Dick Bullock USMC

[Jim Hargrove]

12 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

The photo was actually taken in 1957:

The photo was taken while American-born LEE Oswald was on leave in the U.S. in November and December 58.  While on leave in November, LEE opened a bank account at the West Side State Bank in Ft. Worth and listed his address as the Marine Corps Air Station in El Toro.

At the same time, HARVEY Oswald  was becoming very friendly with Sergeant Nelson Delgado at MACS 9 in Santa Ana, CA. Delgado told the Warren Commission that he and Oswald talked continuously about Castro, Cuba, and the Dominican Republic.  Delgado, Sergeant Erwin Lewis, Sergeant Camilous Brown, Buddy Simco, Mack Osborne, Neil Tessem, Henry Roussel, Robert Allen, and Paul Hickey all knew and associated with HARVEY Oswald in November and December, 1958--while LEE Oswald was either aboard ship en route to the USA (arrived 11/15/58) or on leave in Texas (returned to El Toro on 12/22/58).

The Warren Commission either mistakenly or deliberately considered the bases at El Toro and Santa Ana as one unit, when they were actually different facilities located about ten miles apart.

http://harveyandlee.net/Marines/Marines.html

Edited June 27, 2018 by Jim Hargrove
More info about photo

[John Butler]

Jim,

Thanks for your response.  I don't know how to look at the Oswald you posted.  This photo has always stumped me.  It is out of tune with most other photos of Oswald (I'm using Oswald here for both Lee and Harvey).  The photo has been edited to some extent.  So, I don't know.

Here's something really out of the wild.  When I read Bullock's description of "Ozzie" I immediately saw Steve Landesberg.  I don't know Landesberg.  I don't know if he was a Marine.  I don't know if he was with Oswald at Atsugi.  It is a wild leap with little to back it up.

Landesberg was said to be in New York with Lee Oswald in 1961 while Harvey was in Minsk.  Landesberg has a similar appearance to Lee Oswald.  His individual features can be described similarly to Lee Oswald.  It is not close if you compare photos.  He has earlobes where the lobeless Lee Oswald does not.  I not so sure of my identification of lobeless, high school yearbook Lee Oswald due to something David Josephs posted. 

If John Pic is not identifying Lee Oswald, his brother, from the various photos presented to him by the Warren Commission then that can be considered an agreement with my position that Lee Oswald was almost entirely edited out of the photo record.  Many of the photos of Lee were edited into Harvey.  It is just the kind of thing cover up specialists would come up with.  They had control of nearly all of those photos.

I'll have to think about this.  Anyway thanks again.  

 

Edited June 27, 2018 by John Butler

[John Butler]

David Joseph,

Your posting is an excellent piece of work.  I have seen photos I have not seen before.

Your posting of the above and John Pic's response to it has sent me into a loop.  If John Pic did not recognize this high school student as his brother Lee Oswald then who is this student? 

Is there any chance that John Pic was pulling people's legs on this or other identifications of his brother Lee?

Could you post a hi-res of the Oswald standing by a creek or stream bank without a shirt.  The one that is labelled 1960-61 5'8" and 135 lbs?

 

Edited June 27, 2018 by John Butler

[Jim Hargrove]

On 6/26/2018 at 7:50 PM, John Butler said:

Jim,

Thanks for your response.  I don't know how to look at the Oswald you posted.  This photo has always stumped me.  It is out of tune with most other photos of Oswald (I'm using Oswald here for both Lee and Harvey).  The photo has been edited to some extent.  So, I don't know.

Here's something really out of the wild.  When I read Bullock's description of "Ozzie" I immediately saw Steve Landesberg.  I don't know Landesberg.  I don't know if he was a Marine.  I don't know if he was with Oswald at Atsugi.  It is a wild leap with little to back it up.

Landesberg was said to be in New York with Lee Oswald in 1961 while Harvey was in Minsk.  Landesberg has a similar appearance to Lee Oswald.  His individual features can be described similarly to Lee Oswald.  It is not close if you compare photos.  He has earlobes where the lobeless Lee Oswald does not.  I not so sure of my identification of lobeless, high school yearbook Lee Oswald due to something David Josephs posted. 

