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The Fourth of July Independence Day


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;) to the U.S. of A.

What kind of independence includes domestic spying, warrantless searches, incarceration without due process, and torture? My vocabulary may not be the best in the world, but the word "INDEPENDENCE" has no room in it for such activities. For those who consider the new methods to be necessary for the preservation of our freeedoms, I offer this quote from a great American, Carl Oglesby:

"Tyranny and terror promote and multiply each other so well because each is the other's only possible legitimation. But they are actually the same ... they cannot legitimate each other.... The authentic rejection of terror mandates the rejection of tyranny. The authentic rejection of tyranny mandates the rejection of terror. There is no way to defend the democracy by the use of antidemocratic means. There is no antirepublican method corresponding to a republican purpose. There is no furtherance of national and personal, political and social independence through submission to national police controls. The state cannot at the same time uphold the law and trample it underfoot."

Carl Oglesby, The Yankee and Cowboy War, (Kansas City: Sheed Andrews and McMeel, Inc., 1976), p. 20.

Happy Fourth of July!

Tim [T.C.]

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;) to the U.S. of A.

Hey Ter,

Thanx for posting that. I talked to Carl today and told him this was going out over all the internet;

can't think of a better 4th of July tribute than those words. Carl was before his time. Maybe we will get

him online and posting here yet.

Hope everyone's having a great holiday weekend. Especially you Terry:

"Please come to (Austin) in the springtime" :(

luv ya.

Dawn

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;) to the U.S. of A.

Hey Ter,

Thanx for posting that. I talked to Carl today and told him this was going out over all the internet;

can't think of a better 4th of July tribute than those words. Carl was before his time. Maybe we will get

him online and posting here yet.

Hope everyone's having a great holiday weekend. Especially you Terry:

"Please come to (Austin) in the springtime" :(

luv ya.

Dawn

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"Please come to (Austin) in the springtime" :)

In the springtime? I'm still trying to get there by the fall, fer cryin' out loud!

Hopefully, this new job will afford me the luxury of actually having enough left over from my paycheck to save for the planefare and some 'mad' money to run all over town with. Keep your fingers crossed.

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"Please come to (Austin) in the springtime" :)

In the springtime? I'm still trying to get there by the fall, fer cryin' out loud!

Hopefully, this new job will afford me the luxury of actually having enough left over from my paycheck to save for the planefare and some 'mad' money to run all over town with. Keep your fingers crossed.

Update: I meant to type that Carl has given his permission- (to Terry and I, via 3-way conversation yesterday)- that he'd be "honored" to have his brilliant "Yankee Cowboy War-Conspiracies from Dallas to Watergate" scanned onto the net. I am in the process of trying to get somone who will do this. My copy is held together by a lot of tape, so I would not even consider trying to photocopy it, let alone scan. ) Nor do I have the time).

Ter: Look in your "in" email box. "Re Austin".

A very happy Dawn

HAPPY 4TH OF JULY EVERYONE!!!!

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This July Fourth, ignore polls on America’s image

Christopher Hitchens, The Examiner

WASHINGTON - Here’s what I want to know, and here’s why I want to know it. At what point in history, exactly, did the Pew Center decide that it knew how to measure world opinion?

I ask this because almost every week I seem to read a study of how the rest of the globe thinks (or at any rate feels) about the United States. The polls in this country are unreliable enough and are often used to measure intangibles, such as “approval ratings,” which is why there is so much fluctuation within and between them. But who’s doing the random samples in Somalia and Tajikistan and Ecuador?

I ask because these polls tend to inform Americans that the rest of the world has a decidedly low view of them. That this is true in large parts of the Middle East, and among large swathes of European intellectuals, is something that I can already tell you from experience.

For that matter, it was at one point true that the majority of Pakistanis, say, believed not just that all Jews had left the World Trade Center on time, but that (therefore) they had all reported for work on time, hung around for a bit — presumably whistling and wearing unconcerned expressions — and only then left; doubtless offering some clever Semitic excuse. Not even al-Qaida’s pilots had as exact a schedule as that.

Nonetheless, and despite the absurdity and hysteria of much of what is said and believed, we seem almost ready for a poll of Americans on what they think the rest of the world thinks of them in opinion polls, where the “finding” would be that most of those Americans polled think that most other people polled think they stink.

There are several possible responses to this.

One of them — no doubt to be found in the presumed “red states” — is to say “who gives a flying flip?” Another is not to surrender to impressionism, and to do some work of one’s own.

Large numbers in India, for example (another multiethnic federal and secular democracy), report highly favorable views of the U.S.

