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It's interesting to see Von Pein coaching from the sidelines. Maybe he will suggest a euphemism for

metathesized. (sic)

It has been suggested that the Painman and BSman are one and the same.

Jack

Ice pick: 1

Jack: 0

such a sweetheart -- the dude is getting his ass kicked on the alt.conspiracy.jfk board -- so he hides out here, these trolls never change....

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Brendan Slattery says:

"...when you shamelessly accuse your own govt of the crime of the 20th century (JFK) and the 21st century (9-11), you are on shaky moral ground."

THEN COUNT ME ON SHAKY MORAL GROUND.

I'M TREMBLING.

BK

No kidding! If Brendan thinks that our government hasn't done some pretty dirty things, then he hasn't studied our history. Somebody tell him that we have even sanctioned the assassination of other leaders. To think that we have lines we won't cross is like believing a thief who says that he has morals because he only steals from strangers.

Bill Miller

Edited by Bill Miller
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Wow, Brendan, you sound reasonable for a second. Now please apologize to Jack, whose run in with an attacker is well-known in the research community...

Sure. Just as soon as he apologizes to me for being a "paid provacateur" or maintaining two forum identities. Just as soon as he apologizes to the US govt for supposedly tampering with the Zap film, faking the moon landings, or killing 3,000 fellow Americans on 9-11. Just as soon as he apologizes to the family of Nicole Brown Simpson for working on the Butcher of Brentwood's defense team.

And the beat goes on ...

BS seems to be PROUD of working to polish the govt's image,

so WHY is an apology required? Twisted logic.

A provocateur is "one who provokes", and BS certainly does that

for hours on end. Does he have a day job? Is his "work" here

part of his PR job for a client? Which agency?

I have had emails from some here who frequent ALL OF THE

JFK FORUMS, and I was given infomation that BS and DVP were

banned for using a dual identity. I cannot vouch for the validity

of the info, since I do not visit all the "trash" forums.

It is BS who should be ashamed for not knowing the facts

about the Zap film, the Apollo faked photos, and the 911

slaughter by the bonesmen. I wonder if BS is a bonesman?

As far as OJ goes, he is covering up for his son Jason.

I did not work for OJ. I assisted Groden, who owes

me $60 for film and developing because the OJ team

never paid him either. But he did get a free trip and

all expenses for a couple of weeks in LA.

Jack

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Brendan Slattery says:

"...when you shamelessly accuse your own govt of the crime of the 20th century (JFK) and the 21st century (9-11), you are on shaky moral ground."

THEN COUNT ME ON SHAKY MORAL GROUND.

I'M TREMBLING.

BK

No kidding! If Brendan thinks that our government hasn't done some pretty dirty things, then he hasn't studied our history.

When did I ever make that claim, Bill? I readily recognize historical black eyes like Japanese internment, Jim Crow, and Watergate. What does that have to do with JFK or the WTC? Just because someone or some institution has the potential to do something nefarious doesn't mean they did. Please don't tell me you think the Bush Admin killed 3,000 Americans in cold blood. If you're smart enough to see Clint Hill's shoe, you should be smart enough to see through Jack's un-American bullsh*t.

Somebody tell him that we have even sanctioned the assassination of other leaders.

Including the guy who came back from Dallas in a box.

To think that we have lines we won't cross is like believing a thief who says that he has morals because he only steals from strangers.

Oh, lines are crossed all the time, and they should be (i.e. Chile).

"Sure, we'll be dead, but at least we'll have our honor."

No thanks. I'd rather be alive.

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What a waste of time. John starts a thread on Jean Hill, and it's hijacked after less than one page. All that I learned about the JFK case in reading pages 2 and 3 is that Gary Mack's wife left him. (Reminds me of the joke about a guy whose wife ran off with his best friend. The guy didn't know it was his best friend until his wife ran off with him.)

