How many shots fired?

[Scott G. Edwards]

Almost every time I pick up a book about the assassination I find different views concerning the number of shots that were fired at the Presidential limo on November 22, 1963.

My personel opinion is that there were 9 shots fired, the first was a miss that hit just behind the limo as it came into the kill zone, then there were four hits inside the limo one of which caused the hole in the windshield then #6 which hit the trim around the windshield #7 hit the curb #8 hit the street in front of the limo causing the wound to James Tague and #9 hit the grass near a manhole cover.

If there is any further evidence of other shots please enlighten me.

I would really appreciate a consensus of opinions in this matter and I look forward to your answers.

Thanks, Scott

[Lee Forman]

Hello Scott.

I tried to puzzle over that many times. Truth be told, the best I could come up with was a range. I don't have the references handy - would need to do a bit of work to find them all - Warren Report, HSCA, etc. However I came up with a range of 9 - 14 once. Part of the trouble comes from trying to ascertain as to whether or not some of the 'evidence' [if you can call it that] may be redundant.

For example - if Jim Hicks was correct, then one of the shots winged a traffic sign - which may have been the Route 77? Sign attached to the Stemmons Sign. That could correlate with a shooter in the Nix Classic location for the throat - a botched shot which went on to strike Kennedy in the throat - hence the mystery about the small entry wound. Or not. The throat wound may have simply been a .22.

Here's a few from memory:

- 2 furrows in the grass across from the stairs on the south side of Elm - may have been skull fragments.

- .22 lodged behind Kennedy's ear.

- Shot to Connally in the chest -- or back.

- Shot to Connally wrist/thigh.

- Hole in floor pan of Lincoln which may be related to another shot?

- Shot to curb close to Jean Hill and Mary Moorman which may have been the continuation of the front temple shot fired from behind the fence. See Hill's Warren testinmony.

- Dent in chrome which may or may not have been associated with the occiput.

- 'Through-and-through' hole in windshield which may or may not have been associated with a DalTex miss to the curb at Main which resulted in a chip of concrete flying almost 25 feet to strike Tague's cheek.

- The alleged .45 which clanged off one of the motorcop's fenders after striking Elm [HSCA I think as reference?]

- The female witness [aside from Holland, name forgotten at the moment] who claimed to have seen a round strike Elm - same round? Warren Report?

- Holland and strike to Elm.

- Crack in windshield and possibly rearview mirror.

- The Kennedy head wounds - of which it's my impression that there were 3 - occiput, front temple, side entry.

- Kennedy back wound.

- The .45 round recovered by the mystery man.

- Maybe a hit to the side of the Lincoln - I never read that anywhere - just something I had heard and have no idea as to it's validity. Driver's side door, close to the bottom of the frame.

Edited - the one that kicked up the grass on the South side of Elm which may or may not have been related to the mystery man .45 or the furrows in the grass previously mentioned - Warren Report for that one - drawing a blank on the witness name.

- Missed the shot that created the striation in the concrete by the manhole cover.

- Plus worth mentioning is perhaps the round recovered from one of the nearby office building rooftops.

- Gary Mack informed me that the alleged strike to the sidewalk on the north side of Elm was a mark that predated the assassination.

Here's a few references, taken from 'The Guns of Dealey Plaza'

http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_i...ue/guns_dp.html

Deputy Sheriff Craig claimed a .45 calibre slug was found in Dealey Plaza by government authorities. Some researchers believe that FBI agent Buddy Walthers was photographed picking up a .45 calibre shell on the opposite side of the grassy knoll just off Elm street. In August of 1978 the HSCA received a phone call from Charles Rodgers of Lake Dallas, Texas, who was present in Dealey Plaza during the assassination with a friend Mike Nally. Nally's uncle, who was a motorcycle policeman in the motorcade, told his nephew Mike that when the shots were fired he heard a clanging noise on the fender of his motorcycle. When he looked down he saw a .45 caliber slug roll off into the street. The policeman was unable to stop and investigate since he was part of the motorcade that began to speed toward the hospital. Rodgers said that Mike Nally told him that his uncle had instructed them not to mention the story about the .45 calibre slug. The HSCA was unable to locate Mike Nally or even identify the name of Nally's uncle. [95] Dallas policeman Starvis Ellis, who rode a motorcycle 100 to 125 feet in front of the presidential limousine, saw debris come up from the ground at a nearby curb when he looked back toward Kennedy's car. [96]

Can't help but wonder if that last one is synonymous with the shot that hit close to Jean Hill.

