Secret Service Behavior

[Peter McGuire]

I have always been troubled by the fact that Greer did not speed away after the shooting began and that

Kellerman did not move to protect the President and Governor. Isn't that what Agents are supposed to do?

It seems to me from the Zapruder film that both the Agents are looking back until the fatal shot, then turn around and speed away. Senator Yarbourogh and Mrs. Kennedy both made comments about Greer's actions. Yarbourogh suggested more training and Mrs. Kennedy hoped the next President would get a "better driver".

There is also the film showing Rybka and another Agent being waived off the limo at Love Field. These two key Agents were left at the airport and would have played an important role in protecting the President.

Finally, if you look at the photos of the motorcade at the time of the first shot, you can see that while there is a lot of protection around the other cars, there is none around the Presidents limousine.

[John Balch]

Greer has been universally panned as the driver you'd want in a situation like that. I've always felt that way, but recently had another angle thrown at me, I forget where. So many people, in and around the motorcade, testified that they thought shots where coming from behind the picket fence. Others alluded to more than one shooter. If Greer thought he was driving into an ambush, it probably did give him pause. With shots from the rear, you can hit the accelerator, but shots from the front? The guy blew it, of that there's no doubt, but maybe this would explain his paralysis. Also, was he one of the Secret Service agents that went out drinking until the wee hours? This, too, might provide an explaination of why the guy was so stunned.

[Ron Ecker]

If Greer thought he might be driving into an ambush, and that gave him pause, why didn't he say so? Instead he chose to categorically lie under oath by saying he stepped on the gas and got out of there as soon as he knew what was happening. The WC had the Z film and knew Greer was lying to their faces.

More incriminating than anything Greer did in Dealey Plaza is what he did that evening. He was given JFK's bagged clothes at Parkland, and took the clothes with him on AF1. He drove the body from Andrews to Bethesda. But did he deliver the clothes at Bethesda for the autopsy? No, he gave the clothes to agent Rybka at Andrews and told him to go put them in a White House locker. Finck later testified that when he asked to see the clothes during the autopsy that evening, he was told they were "not available."

IMO that is actively, knowingly taking part in the cover-up. If Greer didn't know there was a conspiracy when he left Parkland, he apparently knew it by the time the plane landed at Andrews and he was ready to participate.

[J. William King]

Something I've always noticed from the Z film is that right after the headshot, everyone in the car except for JFK and JBK seem to be thrown forward. Whether this is due to Greer hitting the brakes, or the car slowing down, I don't know.

I'm not trying to defend Greer here, but being a car nut and driving many cars from the late 50's to mid 60's (I currently own a 1961 Olds Super 88), I know that when you stomp (as opposed to a steady increase of pressure) on the gas, there is a hesitation of a second or so when the carburator is pumping extra fuel into the engine (almost like a momentary flooding situation), and the transmission downshifts. Remember that this car spent most of it's time going very, very slow, and may have had carbon buildup, plugs that were less than "pristine" condition, and any number of tuning problems that come from spending most of it's life going 15 mph. I'll bet it was never "opened up" until that run to Parkland. The Lincoln, being as heavy as it is, may have just slowed down more than the average car at this critical point in time when Greer put the pedal to the metal.

Keep your cars in tune....it may save your life one day.

JWK

Edited July 29, 2006 by J. William King

[J. William King]

Something I've always noticed from the Z film is that right after the headshot, everyone in the car except for JFK and JBK seem to be thrown forward. Whether this is due to Greer hitting the brakes, or the car slowing down, I don't know.

This will probably prompt a spate of angry retorts...but whatever.

Do you think it's possible that the two SS agents in the front seat were ducking? Like maybe one of them said "Get down!" and they both did at the same time?

I realize that the Connallys appear to be moving forward at the same time but they *might* be ducking down in response to a command to get down, or they might just be moving down independent of the front seat occupants.

They also seem to be ducking down just as JFK's head exploded. I would duck too.

MV

That very thing crossed my mind as well, Mark. Remember that two bullet fragments were found in the front seats, the windshield was cracked on the inside, and there were dents in the chrome strip and the back of the rear view mirror. Greer and Kellerman had to have heard, and maybe even see, bullet fragments bouncing around up there, even if it was only on a subconscious level.

However, the timing of when JBC, Nellie, and the agents were the same. It could have been a combination of the car slowing down and instinctive response of the agents to duck.

