Thomas H. Purvis Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 (edited) uh-uh-UH..... is that part of your, "There can be no doubt IMO"? You can prove the 3.6/18ths from the headshot, eh? If so, that IS new, you're now the only person in the world that claims the exact timing of the Moorman 5. Yes, David ... it can be mathematically proven. You would know this if you'd spend more time actually doing research instead of trolling the forums. Anthony Marsh did this study many years ago and for a brief moment I had thought he was in error, but it was I who was wrong. How did Marsh conclude the exact timing of the Moorman photo in relation to Zapruder's film, well let me make it as simple as I can ... Not only is the position of Jackie in relation to JFK important, but Marsh recognized the importance of the cycles that both Martin and Hargis were riding. You see, between Zapruder frames - those cycles are varying in the distance of their advancement to one another. In Z313 and Z314 - Martin hasn't advanced to the point of passing Moorman's location so to duplicate Mary's photo. The same can be said about Z315 and by Z316 the cycles have advanced in relation to one another too far for by then JFK would be seen through Hargis's windshield. So what Marsh did was to break up their advancement between frames into increments. (I'd have to go check, but I believe he did .10 increments) By doing so he could see that mathematically Z315.6 was when the cycles were best aligned to match that of Moorman's Polaroid. But let's not forget that the alleged 'other film' witnesses are talking about a 2 - 4 second limo stop at the moment of the head shot. 2 seconds equals 36 Zapruder frames and Marsh clearly is working within two Zapruder frames and anything beyond that isn't even worthy of discussion because of the alignment of Martin and Hargis's cycles shields to JFK. So once again I say that the Moorman photo proves beyond a doubt that any 'other film' showing JFK's limo stopped for several seconds is nothing more than a reenactment film that someone has mistaken for the real Zapruder film and /or some of them, if not all, are lying about witnessing such a film. Bill Miller regarding the limo, I've heard of a] slowdown-only, 2] less than one second stop, 3] 2 second stop -- never heard the 4 second time before. Of course all this is meaningless if what we see in Moorman 5 was around the the 2nd shot, the final head shot taking place around Z-355-60. What supports that contention is the SS/FBI reenactment, DP surveyor data .... Lying about seeing another film? Why? The point and rational of that? Its possible existence doesn't help the Z-film alteration crowd, and its definately a pain in the ass for the LNutter's... It's alleged existence advances the case not one inch.... the final head shot taking place around Z-355-60. What supports that contention is the SS/FBI reenactment, DP surveyor data .... The remaining questions being: http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z341.jpg 1. When is Z341 NOT Z341? 2. If a man falls down in the forest and there is no one there to see it, did he still fall????? What about if he "jumps" up in the air while in the forest????? How about if he "jumps" up in the air while on Elm St.???????????? 3. And lastly, exactly how fast was Clint Hill, how fast did he have to run, and how many times did he "jump"? Edited August 15, 2006 by Thomas H. Purvis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 What do YOU or ANYONE else think would happen if "the" other film showed up tomorrow? I believe it would be discredited as a 'sophisticated hoax, perpetuated by clever individuals with a deep seated need for attention/affection in their efforts to promote a 'conspiracy' - at complete odds with the official record - not worth paying $16M in tax payers dollars for -- a sham of gargantuan proportions.' Perhaps Specter would even be called upon to provide his two cents, along with Gerald Ford, Dale Myers and Gerald Posner. Maybe even Ted Kennedy - something like, 'Why some senseless individuals would continue to promote this sort of damaging hoax after all of these years escapes me. The Warren Commission demonstrated that there was no conspiracy and I am quite satisfied as to the investigation that took place at that time and its findings. These types of slanderous activities, much like that Stone film, or that insidious game released on the web, do nothing but bring pain to my family and the memory of my Brother.' - lee thanks Lee, I agree....! David One can add myself to the "agree" listing. What do YOU or ANYONE else think would happen if "the" other film showed up tomorrow? I believe it would be discredited as a 'sophisticated hoax, perpetuated by clever individuals with a deep seated need for attention/affection in their efforts to promote a 'conspiracy' - at complete odds with the official record - not worth paying $16M in tax payers dollars for -- a sham of gargantuan proportions.' Perhaps Specter would even be called upon to provide his two cents, along with Gerald Ford, Dale Myers and Gerald Posner. Maybe even Ted Kennedy - something like, 'Why some senseless