Fingerprint Data

[Duke Lane]

When the "sniper's nest" boxes were checked for fingerprints, a number of "unidentified" (as differs from "unidentifiable?") prints turned up on the boxes. The FBI requested that all TSBD employees submit fingerprint samples (presumably for elimination purposes), which they did. Roy Truly, however, who was not kindly disposed toward this evidence-gathering from innocent people, declined to allow two employees to be printed. I had presumed those to have been himself and his boss, but am not confident of that.

Does anyone know /a/ which of the 75 TSBD employees were not fingerprinted, /b/ what the disposition of those prints collected was (i.e., became CEs, CDs, FBI files, etc.), /c/ if that data is available today and, if so, from where (file IDs helpful), and /d/ what data (images) exists of ALL of the prints found on the boxes, whether identified, identifiable, eliminated or not, and if so, where they can be obtained.

Along those lines - although not the primary purpose I'm interested in this info for - does anyone know where one might obtain the print supposedly belonging to Mac Wallace, and/or Wallace's own prints?

[J. Raymond Carroll]

When the "sniper's nest" boxes were checked for fingerprints, a number of "unidentified" (as differs from "unidentifiable?") prints turned up on the boxes.

A researcher named James (Jim) Olmstead has been working on the fingerprint evidence for years, has consulted numerous experts, etc. You could probably find out a great deal by reading his postings on the McAdams forum. Mr. Olmstead has a reputation for being very generous towards fellow researchers.

I have been meaning to sit down and study Olmstead's work, but just can't seem to find the time. I hope you will share your discoveries with the forum.

[Dawn Meredith]

[quote name='Duke Lane' date='Jun 12 2006, 10:26 PM' post='65234']

Along those lines - although not the primary purpose I'm interested in this info for - does anyone know where one might obtain the print supposedly belonging to Mac Wallace, and/or Wallace's own prints?

Duke,

This has been discussed here on the forum in great length. Including several of my own posts. You could try going thru the different pages of threads... I don't have time at the moment to go into the full explanation (and I did so in a previous post) but Mac Wallace's prints are virtually impossible to obtain now. It took J Harrison great effort to get them in 97, then Glen Sample was able to do so and I was told that because the officer he had (in California) obtained the prints without a case to which to accompany the prints TX Dept of Public Safety then put a lid on it. I know that Nathan Darby tried himself to get a set from DPS an was unsuccessful.

Some have posted here that this should be like getting a copy of court record-which are public documents, but this is not the case. When Nathan was unable he asked for my help and I asked the assistance of a DA with whom I work. Soon's this DA learned I had no personal case to attach to my request he told me there was nothing I could do. So I told him the truth, that it involved the assassination, and I told him of Nathan's dilemma (his file was stolen from his home) but the DA said the only way he could request prints on someone is thru a case he had.

I suspect also, in THIS case-it being Malcolm Wallace- the complications are much more than this explanation allows for.

Dawn

[Duke Lane]

When the "sniper's nest" boxes were checked for fingerprints, a number of "unidentified" (as differs from "unidentifiable?") prints turned up on the boxes.

A researcher named James (Jim) Olmstead has been working on the fingerprint evidence for years, has consulted numerous experts, etc. You could probably find out a great deal by reading his postings on the McAdams forum. Mr. Olmstead has a reputation for being very generous towards fellow researchers.

I have been meaning to sit down and study Olmstead's work, but just can't seem to find the time. I hope you will share your discoveries with the forum.

Thanks, Ray ... tho', if I found his posts, he doesn't seem as generous with his opinion of those terrible CTers!

[Steve Thomas]

Duke,

Does anyone know /a/ which of the 75 TSBD employees were not fingerprinted, /b/ what the disposition of those prints collected was (i.e., became CEs, CDs, FBI files, etc.), /c/ if that data is available today and, if so, from where (file IDs helpful), and /d/ what data (images) exists of ALL of the prints found on the boxes, whether identified, identifiable, eliminated or not, and if so, where they can be obtained.

You can get a list of the employees who were fingerprinted from 26H beginning at page 799

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...2&relPageId=835

I like using this site because you can blow up the magnification of a page. It makes it much easier to read.

I guess you could compare that against a list of all the employees and determine who was not fingerprinted.

The list of TSBD employees is on pages 802 and 803 I think. In the back and forth between Hoover and Rankin, there is also a list of the FBI agents and DPD officers who handled the boxes.

It's interesting. Truly refused to let the FBI fingerprint any female employees.

