Of Slings & Swivels

Jack White · May 28, 2006

As for our discussion of Mannlicher-Carcano rifles and clips [magazines], I found the following link [while seeking something else entirely]:

The Missing Clip

What I found most interesting was the fact that, due to the design of the M-C, when the last shell in the clip is CHAMBERED, the clip disengages from the rifle. Which would mean that, if the clip was reinserted into the rifle before the rifle was discovered--allegedly with the last round already in the chamber--why were there no fingerprints found on the clip? Or if there WAS no clip found in the rifle, why are there no mentions made by ANYONE about separately finding a clip?

And why wasn't the rifle tested to see if it had been fired since its last cleaning?

All interesting stuff...Jack White, according to the footnotes, is already aware of this material; while I was aware of bits and pieces of it, I'd never seen ALL this material together in one place before.

What I found most interesting was the fact that, due to the design of the M-C, when the last shell in the clip is CHAMBERED, the clip disengages from the rifle

Sorry Mark!

That also happens to be another of those "Old Wives Tales" as regards the Carcano.

The Carcano utilizes a re-loadable clip.

Troops were issued boxes of ammunition which carried 20 rounds to the box, and had to keep their clips and reload from these boxes.

Were the clip to disengage automatically when the last round is chambered, then the operator of the rifle would have to remember to always reach under the bottom of the receiver and catch the clip as it "disengaged" and dropped out the bottom, or else risk it dropping into the dirt; mud; water; dark; etc; and thus losing his clips, which were completely necessary to fire the rifle at other than single load/single shot.

http://world.guns.ru/rifle/rfl21-e.htm

This site gives some pretty close up photo's of the weapon, as well as general reading information relative to models, etc. however, it too repeats the "wives tale" in regards to the clip automatically dropping out the bottom of the receiver.

If you will note, located within the trigger housing area, directly forward of the actual trigger, you will observe what would appear to be a "small button" which extrudes from the receiver portion where the ammunition & clip are housed and extends backward towards the trigger.

This small button operates a spring latch which catches the clip after the last round has been fired and the clip attempts to "drop" out of the receiver.

The clip will drop down to the extent that approximately 20% to 25% of the clip is actually extruding out of the bottom of the receiver, and there it will remain until such time as the small release button within the trigger housing is pushed, thus releasing the spring which catches and holds the clip.

In this manner, the shooter always has the capability to get one hand under the clip in order to catch it, prior to pushing the button and releasing the clip and having it completly drop out of the receiver housing.

In fact, I do believe that one of the photo's which was taken as the rifle was carried outside the TSDB, actually showed this small amount of the clip protruding out the bottom of the receiver.

So, just because someone claims something, and even when what one would consider to be reliable information is posted on internet sites, does not mean that it represents ALL of the facts related to how this weapon operates.

Remember! Repeating a "rumor" long enough may give it the semblance of fact and truth. But it does not make it so.

Tom

Tom...I find it odd that you say the empty clip REMAINS IN THE RIFLE. I have seen

Craig Roberts demonstrate that it usually falls out when the last round is chambered.

The website you recommended states:

"... Modified Mannlicher-type magazine held six rounds in en bloc clip. Empty clip is automatically ejected through the opening at the bottom of the magazine as the last round is chambered. Carcano clip is different from original Mannlicher clip by not having particular "top" and "bottom" sides, so it can be loaded into magazine either side down. Non-empty clip can be ejected from the magazine through the opening at the top of the receiver, with the bolt in open position, by depressing the clip catch inside the triggerguard. "

Craig is a leading authority on the rifle, and demonstrates its operation at symposiums.

He shows that A CLIP MUST BE USED to load cartridges, and that FEWER THAN SIX ROUNDS

CANNOT BE LOADED. The TSBD rifle "fired three rounds and the final round was chambered"

according to the official story. IF THE FINAL ROUND WAS CHAMBERED THE CLIP SHOULD HAVE

FALLEN OUT IN THE SNIPER NEST with the empty cartridges. Photos attached show no protruding

clip when Lt. Day picks up the rifle, but later a PROTRUDING clip as he carries the gun from

the building. In either event, the empty clip DOES NOT PROTRUDE FROM THE RIFLE UNLESS

IT IS DEFORMED AND STUCK. I prefer to go with the information of Craig Roberts.

For the official story to be so, two cartridges are unaccounted for. The clip initially had

to have SIX (it will not load with fewer), so the first two rounds had to have been fired

elsewhere.

Jack

PS...the clips are considered expendable. In combat, riflemen do NOT STOP TO RELOAD

CLIPS! They carry clips ALREADY LOADED with ammo. It would be silly to carry boxes

of bullets and have to stop during battle to reload an ejected clip!

Second PS...for three EMPTY casings to be found in the sniper nest, it was necessary

to eject them there. Ejecting the third one by working the bolt necessarily CHAMBERS

THE FINAL ROUND AND EJECTS THE CLIP. If there was only one remaining round, the

rifle should have NO CLIP. The clip cannot protrude from the bottom if rounds still are

in the clip. If there are no rounds in it, the clip falls out and does not ordinarily protrude.