A very important poll in Iran (where polling is illegal) found that a huge majority of Iranians considered better relations with America to be the single most urgent priority. One of those who conducted the survey was a former American embassy hostage-taker, who was jailed for publishing his findings.

Then there is the question of method. Polling in the U.S. depends on finding a lot of people who are identifiable by name, and at home in their kitchens when the poll-taker calls. How is this feat replicated in the Andes, say, or in the Congo? Who pays for the work? When is it decided that the time is right?

For example, I am quite certain that an opinion poll of any kind, taken in the Muslim world in 1992, would have discovered enormous resentment at the failure of the United States to intervene militarily in Bosnia. But this ingredient in the famous mixture of Islamic grievances is seldom, if ever, mentioned, and certainly wasn’t head-counted at the time. As a result of that just and necessary intervention, large numbers of Orthodox Christians, not just in Serbia, now record strongly “anti-American” opinions. Which goes to show that you can’t please everybody.

It also goes to show that you probably shouldn’t try. A country that attempted to be in everybody’s good books would be quite paralyzed. The last time everybody said they liked the United States (or said that they said they liked the United States) was just after Sept. 11, when the nation was panicked and traumatized and trying to count its dead. Well, no thanks. This is too high a price to be paid for being popular.

Measurements of opinion are in any event static, and they assume passivity, and a consensus upon knowledge. If you had asked people in 2001 whether they thought it was likely that Afghans and Iraqis would be holding free elections in a couple of years (not that any polling group ever did even suggest such a question), I doubt you would have got a very good response. And how, in any case, could people have known enough to know what they were supposedly talking about?

If I was to interrupt this article every few sentences, asking you whether or not I was making a good impression on you, I hope and believe that you would think I was a servile jerk. Yet this is what our politicians are doing in every speech (most notably in the absurd recent debate on “flag-burning”) and this is apparently what we hire Karen Hughes to do in our public diplomacy.

Faced with a complete beast like the late Abu-Musab al-Zarqawi, who has been trying to kill us for several years, millions of Americans appear to believe that he only appeared in Iraq because in some way we made him upset. Well, even if this was true — which it is not — it wouldn’t be such a bad thing. (What would you say to a policy that made him contented, instead?).

Thus, for a Fourth of July message, I would suggest less masochism, more confidence on the American street, and less nervous reliance on paper majorities discovered by paper organizations.

Happy Independence Day.

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I am posting on this thread as I do not wish to reply on the thread "Carl Oglesby: The Yankee and Cowboy War". But I just read that first installment. First time I have read those words in about 15 years and I am as spellbound as I was when I first read them.

As an aside here, I feel that I need to make an additional point- a person al one. There has been a lot of speculation here about Ashton Gray somehow "turning (my) head around" (paraphrase sorry). I held the views I hold re Watergate since its inception. One night in early 1973, a neighbor of mine and I were engaged in conversation. Talk turned to Watergate, of course. Upon hearing my views my neighbor/friend ( David)- said that I must be "reading Carl Oglesby". To which I replied "who is Carl Oblesby?" (I would meet Carl a few weeks later when David took me to a lecture Carl was giving at Boston University) and we have been very close friends ever since. Family!! ) But, Carl did not "form (my) views" on these matters, any more than has Ahston. I have learned some very interesting things about Watergate by reading Ashton's work, just as I- long ago- had my thinking more clarified by reading Carl's masterful work.

So, to have this wonderful opportunity to re-read it here on the forum, knowing that other forum members will also now appreciate this beautifully scripted prose and most cogent analysis of "Conspiracies from Dallas to Watergate" brings me such joy on this lovely 4th of July. Thanks to Tim Carroll, for putting these words on his blog, and to Ter for posting them here. But especially to John for the big task of making the book available here on the forum.

Of course the most praise and thanks goes to my dear, dear friend Carl O. for all the work that went into writing this book.

Dawn

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Hi Dawn,

Like you, I didn't want to post on the other thread. I'm sure you are familiar with Mr. Oglesby's speech to the Massachussetts Libertarian Party in 1991. (See below). It's entitled Secret State. At any rate, here's my post.

The Yankee and Cowboy War - Conspiracies from Dallas to Watergate by Carl Oglesby

Sheed, Andrews And McMeel, Inc., Kansas City, 1976. HARDCOVER. Book Condition: G. Dust Jacket Condition: VERY GOOD. Not Illustrated (illustrator). 8vo. 1st edition 1976. An ex-library copy with the usual markings - the boards are somewhat shelf worn at the bottom edges. Else a Good or better copy in a VG dust jacket. Uncommon in any format. FIRST EDITION. 355pp.

