbines.

This version of the Model 91/38 Short Rifle, with the forward barrel band/sling swivel pointing downwards, remained in production from 1938 until 1940, in the 6.5mm as well as 7.35mm versions, and the barrel band/sling swivels are entirely interchangeable irrelevant of the caliber of the weapon.

However, the "offset" of having the sling mounted onto the side of the stock at the base/butt end, and mounted under the barrel at the foreward end, created an inconvenience in shouldering and carring these weapons.

Despite what most think and see, soldiers who are not in parades, shoulder and carry the weapon slung over the back shoulder, and flat against the back, especially if the weapon is short enough in length to confortably do so.

The pre-1940 Short rifles, slung well at the "butt" end, over the shoulder, as with the sling mount embedded into the flat side of the stock, it was easy to make the stock ride flat on the back.

However, because the forward (barrel end) barrel band & sling swivel were mounted directly under the barrel, this made the weapon constantly want to "twist" on the back, as the upper portion of the sling was holding the stock flat against the back, and the lower portion of the sling was always attempting to pull the weapon back around to a position in which the bottom edge of the weapon was riding on the back.

In 1940, the Italian Government approved the new forward barrel band/sling swivel, in which the sling swivel was mounted onto the left side of the barrel band, which was also the same side of the weapon as was the stock/butt sling mount.

Now, the weapon could be easily carried over the back and it would remain flat against the back, and not be continously attempting to twist itself while one was walking.

Nevertheless, many pre-1940 Model 91/38 short rifles, in both 6.5mm as well as 7.35mm were produced with the sling swivel on the forward barrell band, pointing directly downwards from the bottom of the stock.

All of these forward barrel band/sling swivel mounts are completely interchangable on any other model 91/38 short rifle.

The only modification that is required being that in event one is installing the barrel band/sling swivel in which the swivel is mounted onto the left hand side of the weapon, the wooden forearm portion of the stock must have a hole drilled completely through the wood, under the barrel.

This provides the routing for the horizontally installed screw/bolt onto which the side mount sling swivel then screws into.

As a final note, it can frequently be found as to which of the model 91/38 Short rifle stocks once possessed the bottom mount sling swivel, as the swivel was frequently forced/knocked backwards to the point that it would make an indentation into the wood on the underside of the forearm grip, just about one-half an inch back from where the actual barrel band was located.

This was merely the sling swivel being forced into the wood onto the underside of the stock.

[Mark Knight]

From DPD Box #3, Folder #28. Interesting...but Oswald's revolver allegedly came from Seaport Traders, not Klein's...although both COULD have been sourced from Klein's, had he chosen to do so...

[Michael Hogan]

Had he chosen to do so, Lee Oswald could have easily purchased a rifle and handgun that could never have been traced to him. I've always wondered why, if he were planning to shoot the President, he wouldn't have done that.

Mike Hogan

[Mark Knight]

Note that the Klein's ad shown above lists it as a 40-inch rifle, and also note that the ammunition--which LHO did NOT purchase--is Italian military ammo, NOT Western [uS-made]...but the offer DID include a 6-round clip.

My point, I suppose...is that LHO allegedly bought the rifle from Klein's, and the pistol from Seaport Traders. Yet he could just as easily have bought BOTh from Klein's...or, since the revolver came to Seaport via Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods, Limited, of Montreal, why would LHO not have similarly sourced his rifle from the same folks...ESPECIALLY since, according to WC testimony, Empire kept NO serial-number records on THEIR Carcanos, and therefore they WOULD have been untraceable.

Curious stuff, indeed.

Just a caveat...this is apparently a 1964 Klein's ad, since they're offering a 1964 edition of a manual in the ad.

[Mark Knight]

As for our discussion of Mannlicher-Carcano rifles and clips [magazines], I found the following link [while seeking something else entirely]:

The Missing Clip

What I found most interesting was the fact that, due to the design of the M-C, when the last shell in the clip is CHAMBERED, the clip disengages from the rifle. Which would mean that, if the clip was reinserted into the rifle before the rifle was discovered--allegedly with the last round already in the chamber--why were there no fingerprints found on the clip? Or if there WAS no clip found in the rifle, why are there no mentions made by ANYONE about separately finding a clip?

And why wasn't the rifle tested to see if it had been fired since its last cleaning?