Mrs. HILL - Then, he asked me I was asked did I know that a bullet struck at my feet and I said, "No; I didn't." And he said, "What do you think that dust was?" And I said, "I didn't see any dust." And I told Mark Lane that the Times Herald did run a picture in the paper of a concrete scar where a bullet had hit right where we were standing, which is evident to anybody that had an issue of the Times Herald.

Mr. SPECTER - Did you see that concrete?

Mrs. HILL - I didn't go back down there.

Mr. SPECTER - Do you know whether or not a bullet did hit that concrete?

Mrs. HILL - As I say, I saw the picture in the newspaper.

This is unfortunate, as it is my impression that Jean Hill is confusing the photo of the area some 100 feet closer to the underpass - the concrete at the manhole cover with the Motorcop looking towards the TSBD, with the area where she was standing.

Anyway - it was fun to put that all in one place. I can probably find the other references if need be.

Edited June 2, 2006 by Lee Forman

[Lee Forman]

Mrs. BAKER. No; I couldn't see the sign because I was angled--we were stepping out in the street then and it was approximately along in here, I presume, the first sign--I don't know which one it is, but I saw the bullet hit on down this way, I guess, right at the sign, angling out.

Mr. LIEBELER. You think the bullet hit the street, only it was farther out in the street?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Even though you couldn't see the sign, you could see this thing hit the street near the sign?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. It appears to me from looking at Commission Exhibit No. 354, that you can in fact make out where the signs are located along the side of the road and let's see if these do look like the signs. Now, as you come down Elm Street past the place you were standing going toward the triple underpass, there is a tree here on this little grassy triangular spot that is on the side of Elm Street toward the Texas School Book Depository Building, right on Dealey Plaza here by this concrete structure. Then, after the tree, going on down toward the triple underpass, it appears in the aerial photograph--a spot that looks like a sign or a shadow--it looks like a sign to me.

Mrs. BAKER. There is a sign there.

Mr. LIEBELER. And then there's another sign farther on down there.

Mrs. BAKER. This was a big sign here and there was a small one here.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you think that it was approximately near the first sign?

Mrs. BAKER. As I can remember, it was.

Mr. LIEBELER. As you went down Elm Street that you saw this thing hit the street--what did it look like when you saw it?

Mrs. BAKER. Well, as I said, I thought it was a firecracker. It looked just like you could see the sparks from it and I just thought it was a firecracker and I was thinking that there was somebody was fixing to get in a lot of trouble and we thought the kids or whoever threw it were down below or standing near the underpass or back up here by the sign.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would they have been as far down as the underpass or somewhere near the sign to have thrown a firecracker in the street?

Mrs. BAKER. It was near the signs.

Mr. LIEBELER. How close to the curb on Elm Street was this thing you saw

hit; do you remember? It would have been on the curb side near the side away from the Texas School Book Depository Building on the opposite side of the street; is that right?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How close to the opposite curb do you think it was?

Mrs. BAKER. It was approximately in the middle of the lane I couldn't be quite sure, but I thought it was in the middle or somewhere along in there could even be wrong about that but I could have sworn it that day.

Mr. LIEBELER. You thought it was sort of toward the middle of the lane?

Mrs. BAKER. Toward the middle of the lane.

Mr. LIEBELER. Of the left-hand lane going toward the underpass; is that correct?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where was the thing that you saw hit the street in relation to the President's car? I mean, was it in front of the car, behind his car, by the side of his car or was it close to the car?

Mrs. BAKER. I thought it was--well--behind it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Had the car already gone by when you saw this thing hit in the street?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

I may be wrong on Holland. I was pretty sure it was one of the witnesses from the top of the underpass that also saw sparks - can't seem to find the reference. This round seen by Mrs Baker could also be connected to the curb strike by Jean Hill and Mary Moorman.

[Scott G. Edwards]

Mrs. BAKER. No; I couldn't see the sign because I was angled--we were stepping out in the street then and it was approximately along in here, I presume, the first sign--I don't know which one it is, but I saw the bullet hit on down this way, I guess, right at the sign, angling out.

