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DPD 22/11/63


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James

Do you know these two men who are being led through the DPD at the same time as Oswald.

Don't know who they are but the people on the left seem to have a strange aversion to being lit up from the same frontal light that Harvey's face, shirt and the other guy's shirt is lit up by. The cop's hat doesn't seem to have a problem being lit up from the rear. They better stop quick 'cos they're gonna walk into Harvey.

If the pictures real the two guys look related and have the same barber as Lyle Lovette(?) A barber I would sue!

ST

Edited by Steven Tomlinson
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Another frame showing the same men, ignore the television sub titles at the bottom of the frame.

Researching the individual's [beside's Lee Oswald] is a great example of the need to access a log file of all arrest's from 11/22/63, if not earlier. [Has anyone seen such a document?] My first reaction, outside of that would be to scan the phone logs of the Dallas Police Dept. from Friday - 11/22/63 through Sunday 11/24/63 [see Warren Commission CD 1444] to see if perhaps there are listing's for 'same last name entries,' in the hope that would reveal, or help clarify matters re: the individual's identities.

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Guest John Woods

Another frame showing the same men, ignore the television sub titles at the bottom of the frame.

Researching the individual's [beside's Lee Oswald] is a great example of the need to access a log file of all arrest's from 11/22/63, if not earlier. [Has anyone seen such a document?] My first reaction, outside of that would be to scan the phone logs of the Dallas Police Dept. from Friday - 11/22/63 through Sunday 11/24/63 [see Warren Commission CD 1444] to see if perhaps there are listing's for 'same last name entries,' in the hope that would reveal, or help clarify matters re: the individual's identities.

[/quote

On the left a blowup from a Murray image. On the right the suspect drawing by the DPD

john w

Edited by John Woods
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On the left a blowup from a Murray image. On the right the suspect drawing by the DPD
... and a view from the full Murray image would look like ...?
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Guest John Woods
On the left a blowup from a Murray image. On the right the suspect drawing by the DPD

... and a view from the full Murray image would look like ...?

[/quote

Murray full image.

john w

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James

Do you know these two men who are being led through the DPD at the same time as Oswald.

Hi Robin,

I don't know who these guys are, but the guy on the left looks a bit like one of David Ferrie's young friends. For John Woods, check your images and see what you think. I'm having some problems accessing my photographs at the moment. D'oh!

James

Edited by James Richards
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James

Do you know these two men who are being led through the DPD at the same time as Oswald.

Four young prisoners were press-ganged into lineup duty alongside Oswald, at different times. They were:

Richard Walter Borchgardt, a remand prisoner being held on suspicion of firearms, burglary and theft offences. He was 23 years old, 5'9", 161 pounds and had brown hair, blue eyes and a fair complexion. [His name has also been rendered in various places as Robert Borchgardt, which is the name cited by DPD's K.L. Anderton in a handwritten report of an interview with Borchgardt.]

Ellis Carl Brazel, another prisoner, on remand for motoring offences. He was 21 years old, 5'10", 169 pounds and had blond hair, green eyes and a ruddy complexion.

John Thurman Horne, also on remand for motoring offences. He was 18 years old. Other details not known.

David Edmond Knapp, another prisoner, on remand on suspicion of burglary and theft. He was also 18 years old. No other details.

The first two men were in the third lineup, for the Davis sisters, at about 7:55 pm on the 22nd.

The second pair of two men were in the final lineup, for the cab drivers Whaley and Scoggins, at about 2:15 on the 23rd.

Based on the descriptions, primarily based on age, weight and hair colour, it seems likely that the two young men pictured in the photograph above with Oswald were Horne and Knapp.

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James

Do you know these two men who are being led through the DPD at the same time as Oswald.

Hi Robin,

I don't know who these guys are, but the guy on the left looks a bit like one of David Ferrie's young friends. For John Woods, check your images and see what you think. I'm having some problems accessing my photographs at the moment. D'oh!

James

Thanks for the comments.

Nice Murray photo John.

Gary mack say's that he has there names, he will look in his files and let me know.

James

Do you know these two men who are being led through the DPD at the same time as Oswald.

Four young prisoners were press-ganged into lineup duty alongside Oswald, at different times. They were:

Richard Walter Borchgardt, a remand prisoner being held on suspicion of firearms, burglary and theft offences. He was 23 years old, 5'9", 161 pounds and had brown hair, blue eyes and a fair complexion. [His name has also been rendered in various places as Robert Borchgardt, which is the name cited by DPD's K.L. Anderton in a handwritten report of an interview with Borchgardt.]

Ellis Carl Brazel, another prisoner, on remand for motoring offences. He was 21 years old, 5'10", 169 pounds and had blond hair, green eyes and a ruddy complexion.

John Thurman Horne, also on remand for motoring offences. He was 18 years old. Other details not known.

David Edmond Knapp, another prisoner, on remand on suspicion of burglary and theft. He was also 18 years old. No other details.

The first two men were in the third lineup, for the Davis sisters, at about 7:55 pm on the 22nd.

The second pair of two men were in the final lineup, for the cab drivers Whaley and Scoggins, at about 2:15 on the 23rd.

Based on the descriptions, primarily based on age, weight and hair colour, it seems likely that the two young men pictured in the photograph above with Oswald were Horne and Knapp.

Thanks for that information Robert.

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John Thurman Horne, also on remand for motoring offences. He was 18 years old. Other details not known.