Edited May 28, 2006 by Jack White

Thomas H. Purvis · May 28, 2006

As for our discussion of Mannlicher-Carcano rifles and clips [magazines], I found the following link [while seeking something else entirely]:

The Missing Clip

What I found most interesting was the fact that, due to the design of the M-C, when the last shell in the clip is CHAMBERED, the clip disengages from the rifle. Which would mean that, if the clip was reinserted into the rifle before the rifle was discovered--allegedly with the last round already in the chamber--why were there no fingerprints found on the clip? Or if there WAS no clip found in the rifle, why are there no mentions made by ANYONE about separately finding a clip?

And why wasn't the rifle tested to see if it had been fired since its last cleaning?

All interesting stuff...Jack White, according to the footnotes, is already aware of this material; while I was aware of bits and pieces of it, I'd never seen ALL this material together in one place before.

What I found most interesting was the fact that, due to the design of the M-C, when the last shell in the clip is CHAMBERED, the clip disengages from the rifle

Sorry Mark!

That also happens to be another of those "Old Wives Tales" as regards the Carcano.

The Carcano utilizes a re-loadable clip.

Troops were issued boxes of ammunition which carried 20 rounds to the box, and had to keep their clips and reload from these boxes.

Were the clip to disengage automatically when the last round is chambered, then the operator of the rifle would have to remember to always reach under the bottom of the receiver and catch the clip as it "disengaged" and dropped out the bottom, or else risk it dropping into the dirt; mud; water; dark; etc; and thus losing his clips, which were completely necessary to fire the rifle at other than single load/single shot.

http://world.guns.ru/rifle/rfl21-e.htm

This site gives some pretty close up photo's of the weapon, as well as general reading information relative to models, etc. however, it too repeats the "wives tale" in regards to the clip automatically dropping out the bottom of the receiver.

If you will note, located within the trigger housing area, directly forward of the actual trigger, you will observe what would appear to be a "small button" which extrudes from the receiver portion where the ammunition & clip are housed and extends backward towards the trigger.

This small button operates a spring latch which catches the clip after the last round has been fired and the clip attempts to "drop" out of the receiver.

The clip will drop down to the extent that approximately 20% to 25% of the clip is actually extruding out of the bottom of the receiver, and there it will remain until such time as the small release button within the trigger housing is pushed, thus releasing the spring which catches and holds the clip.

In this manner, the shooter always has the capability to get one hand under the clip in order to catch it, prior to pushing the button and releasing the clip and having it completly drop out of the receiver housing.

In fact, I do believe that one of the photo's which was taken as the rifle was carried outside the TSDB, actually showed this small amount of the clip protruding out the bottom of the receiver.

So, just because someone claims something, and even when what one would consider to be reliable information is posted on internet sites, does not mean that it represents ALL of the facts related to how this weapon operates.

Remember! Repeating a "rumor" long enough may give it the semblance of fact and truth. But it does not make it so.

Tom

Tom...I find it odd that you say the empty clip REMAINS IN THE RIFLE. I have seen

Craig Roberts demonstrate that it usually falls out when the last round is chambered.

The website you recommended states:

"... Modified Mannlicher-type magazine held six rounds in en bloc clip. Empty clip is automatically ejected through the opening at the bottom of the magazine as the last round is chambered. Carcano clip is different from original Mannlicher clip by not having particular "top" and "bottom" sides, so it can be loaded into magazine either side down. Non-empty clip can be ejected from the magazine through the opening at the top of the receiver, with the bolt in open position, by depressing the clip catch inside the triggerguard. "

Craig is a leading authority on the rifle, and demonstrates its operation at symposiums.

He shows that A CLIP MUST BE USED to load cartridges, and that FEWER THAN SIX ROUNDS

CANNOT BE LOADED. The TSBD rifle "fired three rounds and the final round was chambered"

according to the official story. IF THE FINAL ROUND WAS CHAMBERED THE CLIP SHOULD HAVE

FALLEN OUT IN THE SNIPER NEST with the empty cartridges. Photos attached show no protruding

clip when Lt. Day picks up the rifle, but later a PROTRUDING clip as he carries the gun from

the building. In either event, the empty clip DOES NOT PROTRUDE FROM THE RIFLE UNLESS

IT IS DEFORMED AND STUCK. I prefer to go with the information of Craig Roberts.

For the official story to be so, two cartridges are unaccounted for. The clip initially had

to have SIX (it will not load with fewer), so the first two rounds had to have been fired

elsewhere.

Jack

PS...the clips are considered expendable. In combat, riflemen do NOT STOP TO RELOAD

CLIPS! They carry clips ALREADY LOADED with ammo. It would be silly to carry boxes

of bullets and have to stop during battle to reload an ejected clip!

The "clip release" serves two functions.

1. It holds the clip "down", thus preventing it from riding upwards towards the bolt due to the pressure of the carrier spring as exerted onto the bottom round in the clip.

The clip (with any remaining rounds) can not be removed out of the weapon unless this clip release is pushed, thus releasing the latch mechanism.

2. In addition to this "latching" the clip down, the spring tension also pushes the clip release against the back side of the clip. And, under most normal circumstances, the spring pressure of pushing against the back side of the clip, maintains the clip in place, even after the last round has been chambered.

It is not "absolutely necessary" to push the clip release in order to manually extract the clip from the weapon.

However, failure to do so results in the clip being pulled across that portion of the clip release latch which is exerting pressure onto the back of the clip, and with continual usage, this wears the back side of the clip, as well as the clip release section.