The above sells for $172.50 at ABE books. http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResu...oy+war&x=44

The paperback and second edition versions are hard to come by, but available. The 1977 Berkeley Pub Group edition is also available.

The Yankee and Cowboy War is a classic. Carl Oglesby's words are as important today as they were in 1976.

Here is an interesting article about Mr. Oglesby that appeared in Life Magazine in 1968.

http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/the_critics/o...ant_voices.html

Here is an Address by Carl Oglesby to the Massachusetts Libertarian Party on the 200th Birthday of the Bill of Rights,

December 19, 1991 entitled Secret State.

http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/the_critics/o...cret_State.html

Mr. Oglesby's 1991 words remain haunting, particularly in the post 9/11 political world we live in today.

Edited by Michael Hogan
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I AM YOUR FLAG

I was born June 14, 1777

I am more than just cloth shaped into a design.

I am the refuge of the world's oppressed people.

I am the silent sentinel of Freedom.

I am the emblem of the greatest sovereign nation on earth.

I am the inspiration for which American patriots gave their lives and fortunes.

I have led your sons into battle from Valley Forge to the caves of Afghanistan.

I stood triumphant yet humbled over the ruins and fallen heroes of the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, and the Fields of Rural Somerset County.

I walk in silence with each of your Honored dead to their final resting-place beneath silent white crosses, row upon row.

I have flown through peace and war, strife and prosperity, and amidst it all I have been respected.

My red stripes symbolize the blood spilled in defense of this glorious Nation.

My white stripes signify the burning tears shed by Americans who lost their sons...

My blue field is indicative of God's heaven, under which I fly.

My stars, clustered together, unify 50 states as one, for God and Country. "Old Glory" is my nickname, and proudly I wave on high.

Honor me, respect me, and defend me with your lives and fortunes.

Never let my enemies tear me down from my lofty position, lest I never return.

Keep alight the fires of patriotism: strive earnestly for the spirit of democracy. Worship Eternal God, and keep His Commandments: and I shall remain the bulwark of peace and freedom for all mankind.

I AM YOUR FLAG. - Written by Marine Master Sergeant Percy Webb for a flag booklet distributed in 1933. (Revised by Greg McAtee--2/1/02)

HAPPY 4TH of July everyone....

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Closing quote from a Communist playwright. Nice touch. The fact that your hero was slain by a Marxist seems not to have made an impression.

It just wouldn't be July 4th without another poison pill sent to the US on her birthday. So classy. So ... predictable. Funny how I've been living in a "police state" for 39 years but failed to take notice. I guess the millions who have been streaming across the Mexican border, or braving the shark-filled waters off of Cuba, or hiding in cargo containers from the Far East failed to get your memo about this "ULTRA right, neo-fascist, insanely-millenialist-Christian extremist, militarist, totalitarian" hellhole we warmly call America. Don't love this country? Fine. I'll love it enough for the both of us, warts and all. Have fun losing elections with that kind of mad verbiage.

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Closing quote from a Communist playwright. Nice touch. The fact that your hero was slain by a Marxist seems not to have made an impression.

It just wouldn't be July 4th without another poison pill sent to the US on her birthday. So classy. So ... predictable. Funny how I've been living in a "police state" for 39 years but failed to take notice. I guess the millions who have been streaming across the Mexican border, or braving the shark-filled waters off of Cuba, or hiding in cargo containers from the Far East failed to get your memo about this "ULTRA right, neo-fascist, insanely-millenialist-Christian extremist, militarist, totalitarian" hellhole we warmly call America. Don't love this country? Fine. I'll love it enough for the both of us, warts and all. Have fun losing elections with that kind of mad verbiage.

What his political beliefs were have NOTHING to do with the wisdom of his statements. FYI I am not a communist, but even your bringing that up is only to ignore the facts and issues. It is PRECISELY because I would love to love my country if only it would act in way one could even like, that I shed a tear or give a damn! That people come to the USA for economic advantage says nothing of the moral and ethical poverty in the land. I don't want you to do anything in my name. A certain type of knee-jerk patriotism is the first step toward what happened in Germany in the 30s...my country right or wrong...never...my country only when it does right and I do NOT seeing it [on the level of the ruling elite] doing anything right except heading to the extreme right and taking the whole country and planet to destruction and along the short path that will be, toward an anti-democratic, anti-humanistic, pro-war, pro-hate, imperialistic, neo-fascist, immoral and illegal interlude we now live in.