David Edmond Knapp, another prisoner, on remand on suspicion of burglary and theft. He was also 18 years old. No other details.

The first two men were in the third lineup, for the Davis sisters, at about 7:55 pm on the 22nd.

The second pair of two men were in the final lineup, for the cab drivers Whaley and Scoggins, at about 2:15 on the 23rd.

Based on the descriptions, primarily based on age, weight and hair colour, it seems likely that the two young men pictured in the photograph above with Oswald were Horne and Knapp.

RCD

From Brussel's THE LAST WORDS OF LEE HARVEY OSWALD

4:45 P.M. At a Lineup for Helen Markham, Witness to Tippit Murder

"It isn't right to put me in line with these teenagers. . . .

Did Brussel confuse the line-ups?

In any case, the teenagers in the lineups was one possibility that came to mind when I first read the question. Another possibility that occurred to me was Ray and Gary Joiner of the NIC who were picked up at the trade mart for picketing. Ray was 16 - not sure on Gary's age. The two in the photo do look like brothers to me...

Edited by Greg Parker
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From Brussel's THE LAST WORDS OF LEE HARVEY OSWALD

4:45 P.M. At a Lineup for Helen Markham, Witness to Tippit Murder

"It isn't right to put me in line with these teenagers. . . .

Did Brussel confuse the line-ups?

In any case, the teenagers in the lineups was one possibility that came to mind when I first read the question. Another possibility that occurred to me was Ray and Gary Joiner of the NIC who were picked up at the trade mart for picketing. Ray was 16 - not sure on Gary's age. The two in the photo do look like brothers to me...

I wondered the same thing, Greg, but have never found any indication that Oswald was in a lineup, or photographed, with the Joiners. As for the Markham lineup that commenced at about 4:35 on the 22nd, Oswald was accompanied by three cops: Acting Detective Perry, Detective Clark and Jail Clerk Don Ables.

Whether the discrepancy is Mae's or the DPD's is difficult [perhaps impossible] to tell, given that DPD record keeping of these events left much to be desired. When the extant record, more than forty years later, refers to both Richard and Robert Borchgardt, it illustrates just how shoddy the paperwork was. How can DPD personnel not know the names of those it has in custody? How can it not know with certainty which prisoners appeared during which lineup? The testimony provided by Jail Clerk Ables, et al, is likely the closest to the truth, but even that is incomplete.

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Greg,

In any case, the teenagers in the lineups was one possibility that came to mind when I first read the question. Another possibility that occurred to me was Ray and Gary Joiner of the NIC who were picked up at the trade mart for picketing. Ray was 16 - not sure on Gary's age. The two in the photo do look like brothers to me...

Raymond Lee Joiner was w/m/16 Black Hair, Brown Eyes, 5'2" weight 102

also arrested at the Trade Mart was Gary Dwain Joiner w/m/17 and

William Lee Cummings w/m/17

DPD Archives Box 7 Folder# 7, Item# 18

At first I thought this might have been one of the lineups, but James Leavelle told the WC that:

Mr. LEAVELLE. In one instance--now, I am not positive which one it was, Oswald was in a T-shirt, having the other shirt removed upstairs where they were going to send it to the FBI laboratory for tests, and the rest of them, I believe, had on shirts. He was the only one that had on a T-shirt and I recall--I am not sure but I think it was the last one where he was raising cain about being up there with a T-shirt and wouldn't be quiet

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mr. LEAVELLE. He said it wasn't fair, him being showed up in a T-shirt and being photographed in a T-shirt and all that.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/leave_j1.htm

This is the lineup that involved Whaley and Scoggins at 2:00 in the afternoon of the 23rd.

Whaley also mentioned the fact that Oswald was in a t-shirt

Then they took me down in their room where they have their show-ups, and all, and me and this other taxi driver who was with me, sir, we sat in the room awhile and directly they brought in six men, young teenagers, and they all were handcuffed together. Well, they wanted me to pick out my passenger.

At that time he had on a pair of black pants and white T-shirt, that is all he had on. But you could have picked him out without identifying him by just listening to him because he was bawling out the policeman, telling them it wasn't right to put him in line with these teenagers and all of that and they asked me which one and I told them. It was him all right, the same man.

Mr. BALL. They had him in line with men much younger?

Mr. WHALEY. With five others.

Mr. BALL. Men much younger?

Mr. WHALEY. Not much younger, but just young kids they might have got them in jail.

Mr. BALL. Did he look older than those other boys?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/whaley1.htm

At that lineup with Oswald was David Knapp, John Thurman Horn, and David Lujan.

DPD Archives Box 6, Folder# 1, Item#73

Neither of the two men in the pictures looks Hispanic to me.

(As an aside, this particular citation is the only place in the Archives you will find Howard Brennan's name mentioned as being present at a lineup)

Steve Thomas

John,

On the left a blowup from a Murray image. On the right the suspect drawing by the DPD

john w

The first time I saw that police artist sketch, I was struck by how much the person looked like Jean Souetre.

Steve Thomas

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Robin,

James

Do you know these two men who are being led through the DPD at the same time as Oswald.

According to a June 11, 1964 memo from Forrest Sorrells to J. Lee Rankin,

CD 1304 http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/....do?docId=11699

Richard Walter Borchardt was 23, 5'9" tall and 161 lbs

John Thurman Horn was 18, 5'7" tall and 140 lbs.

The memo has a poor photograph of Horn, but he does not look like either of the two people in your photograph.

Steve Thomas

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