I would assume that this is most probably why most of the Italian "SMI" clips were made of brass as opposed to steel. At least the brass clip wore more easily, thus creating less wear onto the clip release.

Again, in even an absolutely new weapon, the clip can be manually pulled/extracted, without pushing the clip release and relieving the pressure that it exerts.

Pushing the clip release will make the clip instantly drop out the bottom of the receiver housing.

In some cases where the weapon is extremely old, the wear on the bearing surface of the clip release as well as loss of strength to the spring of the release,, and potentially the backside of the actual clip, creates a condition in which the clip release does not exert adequate bearing surface pressure onto the back of the clip to hold it into the weapon.

In these cases, the clip will "fall" right through upon chambering of the final round.

I am of the opinion that this is where most got the idea that the clip "always" falls directly through the weapon when the last round is chambered.

As I have some excellent quality weapons, to include 91/38's in the 6.5mm as well as the 7.35mm, and these always hold the clip mechanism in place until such time as I either reach up and pull it out, or else push the clip release, it is obvious that this is a "by design" item in which the clip will not fall out unless the shooter either pulls on it directly or else pushes the clip release.

Lastly, I am reminded of the person on another talk show (alt.assassination jfk) who apparantly has never owned a Carcano, yet stated absolutely that the maximum number of rounds which the weapon could hold was 6.

I reminded him that FBI Agent Frazier stated that the weapon could hold one in the chamber and 6 in the clip, and that I had personally done this as well and was absolute in that it could be done, yet I am also just as certain that he continues to accept that it can not be done.

3-minutes ago, I got out my 6.5mm 91/38, and loaded a 4-round clip into it!

Thereafter, after running through the cycle of chambering and ejecting the rounds, the last round was chambered and the clip did not drop out of the weapon.

After having ejected the final round, I, as I long ago learned, pushed the clip release button, and the clip fell out the bottom of the rifle.

I am therefore sorry if others can not get 7-rounds into the weapon, when I was long ago taught by some pretty qualified persons how to deal with these old bolt actions weapons, and have little difficulty in getting a round in the chamber as well as the full 6-round clip into the weapon.

I am also sorry if Crag Roberts, or for that matter anyone else appears to be incapable of installing a clip which contains only 4 rounds into the weapon.

I just sat here and did it with mine.

And lastly, one could assume that the clip was installed with the full 6-rounds, with two rounds having been shot, and the remaining four rounds left in the weapon.------What a unique and novel idea!

Since you, as well as most others, are of the opinion that there were somewhere between 2 to 20 shooters in Dealy Plaza on 11/22/63, it is unlikely that you are now going to expend the time in gathering your own weapon and ammunition in order to determine the validity of anything which goes contrary to your concepts.

Tom

P.S. Still only a lone assassin, and the next time that you see Mr. Roberts, perhaps you should present him with the true facts as to the shot sequence and then ask exactly how difficult it would have been.

P.P.S. Just reloaded the weapon with a clip with four rounds-----still no trouble.

Obviously, I must be doing something wrong.

Jack White · May 28, 2006

Tom's sarcasm seems odd when the website HE recommended

contradicts him...

The website he recommended states:

"... Modified Mannlicher-type magazine held six rounds in en bloc clip. Empty clip is automatically ejected through the opening at the bottom of the magazine as the last round is chambered. Carcano clip is different from original Mannlicher clip by not having particular "top" and "bottom" sides, so it can be loaded into magazine either side down. Non-empty clip can be ejected from the magazine through the opening at the top of the receiver, with the bolt in open position, by depressing the clip catch inside the triggerguard. "

Craig Roberts, a decorated Vietnam sniper and professional

police officer probably knows as much as Tom about rifles.

He is an expert regarding the M-C rifle. Perhaps Tom knows

things Craig does not, like loading only four rounds in a

clip. Maybe the rifles are different. Craig's dropped the

clip after the final round was chambered; maybe Tom's

is a different model in which the clip must be manually

ejected. I am not a gun expert. I do not like guns. I consider

Craig Roberts an expert on the Manlicher-Carcano. I never

heard of Tom before joining this forum, even though he

accuses me of stealing research from him.

Jack

Thomas H. Purvis · May 28, 2006

Tom's sarcasm seems odd when the website HE recommended
contradicts him...

The website he recommended states:

"... Modified Mannlicher-type magazine held six rounds in en bloc clip. Empty clip is automatically ejected through the opening at the bottom of the magazine as the last round is chambered. Carcano clip is different from original Mannlicher clip by not having particular "top" and "bottom" sides, so it can be loaded into magazine either side down. Non-empty clip can be ejected from the magazine through the opening at the top of the receiver, with the bolt in open position, by depressing the clip catch inside the triggerguard. "

Craig Roberts, a decorated Vietnam sniper and professional

police officer probably knows as much as Tom about rifles.

He is an expert regarding the M-C rifle. Perhaps Tom knows

things Craig does not, like loading only four rounds in a

clip. Maybe the rifles are different. Craig's dropped the

clip after the final round was chambered; maybe Tom's

is a different model in which the clip must be manually

ejected. I am not a gun expert. I do not like guns. I consider

Craig Roberts an expert on the Manlicher-Carcano. I never

heard of Tom before joining this forum, even though he

accuses me of stealing research from him.