It's time to engage once again the forum's post blocking option, which I will do forthwith. It worked great the last time I used it. As soon as I blocked all posts from David Von Pein, he disappeared. But of course that was just another coincidence, since VP actually left, or rather was banished, because he has some fear of or aversion to cameras. How lucky can we get?

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When did I ever make that claim, Bill?

I guess that - like Jack and his desire to see alteration in the assassination images - you are another one who cannot see the forest for the treees because of your desire not to want to think that certain factions of our government went out of their way to steer people away from there being a conspiracy in the murder of President Kennedy. You have become so much like Jack, but in the opposite direction that you forget what you have said ... "when you shamelessly accuse your own govt of the crime of the 20th century (JFK)".

Bill Miller

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Of necessity Gary's public persona is polished and circumspect.

But you should have been present at his disgraceful performance at the University of Texas at Arlington in Jim Marrs' JFK class in the 90s. About 40 students were present.

Jim had asked Jean Hill to do a repeat performance of her JFK witness testimony before a new group of students. Jean was always very nice and she always brought us all a batch of her freshly baked cookies. She was relating how she and Mary came downtown and sweet-talked a cop friend into letting them go down into the grassy area WHERE SPECTATORS HAD BEEN BANISHED. She told how she and Mary were there to shoot Polaroid photos of a couple of cop boyfriends, as well as the president. She said Mary took a cop photo of one of the lead motorcycles. Then as the limo came around the corner, she said she saw WHAT SHE THOUGHT WAS A SMALL WHITE DOG THAT JACKIE WAS SHOWING TO THE PRESIDENT.

At this point Gary and Dave Perry (sitting beside him) BEGAN HECKLING JEAN AND LAUGHING. Somewhat flustered at the rude interruption, Jean continued...saying that eager to get a good photo of the president, SHE AND MARY STEPPED OFF THE CURB AND INTO THE STREET. She said she was almost close enough to reach out and touch the side of the limo.

Immediately, Gary shouted loudly..."YOU ARE A xxxx, JEAN!"

She attempted to continue, but again, ..."YOU ARE A xxxx, JEAN!"

Jean burst into tears on the small stage at the front of the large classroom...and fled from the room. The students sat stunned. Jim made an apology, and tried to continue the class. Gary and Perry did not apologize. The class adjourned in disarray. Jim soon thereafter discontinued these JFK classes.

Jack

Your account of this outburst in my UTA JFK classs is accurate. I distinctly recall this episode as I was very ashamed over this kind of treatment.

As you know I always tried to treat each of the guests with due consideration and respect. This includes the former FBI fingerprint expert who fled the class when my students respectfully but persistently tried to pin him down on whether he could tell the difference in fingerprints from a dead person or a live person, a very significant question considering the funeral home director's statement that the FBI put Oswald's dead hand on the rifle. It's too bad that Gary seems to suffer memory losses such as when he failed to correct the people on that Discovery Channel documentary who pointed out an incorrect location for the "Badgeman" figure.

Gary Mack emailed Jim protesting this posting. Jim sent me the

correspondence:

QUOTE:

Gary,

My recollection is that the heckling began after the premiere of JFK but I can’t be sure. All I can tell you for certain is that both you and Dave

Perry interrupted guests, accused them of lying to their face and created such discord that I was forced to discontinue the JFK meetings at UTA. I

could not announce that these gatherings were open to all yet ask you and Dave not to attend. Likewise, I could not say these meetings were an

open forum yet tell you and Dave to be quiet. Face with this quandry, I elected to discontinue the meetings which was a shame as any open polite

discussion can only increase knowledge. I recall the time that the retired FBI fingerprint expert came to speak. The group was respectful yet

steadfast in asking him if he could tell the difference between the fingerprints of a living person and a corpse. He could not, or would not, answer

the question and left hurriedly. This kind of incisive questioning is legitimate. Shouting down and arguing with people trying to tell their story is

not. By the way, you made much fun of Jean Hill for her statement regarding the little “dog” on the seat with the Kennedys. Later, it was learned

that Jackie had been presented a stuffed “Lambchop,” so Jean Hill’s recollection was correct. Only her analytical identification was not.