individuals would continue to promote this sort of damaging hoax after all of these years escapes me. The Warren Commission demonstrated that there was no conspiracy and I am quite satisfied as to the investigation that took place at that time and its findings. These types of slanderous activities, much like that Stone film, or that insidious game released on the web, do nothing but bring pain to my family and the memory of my Brother.' - lee thanks Lee, I agree....! David One can add myself to the "agree" listing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 uh-uh-UH..... is that part of your, "There can be no doubt IMO"? You can prove the 3.6/18ths from the headshot, eh? If so, that IS new, you're now the only person in the world that claims the exact timing of the Moorman 5. Yes, David ... it can be mathematically proven. You would know this if you'd spend more time actually doing research instead of trolling the forums. Anthony Marsh did this study many years ago and for a brief moment I had thought he was in error, but it was I who was wrong. How did Marsh conclude the exact timing of the Moorman photo in relation to Zapruder's film, well let me make it as simple as I can ... Not only is the position of Jackie in relation to JFK important, but Marsh recognized the importance of the cycles that both Martin and Hargis were riding. You see, between Zapruder frames - those cycles are varying in the distance of their advancement to one another. In Z313 and Z314 - Martin hasn't advanced to the point of passing Moorman's location so to duplicate Mary's photo. The same can be said about Z315 and by Z316 the cycles have advanced in relation to one another too far for by then JFK would be seen through Hargis's windshield. So what Marsh did was to break up their advancement between frames into increments. (I'd have to go check, but I believe he did .10 increments) By doing so he could see that mathematically Z315.6 was when the cycles were best aligned to match that of Moorman's Polaroid. But let's not forget that the alleged 'other film' witnesses are talking about a 2 - 4 second limo stop at the moment of the head shot. 2 seconds equals 36 Zapruder frames and Marsh clearly is working within two Zapruder frames and anything beyond that isn't even worthy of discussion because of the alignment of Martin and Hargis's cycles shields to JFK. So once again I say that the Moorman photo proves beyond a doubt that any 'other film' showing JFK's limo stopped for several seconds is nothing more than a reenactment film that someone has mistaken for the real Zapruder film and /or some of them, if not all, are lying about witnessing such a film. Bill Miller regarding the limo, I've heard of a] slowdown-only, 2] less than one second stop, 3] 2 second stop -- never heard the 4 second time before. Of course all this is meaningless if what we see in Moorman 5 was around the the 2nd shot, the final head shot taking place around Z-355-60. What supports that contention is the SS/FBI reenactment, DP surveyor data .... Lying about seeing another film? Why? The point and rational of that? Its possible existence doesn't help the Z-film alteration crowd, and its definately a pain in the ass for the LNutter's... It's alleged existence advances the case not one inch.... the final head shot taking place around Z-355-60. What supports that contention is the SS/FBI reenactment, DP surveyor data .... The remaining questions being: http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z341.jpg 1. When is Z341 NOT Z341? 2. If a man falls down in the forest and there is no one there to see it, did he still fall????? What about if he "jumps" up in the air while in the forest????? How about if he "jumps" up in the air while on Elm St.???????????? 3. And lastly, exactly how fast was Clint Hill, how fast did he have to run, and how many times did he "jump"? Mr. ALTGENS: I was prepared to make a picture at the very instant the President was shot. I had refocused to 15 feet because I wanted a good closeup of the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and that's why I know that it would be right at 15 feet, because I had prefocused in that area, and I had my camera almost to my eye when it happened and that's as far as I got with my camera. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z341.jpg ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mr. ALTGENS: He seemed as if at the time----well, he was in a position-- sort of immobile. He wasn't upright He was at an angle but when it hit him, it seemed to have just lodged--it seemed as if he were hung up on a seat button or something like that. It knocked him just enough forward that he came right on down. There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing, so much so that it indicated to me that the shot came out of the left side of his head. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For those unaware of "history", the frame of the Z-film which showed Mr. Altgens standing with the camera to his eye and about to take the photo, appeared in various newspapers throughout the country on either 11/23/63 or 11/24/63. (can not recall which date that it appeared in the Mobile, AL "Register". This is of course why the WC made an attemp to NOT call Mr. Altgens to testify, as well as NOT publish any copies of the Z-film past the Z334 mark, prior to Mr. Altgens becoming visible in the film, as well as NOT show Mr. Altgens frames of the film which clearly demonstrated his location on Elm St. in exact relationship to the yellow mark on the street curb. This is also the reasoning as to why the WC made their completely phony "AP" photographer re-enactment photo in which they moved the position of the re-enactment camera farther up Elm St. in order to make it appear that Mr. Altgens was in fact standing close to the impact point of the Z313/second shot impact to the head of JFK. http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol18_0054a.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This thing truly is not that difficult to understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David G. Healy Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 uh-uh-UH..... is that part of your, "There can be no doubt IMO"? You can prove the 3.6/18ths from the headshot, eh? If so, that IS new, you're now the only person in the world that claims the exact timing of the Moorman 5. Yes, David ... it can be mathematically proven. You would know this if you'd spend more time actually doing research instead of trolling the forums. Anthony Marsh did this study many years ago and for a brief moment I had thought he was in error, but it was I who was wrong. How did Marsh conclude the exact timing of the Moorman photo in relation to Zapruder's film, well let me make it as simple as I can ... Not only is the position of Jackie in relation to JFK important, but Marsh recognized the importance of the cycles that both Martin and Hargis were riding. You see, between Zapruder frames - those cycles are varying in the distance of their advancement to one another. In Z313 and Z314 - Martin hasn't advanced to the point of passing Moorman's location so to duplicate Mary's photo. The same can be said about Z315 and by Z316 the cycles have advanced in relation to one another too far for by then JFK would be seen through Hargis's windshield. So what Marsh did was to break up their advancement between frames into increments. (I'd have to go check, but I believe he did .10 increments) By doing so he could see that mathematically Z315.6 was when the cycles were best aligned to match that of Moorman's Polaroid. But let's not forget that the alleged 'other film' witnesses are talking about a 2 - 4 second limo stop at the moment of the head shot. 2 seconds equals 36 Zapruder frames and Marsh clearly is working within two Zapruder frames and anything beyond that isn't even worthy of discussion because of the alignment of Martin and Hargis's cycles shields to JFK. So once again I say that the Moorman photo proves beyond a doubt that any 'other film' showing JFK's limo stopped for several seconds is nothing more than a reenactment film that someone has mistaken for the real Zapruder film and /or some of them, if not all, are lying about witnessing such a film. Bill Miller regarding the limo, I've heard of a] slowdown-only, 2] less than one second stop, 3] 2 second stop -- never heard the 4 second time before. Of course all this is meaningless if what we see in Moorman 5 was around the the 2nd shot, the final head shot taking place around Z-355-60. What supports that contention is the SS/FBI reenactment, DP surveyor data .... Lying about seeing another film? Why? The point and rational of that? Its possible existence doesn't help the Z-film alteration crowd, and its definately a pain in the ass for the LNutter's... It's alleged existence advances the case not one inch.... the final head shot taking place around Z-355-60. What supports that contention is the SS/FBI reenactment, DP surveyor data .... The remaining questions being: http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z341.jpg 1. When is Z341 NOT Z341? 2. If a man falls down in the forest and there is no one there to see it, did he still fall????? What about if he "jumps" up in the air while in the forest????? How about if he "jumps" up in the air while on Elm St.???????????? 3. And lastly, exactly how fast was Clint Hill, how fast did he have to run, and how many times did he "jump"? Mr. ALTGENS: I was prepared to make a picture at the very instant the President was shot. I had refocused to 15 feet because I wanted a good closeup of the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and that's why I know that it would be right at 15 feet, because I had prefocused in that area, and I had my camera almost to my eye when it happened and that's as far as I got with my camera. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z341.jpg ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mr. ALTGENS: He seemed as if at the time----well, he was in a position-- sort of immobile. He wasn't upright He was at an angle but when it hit him, it seemed to have just lodged--it seemed as if he were hung up on a seat button or something like that. It knocked him just enough forward that he came right on down. There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing, so much so that it indicated to me that the shot came out of the left side of his head. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For those unaware of "history", the frame of the Z-film which showed Mr. Altgens standing with the camera to his eye and about to take the photo, appeared in various newspapers throughout the country on either 11/23/63 or 11/24/63. (can not recall which date that it appeared in the Mobile, AL "Register". This is of course why the WC made an attemp to NOT call Mr. Altgens to testify, as well as NOT publish any copies of the Z-film past the Z334 mark, prior to Mr. Altgens becoming visible in the film, as well as NOT show Mr. Altgens frames of the film which clearly demonstrated his location on Elm St. in exact relationship to the yellow mark on the street curb. This is also the reasoning as to why the WC made their completely phony "AP" photographer re-enactment photo in which they moved the position of the re-enactment camera farther up Elm St. in order to make it appear that Mr. Altgens was in fact standing close to the impact point of the Z313/second shot impact to the head of JFK. http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol18_0054a.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This thing truly is not that difficult to understand. and thanks to you, Tom! For presenting over the years, a clearER *picture* regarding the dimensions of Elm Street and DP in general... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Forman Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 uh-uh-UH..... is that part of your, "There can be no doubt IMO"? You can prove the 3.6/18ths from the headshot, eh? If so, that IS new, you're now the only person in the world that claims the exact timing of the Moorman 5. Yes, David ... it can be mathematically proven. You would know this if you'd spend more time actually doing research instead of trolling the forums. Anthony Marsh did this study many years ago and for a brief moment I had thought he was in error, but it was I who was wrong. How did Marsh conclude the exact timing of the Moorman photo in relation to Zapruder's film, well let me make it as simple as I can ... Not only is the position of Jackie in relation to JFK important, but Marsh recognized the importance of the cycles that both Martin and Hargis were riding. You see, between Zapruder frames - those cycles are varying in the distance of their advancement to one another. In Z313 and Z314 - Martin hasn't advanced to the point of passing Moorman's location so to duplicate Mary's photo. The same can be said about Z315 and by Z316 the cycles have advanced in relation to one another too far for by then JFK would be seen through Hargis's windshield. So what Marsh did was to break up their advancement between frames into increments. (I'd have to go check, but I believe he did .10 increments) By doing so he could see that mathematically Z315.6 was when the cycles were best aligned to match that of Moorman's Polaroid. But let's not forget that the alleged 'other film' witnesses are talking about a 2 - 4 second limo stop at the moment of the head shot. 2 seconds equals 36 Zapruder frames and Marsh clearly is working within two Zapruder frames and anything beyond that isn't even worthy of discussion because of the alignment of Martin and Hargis's cycles shields to JFK. So once again I say that the Moorman photo proves beyond a doubt that any 'other film' showing JFK's limo stopped for several seconds is nothing more than a reenactment film that someone has mistaken for the real Zapruder film and /or some of them, if not all, are lying about witnessing such a film. Bill Miller regarding the limo, I've heard of a] slowdown-only, 2] less than one second stop, 3] 2 second stop -- never heard the 4 second time before. Of course all this is meaningless if what we see in Moorman 5 was around the the 2nd shot, the final head shot taking place around Z-355-60. What supports that contention is the SS/FBI reenactment, DP surveyor data .... Lying about seeing another film? Why? The point and rational of that? Its possible existence doesn't help the Z-film alteration crowd, and its definately a pain in the ass for the LNutter's... It's alleged existence advances the case not one inch.... the final head shot taking place around Z-355-60. What supports that contention is the SS/FBI reenactment, DP surveyor data .... The remaining questions being: http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z341.jpg 1. When is Z341 NOT Z341? 2. If a man falls down in the forest and there is no one there to see it, did he still fall????? What about if he "jumps" up in the air while in the forest????? How about if he "jumps" up in the air while on Elm St.???????????? 3. And lastly, exactly how fast was Clint Hill, how fast did he have to run, and how many times did he "jump"? Mr. ALTGENS: I was prepared to make a picture at the very instant the President was shot. I had refocused to 15 feet because I wanted a good closeup of the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and that's why I know that it would be right at 15 feet, because I had prefocused in that area, and I had my camera almost to my eye when it happened and that's as far as I got with my camera. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z341.jpg ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mr. ALTGENS: He seemed as if at the time----well, he was in a position-- sort of immobile. He wasn't upright He was at an angle but when it hit him, it seemed to have just lodged--it seemed as if he were hung up on a seat button or something like that. It knocked him just enough forward that he came right on down. There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing, so much so that it indicated to me that the shot came out of the left side of his head. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For those unaware of "history", the frame of the Z-film which showed Mr. Altgens standing with the camera to his eye and about to take the photo, appeared in various newspapers throughout the country on either 11/23/63 or 11/24/63. (can not recall which date that it appeared in the Mobile, AL "Register". This is of course why the WC made an attemp to NOT call Mr. Altgens to testify, as well as NOT publish any copies of the Z-film past the Z334 mark, prior to Mr. Altgens becoming visible in the film, as well as NOT show Mr. Altgens frames of the film which clearly demonstrated his location on Elm St. in exact relationship to the yellow mark on the street curb. This is also the reasoning as to why the WC made their completely phony "AP" photographer re-enactment photo in which they moved the position of the re-enactment camera farther up Elm St. in order to make it appear that Mr. Altgens was in fact standing close to the impact point of the Z313/second shot impact to the head of JFK. http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol18_0054a.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This thing truly is not that difficult to understand. Hi Tom. This one? Released along with 2 other frames - sourced from the Wichita Beacon [don't ask]. The date is 11/29. The text - 'Film Strip Photos Show Assassination" - has it that they were released by Life on 11/29 with specific terms. The article goes on to indicate that it is unclear as to whether these were the movies taken by Abraham Zapruder. - lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 uh-uh-UH..... is that part of your, "There can be no doubt IMO"? You can prove the 3.6/18ths from the headshot, eh? If so, that IS new, you're now the only person in the world that claims the exact timing of the Moorman 5. Yes, David ... it can be mathematically proven. You would know this if you'd spend more time actually doing research instead of trolling the forums. Anthony Marsh did this study many years ago and for a brief moment I had thought he was in error, but it was I who was wrong. How did Marsh conclude the exact timing of the Moorman photo in relation to Zapruder's film, well let me make it as simple as I can ... Not only is the position of Jackie in relation to JFK important, but Marsh recognized the importance of the cycles that both Martin and Hargis were riding. You see, between Zapruder frames - those cycles are varying in the distance of their advancement to one another. In Z313 and Z314 - Martin hasn't advanced to the point of passing Moorman's location so to duplicate Mary's photo. The same can be said about Z315 and by Z316 the cycles have advanced in relation to one another too far for by then JFK would be seen through Hargis's windshield. So what Marsh did was to break up their advancement between frames into increments. (I'd have to go check, but I believe he did .10 increments) By doing so he could see that mathematically Z315.6 was when the cycles were best aligned to match that of Moorman's Polaroid. But let's not forget that the alleged 'other film' witnesses are talking about a 2 - 4 second limo stop at the moment of the head shot. 2 seconds equals 36 Zapruder frames and Marsh clearly is working within two Zapruder frames and anything beyond that isn't even worthy of discussion because of the alignment of Martin and Hargis's cycles shields to JFK. So once again I say that the Moorman photo proves beyond a doubt that any 'other film' showing JFK's limo stopped for several seconds is nothing more than a reenactment film that someone has mistaken for the real Zapruder film and /or some of them, if not all, are lying about witnessing such a film. Bill Miller regarding the limo, I've heard of a] slowdown-only, 2] less than one second stop, 3] 2 second stop -- never heard the 4 second time before. Of course all this is meaningless if what we see in Moorman 5 was around the the 2nd shot, the final head shot taking place around Z-355-60. What supports that contention is the SS/FBI reenactment, DP surveyor data .... Lying about seeing another film? Why? The point and rational of that? Its possible existence doesn't help the Z-film alteration crowd, and its definately a pain in the ass for the LNutter's... It's alleged existence advances the case not one inch.... the final head shot taking place around Z-355-60. What supports that contention is the SS/FBI reenactment, DP surveyor data .... The remaining questions being: http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z341.jpg 1. When is Z341 NOT Z341? 