Jack

Actually Jack,

Not unlike the multiple assassin scenarios, Tom contradicted the website.

I have SIX (6) variations of the Carcano. The only one in which the clip litterally falls right through at times is one that was made in 1917, was at one time a long rifle which was cut down to a model 91/24 Carbine, and in which the carrier spring is gone and there is so much wear and "slop" in the bolt and every other part of it, that I would not even consider firing it.

A good look at the "groove" in the back side of the clip, where the portion of the clip spring fits against the clip backside and holds tension against the clip, until the clip spring is released, should tell someone about the intentions of this in the design of the weapon.

Lastly, your conscience it would appear has made you feel that I have stated that you "stole research".

I have stated AS FACT, and will continue to state AS FACT, that the portion of the Elm St. Survey Plat which you once posted, came from copies in my possession in which I platted the location of the first shot fired, and in which others were provided copies of, and apparantly now claim that it is some part of "their" original work.

And even that work is completely worthless as it claims that the Survey Parties had some indications of bullet strikes to the concrete curb of Elm St, when in fact I thereafter provided the information to substantuate that absolutely NO/NONE/ZERO/NATTA bit of survey work was done which even indicated any strikes to anything (curb or manhole cover) along Elm St. at any point and time during an entire sequence of various surveys and survey work.

The "Elms St. Bullet Marks to the Curb" is pure garbage!

Just like the "Six Groove Bullet"!

Jack White · May 28, 2006

"I have stated AS FACT, and will continue to state AS FACT, that the portion of the Elm St. Survey Plat which you once posted, came from copies in my possession in which I platted the location of the first shot fired, and in which others were provided copies of, and apparantly now claim that it is some part of "their" original work.

And even that work is completely worthless as it claims that the Survey Parties had some indications of bullet strikes to the concrete curb of Elm St, when in fact I thereafter provided the information to substantuate that absolutely NO/NONE/ZERO/NATTA bit of survey work was done which even indicated any strikes to anything (curb or manhole cover) along Elm St. at any point and time during an entire sequence of various surveys and survey work."

Did it ever occur to you that others have copies of the same plat? The

xerox copy I obtained from Jim Marrs was copied by him IN THREE PIECES

because of the large plat that Chester Breneman allowed Jim to xerox back

when Jim interviewed him for his newspaper story. I had to paste the

three xeroxes together to get a single plat. This was back in 1978, as

I recall. Jim Marrs and I had never heard of you. Jim got his copy from

Breneman, and I got mine from Jim. Maybe Breneman got HIS COPY

from you.

Attached is a partial image of Jim's story of his 1978 interview.

(I have no idea why part of the image is red and green; the original

that I posted was all black.)

This story appeared on the front page of the Fort Worth Star Telegram

in 1978, at the time Breneman let Jim copy the plat he and West made,

as described in the story. Did it ever occur to you that you are wrong?

This clipping supports Jim. There is nothing to support your claim!

Jack

Edited May 28, 2006 by Jack White

Thomas H. Purvis · May 28, 2006

There is nothing to support your claim!

Jack

No Jack, there is nothing to support "your" as well as other's claims as regards the bullet impact marks onto the curb of Elm St., as well as a copy of the survey plat having been in the Public Domain for as long as you and others claim.

Since the survey plat constitutes "New Information", I would assume that most are aware of the simple fact that it would have been long ago utilized, copied, published in various books; tabloids; conspiracy theories, etc; etc; etc;, had it been in the public domain for that long of time. (Since 1978 or whatever).

As far as Mr. West allowing a "part time" surveyor/Party Chief to have access to the JFK information survey and plats, then one would/should question exactly WHY? would this be allowed.

And, if one questions WHY? then they just may also question exactly WHY? it was that Mr. Breneman did not also copy the smaller Time/Life Survey Plat?; The smaller SS Survey Plat?; the various FBI Survey Plat's?:, the actual Survey Notes?:

Lastly Jack; it would be hoped that you are not of the opinion that I know so little as to not know how to leave a "trail" which is directly traceable back, directly to me, which also happens to have it's clues so scattered that virtually no one would ever think and/or recognize them.

Case in point, the small "x" which appears on the copy of the survey plat which you have posted.

As stated, this was created by the intersecting "arc" of a compass, which had as it's center, established and identifiable Survey Control Points as established by Mr. West/Survey Personnel during the Time/Life Survey as well as the later SS Survey of 12/5/63.

Nevertheless, even this does not constitute "proof".

It is the established point of JFK at/around Z-204/206 as established during the Time/Life Survey work, and thus transferred to the much larger WC Survey Plat in order to establish this location in relationship to what could be determined from the Time/Life survey work and review of the film, as opposed to what the WC had to say.

I might add, that this work also demonstrates that whoever is playing these games, also apparantly did not even have access to the SS and/or FBI survey plats which most definitely plat the impact point of the first shot at/around Z-208/210.

So Jack, as they say: "enquiring minds want to know".

So, would you and those who claim that this copy of the survey plat originated from some mythological meeting in 1978, like to explain the intersecting "arc/X" as shown on your posted copy of the plat, which happens to be located just/slightly past the (erroneously) marked street contour elevation 426 line?