Best regards,

Jim Marrs

-----Original Message-----

From: Gary Mack [mailto:GMack@jfk.org]

Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 1:39 PM

To: Jack White (E-mail); Jim Marrs (E-mail)

Cc: Gary Mack

Subject: RE: Jean Hill

How about a clue? Was it before or after the December 1991 premier of JFK?

-----Original Message-----

From: Gary Mack

Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 4:57 PM

To: Jack White (E-mail); Jim Marrs (E-mail)

Subject: Jean Hill

Would you folks please give me the date of my alleged encounter with Jean?

Was it before or after the JFK movie?

Before or after her 1992 book?

I remember Jean's first appearance back in the mid-80's when Jim coaxed her out of "retirement", but the only other time she was scheduled to appear at the class, she

backed out and never showed up.

I really have no memory of such an encounter with Jean Hill.

Thanks,

Gary Mack

Edited by Jack White
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What a waste of time. John starts a thread on Jean Hill, and it's hijacked after less than one page. All that I learned about the JFK case in reading pages 2 and 3 is that Gary Mack's wife left him. (Reminds me of the joke about a guy whose wife ran off with his best friend. The guy didn't know it was his best friend until his wife ran off with him.)

It's time to engage once again the forum's post blocking option, which I will do forthwith. It worked great the last time I used it. As soon as I blocked all posts from David Von Pein, he disappeared. But of course that was just another coincidence, since VP actually left, or rather was banished, because he has some fear of or aversion to cameras. How lucky can we get?

Back to Jean Hill,

In her audio interview broadcast by NBC approx. 51 minutes after the shooting. I believe her first since the shooting:

She describe's seeing a dog in the middle of the seat.

How close would she have to be to the limo to view this, considering Zapruder (high up) doesn't pick it up on film, and it's most likely on the seat, between two people.

chris

P.S. Anyone know why I'm limited to 63K for posting, please help. I'd like to post her audio interview as a mp3 file, for those that haven't heard it.

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I thought it would be a good idea to start a thread on Jean Hill:

Gary is in the precarious position of trying to run a neutral museum. The building is owned by Dallas County, and I’m guessing he gets some support from the city because it brings tourists to town. He really can’t lean too far into the CT camp without ruffling some of the feathers of the powers-that-be. He may have personal feelings one way or the other, but because of his position, he has to stay in the middle.

I’ve noticed that several times when I’ve posted questions on here, or Lancer, Mr. Mack has answered me in a private email. He simply gives me the answer that I’m looking for without editorial comment one way or the other. Again, very neutral. However, he does take it upon himself, unsolicited, to give me (and the rest of us) the information we seek. If he was a true LNer, he wouldn’t give us the time of day.

Personally, I’m very glad he’s around, and very glad he runs the museum in the neutral way that he does. Give everyone the information they seek, whether it’s in the form of exhibits or answers to questions asked, and let everyone make up their own mind. It’s the sign of a good educator.

Thanks Gary.

I purchased and read Jeans book at the beginning of the year (2006)

I found the book intriguing as it gives the reader an insight on how (in this case) one of the witness’s life was affected by being in Dealy Plaza on that fateful day.

Apparently Jeans account of that six seconds (or nine) of her life has come under fire due to the fact that her recollections had changed slightly over the years. So what most people’s recollections change slightly over time especially when you consider the very short time frame.

I remember during one of the many re-profiling and problem solving exercises I have sat through in the recent past, a particular exercise had a profound affect on me.

A drawing was shown to us on an over-head projector for a few seconds. When it was removed the class was asked individually to describe what they saw. The people present described seeing either an old or young women. As I saw old women I immediately (in my mind) dismissed the people who said they saw a young women.

We were told that it was a normal reaction to see one or the other. This was not good enough for me until an instructor showed me the young woman’s face line by line.