If John Pic is not identifying Lee Oswald, his brother, from the various photos presented to him by the Warren Commission then that can be considered an agreement with my position that Lee Oswald was almost entirely edited out of the photo record.  Many of the photos of Lee were edited into Harvey.  It is just the kind of thing cover up specialists would come up with.  They had control of nearly all of those photos.

I'll have to think about this.  Anyway thanks again.  

 

John,

The photo was scanned directly from the lithographic half-tone in Robert’s book, so there will be some artifacts.  Do you have another reason to suspect it is edited?

John believes Stephen Richard Landesberg (the actor) spent three years in the Marines sometime during the period of 1954 (when he graduated from high school) and 1961, so the dates certainly could overlap.  It’s an interesting thought,  though I’m not sure how to take it much farther.  Have you read John Armstrong’s write-up on the two Landesbergs?

http://harveyandlee.net/Landesberg/Landesbergs.html

[W. Tracy Parnell]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Have you read John Armstrong’s write-up on the two Landesbergs?

Please don't waste any time on the "two Landesberg" thing. There certainly were 2 Steve (Stephen) Landesbergs, but that fact has absolutely nothing to do with LHO or the JFK case:

http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/2017/01/the-hoaxster-and-conspiracy-theorists.html

http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/2017/01/armstrong-evolving-landesberg-theory.html

 

[John Butler]

Jim,

Thanks for your response.  It is always great to hear from you.

It is the hair pattern.  You can't find another photo of Oswald, Harvey or Lee, that has that hair pattern.  The mouth and eyes may be touched up with paint.  There is extra shadow under the chin.  The chin itself is broad and seems to be narrowed to be a narrower chin.

Altogether, any image I have been able to find of this photo is of low quality.  Generally, that is a sign that low quality may be hiding photo editing.  Particularly, when you pick up these images from Google Images.  I really don't have a good source for imagery.  Many of the photos on the internet have been edited one way or another.  Older first generation copies may not have this editing.  Since, I don't have 1st gen copies I make this statement lightly.

As far as the two Landesbergs go, I have read some literature on that.  It didn't seem to be that important.  I'm not saying Steve Landesberg is an Oswald Project member.  I am just voicing a wild thought.  Some times these wild thoughts pay off, most of the time not.  Generally, I don't toss the idea away until I have looked at it for some time.

A good example of this kind of research, taking a long time to review something, can be exemplified by Altgens 7 where after 3 years of looking at the photo I noticed that there are no motorbikes in the photo and there should be at that time according to other media.

It is just an odd thought I had in reading Bullock's description of "Ozzie".  Again I will say there are no Oswald photos with glasses.  After saying things like that, someone comes up and shows me to be wrong.  No problem, Crow has been on the menu many times.

 

Edited June 28, 2018 by John Butler

[John Butler]

Tracy,

I am not really interested in Two Landesbergs.  I will admit to an interest in Steve Landesberg the actor because of the information that Landesberg and Oswald were together in New York in 1961 and that he was a Marine.  Is it your opinion that info is false? 

[W. Tracy Parnell]

1 hour ago, John Butler said:

Tracy,

I am not really interested in Two Landesbergs.  I will admit to an interest in Steve Landesberg the actor because of the information that Landesberg and Oswald were together in New York in 1961 and that he was a Marine.  Is it your opinion that info is false? 

I assume you are referring to the claims made by John Armstrong regarding Landesberg. Yes, I believe those claims are completely baseless. I researched the subject and wrote two articles (linked in an above post) explaining why I believe that. It is admittedly quite a slog to go through all of the material there, but perhaps you could skim through it because it is revealing as far as Armstrong's research methods. When I did the articles his reaction was to "double down" and his claims, as I document in "John Armstrong's Evolving Landesberg Theory," became even more outlandish. Ultimately, he was forced to make changes to the H&L website (or Jim H. was) and retract some of the material.

[John Butler]

Thanks for your reply Tracy,

To me John Armstrong is an honest fellow.  Jim Hargroves is also.  Although I don't agree with a few individual items, mostly to do with the identification of various Oswalds, on the whole their theory is convincing based on what I am seeing in the visual record.

Thanks for your reply.

[Jim Hargrove]

3 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Please don't waste any time on the "two Landesberg" thing. There certainly were 2 Steve (Stephen) Landesbergs, but that fact has absolutely nothing to do with LHO or the JFK case:

Oh, brother!  Mr. Parnell supports the Warren Commission and says the Commission’s report told us the truth about the assassination of JFK!!  Keep that in mind as you read how Mr. Parnell claims to be a better a researcher than John Armstrong (on just about any subject imaginable).