Exactly why is it that mark appears, when ONLY ole know-nothing Tom has fully established that the first shot was fired at/around Z-204/206.

I just looked out here on this limb, and although there are many who would like to make an attempt to cut the limb off, I am nevertheless "Still Alone" out here.

And, loving every minute of it, I might add!

In regards to the "little x" mark on "your" survey plat. It would appear that you and others are no better at following the trails which I long ago left, then you are at following the the factual evidence in the JFK assassination.

Too much "smoke" in your eyes I would assume.

Now, back to the "X" Marks the Spot.

You were provided with "one" item which, if necessary, would establish the provenance of the copy of the survey plat which you have posted.

Actually, you were provided with more than "one", but not unlike the facts in the JFK assassination, they are directly before your eyes, yet hidden in plain sight.

I recalled, some time ago, I also posted my "Questionaire" as forwarded to the Attorney General of the US/FBI.

Despite what may be readily apparant, there was considerable thought which went into this document, which was forwarded to the Attorney General on September 6, 1994, as it was meant to serve several purposes.

In that regards, I am re-posting page# 2 of this Questionaire, as it relates to this topic of discussion.

If one will read; review; and compare item "m." of the questionare, then they will find reference to the little "x" mark as you and most are now aware is the topic of discussion.

Since the Time/Life Survey did not utilize any "Station Numbers", and the SS Survey of 12/5/63 did utilize Station Survey Footage numbers, yet this survey posted the impact point of the first shot at/around Z-208/210, then exactly HOW? and WHY? is there a little "x" mark on your copy of the Survey Plat, located well prior to this Z-208/210 mark? (paragraph "o" of the questionaire)

Might I recommend that you "back up" on your copy of the survey plat, to the 3+00 survey station point, measure a straight-distance to the "little x" located just past the 426 street elevation contour, and check the distance.

Since few would have access to all this, let me state that it is virtually, exactly 6 and one-half inches from 3+00 stationing to the little "x". Which on a scale of 1-inch = 10 feet, (scale of the WC Survey Plat), would equate to a distance of 65 feet between the two points.

Now! 3+00 (+) 65 =365, aka Station Number 3+65!

It is therefore no "coincidence" that paragraph "m" of the letter/Questionaire to the FBI, dated September 6, 1994, states: "plots the impact point of the first shot fired at approximate station 3+65 which also corresponds exactly with the location of President Kennedy at Z-frame# 204"

Tom

P.S. Jack, there are other items also, which will remain to be seen and/or found/ and/or revealed, as deemed necessary by myself.

P.P.S. You/They really need to go back and utililize some white-out and make the little "x" at station 3+65 disappear if you hope to pass this off as original work.

Not to mention the other items which I will "drag" out and point to, should it be required.

Edited May 28, 2006 by Thomas H. Purvis

Thomas H. Purvis · May 28, 2006

Jack;

Since, as either you and/or others claim, the WC Survey Plat was in the public domain as early as 1978, and being passed around amongst all of the "Big League" researchers of that period, then one just may ask exactly why persons were asking me for accurate information relative to the Survey Plat as late as 1994.

Here, we have one of the "GIANTS" if you will, yet in 1994, even he is unaware of the EXACT

elevation distance from the top of the concrete sidewalk to the window sill of the TSDB.

Not only that, he had absolutely no knowledge and/or understanding of the aspects of the phony WC assassination re-enactment which affected all aspects of the survey data.

Had everyone had access to the COMPLETE WC Survey Plat, then there would have been little misunderstandings relative to the height of the window sill of the TSDB, above the concrete, as well as why their "trig" did not work out.

Since all of this data is accurately platted and plotted and drawn onto the WC Survey Plat.

Tom

P.S. The elevation, as shown in two separate locations on the original WC Survey Plat, is 60.7 feet from top of concrete to window sill, NOT 60 feet.

The 60 feet happens to be the inaccurate measurement, as done by Chester Breneman, for the Time/Life Survey of 11/26/63, in which Mr. Breneman did not even carry his measurements out to the 0.1 of a foot which was standard proceedure in all survey work.

So, as of the date of Harrison Livingstone's letter, (07/19/94), much of the "Big Guns" of the JFK research community was still running around with cerebral rectal inversion; not gathering the exact facts; and had no ideas as to why their "trig" was not matching the works of Mr. West.

Which just may lead one to believe that Mr. West actual Survey Plat and the survey information, just may not have been out there floating around in the public domain.

Tom

P.S. They were also still chasing 6-groove bullets and probably Unicorns as well.

Mark Knight · May 28, 2006

All this discussion of the survey of Dealy Plaza, while interesting and CERTAINLY relevant to the shooting itself, is taking us far afield from a discussion of the rifle.

Tom, might I direct your attention back to my post #12 on this thread...I believe I spotlighted some questions raised by the information that appear to have gone unasked by investigators immediately after the assassination.

Thomas H. Purvis · May 28, 2006

All this discussion of the survey of Dealy Plaza, while interesting and CERTAINLY relevant to the shooting itself, is taking us far afield from a discussion of the rifle.
Tom, might I direct your attention back to my post #12 on this thread...I believe I spotlighted some questions raised by the information that appear to have gone unasked by investigators immediately after the assassination.

Mark;

Yes, we have strayed! Nevertheless, information; knowledge; and even a few facts are being thrown out for all to openly see and evaluate.