Jean was for most of her life a lone parent who brought up two children as well as teaching primary school for most of her working life. A full and productive life.

The late Jean Hill was in my opinion a ‘Good American’

Chris Brown

Liverpool England.

JWK

P.S. I was down there a month or so ago, I saw a large and complicated flow chart in the gift shop. It showed who knew who and who was connected to what, and so on. I couldn't buy it, and only had a few minutes to look at it. Has anyone seen this chart? If so, just how accurate is it?

Of necessity Gary's public persona is polished and circumspect.

But you should have been present at his disgraceful performance at the University of Texas at Arlington in Jim Marrs' JFK class in the 90s. About 40 students were present.

Jim had asked Jean Hill to do a repeat performance of her JFK witness testimony before a new group of students. Jean was always very nice and she always brought us all a batch of her freshly baked cookies. She was relating how she and Mary came downtown and sweet-talked a cop friend into letting them go down into the grassy area WHERE SPECTATORS HAD BEEN BANISHED. She told how she and Mary were there to shoot Polaroid photos of a couple of cop boyfriends, as well as the president. She said Mary took a cop photo of one of the lead motorcycles. Then as the limo came around the corner, she said she saw WHAT SHE THOUGHT WAS A SMALL WHITE DOG THAT JACKIE WAS SHOWING TO THE PRESIDENT.

At this point Gary and Dave Perry (sitting beside him) BEGAN HECKLING JEAN AND LAUGHING. Somewhat flustered at the rude interruption, Jean continued...saying that eager to get a good photo of the president, SHE AND MARY STEPPED OFF THE CURB AND INTO THE STREET. She said she was almost close enough to reach out and touch the side of the limo.

Immediately, Gary shouted loudly..."YOU ARE A xxxx, JEAN!"

She attempted to continue, but again, ..."YOU ARE A xxxx, JEAN!"

Jean burst into tears on the small stage at the front of the large classroom...and fled from the room. The students sat stunned. Jim made an apology, and tried to continue the class. Gary and Perry did not apologize. The class adjourned in disarray. Jim soon thereafter discontinued these JFK classes.

Jack

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  • 3 weeks later...

I thought it would be a good idea to start a thread on Jean Hill:

Gary is in the precarious position of trying to run a neutral museum. The building is owned by Dallas County, and I’m guessing he gets some support from the city because it brings tourists to town. He really can’t lean too far into the CT camp without ruffling some of the feathers of the powers-that-be. He may have personal feelings one way or the other, but because of his position, he has to stay in the middle.

I’ve noticed that several times when I’ve posted questions on here, or Lancer, Mr. Mack has answered me in a private email. He simply gives me the answer that I’m looking for without editorial comment one way or the other. Again, very neutral. However, he does take it upon himself, unsolicited, to give me (and the rest of us) the information we seek. If he was a true LNer, he wouldn’t give us the time of day.

Personally, I’m very glad he’s around, and very glad he runs the museum in the neutral way that he does. Give everyone the information they seek, whether it’s in the form of exhibits or answers to questions asked, and let everyone make up their own mind. It’s the sign of a good educator.

Thanks Gary.

I purchased and read Jeans book at the beginning of the year (2006)

I found the book intriguing as it gives the reader an insight on how (in this case) one of the witness’s life was affected by being in Dealy Plaza on that fateful day.

Apparently Jeans account of that six seconds (or nine) of her life has come under fire due to the fact that her recollections had changed slightly over the years. So what most people’s recollections change slightly over time especially when you consider the very short time frame.

I remember during one of the many re-profiling and problem solving exercises I have sat through in the recent past, a particular exercise had a profound affect on me.

A drawing was shown to us on an over-head projector for a few seconds. When it was removed the class was asked individually to describe what they saw. The people present described seeing either an old or young women. As I saw old women I immediately (in my mind) dismissed the people who said they saw a young women.