The question of Landesberg and Oswald was addressed by the well-respected researcher Robert Charles-Dunne in a note he wrote to me nearly two decades ago. I'm sure he wouldn't mind if I re-posted it.  Read what RCD had to say about Oswald and Landesberg way back then.  (Sorry about some scanning oddities.  I lost this note many years ago but found it at the online John Armstrong Collection at Baylor University).

 

The story is complicated enormously because there were two Steven Landesberg’s politically active in New York City at about the same time, but don’t let Mr. Parnell pull the wool over your eyes.  There’s far more to this story than he wants you to know.

For the real story on the Steve Landesbergs and Lee Harvey Oswald, see:

http://harveyandlee.net/Landesberg/Landesbergs.html

[W. Tracy Parnell]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

There’s far more to this story than he wants you to know.

No, in fact I advise everyone to read the H&L page and then read my site and make up their own minds. IMO, the fact that Armstrong had to reverse himself on some issues related to the Landesberg case should give pause to those who are really after the truth.

[Jim Hargrove]

6 hours ago, John Butler said:

Jim,

Thanks for your response.  It is always great to hear from you.

It is the hair pattern.  You can't find another photo of Oswald, Harvey or Lee, that has that hair pattern.  The mouth and eyes may be touched up with paint.  There is extra shadow under the chin.  The chin itself is broad and seems to be narrowed to be a narrower chin.

I’m not so sure, John.  Here are a collection of “LHO” mugshuts from the Harvey and Lee homepage.  From other biographical clues, and assuming the photographic record hasn’t been corrupted, the top row of pictures should show American-born LEE Oswald.  The bottom row should show Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald.

 

Look at the top images (which should be LEE) for 1956, 1957, and 1958.  Thee seems to be a fast developing widow’s peak in his hairline that seems to be progressing during those years.  In 1963, Lee HARVEY Oswald clearly did not have such a pronounced widow’s peak.  The top picture for 1959 is the anomaly in this list; either it is not LEE, or his hairline has been retouched, or he’s wearing a toupee, don’t you think?

The chin issues are stunning!  Jack White wrote about them at length in the poster he and JA worked up called "The Evolution of Lee Harvey Oswald."  It's really kind of laughable how they go from wide to pointed and so on.

[John Butler]

Thanks Jim,

This is a great photo opportunity to express my thoughts on Oswalds.  This looks like some of the work of the late, great Jack White.  If this isn’t him then let me know who, please.

I take it that the top row is Lee Oswald and the bottom row is Harvey Oswald.  There are some changes I would make based on the following:

1. Harvey has earlobes.  This is from his mugshot at the Dallas Police Station. This is a main difference with Lee.  Lee does not have earlobes.  This comes from a high school picture.  All people either have earlobes or not so this trait must be used in conjunction with others.

2. Harvey’s left ear has a unique trait that is missing in Lee Oswald.  This is a distinctive two bends in the upper rim of the left ear.  If you find this missing for Harvey Oswald then the person is not Harvey Oswald.

3. Harvey has a narrow nose whereas Lee has a fairly broad nose.

4. Harvey has a narrow chin while Lee has a broad but weak (short) chin.

5. Harvey has a wide neck when viewed from the front.  Lee’s neck is less broad.

6. Harvey as described by some has abnormally sloping shoulders

7. Harvey has a first, left, upper incisor that is shorter then the rest.  This is seen in his exhumation photos in 1961.  Lee may not have this feature.  Another characteristic of Lee Oswald is he may have been long headed.  This is from a 13-inch measurement for his head in a Marine photo.

These character traits will separate Lee and Harvey.  The first 5 are best to use.  Based on these I would take this consideration of the Lee row of photos:

1. 1952 Lee and reclassify as Harvey.

2. 1954 Lee I don’t know what to do with except tentatively assign as Lee

3. 1956 and 1959 Lees are composites of Lee made into Harvey.  This is based upon their narrow chins and narrow noses.  1957 and 1958 Lees go together based on their somewhat broad noses and broad chins.  These are the only two possible photos of Lee.