And by the way LHO who was not the assassin and did not fire any shots that day worked for the CIA and was on the right as were all his handlers - not to mention those that maneuvered him into being the patsy.....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I will not waste any more time on your absurd white is black ignorance. You are either in the service of those deceptive masters or have been totally fooled by them.

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"It just wouldn't be July 4th without another poison pill sent to the US on her birthday. So classy. So ... predictable. Funny how I've been living in a "police state" for 39 years but failed to take notice. I guess the millions who have been streaming across the Mexican border, or braving the shark-filled waters off of Cuba, or hiding in cargo containers from the Far East failed to get your memo about this "ULTRA right, neo-fascist, insanely-millenialist-Christian extremist, militarist, totalitarian" hellhole we warmly call America. Don't love this country? Fine. I'll love it enough for the both of us, warts and all. Have fun losing elections with that kind of mad verbiage."

There's going to be a Clyde Award!

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What his political beliefs were have NOTHING to do with the wisdom of his statements.

Yeah, that's why this place is littered with inspirational Ronald Reagan quotes. Oh wait. It isn't.

FYI I am not a communist, but even your bringing that up is only to ignore the facts and issues.

Never implied you were.

It is PRECISELY because I would love to love my country if only it would act in way one could even like, that I shed a tear or give a damn!

No, you do not love this country. Far from it. People like you would willingly abandon Iraq to the beheaders if it meant hurting Bush or weakening the US as a world power.

That people come to the USA for economic advantage says nothing of the moral and ethical poverty in the land.

Yeah right. Money is the sole motivation. That's why millions are pouring into Communist China to take advantage of their ascendant economy.

I don't want you to do anything in my name. A certain type of knee-jerk patriotism is the first step toward what happened in Germany in the 30s..

Oh dear. Another tired, lame Nazi analogy. What would you people do without Nazis? It seems as if you're incapable of making a point without them. Why is it that Soviet Russia always escapes your consideration?

my country right or wrong...never...my country only when it does right and I do NOT seeing it [on the level of the ruling elite] doing anything right except heading to the extreme right and taking the whole country and planet to destruction and along the short path that will be, toward an anti-democratic, anti-humanistic, pro-war, pro-hate, imperialistic, neo-fascist, immoral and illegal interlude we now live in.

Eeeeevil Amerikkka. You know you have a problem when you hate your country more than the dark forces dedicated to destroying it. A nation embarrassed about its past, apologetic about its very existence, is a nation unable to defend itself from its enemies. I think Orwell would back me up on this.

And by the way LHO who was not the assassin and did not fire any shots that day worked for the CIA and was on the right as were all his handlers - not to mention those that maneuvered him into being the patsy.....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I will not waste any more time on your absurd white is black ignorance. You are either in the service of those deceptive masters or have been totally fooled by them.

Some nice gentlemen from Bellevue will be showing up at your door shortly.

P.S. Shouting doesn't make you any more cogent.

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Guest Stephen Turner

From your friendly former colonial overlord(vanquished) Happy Forth, even if its a day late..

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It's just relative. It has more to do with desperation.

All countries have elements that want to move somewhere. Because of a blend of a mythical land of promise, an acceptance of low wages, and restrictive travel laws, the USA becomes a desirable destination that poor people will use whatever means available go to if they see it as a way to better themselves. Low wages creates a blurry underclass competing for work. This is an environment that enables aliens to find illegal work that earns them more than they would at home. Many, certainly not streams of millions, attempt to enter illegally. From the south comes seasonal workers. From the crowded east, desperate people with no other means hide in containers, again , certainly not millions.

How easy is it for the ordinary person who wants a change of scenery, who also happens to live in Cuba, to enter the US of A?

As far as I know, it involves clandstinity and a mad dodg the coast guard dash for body to touch land (miss it by one inch, and back you go) plus a convincing story to get you through officialdom. This is an incentive for a would be immigrant to be desperate, and to tell a story of desperation.

Periodically there have been periods of relaxation on this. Then you see sudden flows out of Cuba of the backlog from periods of severe restriction.

How easy is it for the ordinary person who wants a change of scenery, who also happens to live in Cuba, to leave Cuba?

As far as I know, easy.

Likewise US citizens wishing to go to Cuba will find the barriers on domestic soil. Cuba itself is pretty open. It is reasonable that even with US disregard for Cuban sovereignty, US economic terrorism, , US covert terror ops and assassination attempts, creates difficulties for Cuban people, yet a small monority is interested in 'streaming' to America.

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