We were told that it was a normal reaction to see one or the other. This was not good enough for me until an instructor showed me the young woman’s face line by line.

Jean was for most of her life a lone parent who brought up two children as well as teaching primary school for most of her working life. A full and productive life.

The late Jean Hill was in my opinion a ‘Good American’

Chris Brown

Liverpool England.

JWK

P.S. I was down there a month or so ago, I saw a large and complicated flow chart in the gift shop. It showed who knew who and who was connected to what, and so on. I couldn't buy it, and only had a few minutes to look at it. Has anyone seen this chart? If so, just how accurate is it?

Of necessity Gary's public persona is polished and circumspect.

But you should have been present at his disgraceful performance at the University of Texas at Arlington in Jim Marrs' JFK class in the 90s. About 40 students were present.

RESEARCHERS:

Please review this exchange and Jean Hill's WBAP interviews and let's put this aspect of the operation behind us.

Jim had asked Jean Hill to do a repeat performance of her JFK witness testimony before a new group of students. Jean was always very nice and she always brought us all a batch of her freshly baked cookies. She was relating how she and Mary came downtown and sweet-talked a cop friend into letting them go down into the grassy area WHERE SPECTATORS HAD BEEN BANISHED. She told how she and Mary were there to shoot Polaroid photos of a couple of cop boyfriends, as well as the president. She said Mary took a cop photo of one of the lead motorcycles. Then as the limo came around the corner, she said she saw WHAT SHE THOUGHT WAS A SMALL WHITE DOG THAT JACKIE WAS SHOWING TO THE PRESIDENT.

It seems Jean Hill has been rehabilitated as a witness concerning her seeing what looked like a small dog when the motorcade was coming to her. Therefore , her two interviews on WBAP the day of the assassination , are further first hand evidence of other shooters on the knoll.

In the first interview:

Q: "Well, no...Where did the shots come from?"

A: (JeanHill) "The shots came from the HILL"

Q: "From the HILL"

A: (Jean Hill) Yes, ..ah..it was just east of the underpass...and WE were on the SOUTH SIDE"

In the second interview that day:

Q: "You only heard it"

A: (Jean Hill) " I only heard it...and i looked up and I saw a man running up this HILL"

What follows is the despicable behavior of Gary Mack and Dave Perry.

THE LADY TOLD HER STORY AND IT WAS THE TRUTH

How many times do some people need to hear what actually happened that day?

Peter

At this point Gary and Dave Perry (sitting beside him) BEGAN HECKLING JEAN AND LAUGHING. Somewhat flustered at the rude interruption, Jean continued...saying that eager to get a good photo of the president, SHE AND MARY STEPPED OFF THE CURB AND INTO THE STREET. She said she was almost close enough to reach out and touch the side of the limo.

Immediately, Gary shouted loudly..."YOU ARE A xxxx, JEAN!"

She attempted to continue, but again, ..."YOU ARE A xxxx, JEAN!"

Jean burst into tears on the small stage at the front of the large classroom...and fled from the room. The students sat stunned. Jim made an apology, and tried to continue the class. Gary and Perry did not apologize. The class adjourned in disarray. Jim soon thereafter discontinued these JFK classes.

Jack

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Chris D. asked:

P.S. Anyone know why I'm limited to 63K for posting, please help. I'd like to post her audio interview as a mp3 file, for those that haven't heard it.

I'm in a similar position, Chris. I have asked for help with this issue in the past - to no avail. Some seem to have an almost unlimited allotment of "global space" with which to post. One large picture posted by them can double or triple my entire allowance. You can go back and locate your previous postings - making sure that you are logged in - and you will find the option to edit them. You can reduce them in size with your own programs (back to the drawing board) - or, unfortunately - for the forum's continuity and flow - remove them completely. In this way you can recover most or all of whatever your original amount of available posting space was for your newer posts. I am not guaranteeing you will ever have enough to do certain things. Good luck.