Mr. LIEBELER. You think the bullet hit the street, only it was farther out in the street?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Even though you couldn't see the sign, you could see this thing hit the street near the sign?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. It appears to me from looking at Commission Exhibit No. 354, that you can in fact make out where the signs are located along the side of the road and let's see if these do look like the signs. Now, as you come down Elm Street past the place you were standing going toward the triple underpass, there is a tree here on this little grassy triangular spot that is on the side of Elm Street toward the Texas School Book Depository Building, right on Dealey Plaza here by this concrete structure. Then, after the tree, going on down toward the triple underpass, it appears in the aerial photograph--a spot that looks like a sign or a shadow--it looks like a sign to me.

Mrs. BAKER. There is a sign there.

Mr. LIEBELER. And then there's another sign farther on down there.

Mrs. BAKER. This was a big sign here and there was a small one here.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you think that it was approximately near the first sign?

Mrs. BAKER. As I can remember, it was.

Mr. LIEBELER. As you went down Elm Street that you saw this thing hit the street--what did it look like when you saw it?

Mrs. BAKER. Well, as I said, I thought it was a firecracker. It looked just like you could see the sparks from it and I just thought it was a firecracker and I was thinking that there was somebody was fixing to get in a lot of trouble and we thought the kids or whoever threw it were down below or standing near the underpass or back up here by the sign.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would they have been as far down as the underpass or somewhere near the sign to have thrown a firecracker in the street?

Mrs. BAKER. It was near the signs.

Mr. LIEBELER. How close to the curb on Elm Street was this thing you saw

hit; do you remember? It would have been on the curb side near the side away from the Texas School Book Depository Building on the opposite side of the street; is that right?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How close to the opposite curb do you think it was?

Mrs. BAKER. It was approximately in the middle of the lane I couldn't be quite sure, but I thought it was in the middle or somewhere along in there could even be wrong about that but I could have sworn it that day.

Mr. LIEBELER. You thought it was sort of toward the middle of the lane?

Mrs. BAKER. Toward the middle of the lane.

Mr. LIEBELER. Of the left-hand lane going toward the underpass; is that correct?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where was the thing that you saw hit the street in relation to the President's car? I mean, was it in front of the car, behind his car, by the side of his car or was it close to the car?

Mrs. BAKER. I thought it was--well--behind it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Had the car already gone by when you saw this thing hit in the street?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

I may be wrong on Holland. I was pretty sure it was one of the witnesses from the top of the underpass that also saw sparks - can't seem to find the reference. This round seen by Mrs Baker could also be connected to the curb strike by Jean Hill and Mary Moorman.

Thank you so much Lee for your input in this matter, to be quite honest I completely forgot about the sign shot and of course I should have remembered it because if I'm not mistaken they removed that sign very shortly after the 22nd.

Some of the other testimony was quite interesting i.e. Gov. Connally said "Then a flurry of bullets came into the car" kind of unusual don't you think?

Have any of these other bullets ever been seen again after they were found?

I find the .45 to be quite an interesting find, it's very loud and in most cases somewhat difficult to handle accurately, not something I would expect to find at such a scene as this one unless it eminated from return fire from military which I don't think happened...

Have you read the findings concerning blood spatter by Sherry Guetierez {My spelling} if I remember correctly she thinks there was a shot from the Postal Facility or in that direction anyway, she is planning a book that may be coming out soon and it sounds like it may be very informative concerning blood spatter evidence.

Thanks again Lee and I am really looking forward to seeing other responses to this, Scott

[James Richards]

What is also interesting to note is that early teletype reports were saying that it was automatic gunfire.

James

[John Dolva]

What is also interesting to note is that early teletype reports were saying that it was automatic gunfire.

James

Lee, that may be RR Carr saying he saw grass kick up south of Elm. Do you know where 'chrome was dented' and where on footwell hole was? I've never heard this mentioned before, so I'm curious to find what looks like two dents on the lining of the inside of the Limo on the panelbetween the rear seat and the rear door, near the door opening on the right side (Kennedy's right). Perhaps if someone has a good quality copy of this part of the limousine it could be posted for checking? (Richard, check out the new photo section of the MSC files, some of the (quality) mugshots may be of interest.Try e as search for most common letter and you get about 1000 photos toscroll through, each with details and links to relevant documents such as names)

Edited June 3, 2006 by John Dolva

[James Richards]

John,

I am probably showing my complete ignorance here, but what are the MSC files? Do you have a link handy?

Cheers,

James

[John Dolva]

[ Mississippi Sovereignty Commission files

http://www.mdah.state.ms.us/arlib/contents/er/sovcom/

( from topic:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...opic=5857&st=75 ) ]