All interesting stuff...Jack White, according to the footnotes, is already aware of this material; while I was aware of bits and pieces of it, I'd never seen ALL this material together in one place before.

[Mark Knight]

While checking out other things, I ran across CE 1331:

CE 1331

So besides Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago, another purchaser of the scopes such as the one found on CE 139--according to the SOLE importer of that scope--was Dave's House of Guns, 2544 Elm Sreet, Dallas, TX. But in doing a Google search for Dave's House of Guns, the ONLY reference relating to the WC inquiry is a deposition regarding the S&W Victory series revolver...and NOTHING about whether or not Dave Goldstein and company had anything to do with selling one of those scopes--or mounting one on a Mannlicher-Carcano of ANY length.

Now, I'm not a lawyer or a cop...but if I had noticed that one of the most notable customers of the ONLY importer of that scope was located IN DALLAS, I believe I would've asked the obvious questions.

Another interesting coincidence, I suppose.

"Nothin' to see here...move along, folks..."

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Note that the Klein's ad shown above lists it as a 40-inch rifle, and also note that the ammunition--which LHO did NOT purchase--is Italian military ammo, NOT Western [uS-made]...but the offer DID include a 6-round clip.

My point, I suppose...is that LHO allegedly bought the rifle from Klein's, and the pistol from Seaport Traders. Yet he could just as easily have bought BOTh from Klein's...or, since the revolver came to Seaport via Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods, Limited, of Montreal, why would LHO not have similarly sourced his rifle from the same folks...ESPECIALLY since, according to WC testimony, Empire kept NO serial-number records on THEIR Carcanos, and therefore they WOULD have been untraceable.

Curious stuff, indeed.

Just a caveat...this is apparently a 1964 Klein's ad, since they're offering a 1964 edition of a manual in the ad.

This add has erroneously led many to the wrong clonclusions, which it would appear was intentional.

Check the order form reportedly completed by LHO. It called for the "CT" on the numbers, which was for the 36 inch Carbine, and for which Kleins reportedly had received.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

As for our discussion of Mannlicher-Carcano rifles and clips [magazines], I found the following link [while seeking something else entirely]:

The Missing Clip

What I found most interesting was the fact that, due to the design of the M-C, when the last shell in the clip is CHAMBERED, the clip disengages from the rifle. Which would mean that, if the clip was reinserted into the rifle before the rifle was discovered--allegedly with the last round already in the chamber--why were there no fingerprints found on the clip? Or if there WAS no clip found in the rifle, why are there no mentions made by ANYONE about separately finding a clip?

And why wasn't the rifle tested to see if it had been fired since its last cleaning?

All interesting stuff...Jack White, according to the footnotes, is already aware of this material; while I was aware of bits and pieces of it, I'd never seen ALL this material together in one place before.

What I found most interesting was the fact that, due to the design of the M-C, when the last shell in the clip is CHAMBERED, the clip disengages from the rifle

Sorry Mark!

That also happens to be another of those "Old Wives Tales" as regards the Carcano.

The Carcano utilizes a re-loadable clip.

Troops were issued boxes of ammunition which carried 20 rounds to the box, and had to keep their clips and reload from these boxes.

Were the clip to disengage automatically when the last round is chambered, then the operator of the rifle would have to remember to always reach under the bottom of the receiver and catch the clip as it "disengaged" and dropped out the bottom, or else risk it dropping into the dirt; mud; water; dark; etc; and thus losing his clips, which were completely necessary to fire the rifle at other than single load/single shot.

http://world.guns.ru/rifle/rfl21-e.htm

This site gives some pretty close up photo's of the weapon, as well as general reading information relative to models, etc. however, it too repeats the "wives tale" in regards to the clip automatically dropping out the bottom of the receiver.

If you will note, located within the trigger housing area, directly forward of the actual trigger, you will observe what would appear to be a "small button" which extrudes from the receiver portion where the ammunition & clip are housed and extends backward towards the trigger.

This small button operates a spring latch which catches the clip after the last round has been fired and the clip attempts to "drop" out of the receiver.

The clip will drop down to the extent that approximately 20% to 25% of the clip is actually extruding out of the bottom of the receiver, and there it will remain until such time as the small release button within the trigger housing is pushed, thus releasing the spring which catches and holds the clip.