Steve Thomas

[Duke Lane]

Duke,

Does anyone know /a/ which of the 75 TSBD employees were not fingerprinted, /b/ what the disposition of those prints collected was (i.e., became CEs, CDs, FBI files, etc.), /c/ if that data is available today and, if so, from where (file IDs helpful), and /d/ what data (images) exists of ALL of the prints found on the boxes, whether identified, identifiable, eliminated or not, and if so, where they can be obtained.

You can get a list of the employees who were fingerprinted from 26H beginning at page 799.

I like using this site because you can blow up the magnification of a page. It makes it much easier to read. I guess you could compare that against a list of all the employees and determine who was not fingerprinted.

The list of TSBD employees is on pages 802 and 803 I think. In the back and forth between Hoover and Rankin, there is also a list of the FBI agents and DPD officers who handled the boxes.

It's interesting. Truly refused to let the FBI fingerprint any female employees.

Steve Thomas

Thanks, Steve; you da MAN! Just what I'm looking for short of the print cards! CE1381 also contains statements made, around 3/20/64, of all of the TSBD employees plus a couple of those who worked at the Houston St warehouse as well, but of course it doesn't go into fingerprinting at all.

As to female employees' prints, one could argue as to relevance: why take their prints for elimination when their gender alone ostensibly does exactly that? It would have seemed like a collossal waste of time and - at the risk of offending - could have only served to prolong the women's upset to be fingerprinted "like a common criminal" as if having worked in the building wasn't enough.

Or, at least, that's a perception.

I recall, tho', that all of the employees' prints were taken, save two. (I ain't often right, but I've never been wrong ... and I guess we'll just have to see which of those it is this time!)

Thanks again, let ya know what I turn up!

[John Simkin]

See also this thread:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=6815

This is an important subject and seems under-researched.

[Duke Lane]

See also this thread:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=6815

This is an important subject and seems under-researched.

Thanks for that, John.

I haven't had the time to pull 26H off the shelf as yet (it takes too long to print the exhibits from the web a page at a time and too small to read without zooming on it). I'm just wondering if I'll find the other TSBD employee with the means and opportunity on the list of those whose prints weren't taken.

[Duke Lane]

See also this thread: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=6815

This is an important subject and seems under-researched.

Thanks for that, John. I haven't had the time to pull 26H off the shelf as yet (it takes too long to print the exhibits from the web a page at a time and too small to read without zooming on it). I'm just wondering if I'll find the other TSBD employee with the means and opportunity on the list of those whose prints weren't taken.

Does anyone know /a/ which of the 75 TSBD employees were not fingerprinted, /b/ what the disposition of those prints collected was (i.e., became CEs, CDs, FBI files, etc.), /c/ if that data is available today and, if so, from where (file IDs helpful), and /d/ what data (images) exists of ALL of the prints found on the boxes, whether identified, identifiable, eliminated or not, and if so, where they can be obtained.

You can get a list of the employees who were fingerprinted from 26H beginning at page 799: http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...2&relPageId=835. I like using this site because you can blow up the magnification of a page. It makes it much easier to read.

I guess you could compare that against a list of all the employees and determine who was not fingerprinted. The list of TSBD employees is on pages 802 and 803 I think. In the back and forth between Hoover and Rankin, there is also a list of the FBI agents and DPD officers who handled the boxes.

It's interesting. Truly refused to let the FBI fingerprint any female employees.

Steve Thomas

Thanks, both John and Steve.

CE1381 also contains statements made, around 3/20/64, of all of the TSBD employees plus a couple of those who worked at the Houston St warehouse as well. This is, as best as I can tell, a complete listing of everyone who worked in the building at the time, or even just for that day.

As to female employees' prints, one could argue as to relevance: why take their prints for elimination when their gender alone ostensibly does exactly that?

I'd recall that all of the employees' prints were taken save two, but that turns out to have been a mistaken recollection

Additional questions follow; first the findings:

According to CE3131 (which is to say "according to J. Edgar Hoover and the FBI"), referenced above, as of September 18, 1964, only one latent palm print - and no additional finger prints remained to be identified.

With that in mind, it was only on September 17 - one day before - that Truly had refused to have the women fingerprinted, for three (ostensibly) very good reasons at the time, none being that there was no hint of a female's being involved.

This exhibit deals only with prints found on four cartons supposedly comprising the "sniper's nest." Hoover notes that O.V. Campbell made himself and two other male employees available for printing, and that of the prints previously obtained, none matched any of the latent prints of either sort found on the boxes.

Hoover also notes, however, that "the Bureau is presently processing several other palm prints obtained in connection with this project." I don't have any reference to these.