JWK

[Peter McGuire]

Something I've always noticed from the Z film is that right after the headshot, everyone in the car except for JFK and JBK seem to be thrown forward. Whether this is due to Greer hitting the brakes, or the car slowing down, I don't know.

This will probably prompt a spate of angry retorts...but whatever.

Do you think it's possible that the two SS agents in the front seat were ducking? Like maybe one of them said "Get down!" and they both did at the same time?

I realize that the Connallys appear to be moving forward at the same time but they *might* be ducking down in response to a command to get down, or they might just be moving down independent of the front seat occupants.

They also seem to be ducking down just as JFK's head exploded. I would duck too.

Yes, they do look like they are "ducking down" and looking back. But weren't

they supposed to be saving the President, not themselves?

MV

That very thing crossed my mind as well, Mark. Remember that two bullet fragments were found in the front seats, the windshield was cracked on the inside, and there were dents in the chrome strip and the back of the rear view mirror. Greer and Kellerman had to have heard, and maybe even see, bullet fragments bouncing around up there, even if it was only on a subconscious level.

However, the timing of when JBC, Nellie, and the agents were the same. It could have been a combination of the car slowing down and instinctive response of the agents to duck.

JWK

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Something I've always noticed from the Z film is that right after the headshot, everyone in the car except for JFK and JBK seem to be thrown forward. Whether this is due to Greer hitting the brakes, or the car slowing down, I don't know.

This will probably prompt a spate of angry retorts...but whatever.

Do you think it's possible that the two SS agents in the front seat were ducking? Like maybe one of them said "Get down!" and they both did at the same time?

I realize that the Connallys appear to be moving forward at the same time but they *might* be ducking down in response to a command to get down, or they might just be moving down independent of the front seat occupants.

They also seem to be ducking down just as JFK's head exploded. I would duck too.

MV

You may rest assured that in addition to some "ducking" there was also some "yanking" going on.

Certainly glad to see that someone here not only apparantly has an understanding of the "basic" male instinct, but also has demonstrated the ability to apply completely independent thought, irrelvant of what we are consistantly "told" that we see in the Z-Film.

You are sooooooooooo close to the truths!

Tom

[Peter McGuire]

Something I've always noticed from the Z film is that right after the headshot, everyone in the car except for JFK and JBK seem to be thrown forward. Whether this is due to Greer hitting the brakes, or the car slowing down, I don't know.

This will probably prompt a spate of angry retorts...but whatever.

Do you think it's possible that the two SS agents in the front seat were ducking? Like maybe one of them said "Get down!" and they both did at the same time?

I realize that the Connallys appear to be moving forward at the same time but they *might* be ducking down in response to a command to get down, or they might just be moving down independent of the front seat occupants.

They also seem to be ducking down just as JFK's head exploded. I would duck too.

MV

You may rest assured that in addition to some "ducking" there was also some "yanking" going on.

Certainly glad to see that someone here not only apparantly has an understanding of the "basic" male instinct, but also has demonstrated the ability to apply completely independent thought, irrelvant of what we are consistantly "told" that we see in the Z-Film.

You are sooooooooooo close to the truths!

Thanks , Tom.

Now,

Watch this: This may bring us even closer to the truth!

http://www.video.google.com/videoplay?doci...tand+down+video

For a look at the Secret Service at Love Field.

Edited August 5, 2006 by Peter McGuire

[Jörgen Sjölén]

If Greer thought he might be driving into an ambush, and that gave him pause, why didn't he say so? Instead he chose to categorically lie under oath by saying he stepped on the gas and got out of there as soon as he knew what was happening. The WC had the Z film and knew Greer was lying to their faces.

Wouldn´t Greer have known what was happening even before the head shoot?

He would have heard the "shots" that many spectators thought where firecrackers.

Should´t he have heard both JFK and Connoly (bad spelling) beeing shot.

Connoly even yelled out, "Oh my god they are killing us all"

And then realised whats was going on?

Edited August 8, 2006 by Jörgen Sjölén

[Peter McGuire]

If Greer thought he might be driving into an ambush, and that gave him pause, why didn't he say so? Instead he chose to categorically lie under oath by saying he stepped on the gas and got out of there as soon as he knew what was happening. The WC had the Z film and knew Greer was lying to their faces.

Wouldn´t Greer have known what was happening even before the head shoot?

He would have heard the "shots" that many spectators thought where firecrackers.

Should´t he have heard both JFK and Connoly (bad spelling) beeing shot.

