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Conflicting testimony, WC testimony and Epstein's

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Testimony by Marina Oswald and the DeMohrenschildts, concerning the "joke" and the Walker incident.

See how the story changes a little with time? And each one gives a different statement!

The truth is harder to forget. A story that is made up, on the other hand, will become inaccurate in one's memory with time.

George DeMohrenschildt in 1977, interview with Epstein, just before G. DeM killed himself.



What had brought De Mohrenschildt to the attention of the Warren Commission was Marina Oswald's testimony that De Mohrenschildt had rushed up the stairs of Oswald's house after he missed Walker and shouted, "Lee, how did you miss General Walker?" So he had to return from Haiti to testify. When questioned about this remark by the Commission, De Mohrenschildt shrugged it off as nothing more than an unfortunate coincidence: a "joke." He then returned to the obscurity of Haiti and gave no more interviews.

and continues...

He said he immediately rushed over to Oswald's house to find out what had happened and if Oswald had disposed of the rifle. He recalled being very frightened, as was his wife, Jean. He feared that he could be implicated, and the CIA might cut off support for his Haitian contract. at risk, that night was the last time he ever saw Oswald.


My questions, what happened to George DeM and Lee sitting on the couch when the "joke" was presented? What happened to Jeanne DeM's idea of taking a bunny over to the Oswalds?


When questioned by Jenner with the Warren Commission:

Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. And Jeanne told me that day, "Let's go and take a rabbit for Oswald's baby."

Mr. JENNER. This was on Easter Sunday?

Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Easter day. I don't remember it was Easter Sunday.

Mr. JENNER. Easter is always on Sunday.

Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; maybe it was the day before, the day after, but I think it was on the holiday. Maybe my wife will remember the date exactly. And so we drove over quite late in the evening and walked up--I think they were asleep. They were asleep and we knocked at the door and shouted, and Lee Oswald came down undressed, half undressed you see, maybe in shorts, and opened the door and we told him that we have the rabbit for the child. And it was a very short visit, you know. We just gave the rabbit to the baby and I was talking to Lee while Jeanne was talking to Marina about something which is immaterial which I do not recall right now, and all of a sudden----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Mr. Reporter, Jeanne is spelled J-e-a-n-n-e.

Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. And I think Oswald and I were standing near the window looking outside and I was asking him "How is your job" or "Are you making any money? Are you happy," some question of that type. All of a sudden Jeanne who was with Marina in the other room told me "Look, George, they have a gun here." And Marina opened the closet and showed it to Jeanne, a gun that belonged obviously to Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. This was a weapon? Did you go in and look?

Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I didn't look at the gun. I was still standing. The closet was open. Jeanne was looking at it, at the gun, and I think she asked Marina "what is that" you see. That was the sight on the gun. "What is that? That looks like a telescopic sight." And Marina said "That crazy idiot is target shooting all the time." So frankly I thought it was ridiculous to shoot target shooting in Dallas, you see, right in town. I asked him "Why do you do that?"

Mr. JENNER. What did he say?

Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He said "I go out and do target shooting. I like target shooting." So out of the pure, really jokingly I told him "Are you then the guy who took a pot shot at General Walker?" And he smiled to that, because just a few days before there was an attempt at General Walker's life, and it was very highly publicized in the papers, and I knew that Oswald disliked General Walker, you see. So I took a chance and I asked him this question, you see, and I can clearly see his face, you know.

He sort of shriveled, you see, when I asked this question.


My questions: Mr. DeM; What happened to you sitting on the couch talking to Lee when this took place? What about you running up the stairs and hollering the famous "joke" question at Lee concerning the shooting at Gen. Walker? No - wait, you say he came down and opened the door in his shorts...??


Mrs. DeMohrenschildt questioned by Jenner for the Warren Commission:

Mr. JENNER. You got there. Now, just relax----

Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I am trying to think hard, because every little fact could be important.

Mr. JENNER. But you are excited. Relax, and tell me everything that occurred, chronologically, as best you can on that occasion. You came to the door and either Marina or Oswald came to the door, and you and your husband went in the home?

Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Then, go on. Tell me about it.

Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. And I believe from what I remember George sat down on the sofa and started talking to Lee, and Marina was showing me the house that is why I said it looks like it was the first time, because why would she show me the house if I had been there before? Then we went to another room, and she opens the closet, and I see the gun standing there. I said, what is the gun doing over there?


Mr. JENNER. What did she say?

Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She said, "Oh, he just loves to shoot." I said, "Where on earth does he shoot? Where can he shoot?" When they lived in a little house. "Oh, he goes in the park and he shoots at leaves and things like that." But it didn't strike me too funny, because I personally love skeet shooting. I never kill anything. But I adore to shoot at a target, target shooting.

Mr. JENNER. Skeet?

Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I just love it.

Mr. JENNER. Didn't you think it was strange to have someone say he is going in a public park and shooting leaves?

Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. But he was taking the baby out. He goes with her, and that was his amusement.

Mr. JENNER. Did she say that?

Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that was his amusement, practicing in the park, shooting leaves. That wasn't strange to me, because any time I go to an amusement park I go to the rifles and start shooting. So I didn't find anything strange.

Mr. JENNER. And she also said he took it out in the park and was shooting it.

Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It wasn't very much. I believe it was only two rooms. And then I returned back, and told George do you know what they have in the closet? I came back to the room, where George and Lee were sitting and talking. I said, do you know what they have in the closet? A rifle. And started to laugh about it. And George, of course, with his sense of humor--Walker was shot at a few days ago, within that time. He said, "Did you take a pot shot at Walker by any chance?" And we started laughing our heads off, big joke, big George's joke. And later on, according to the newspapers, he admitted that he shot at Walker.

Mr. JENNER. Now, when George made that remark in the presence of Lee Oswald, "Did you take a pot shot at Walker?" Did you notice any change----


My Question: Mrs. DeM; Which is it? Were George and Lee standing by the window, sitting on the couch or did George run up the stairs and holler out the famous question?

Now Marina tells you Lee liked to shoot at leaves? What happened to target practice? Which is it? Or did he like to shoot at both, but told one leaves and the other targets?


Mrs. OSWALD. He said only that he had taken very good aim, that it was just chance that caused him to miss. He was very sorry that he had not hit him.

I asked him to give me his word that he would not repeat anything like that. I said that this chance shows that he must live and that he should not be shot at again. I told him that I would save the note and that if something like that

should be repeated again, I would go to the police and I would have the proof in the form of that note.

He said he would not repeat anything like that again.

By the way, several days after that, the De Mohrenschildts came to us, and as soon as he opened the door he said, "Lee, how is it possible that you missed?"

I looked at Lee. I thought that he had told De Mohrenschildt about it. And Lee looked at me, and he apparently thought that I had told De Mohrenschildt about it. It was kind of dark. But I noticed---it was in the evening, but I noticed that his face changed, that he almost became speechless.

You see, other people knew my husband better than I did. Not always--but in this case.

Mr. RANKIN. Was De Mohrenschildt a friend that he told---your husband told him personal things that you knew of?

Mrs. OSWALD. He asked Lee not because Lee had told him about it, but I think because he is smart enough man to have been able to guess it. I don't know---he is simply a liberal, simply a man. I don't think that he is being accused justly of being a Communist.


My question? I thought you all laughed your heads off about it and George and Lee were on the couch or were they by the window? Lee was speechless?


Any comments or other analysis or research on this?

Antti Hynönen

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Re the visit date of Sat. night ..April 13th,63....

On that date however the rifle was still buried in the ground..??

wherever...in a field near a railroad track..CE 1403, p.777.

and thus this incident could not have occurred..

How would L.H.O. bury a rifle in the ground without using a spade or similar?

How did he protect such a rifle from damage to be expected it to be buried in the

soil from 4 or moredays ??

If he used no protection then why wouldn't the microscopic examination

by the FBI expert Stombaugh on Nov.23.63..4H 81...reveal no traces of soil?

Since he buried such in the dead of night how did he locate such 4 days later?

and how did he dig it up without a shovel or such an implement?

How also is it that upon searching of all LHO's possessions by local officers

and federal agents no one discovered any rifle cleaning equipment..?

According to the Commission he made frequent use of said rifle, even burying

it in the ground..That he did so, but failed to clean the rifle, with no equipment

( which was well oiled) when discovered in the TSBD is simply not believable.

Yet the list of his belongings even make mention of a label from "King Oscar Kipper Recipes "CE 3042..and "One Texas flag ...small.." CE 2713...but no mention of rifle cleaning equipment......

Anyway Marina stated that Oswald had retrieved the buried rifle on Sunday..

April 14/63.....But Mrs. De M testifys in April of 64...that she saw it in the

closet on Sat. night April 13/63..when they visited ?

It becomes impossible to believe there ever was a rifle....

Which he never bought...the Mannlicher Carcano in the first place...the Money

Order to Klines, was never cashed......and the dates are not in sync.....

