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Who Instigated the Dallas Trip, and When?


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I like Walker's letterbox in this image below. He obviously wasn't too worried about unfriendlies knowing where he lived. I guess it would have come in handy if Oswald got lost on the way.

walker.jpg

Something very similar has been sticking in my craw for quite a while, and you just gave me an excuse to unstick it:

gunsandbooks.gif

bookboxes2.gif

:blink: Everybody nice and located now? Everybody know where we are, and where the gun was found? Juuuuust checking.

And since I've brought it up, on that bottom photo, does that look like freshly laid plywood to anybody? Looks a lot like ancient beat-up dirty floor planking to me. And speaking of which, just how long could it have taken five of Truly's men to lay down plywood, anyway?

Ashton

Edited by Ashton Gray
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And since I've brought it up, on that bottom photo, does that look like freshly laid plywood to anybody? Looks a lot like ancient beat-up dirty floor planking to me. And speaking of which, just how long could it have taken five of Truly's men to lay down plywood, anyway?

Ashton

Because everything's suspicious in Buff Land.

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I like Walker's letterbox in this image below. He obviously wasn't too worried about unfriendlies knowing where he lived. I guess it would have come in handy if Oswald got lost on the way.

walker.jpg

Something very similar has been sticking in my craw for quite a while, and you just gave me an excuse to unstick it:

gunsandbooks.gif

bookboxes2.gif

:blink: Everybody nice and located now? Everybody know where we are, and where the gun was found? Juuuuust checking.

And since I've brought it up, on that bottom photo, does that look like freshly laid plywood to anybody? Looks a lot like ancient beat-up dirty floor planking to me. And speaking of which, just how long could it have taken five of Truly's men to lay down plywood, anyway?

Ashton

The sniper nest, in SE corner, did not have plywood yet.

The abandoned gun was found in NW corner, also without plywood.

Jack

Edited by Jack White
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....such a timeline, if you had come up with it back in the 60s or 70s would have earned you a bullet in the head or something of that sort....good work. Garrison could have used that timeline! He knew some of this, not all. I believe there are a few other pieces that can fit into this, will have a look.... I love the flight manifest on April 8!...I guess they were just going ice skating.

Ya, ice skating with Dave Ferrie. That was his original cover story, (for being in Tx. at the time around the assassination) Then it became duck hunting, until he remembered he forget to take a rifle :blink:

It seems to me besides filling in any additional items, and maybe extending it a bit longer in time, it would be good to make a list of the persons and list under them their associations with others. DeM, for example, knew Dulles and Poppy. Etc.

I find DeM's "suicide" on of the strangest in this case. He had already met with one researcher and was about to meet with - (HSCA investigator)- Gaeton Fonzi and just decided he could not handle Fonzi's questions and so instead blew his brains out? I don't buy it? Anone else?

Dawn

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As do his famous words... "My God, THEY're going to kill us all!"

I have always taken those famous words to show that Connally KNEW who was going to be killed on that fatal Friday. The big surprise was when he got shot too. Thus the "slip". Connally supported the WC nonsense but went to his grave saying he was not hit by the same bullet that went thru "JFK's back out his neck- (hung in mid air 1.5 seconds :blink:)- and then hit Connally in several areas, including ribs, wrist , all of which have bone.

So while Connally supported the SBT he also, through his own words ( "heard it,..bullets travel faster than speed of sound... so I could not have been hit by it")- totally dismissed it! He knew before and he certainly knew after.

Dawn

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Some have speculated that it was a stalling tactic to give time

to manipulate the casket and body, perhaps even transferring

it to another plane via a body bag.

On the other hand, it may have been just to "rub it in" to the

Kennedy crowd that he had pulled it off.

Jack

David Lifton makes an excellent case for body and casket switching in Best Evidence.

If LBJ really thought there was some international (Cuba, USSR) conspiracy afoot, why the hell would he hang around there waiting all day to be sworn in? LBJ's insistance that Jackie be at his side gave them ample opportunity to make the switch as this was the ONLY time Jackie left her husband's body.

Dawn

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  • 5 years later...
Guest Tom Scully

The DFW area was a vast, sprawling metropolitan area, even 50 years ago, but Gladys Johnson emphasized to Joe Ball of the WC that Lee Harvey Oswald seemed to have narrowed down the bus route to his "job" fully three weeks before he even applied for work at the TSBD.:

Some minutiae that the WC seems to have ignored or overlooked.:

http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol10/page293.php

...Mr. Ball.

Well, now, you knew Lee Oswald, didn't you?

Mrs. Johnson.

Well, I just knew him when I seen him. I knew him as a renter, that's all.

Mr. Ball.