As to post# 12?-------------------???????-----Other than the fact that I would agree, but then again there is little new in the aspects that the WC and others approached their work with complete blinders on.

They "could" have also asked exactly where LHO came up with the shoulder holster strap sling which was placed onto the Carcano at some point after the photo which has a rope sling.

Especiall since this strap is an old Army Air Corps/Air Force issue strap which was designed to hold a shoulder holster for Army/AF pilots.

Not like everyone just has one of these things laying around!

Certainly took me a while to also find one of them as well.

So, chalk up more "non-asked" questions as relates to where the ammo and clip came from, where did the sling strap come from; who else was in the business of selling these rifles and scopes; how accurate was the information related to another dealer having bore-sighted a Carcano for a "Oswald", etc; etc; etc.

Most failures of which it would appear were intentional, and by design.

And I might further add, we do not know exactly how much may have been asked, and exactly how many of these documents still remain to be released.

Such as the available information relative to the manufacture and purchase of the 6-million rounds or so of WCC 6.5mm Carcano Ammunition.

In that regards, there are more than sufficient FACTUAL leads which need to be followed before the trails are too cold and gone, without wasting time chasing such items as the "ammo clip"; how many rounds can a Carcano take; how many rounds can a Carcano be loaded with; how many rounds was the Carcano loaded with; as well as the virtually non-provable aspect of the photo of the barrel band/sling swivel of the LHO photo holding the rifle which at best merely demonstrates different barrel bands/sling swivels, which COULD have been easily changed out at the same time that he was shopping for ammo; clips; and slings.

Tom

Jack White · May 29, 2006

Tom erroneously stated:

"Jack;

Since, as either you and/or others claim, the WC Survey Plat was in the public domain as early as 1978, and being passed around amongst all of the "Big League" researchers of that period, then one just may ask exactly why persons were asking me for accurate information relative to the Survey Plat as late as 1994."

I have never claimed that the West/Breneman plat was public domain. What I said was that

Breneman allowed Marrs to xerox it. Jim gave me xerox copies. This does not make it

public domain. I know of nobody else who claims it was public domain in 1978. I do not know

the identity of the "big league" researchers who passed it around. My copy remained in a box

till about 1993, when the subject came up on the internet. I have no idea why you were being

asked about the plat in 1994, nor by whom. I suppose the fact that you are a surveyor may

have prompted questions.

Jack

Thomas H. Purvis · May 30, 2006

All this discussion of the survey of Dealy Plaza, while interesting and CERTAINLY relevant to the shooting itself, is taking us far afield from a discussion of the rifle.
Tom, might I direct your attention back to my post #12 on this thread...I believe I spotlighted some questions raised by the information that appear to have gone unasked by investigators immediately after the assassination.

And, in addition to asking these questions, the FBI could have at least taken the time to attempt to locate exactly who it was that had been firing a 7.35mm Carcano out at a gravel pit (if recalled correctly); left the empty box in which the cartridges came in, as well as who was selling such weapons around the Dallas and/or New Orlean area.

Jack White · May 31, 2006

As for our discussion of Mannlicher-Carcano rifles and clips [magazines], I found the following link [while seeking something else entirely]:

The Missing Clip

What I found most interesting was the fact that, due to the design of the M-C, when the last shell in the clip is CHAMBERED, the clip disengages from the rifle. Which would mean that, if the clip was reinserted into the rifle before the rifle was discovered--allegedly with the last round already in the chamber--why were there no fingerprints found on the clip? Or if there WAS no clip found in the rifle, why are there no mentions made by ANYONE about separately finding a clip?

And why wasn't the rifle tested to see if it had been fired since its last cleaning?

All interesting stuff...Jack White, according to the footnotes, is already aware of this material; while I was aware of bits and pieces of it, I'd never seen ALL this material together in one place before.

What I found most interesting was the fact that, due to the design of the M-C, when the last shell in the clip is CHAMBERED, the clip disengages from the rifle

Sorry Mark!

That also happens to be another of those "Old Wives Tales" as regards the Carcano.

The Carcano utilizes a re-loadable clip.

Troops were issued boxes of ammunition which carried 20 rounds to the box, and had to keep their clips and reload from these boxes.

Were the clip to disengage automatically when the last round is chambered, then the operator of the rifle would have to remember to always reach under the bottom of the receiver and catch the clip as it "disengaged" and dropped out the bottom, or else risk it dropping into the dirt; mud; water; dark; etc; and thus losing his clips, which were completely necessary to fire the rifle at other than single load/single shot.

http://world.guns.ru/rifle/rfl21-e.htm

This site gives some pretty close up photo's of the weapon, as well as general reading information relative to models, etc. however, it too repeats the "wives tale" in regards to the clip automatically dropping out the bottom of the receiver.

If you will note, located within the trigger housing area, directly forward of the actual trigger, you will observe what would appear to be a "small button" which extrudes from the receiver portion where the ammunition & clip are housed and extends backward towards the trigger.

This small button operates a spring latch which catches the clip after the last round has been fired and the clip attempts to "drop" out of the receiver.

The clip will drop down to the extent that approximately 20% to 25% of the clip is actually extruding out of the bottom of the receiver, and there it will remain until such time as the small release button within the trigger housing is pushed, thus releasing the spring which catches and holds the clip.