See "Harvey & Lee"..by John Armstrong....

Antti....I do not know if you have ever read DeMohrenschildt's manuscript

"I Am A Patsy".....

Great fictional read....more made up stories..IMO..But interesting....see below...

Regards B....


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Wim; I agree that raises further suspicion.

Bernice; I believe haven't read DeMohrenschildt's manuscript. Hopefully I can do that soon.

You make several excellent points, concerning the rifle.

I believe many more cover-up stories can been detected in the Warren Commission volumes, however reading through them takes so much time. This one I ponted out, about the visit, seeing the rifle in the closet and discussing the Walker shooting definitely seems to be a made up one since we have 3 witness statements, each giving slightly different stories, which by the way change as years go by.


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Judyth is in possession of a 1977 audio interview by Dutch journalist Willem Oltmans with DeM. This inteview has never been released to the public as far as I know. When Judyth and I listened to it for the first time, it became clear that the very favorable character descriptions of Lee Oswald and somewhat less favorable descriptions of Marina , were an exact match with what I already knew from Judyth.

But secondly, there is nothing in there that even remotely suggests that De Mohrenschildt suspected that Oswald had been Walker's assaillant. He states that he was flabbergasted to hear that LHO had killed the President. He states that he could not believe it. How does this rhyme with Epstein's allegations that DeM was satisfied that Lee had taken a shot at Walker? Unfortunetely, George is not around anymore to refute Epstein's "interview" with him. How convenient!


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Excerpts from the Warren Commission hearing with Michael Paine:

Has anyone analysed more of Michael Paine's statements? I wonder if there are more little omissions to the WC or additions that have come about later...

Any comments?


Mr. DULLES - Where was Marina staying at this time?

Mr. PAINE - Berry Street.

Mr. DULLES - Berry Street in Dallas.

Mr. LIEBELER - Berry Street or would it be Neely Street?

Mr. PAINE - Neely Street. So this was the first time I saw them. I had to go over, he didn't drive a car and I had to go over, and pick him up in my car and bring him back to the house. So I went over to Neely Street and saw them. Marina took about half an hour to pack all the things for Junie. Meanwhile I was talking to Lee at their house there.

Mr. LIEBELER - Would you tell us about that conversation?

Mr. PAINE - I asked him what he was doing, his job, and he showed me a picture on the wall, which was a piece of newspaper, I think--that is beside the point. I asked him about Russia, what he liked about.

Mr. DULLES - Could we get that picture?

Mr. PAINE - I think it was beside the point. It was a piece of newspaper showing a fashion ad, I think. I think his job was--


Mr. LIEBELER - Did you think there was more than one tent pole in the package or just one tent pole?

Mr. PAINE - As I say, I moved it several times, and I think I thought progressively each time. I moved it twice. It had three occasions. And the first one was an iron, thought of an iron pipe and then I have drawn, I drew yesterday, a picture of the thing I had in mind. Then in order to fill out the package I had to add another object to it and there I added again I was thinking of camping equipment, and I added a folding shovel such as I had seen in the Army, a little spade where the blade folds back over the handle. This has the trouble that this blade was too symmetrical I disposed to the handle and to fit the package the blade had to be off center, eccentric to the handle. Also, I had my vision of the pipe. It had an iron pipe about 30 inches long with a short section of pipe going off 45 degrees. No words here, it just happened that I did have this image in my mind of trying to fill up that package in the back burner of my mind.

Mr. LIEBELER - The witness yesterday did draw a picture of what he visualized as being in the blanket, and I will offer it in evidence later on in the hearing.

How long was this package in your estimation?

Mr. PAINE - Well, yesterday we measured the distance that I indicated with my hand, I think it came to 37 inches.

Mr. LIEBELER - Approximately how thick would you say it was?

Mr. PAINE - I picked it up each time and I put it in a position and then I would recover it from that position, so each time I moved it with the same position with my hands in the same position. My right hand, the thumb and forefinger could go around the pipe, and my left hand grabbed something which was an inch and a half inside the blanket or something thick.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did it occur to you at that time that there was a rifle in the package?

Mr. PAINE - That did not occur to me.

Mr. LIEBELER - You never at any time looked inside the package?

Mr. PAINE - That is correct. I could easily have felt the package but I was aware that of respecting his privacy of his possessions.

Mr. LIEBELER - Were you subsequently advised of the probability or the possibility that there had been a rifle wrapped in that package?