Where was he when you first met him, at what place?

Mrs. Johnson.

At my home I was between serving hours and I come home for relaxation and to kind of help out. I cooperate in keeping the house and seeing after it, too, and I had returned home that afternoon and he room for rent Sign--the first time that he came by, I happened to have just rented the last room that one time. Occasionally, I will have them full and then they Just go vacant; people just come in and out, stay a week and then are gone, anyway, at that time, I didn't have a room.

Mr. Ball.

The first time he came to see you?

Mrs. Johnson.

Yes; that's something about 3 weeks before he came back.

Mr. Ball.

This was 1026 North Beckley?

Mrs. Johnson.

Yes.

Mr. Ball.

He talked to you?

Mrs. Johnson.

Yes ; the first time and the last time; the first time, he told me he wanted a room and I told him I was very sorry, I Just rented the last room and he said he was very sorry, he wanted to get near his work and he didn't have a car and it being on the bus line, he was sorry he missed it. ....

Was Oswald really very sorry to have missed out on renting a room from Gladys Johnson, as she claimed, as early as on 23 September? Her answers are odd and Joe Ball showed no interest in Johnson's claim that Oswald was "very sorry" as many as three weeks before he applied for work at the TSBD.

Also, it never seemed a problem for the WC that so many of its "key witnesses were....well, a bit odd!

http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol10/page298.php

...Mr. Ball.

Miss Earlene Roberts was your housekeeper at this time?

Mrs. Johnson.

Yes, she was.

Mr. Ball.

How long have you known her?

Mrs. Johnson.

I have known Mrs. Roberts, oh, I guess it was 6 years, something like that, 6 years.

Mr. Ball.

Where did you fist meet her?

Mrs. Johnson.

I hired her as a housekeeper.

Mr. Ball.

At 1026 North Beckley?

Mr. Ball.

Has she been working for you for that period of time?

Mrs. Johnson.

No, sir; I let Mrs. Roberts go a time or two, then I would hire her back.

Mr. Ball.

there some reason why you let her go?

Mrs. Johnson.

Well, she would just get to being disagreeable with renters and I don't know, she has a lot of handicaps. She has an overweight problem and she has some habits that some people have to understand to tolerate.

Mr. Ball.

What are they?

Mrs. Johnson.

Talking just sitting down and making up tales, you know, have you ever seen people like that? Just have a creative mind, there's nothing to it, and just make up and keep talking until she just makes a lie out of it. Listen, I'm telling you the truth and this isn't to go any further, understand that? You have to know these things because you are going to question this lady. I will tell you, she's just as intelligent---I think she is a person that doesn't mean to do that but she just does it automatically. It seems as though that she, oh, I don't know, wants to be attractive or something at time. I just don't know; I don't understand it myself. I only wish I did.

Mr. Ball.

She was working for you in October and November while Oswald was a renter with you?

Mrs. Johnson.

Yes, she was. This Saturday night will be 3 weeks she left.

Mr. Ball.

She quit 3 weeks ago?

Mrs. Johnson.

Yes, sir; I didn't know she was going.

Mr. Ball.

Where did she go?

Mrs. Johnson.

I do not know. I called her sister to try to find out. I don't think she knows.

Mr. Ball.

Who is her sister?

Mrs. Johnson.

Mrs. Bertha Cheek....

And....

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=96314&relPageId=6

...During 1959 or 1960, LYNCH managed a rooming house at 5212 Gaston Avenue, Dallas, Texas, which was owned by Mrs. Bertha Cheek. Mrs. Cheek's sister, a Mrs. Johnson, also helped in running this establishment.

From the pictures of Mrs. Johnson seen on television, LYNCH believes that she is Mrs. A.C. Johnson, renter of the room to Lee Harvey Oswald....

....LYNCH indicated both Mrs. Johnson and Mrs. Cheek have received mental care in the past,.....

So every WC witness was of rock solid reliability in their testimony, except perhaps, Helen Markham (but only off the record) and the even more important witnesses, Johnson and Roberts.

A read of Bertha Cheek's tesitmony leaves the obvious impression that she is crazed, but nonetheless high functioning, in some facets of her testimony and her life,

http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol13/page382.php

....just as Nancy Perrin Rich seemed to have been.

http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol14/page330.php

And even Lyndon Johnson seemed to be, for that matter. The only thing we can know for certain is that Lee Harvey Oswald received no official, reliable investigation, hearings, or conclusions as to his innocence or his guilt.

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By co-incidence today I noticed a small paragraph in Anthony Summers 'The Kennedy Conspiracy' book

In the 'Sources and Notes' chapter on P586 there is a reference to the April 24th edition of the Dallas Times-Herald reporting a speech LBJ gave the previous evening predicting the President would visit Dallas sometime soon.