Connoly even yelled out, "Oh my god they are killing us all"

And then realised whats was going on?

Dear Jorgen:

Of course he would have. But this is why the plan was so successful. It is so hard to believe , even when presented with imperical evidence , that one's own government would do this to it's President. So we all say "there had to be a reason, they were hungover, hesitant or poorly trained".

Greer and the other Agents were told to behave this way. They were simply performing their job.

[John Kennedy White]

I have a hard time buying the idea that Kellerman and Greer were accomplices. Given the amount of bullets flying in to the car from all directions, it was a fluke that neither were hit.

[Paul Rigby]

If Greer thought he might be driving into an ambush, and that gave him pause, why didn't he say so? Instead he chose to categorically lie under oath by saying he stepped on the gas and got out of there as soon as he knew what was happening. The WC had the Z film and knew Greer was lying to their faces.

Wouldn´t Greer have known what was happening even before the head shoot?

He would have heard the "shots" that many spectators thought where firecrackers.

Should´t he have heard both JFK and Connoly (bad spelling) beeing shot.

Connoly even yelled out, "Oh my god they are killing us all"

And then realised whats was going on?

Dear Jorgen:

Of course he would have. But this is why the plan was so successful. It is so hard to believe , even when presented with imperical evidence , that one's own government would do this to it's President. So we all say "there had to be a reason, they were hungover, hesitant or poorly trained".

Greer and the other Agents were told to behave this way. They were simply performing their job.

Peter/Jorgen,

Not so hard to believe of the U.S. government, surely? Recall that Lincoln's bodyguard went conveniently missing just in time for John Wilkes Booth's arrival.

This assassination had rough precedent.

Paul

[Pat Speer]

Peter/Jorgen,

Not so hard to believe of the U.S. government, surely? Recall that Lincoln's bodyguard went conveniently missing just in time for John Wilkes Booth's arrival.

This assassination had rough precedent.

Paul

Both Kellerman and Greer testified about the shots in a manner that strongly suggest a conspiracy. Kellerman said there was a "flurry of shots" that came into the car at the time of the head shot. Greer said the last two shots were basically simultaneous. Both men were well aware that Oswald had a bolt action rifle that could only be fired every couple of seconds and undoubtedly knew the connotation of their testimony. As a result, we should conclude they were honest men, at least on this point.

I believe Kellerman, years later, even admitted that he suspected a conspiracy.

Edited August 28, 2006 by Pat Speer

[Shanet Clark]

I have a hard time buying the idea that Kellerman and Greer were accomplices. Given the amount of bullets flying in to the car from all directions, it was a fluke that neither were hit.

I'd have to agree here....they would have to have unusually strong nerves and almost unlimited trust in the ability of the snipers if they were 'in on it'. While I don't rule out that some SS men might have been in cahoots, I doubt the two in the car with JFK would have been or could have been. They would have worn hardhats and bulletproof vests....and been drinking while driving. Their statements on their accounts of the number and timing of bullets adds a bit to my feeling on this also. If they were told there would be a 'hit' the only way would have been to tell them it was to be at a completely different location when they were not to be so close....as some speculate about JC.

WHOA!

The slow turn, the braking, the failure to even coast at the cruising speed of a limo downhill,

the failure to secure overpasses, windows, fences, the RYBKA stand down, the POTUS in the lead car,

the braking and stopping/near stopping in the fire zone, the slow cruise after the initial throat shot to

Kennedy, the failure to etc...........

[Shanet Clark]

I have a hard time buying the idea that Kellerman and Greer were accomplices. Given the amount of bullets flying in to the car from all directions, it was a fluke that neither were hit.

I'd have to agree here....they would have to have unusually strong nerves and almost unlimited trust in the ability of the snipers if they were 'in on it'. While I don't rule out that some SS men might have been in cahoots, I doubt the two in the car with JFK would have been or could have been. They would have worn hardhats and bulletproof vests....and been drinking while driving. Their statements on their accounts of the number and timing of bullets adds a bit to my feeling on this also. If they were told there would be a 'hit' the only way would have been to tell them it was to be at a completely different location when they were not to be so close....as some speculate about JC.

WHOA!

The slow turn, the braking, the failure to even coast at the cruising speed of a limo downhill,

the failure to secure overpasses, windows, fences, the RYBKA stand down, the POTUS in the lead car,

the braking and stopping/near stopping in the fire zone, the slow cruise after the initial throat shot to

Kennedy, the failure to etc...........