Mr. PAINE - When I arrived on Friday afternoon we went into the garage, I think Ruth, Marina and the policeman, and I am not sure it was the first time, but there we saw this blanket was on the floor below the bandsaw--

(At this point Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. PAINE - And a rifle was mentioned and then it rang a bell, the rifle answered, fitted the package that I had been trying to fit these unsuccessfully. It had never resolved itself, this shovel and pipe didn't fit in there.

Mr. LIEBELER - And it seemed to you likely that there had in fact been a rifle in the package?

Mr. PAINE - That answered it.


Mr. PAINE - I had the impression--yes, it was. The whole package was stiff. There was no shaking of the parts, and I had the impression it was wrapped with about two strings.

Mr. LIEBELER - I now show you Commission Exhibit 139, which is a rifle that was found in the Texas School Book Depository Building, and ask you if you at any time ever saw this rifle prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. PAINE - I did not,


A few questions for Mr. Paine: So you moved around the blanket several times that was 37 inches long that seemed to have one 30 inch iron tent pole in it, and before the assassination it never occurred to you it might well be the rifle you had seen Lee holding in a picture at the Neely Street apartment on April 2nd of 1963?

When questioned by the WC you bring up a newspaper clipping that Lee showed you, but fail to mention the critical "backyard photo"?

Fairly precise description of the package and of how he picked it up wouldn't you say? Of course no idea it could be a rifle, of course not?


The below is from:


The Assassin's Wife and the Quaker Woman Who Took Her In

By Thomas Mallon

[Originally published in The New Yorker, and reprinted by permission of Thomas Mallon. Excerpted from the book Mrs. Paine's Garage, Pantheon Press, a division of Random House]

"It was not until a 1993 interview, for a CBS documentary broadcast around the thirtieth anniversary of J.F.K.'s assassination, that Michael told a reporter, rather casually:

Obviously [Oswald] liked guns. I went one afternoon to pick him up, went upstairs, and I think the first thing he did, practically, was pick up this photograph of himself — eight by ten — holding his rifle there and some papers. I was a little startled. I suppose he was looking for a big revolution.

The statement went unremarked upon, though Michael Paine was admitting something he had never told either the Warren Commission or his wife: that, on the first evening he met Oswald, at the apartment on Neely Street, he discovered that Lee had a rifle; Lee had shown Michael the picture of himself brandishing it in one hand while holding two Communist newspapers in the other. Did Michael deliberately withhold this information from the commission? "No, no," Ruth says; he's "far too honest" for that. She concedes that "he should have brought it up" in 1964, and laughs uneasily about how it would have been "nice" for him to tell her before November 22, 1963. But "probably he didn't consider it very important." She claims that, in the several years since someone told her about this interview, she cannot remember ever asking Michael about the incident, though they were in communication. The assassination, she says, has always been doubly hard to deal with, intertwined as it was "with the difficulties in my marriage, and the separation." No harsh word about Michael ever escapes her, not even when she's persuaded to discuss this very worst conjunction of the historical and the personal.

When I visited Michael Paine, in August of 2000, at his home, in Boxborough, Massachusetts, he was quite sure about having seen the photograph of Oswald in April of 1963, but he says that he didn't remember seeing it until it was put in front of him, in 1993. In any case, he says, it was only after the assassination that he realized that his Quaker wife was "so allergic" to guns that "she would have forbidden [Oswald] to have the rifle in the house." "


Where were we in 1993? Oh yes Oliver Stones movie had caused a little something of a stir, documents were released.....

Maybe some witnesses needed to be reminded of what they had said in the past? Maybe a few statements had to be added like Michael Paine seeing the photo on Neely Street on April 2nd 1963?


Edited by Antti Hynonen
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Mr. PAINE - I asked him what he was doing, his job, and he showed me a picture on the wall, which was a piece of newspaper, I think--that is beside the point. I asked him about Russia, what he liked about.

Mr. DULLES - Could we get that picture?

Mr. PAINE - I think it was beside the point. It was a piece of newspaper showing a fashion ad, I think. I think his job was--


This exchange with Michael Paine seems to confirm for me that LHO had a photography job at one point.

Paine asks Oswald what he does for a living. Oswald points to a picture on the wall. The picture contained a piece of magazine showing a fashion ad.

I don't think that is "beside the point" as Paine says twice.

It seems to me that Oswald was skilled in photography and in Minsk, did electronics work. What's he doing cleaning coffee machines at Reily and filling book orders at the TSBD?

Steve Thomas

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