In this manner, the shooter always has the capability to get one hand under the clip in order to catch it, prior to pushing the button and releasing the clip and having it completly drop out of the receiver housing.

In fact, I do believe that one of the photo's which was taken as the rifle was carried outside the TSDB, actually showed this small amount of the clip protruding out the bottom of the receiver.

So, just because someone claims something, and even when what one would consider to be reliable information is posted on internet sites, does not mean that it represents ALL of the facts related to how this weapon operates.

Remember! Repeating a "rumor" long enough may give it the semblance of fact and truth. But it does not make it so.

Tom

Tom...I find it odd that you say the empty clip REMAINS IN THE RIFLE. I have seen

Craig Roberts demonstrate that it usually falls out when the last round is chambered.

The website you recommended states:

"... Modified Mannlicher-type magazine held six rounds in en bloc clip. Empty clip is automatically ejected through the opening at the bottom of the magazine as the last round is chambered. Carcano clip is different from original Mannlicher clip by not having particular "top" and "bottom" sides, so it can be loaded into magazine either side down. Non-empty clip can be ejected from the magazine through the opening at the top of the receiver, with the bolt in open position, by depressing the clip catch inside the triggerguard. "

Craig is a leading authority on the rifle, and demonstrates its operation at symposiums.

He shows that A CLIP MUST BE USED to load cartridges, and that FEWER THAN SIX ROUNDS

CANNOT BE LOADED. The TSBD rifle "fired three rounds and the final round was chambered"

according to the official story. IF THE FINAL ROUND WAS CHAMBERED THE CLIP SHOULD HAVE

FALLEN OUT IN THE SNIPER NEST with the empty cartridges. Photos attached show no protruding

clip when Lt. Day picks up the rifle, but later a PROTRUDING clip as he carries the gun from

the building. In either event, the empty clip DOES NOT PROTRUDE FROM THE RIFLE UNLESS

IT IS DEFORMED AND STUCK. I prefer to go with the information of Craig Roberts.

For the official story to be so, two cartridges are unaccounted for. The clip initially had

to have SIX (it will not load with fewer), so the first two rounds had to have been fired

elsewhere.

Jack

PS...the clips are considered expendable. In combat, riflemen do NOT STOP TO RELOAD

CLIPS! They carry clips ALREADY LOADED with ammo. It would be silly to carry boxes

of bullets and have to stop during battle to reload an ejected clip!

The "clip release" serves two functions.

1. It holds the clip "down", thus preventing it from riding upwards towards the bolt due to the pressure of the carrier spring as exerted onto the bottom round in the clip.

The clip (with any remaining rounds) can not be removed out of the weapon unless this clip release is pushed, thus releasing the latch mechanism.

2. In addition to this "latching" the clip down, the spring tension also pushes the clip release against the back side of the clip. And, under most normal circumstances, the spring pressure of pushing against the back side of the clip, maintains the clip in place, even after the last round has been chambered.

It is not "absolutely necessary" to push the clip release in order to manually extract the clip from the weapon.

However, failure to do so results in the clip being pulled across that portion of the clip release latch which is exerting pressure onto the back of the clip, and with continual usage, this wears the back side of the clip, as well as the clip release section.

I would assume that this is most probably why most of the Italian "SMI" clips were made of brass as opposed to steel. At least the brass clip wore more easily, thus creating less wear onto the clip release.

Again, in even an absolutely new weapon, the clip can be manually pulled/extracted, without pushing the clip release and relieving the pressure that it exerts.

Pushing the clip release will make the clip instantly drop out the bottom of the receiver housing.

In some cases where the weapon is extremely old, the wear on the bearing surface of the clip release as well as loss of strength to the spring of the release,, and potentially the backside of the actual clip, creates a condition in which the clip release does not exert adequate bearing surface pressure onto the back of the clip to hold it into the weapon.

In these cases, the clip will "fall" right through upon chambering of the final round.

I am of the opinion that this is where most got the idea that the clip "always" falls directly through the weapon when the last round is chambered.

As I have some excellent quality weapons, to include 91/38's in the 6.5mm as well as the 7.35mm, and these always hold the clip mechanism in place until such time as I either reach up and pull it out, or else push the clip release, it is obvious that this is a "by design" item in which the clip will not fall out unless the shooter either pulls on it directly or else pushes the clip release.

Lastly, I am reminded of the person on another talk show (alt.assassination jfk) who apparantly has never owned a Carcano, yet stated absolutely that the maximum number of rounds which the weapon could hold was 6.

I reminded him that FBI Agent Frazier stated that the weapon could hold one in the chamber and 6 in the clip, and that I had personally done this as well and was absolute in that it could be done, yet I am also just as certain that he continues to accept that it can not be done.

3-minutes ago, I got out my 6.5mm 91/38, and loaded a 4-round clip into it!

Thereafter, after running through the cycle of chambering and ejecting the rounds, the last round was chambered and the clip did not drop out of the weapon.

After having ejected the final round, I, as I long ago learned, pushed the clip release button, and the clip fell out the bottom of the rifle.

I am therefore sorry if others can not get 7-rounds into the weapon, when I was long ago taught by some pretty qualified persons how to deal with these old bolt actions weapons, and have little difficulty in getting a round in the chamber as well as the full 6-round clip into the weapon.