It correllates with P262 of the same book.

The same day as the newspaper article was printed Oswald set off for New Orleans.

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I raised this question in a related thread in the Watergate forum, being posed now as a few related questions: Who first planted the idea of a trip to Dallas and when was it put on the agenda? Where and when did it actually originate?

Please note that this is not a question about any "route change." This has to go back earlier, even earlier than any "route" being planned at all. This is the genesis of the idea for Kennedy to go to Dallas that I'm asking about, and nothing else.

The following is just grabbed from a reply I recently posted to Peter Lemkin in the thread in the Watergate forum, and is included with the caveat that I haven't done any in-depth looking, and am hoping somebody might have, or be able to find, an answer:

  • The one question of whether Kennedy had been set up to go to Dallas prior to 14 October 1963 or not is absolutely crucial. Central. Pivotal. That's the tea party with Ruth Hyde Paine and Marina and Linnie Mae Frazier after which Paine does the set-up for Oswald being hired at the TSBD.
    If plans for Kennedy to go to Dallas were made prior to 14 October 1963, that's the end of all "lone assassin" theories. Their dust can be put into an urn and scattered at sea, and the JFK Assassination forum will be entirely deloused of that whole faction of disinformation scum.
    There also would be some relevance and point of reference to the "route change" that would then fit into a whole.
    We'd also then know that the Paine track will connect with the instigators for the Dallas trip somewhere, somehow, and you're on the hot trail. It might even run into Southwestern as yet another CIA front.
    Yet I go to look for that one absolutely crucial piece of information about when and by whom the decision to go to Dallas was made or planted, and can't find it anywhere. It's this giant, yawning, gaping Grand Canyon where an eight-lane highway of crucial information should be. But by God there's 40 million man-hours of arguing over crap that can never possibly have any resolution, specifically because it was set up just that way.
    It's Bedlam, just like Watergate was before somebody did an actual timeline of itonly exponentially worse in the JFK assassination case.
    I'm willing to bet the farm that the answer to my question can be found in the available literature somewhere, but I'll also predict that the date has been heavily obfuscated, since this is another primary psy-op tool... .

I hope I am very wrong about this and that somebody here does have the answer or a place to look to find it.

Ashton Gray

Hello Ashton:

I have two video interviews with John Connally on my youtube channel in which he LIES about details regarding the trip to Texas. He testified before the Warren Commission that JFK had originally wanted one dinner engagement and that he and Johnson agreed.

He said he would like to do whatever he could do that was agreeable with me; it was agreeable with me that he more or less trust me to plan the trip for him, to tell him where he would like to go. About that time some thought was being given to having four fundraising dinners. His attitude on that was he wouldn't prefer that. He felt that the appearances would not be too good, that he would much prefer to have one if we were going to have any. I told him this was entirely consistent with my own thoughts.

( 4 H 130 )

But in this interview, he claims that Kennedy wanted FIVE fundraising dinners and that he and Johnson were shocked at the prospect.

The second lie Connally tells is that the trip was Kennedy's idea, that the President hadn't visited the state since the 1960 election.

That's not true. It's common knowledge that Kennedy gave a speech on the space program at Rice University in Houston in September, 1962.

Theodore Sorensen told an interviewer that JFK had been "implored" to come to Texas.

And JFK pal George Smathers told another that Kennedy "didn't want to go to Texas".

These would seem to contradict Connally's contention that the trip was Kennedy's idea.

Sometimes I wonder if the shooting of Connally wasn't an accident.

Edited by Gil Jesus
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The evidence that Connally had foreknowledge of the assassination is weak in my opinion. His life-time testimony has been used by several conspiracy theorists as proof of conspiracy. If Connally was part of the conspiracy he would have simply followed the lone-nut theory to a tee.

Edited by Andric Perez
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The DFW area was a vast, sprawling metropolitan area, even 50 years ago, but Gladys Johnson emphasized to Joe Ball of the WC that Lee Harvey Oswald seemed to have narrowed down the bus route to his "job" fully three weeks before he even applied for work at the TSBD.:

Some minutiae that the WC seems to have ignored or overlooked.:

http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol10/page293.php

...Mr. Ball.

Well, now, you knew Lee Oswald, didn't you?

Mrs. Johnson.

Well, I just knew him when I seen him. I knew him as a renter, that's all.

Mr. Ball.

Where was he when you first met him, at what place?

Mrs. Johnson.

At my home I was between serving hours and I come home for relaxation and to kind of help out. I cooperate in keeping the house and seeing after it, too, and I had returned home that afternoon and he room for rent Sign--the first time that he came by, I happened to have just rented the last room that one time. Occasionally, I will have them full and then they Just go vacant; people just come in and out, stay a week and then are gone, anyway, at that time, I didn't have a room.