There were, according to other correspondence in the exhibit, "19 identifiable latent fingerprints and six identifiable latent palm prints," not including "one fingerprint and one palm print on the four cardboard cartons which have been identified as those of Lee Harvey Oswald." That sounds like a total of 20 finger- and seven palm prints.

Truly stated to the FBI that the boxes contained "'Think and Do' books, 'People and Progress,' and 'Second Rolling Reader' books." I don't recall what the orders later found in the TSBD on the clipboard showed LHO had been collecting that morning, tho' I remember "Rolling Reader" books being among them. There is not, to the best of my knowledge, any record of what other order-fillers were picking that day ... but it seems that the guys generally worked on particular publishers' books, so it is at least possible that nobody else was picking these particular books (and I don't recall what Jack Dougherty said he was getting).

The only employees or former employees who were apparently fingerprinted were only those who "could possibly have handled the cartons," who were listed as follows (those who were fingerprinted are starred in red):

Hank Norman

Carl Jones

Eddie Shields

Danny Arce

Jack Dougherty

Buell Wesley Frazier

Charles Givens

Junior Jarman

Frankie Kaiser

Roy Lewis

Billy Lovelady

Eddie Piper

Bill Shelley

Troy West

Bonnie Ray Williams

O.V. Campbell (?)

All of the above were fingerprinted except Carl Jones, who no longer worked at TSBD in September 1964; neither did Hank Norman (he and Jones are listed as "former employees"), but Norman somehow managed to get printed anyway while Jones did not.

That Troy West was one of those who "could possibly have handled the cartons" sort of belies this investigation further inasmuch as he had testified that he worked wrapping the outgoing boxes on the first floor, and never left his work area except to make morning coffee and, presumably, to use the john. He no more "could possibly have handled the cartons" than Roy Truly by this measure.

Jack Dougherty was on the sixth floor several times during the day to "get stock," but his prints were not on the boxes (or at least not identifiably so). It may have simply been that he didn't retrieve any of these particular items that particular day.

Other men who were not (at first glance, anyway) finger- or palm-printed were:

Jack Cason (went home to lunch at 12:10)

Warren Caster (at Denton, 35 miles away)

Spaulden Earnest Jones (lunch at Blue Front diner)

Herbert Junker (ditto)

Haddon Spurgeon Aiken (worked at N Houston St warehouse)

Franklin Wester (ditto)

Lloyd Viles

Otis Williams (bookkeeping supervisor)

Joe Molina (bookkeeper)

Steven Wilson

These are all apparently TSBD people who could not "possibly have handled the cartons," no how, no way, not ever. All of them, however, had alibis - and most had alibi witnesses - for the 12:15-12:45 time frame, and consequently most likely were not on the sixth floor during - or immediately before or after - the shooting.

Some of the prints on these boxes were identified as having come from cops, including Captain Doughty, Lieutenant Carl Day, and Detectives Livingston and Studebaker. In addition, another detective - Bobby Gene Brown - had handled the four boxes, and his prints, too, were taken for elimination.

Of the identified fingerprints, they were:

18 belonging to Studebaker (box "A");

5 of Studebaker's on Box B;

1 of Studebaker's on Box c;

2 on Box B belonging to an FBI clerk;

1 of the clerk's prints on Box C; and

2 of the clerk's prints on Box D

... in addition to one belonging to Lee Oswald, thus leaving just one unidentified. Of the latent palm prints:

2 on Box A belonging to Studebaker;

1 on Box B belonging to Studebaker;

1 on Box C belonging to Studebaker; and

1 on Box A belonging to the FBI clerk

... in addition to one belonging to Oswald, leaving just one unidentified.

In sum, the fingerprints that were taken did not match up to any identifiable prints on the boxes, and only one finger- and one palm print remained unidentified as of the time the WC was wrapping up operations.

It is seemingly, then, of no particular consequence that these men - and all of the women - did not have their prints taken for, even if they had handled the boxes, the prints on the boxes could not have been identified and matched up to theirs. Or so, at least, said J. Edgar Hoover.

But all of this pertains only to the four boxes that made up the "gun rest." Hoover mentioned "other prints" being investigated, but given the late date at which they were still running tests on them, I don't know if (and doubt that) this information made it into the twenty-six.

The Hoover communique in CE3131 also does not mention where the prints that his lab was "still investigating" were turned up. Does anyone have any additional information on these, or know where I might start looking some more?

More later, it's late here ....

[Duke Lane]

Oops. Duplicate post removed.