In this manner, the shooter always has the capability to get one hand under the clip in order to catch it, prior to pushing the button and releasing the clip and having it completly drop out of the receiver housing.

In fact, I do believe that one of the photo's which was taken as the rifle was carried outside the TSDB, actually showed this small amount of the clip protruding out the bottom of the receiver.

So, just because someone claims something, and even when what one would consider to be reliable information is posted on internet sites, does not mean that it represents ALL of the facts related to how this weapon operates.

Remember! Repeating a "rumor" long enough may give it the semblance of fact and truth. But it does not make it so.

Tom

[Thomas H. Purvis]

As for our discussion of Mannlicher-Carcano rifles and clips [magazines], I found the following link [while seeking something else entirely]:

The Missing Clip

What I found most interesting was the fact that, due to the design of the M-C, when the last shell in the clip is CHAMBERED, the clip disengages from the rifle. Which would mean that, if the clip was reinserted into the rifle before the rifle was discovered--allegedly with the last round already in the chamber--why were there no fingerprints found on the clip? Or if there WAS no clip found in the rifle, why are there no mentions made by ANYONE about separately finding a clip?

And why wasn't the rifle tested to see if it had been fired since its last cleaning?

All interesting stuff...Jack White, according to the footnotes, is already aware of this material; while I was aware of bits and pieces of it, I'd never seen ALL this material together in one place before.

What I found most interesting was the fact that, due to the design of the M-C, when the last shell in the clip is CHAMBERED, the clip disengages from the rifle

Sorry Mark!

That also happens to be another of those "Old Wives Tales" as regards the Carcano.

The Carcano utilizes a re-loadable clip.

Troops were issued boxes of ammunition which carried 20 rounds to the box, and had to keep their clips and reload from these boxes.

Were the clip to disengage automatically when the last round is chambered, then the operator of the rifle would have to remember to always reach under the bottom of the receiver and catch the clip as it "disengaged" and dropped out the bottom, or else risk it dropping into the dirt; mud; water; dark; etc; and thus losing his clips, which were completely necessary to fire the rifle at other than single load/single shot.

http://world.guns.ru/rifle/rfl21-e.htm

This site gives some pretty close up photo's of the weapon, as well as general reading information relative to models, etc. however, it too repeats the "wives tale" in regards to the clip automatically dropping out the bottom of the receiver.

If you will note, located within the trigger housing area, directly forward of the actual trigger, you will observe what would appear to be a "small button" which extrudes from the receiver portion where the ammunition & clip are housed and extends backward towards the trigger.

This small button operates a spring latch which catches the clip after the last round has been fired and the clip attempts to "drop" out of the receiver.

The clip will drop down to the extent that approximately 20% to 25% of the clip is actually extruding out of the bottom of the receiver, and there it will remain until such time as the small release button within the trigger housing is pushed, thus releasing the spring which catches and holds the clip.

In this manner, the shooter always has the capability to get one hand under the clip in order to catch it, prior to pushing the button and releasing the clip and having it completly drop out of the receiver housing.

In fact, I do believe that one of the photo's which was taken as the rifle was carried outside the TSDB, actually showed this small amount of the clip protruding out the bottom of the receiver.

So, just because someone claims something, and even when what one would consider to be reliable information is posted on internet sites, does not mean that it represents ALL of the facts related to how this weapon operates.

Remember! Repeating a "rumor" long enough may give it the semblance of fact and truth. But it does not make it so.

Tom

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/factoid6.htm

Yet a little research would have turned up plenty of evidence that the clip was found with the rifle. Numerous still photos of Lt. J.C. Day taking the rifle out of the Depository show the clip in the rifle. One of them, shot by William G. Allen of the Dallas Times Herald, is shown at right, above.

And Day did indeed document the discovery of the clip. A report, dated 11/22/63 and signed by him, mentions one live round in the barrel, three spent hulls, and and notes that "THE CLIP IS STAMPED SMI 952." This is the notation on the clip that resides to this day in the National Archives in College Park, Maryland (see photo below).

Thus, while the paper trail may be less than complete, there simply is no doubt that the clip was in the rifle when it was recovered in the Depository, and no reason to doubt that it was in the rifle while Oswald was shooting it.