Mr. Ball.

The first time he came to see you?

Mrs. Johnson.

Yes; that's something about 3 weeks before he came back.

Mr. Ball.

This was 1026 North Beckley?

Mrs. Johnson.

Yes.

Mr. Ball.

He talked to you?

Mrs. Johnson.

Yes ; the first time and the last time; the first time, he told me he wanted a room and I told him I was very sorry, I Just rented the last room and he said he was very sorry, he wanted to get near his work and he didn't have a car and it being on the bus line, he was sorry he missed it. ....

Was Oswald really very sorry to have missed out on renting a room from Gladys Johnson, as she claimed, as early as on 23 September? Her answers are odd and Joe Ball showed no interest in Johnson's claim that Oswald was "very sorry" as many as three weeks before he applied for work at the TSBD.

[...]

Tom,

Interesting post.

And oh, BTW, I don't find Mrs. Johnson's answers to Ball's questions "odd". What do you think is so "odd" about them?

-- Odd Tommy

P.S. Even if she only advertized when she actually had a vacancy, someone could've told him that cheap rooms were often(?) available there and suggested to him that he go there and "check it out." Of course, the idea that LHO was interested in living on that particular bus line before he got the job at the TSBD is intriguing. If true, perhaps he'd already made up his mind to get a job in that part of the city,,,

Edited by Thomas Graves
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Guest Tom Scully

Tom,

The date of the front page of the Dallas Herald posted b Bernice is April 14 or 24, 1963.

Given that Gladys Johnson was the closest thing in the 20th century to Mary Surratt, here answers seemed odd to me because she was testifying she first me Oswald on or about 23 September, 1963, which is a date in conflict with the government's timeline of his movements, she claimed he was "very sorry" she had no room available because he did not drive...needed to be near the bus line to travel to his work, etc.

Then, when she was asked if he had a job, she claimed she did not know if he was employed. She interviewed him twice in three weeks, she claimed. He was going to be rooming inside the same residence where she and her family also lived. She said he referred to commuting by bus to a job, back during their first meeting in September, yet she claimed she had not asked him in either interview who his employer was.

Her answers were either inaccurate or at least ill prepared, regardless of the indifferent reaction to them by the WC's questioner. The last woman in her role in an assassination of a U.S. President had been executed; shouldn't she at least have an attorney present, especially considering her suspicious (odd) answers?

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Tom,

[...]

(H)er answers seemed odd to me because [...] she claimed he was "very sorry" she had no room available because he did not drive... (and that he) needed to be near the bus line to travel to his work, etc.

To travel to work or, as you say, to travel to his work? You make it sound as if he tried to make her think that he already had a job. And even if he did try to make her think that, maybe he did so just to improve his chances of being accepted by her as a tennant. You know, it really impresses landlords when you tell them that you've got a job. LOL. etc. Hey! Here's a thought! Maybe LHO was an intelligence operative and knew he had an assignment coming up in that part of town. In Central Dallas and/or Oak Cliff!! Like keeping an eye on Anti-Castro Cubans or pro-Castro Cubans or gunrunners or White Russians or, or...

Then, when she was asked if he had a job, she claimed she did not know if he was employed. [...]

Her saying that she did not know if he was employed could be interpreted to mean that she just assumed that he had a job and didn't ask him where it was that he worked. And this interpretation makes a lot of sense given the fact that it didn't matter anyway, did it, because when he visited her (the first time, obviously), she didn't have any rooms available! Also, what's so strange about someone trying to find a place to live on a particular bus line before they know where they're going to be working, especially if that bus line runs from a suburb of a city into the center of the city where most of the jobs are?

She interviewed him twice in three weeks, she claimed.

So?

He was going to be rooming inside the same residence where she and her family also lived.

So?

She said he referred to commuting by bus to a job, back during their first meeting in September, yet she claimed she had not asked him in either interview who his employer was.

So? See my first comment, above.

Her answers were either inaccurate ...

What did she say that could be construed as being "inaccurate"?

or at least ill prepared [...]

She sounds pretty logical and coherent to me. And she doesn't contradict herself. Ill prepared? LOL

The last woman in her role in an assassination of a U.S. President had been executed; shouldn't she at least have (had) an attorney present? [...]

Maybe she felt she had nothing to lie about. Maybe she told the truth, knew she was telling he truth, and didn't feel she needed an attorney with her during the questioning...

especially considering her suspicious (odd) answers?

Again, what odd (suspicious) answers??

--Odd Tommy

Edited by Thomas Graves
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