4. If you get better enlarged photos of 1956 and 1959 you will see both have the characteristic left ear traits of Harvey.

The hair pattern of 1956 doesn’t match the patterns of 1958 and 1959.  The closest match is 1956 and 1958 but, there are no other matching features.  1956 can not be 1959, unless 1959 did the impossible.  Regrow hair that he has lost in 1956.

The Harvey row:

1. 1956 Harvey should be removed from the Harvey row and reassigned to the Lee row.  If you compare Jack’s 1956 Lee with 1956 Harvey then you will see that Harvey has more hair.  They are not the same in hair pattern.

2. 1956 Harvey is the only good photo of the original Lee Harvey Oswald.  This photo (due to being in the public record) was to difficult to seize and change into Harvey.  Lee’s characteristics are based on this photo.  These are:

1. Ears that do not have earlobes

2. Long somewhat broad nose

3. A short but, broad chin   

4. These traits best match 1957 and 1958 in the Lee row

1. I don’t categorize 1953 Harvey as Harvey even though he was identified as such by a school official.  He has earlobes, a broad nose, a broad chin narrowed by alteration, and he lacks the characteristic two bends in the upper rim of his left ear.  This last is a trait that only Harvey has.  You can see these traits in the mugshot of real Harvey at the Dallas Police station.

2.  1958-  If this was a better photo you could determine whether the Marine had earlobes.  He has a long somewhat broad nose and a weak chin.  These are traits of Lee not Harvey.  But, still this identification is iffy.   

This is a lot to drop on someone.  But, your thoughts are always appreciated.  I think it is a better way to identify Oswalds.  I have used these techniques on photos that I would have sworn prior was one or the other of the Oswalds but, the traits said something differetn.  In a photo with no clear alterations one has to go along with these traits.

The mugshot of Harvey at the Dallas Police Station and the High School photo of Lee (clearly named in the yearbook) where a girl is pointing at him are what is used for the basic traits to identify Lee and Harvey.

Edited June 28, 2018 by John Butler

[Jim Hargrove]

Fascinating, John.  Have you been working on this long?

The mughsots in the chart above were extracted from the much larger printed wall poster called "The Evolution of Lee Harvey Oswald." Jack did the graphics on both, with JA’s assistance.  Jack White believed, by the way, that the 1956 image of LEE (top row of chart) was actually a pencil drawing. Sandy Larsen, active here, says that the giveaway of the pencil rendering is in the way the hair is drawn.  I only had the pleasure of meeting Jack White on two occasions, but I still really miss him.

John made the selection of mugshots, and the identification of each as either Harvey or Lee, based  on all the available information available to him, which of course included biographical data.  Obviously, though, it is hardly impossible that images of the two were deliberately or accidentally transposed.  So your observations are of great interest to me.

I’ve got several questions for you, but before asking them, I wonder if you have seen the big “Evolution” of LHO chart.  A copy has been hanging on my home office door for roughly twenty years.  I took the best shot of it I could, but it often gets compressed online.  If you  enlarge the image below, it should be possible to read the captions.  Here ‘tis:

 

[John Butler]

Jim,

I have seen this wall chart before.  Generally, it was not in a posting one could work with.  I will try a screen capture and enlargement and see if I can do anything with it. 

I have radical website.  I have things posted there that most people will have trouble accepting.  I have worked for some time trying to identify various Oswalds.  My best attempt so far is on that website.   Here is a link to the Oswald Project.

http://jfkrunningthegauntlet.com/tag/oswald-project/

The HSCA employed "forensic" anthropologists to identify various Oswalds.  After using various scientific strategies and techniques their conclusion was that all of the photos of record show only Lee Harvey Oswald.  That is the person we would call Harvey Oswald.  I almost agree with them.  A few photos missed the dragnet of the cover-up specialists.  One is the high school photo of Lee Harvey Oswald (the original) and several others that are questionable.

The Oswald Project is in 5 parts covering perhaps about 75 pages of text and photos.  It is my best shot at understanding who Lee Harvey Oswald and his double Harvey were just based on the photo record.  I can't say all is correct.  It is just my best shot.  Some things could change with new information.

The cover up specialist used the same traits that I have identified to do there cover up work.  So, I am fairly confident of the characteristics I have analyzed in the Dallas Police mugshot and the high school photo. 

Edited June 29, 2018 by John Butler