JL

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Chris D. asked:

P.S. Anyone know why I'm limited to 63K for posting, please help. I'd like to post her audio interview as a mp3 file, for those that haven't heard it.

I'm in a similar position, Chris. I have asked for help with this issue in the past - to no avail. Some seem to have an almost unlimited allotment of "global space" with which to post. One large picture posted by them can double or triple my entire allowance. You can go back and locate your previous postings - making sure that you are logged in - and you will find the option to edit them. You can reduce them in size with your own programs (back to the drawing board) - or, unfortunately - for the forum's continuity and flow - remove them completely. In this way you can recover most or all of whatever your original amount of available posting space was for your newer posts. I am not guaranteeing you will ever have enough to do certain things. Good luck.

JL

JL,

Much appreciated.

I'll keep this in mind going forward.

If I need to post items with no compression/larger file sizes, I'll link others to a ftp site.

chris

chris

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  • 5 years later...

Jean Hill made a very important speech in November, 1991. It included the following passage:

That area (of the Dealey Plaza) is sloping so when Mary reached up to take the picture, we did get a picture of the School Book Depository. We knew that, because we had a Polaroid camera, we were going to have to be quick if we wanted to take more than one picture. So what we planned was, Mary would take the picture, I would pull it out of the camera, coat it with fixative and put it in my pocket. That way we could keep shooting. When the head shot came, Mary fell down and the film (i.e., the famous photograph) was still in the camera. When the motorcade came around, there were so many voters on the other side (of Elm Street) that I knew the President was never going to look at me, so I yelled, "Hey Mr. President, I want to take your picture!" Just then his hands came up and the shots started ringing out. Then, in half the time it takes for me to tell it, I looked across the street and I saw them shooting from the knoll. I did get the impression that day that there was more than one shooter, but I had the idea that the good guys and the bad guys were shooting at each other. I guess I was a victim of too much television, because I assumed that the good guys always shot at the bad guys. Mary was on the grass shouting, "Get down! Get down! They're shooting! They're shooting!" Nobody was moving and I looked up and saw this man, moving rather quickly in front of the School Book Depository toward the railroad tracks, heading west, toward the area where I had seen the man shooting on the knoll. So, I thought to myself, "This man is getting away. I've got to do something. I've got to catch him." I jumped out into the street. One of the motorcyclists was turning his motor, looking up and all around for the shooter, and he almost ran me over. It scared me so bad, I went back to get Mary to go with me. She was still down on the ground. I couldn't get her to go, so I left her. I ran across and went up the hill. When I got there a hand came down on my shoulder, and it was a firm grip. This man said, "You're coming with me." And I said, "No, I can't come with you, I have to get this man." I'm not very good at doing what I'm told. He showed me I.D. It said Secret Service. It looked official to me. I tried to turn away from him and he said a second time, "You're going with me." At this point, a second man came and grabbed me from the other side, and they ran their hands through my pockets. They didn't say, "Do you have the picture? Which pocket?" They just ran their hands through my pockets and took it. They both held me up here (at the shoulder near the neck) someplace, where you could hurt somebody badly - and they told me, "Smile. Act like you're with your boyfriends." But I couldn't smile because it hurt too badly. And they said, "Here we go," each one holding me by a shoulder. They took me to the Records Building and we went up to a room on the fourth floor. There were two guys sitting there on the other side of a table looking out a window that overlooked "the killing zone," where you could see all of the goings on. You got the impression that they had been sitting there for a long time. They asked me what I had seen, and it became clear that they knew what I had seen. They asked me how many shots I had heard and I told them four to six. And they said, "No, you didn't. There were three shots. We have three bullets and that's all we're going to commit to now." I said, "Well, I know what I heard," and they told me, "What you heard were echoes. You would be very wise to keep your mouth shut." Well, I guess I've never been that wise. I know the difference between firecrackers, echoes, and gunshots. I'm the daughter of a game ranger, and my father took me shooting all my life.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKhillJ.htm

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