I am also sorry if Crag Roberts, or for that matter anyone else appears to be incapable of installing a clip which contains only 4 rounds into the weapon.

I just sat here and did it with mine.

And lastly, one could assume that the clip was installed with the full 6-rounds, with two rounds having been shot, and the remaining four rounds left in the weapon.------What a unique and novel idea!

Since you, as well as most others, are of the opinion that there were somewhere between 2 to 20 shooters in Dealy Plaza on 11/22/63, it is unlikely that you are now going to expend the time in gathering your own weapon and ammunition in order to determine the validity of anything which goes contrary to your concepts.

Tom

P.S. Still only a lone assassin, and the next time that you see Mr. Roberts, perhaps you should present him with the true facts as to the shot sequence and then ask exactly how difficult it would have been.

P.P.S. Just reloaded the weapon with a clip with four rounds-----still no trouble.

Obviously, I must be doing something wrong.

I told Craig about Mr. Purvis and invited Craig to join the forum and

respond to Mr. Purvis' claims. Here is Craig's reply:

QUOTE, FROM CRAIG ROBERTS:

Jack,

I have to leave shortly so do not have time to join the forum at the moment.

You can cut and paste my response here:

I have owned and shot and demonstrated sereral Mannlicher-Carcano carbines

and rifles. The enbloc clip is designed to hold six rounds, and can be

loaded with less if the shooter takes time to insert the clip carefully so

that it does not misalign the cartridges or that the cartridge bases do not

come disengaged from the slot retainer at the base of the clip.

Italians received the ammunition in bandoleers, NOT "20 round boxes." They

also had 24 round boxes (4 clips in a box) in the system that they could

reload bandoleers or leather ammo pouches with. They seldom "reloaded" the

clips, and never in combat, any more than our GIs tried to pick up and

reload M1 Garand clips.

The rifle, if not worn out, and the clip, if not deformed, will always fall

out of the clip discharge slot when the last round is chambered. A deformed

clip (lips expanded due to being reloaded too many times) might stick, but

would be immediately pushed out when the next full clip is inserted.

Attempting to load six-plus-one can be difficult. All of the Carcanos I had

did not want to override the cartridge base and the bolt would jam before

being locked into battery (closed completely). And why would anyone want

to? The six rounds were sufficient and easily and quickly reloaded.

Also, I have copies of the original evidence sheets from TDPS that show what

was found on the Sixth Floor. They show TWO expended rounds, and one live

round in the chamber. NOT Three. The same documents, which I have presented

at various JFK seminars and Lancer, were changed and show THREE empty

cartridges in the Warren Report. The WC docs were altered from the original.

(Anyone want to bet $1000 that this did not happen? I'd be glad to show the

documents). No clip was listed as found Also, the photos taken of the

evidence at DPD show a rifle, two empty cartridges, one live round and one

S&W pistol. I've shown these at seminars as well.

As for the shot sequence, I list what happened and how many shots were fired

and where from by the physical evidence, the eye witness accounts and the

ballistics. There were at least six rounds fired. For more on this see my

chapter in my book "Kill Zone: A Sniper Looks at Dealey Plaza."

And finally, if there was a lone shooter from the rear, why did Kennedy's

head show being hit from the front, and all the damage showing a frontal

shot? All this "Jet Effect" crap is just that. Those morons who say that a

person's head will jerk toward the incoming shot due to pressure build up

and a "jet effect" are full of Water Buffalo Excrement. They have never shot

anyone in the head. I have. I KNOW what happens. Put a canteloupe on a

fence post, hit it with a ball bat, then tell me it attacks the bat.

I have also issued challenges to those out there who say that Oswald could

have fired three shots in 5.6 seconds with two hits from a high to low angle

on a moving target that was going away from him with a rifle with a

non-zeroed scope with loose base etc. etc. to let me set up a range and let

them try. Oswald was no big shooter. I'm a friggin' well known rifle and

pistol shot and teach combat shooting, SWAT team snipers, and rifle

marksmanship. I tried to do it for a Japanese film company and the ONLY time

I got close to shooting within the time limit with two head shots at 88

yards was with my Remington 700 .308 police sniper rifle.

I've found that all this billious BS about lone nut shot sequences,

possibilities, and what happened to make Oswald the lone shooter is normally

generated by arm chair "experts" who read a few books, or have an old rifle

in the closet that they play with. None of them have ever fired one in

combat, taken aim at a live human being, and squeezed the trigger. I've run

into several of these guys who have challenged me with their theories, but

they don't understand that the two things involved are the mechancs AND the

psychology. A lot of people buy rifles and go hunting and for the first time

can't shoot the deer. They have a psychological block known as "Buck Fever."

Oswald was very high strung, and after taking a shot a General Walker, could

not sleep for two days and was nervous as a whore in church. This guy is

going to fire a string of shots at the president on his lunch hour between

bites of chicken? Gimme a break.

The Xray photos show hundreds of metal fragments (drops of mercury) in his

brain. I know how that happened. Let the lone nutters explain that.

Craig Roberts

LtCol. IN, USAR, Ret.

Tulsa PD, Ret.

Cedar Creek Firearms Training Academy

www.riflewarrior.com

Jack White · May 31, 2006