2. If a man falls down in the forest and there is no one there to see it, did he still fall????? What about if he "jumps" up in the air while in the forest????? How about if he "jumps" up in the air while on Elm St.???????????? 3. And lastly, exactly how fast was Clint Hill, how fast did he have to run, and how many times did he "jump"? Mr. ALTGENS: I was prepared to make a picture at the very instant the President was shot. I had refocused to 15 feet because I wanted a good closeup of the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and that's why I know that it would be right at 15 feet, because I had prefocused in that area, and I had my camera almost to my eye when it happened and that's as far as I got with my camera. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z341.jpg ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mr. ALTGENS: He seemed as if at the time----well, he was in a position-- sort of immobile. He wasn't upright He was at an angle but when it hit him, it seemed to have just lodged--it seemed as if he were hung up on a seat button or something like that. It knocked him just enough forward that he came right on down. There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing, so much so that it indicated to me that the shot came out of the left side of his head. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For those unaware of "history", the frame of the Z-film which showed Mr. Altgens standing with the camera to his eye and about to take the photo, appeared in various newspapers throughout the country on either 11/23/63 or 11/24/63. (can not recall which date that it appeared in the Mobile, AL "Register". This is of course why the WC made an attemp to NOT call Mr. Altgens to testify, as well as NOT publish any copies of the Z-film past the Z334 mark, prior to Mr. Altgens becoming visible in the film, as well as NOT show Mr. Altgens frames of the film which clearly demonstrated his location on Elm St. in exact relationship to the yellow mark on the street curb. This is also the reasoning as to why the WC made their completely phony "AP" photographer re-enactment photo in which they moved the position of the re-enactment camera farther up Elm St. in order to make it appear that Mr. Altgens was in fact standing close to the impact point of the Z313/second shot impact to the head of JFK. http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol18_0054a.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This thing truly is not that difficult to understand. Hi Tom. This one? Released along with 2 other frames - sourced from the Wichita Beacon [don't ask]. The date is 11/29. The text - 'Film Strip Photos Show Assassination" - has it that they were released by Life on 11/29 with specific terms. The article goes on to indicate that it is unclear as to whether these were the movies taken by Abraham Zapruder. - lee Yep! That's it. I know that it was also published in the Mobile, AL "Register" in late November 1963. I knew that it was within a few days after the assassination, and since I never kept a copy of the paper I could recall only that it was in November. That is of course Mr. Altgens, as seen in the Z-film, and of which we did not see again until many, many years after the assassination. Of course, the WC decided for us that there was nothing of interest past Z334, and therefore we did not need to look down past that point. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z312.jpg http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z334.jpg http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z343.jpg ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just in event that I were not engaged in "ducking", then most probably I would also be "crying out" as well as recognizing that it was time to "un-ass" the vehicle as well. But since much of my luck runs along the lines of JBC, I would have probably "ducked" right into the path of the third/last/final shot. Just as he did! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes; and it seemed to me there was--he made no utterance, no cry. I saw no blood, no anything. It was just sort of nothing, the expression on his face, and he just sort of slumped down. Then very soon there was the second shot that hit John. As the first shot was hit, and I turned to look at the same time, I recall John saying, "Oh, no, no, no." Then there was a second shot, and it hit John, and as he recoiled to the right, just crumpled like a wounded animal to the right, he said, "My God, they are going to kill us all." and I remember that he turned to the right and then just slumped down into the seat, so that I reached over to pull him toward me. X was trying to get him down and me down. The jump seats were not very roomy, so that there were reports that he slid into the seat of the car, which he did not; that he fell over into my lap, which he did not. I just pulled him over into my arms because it would have been impossible to get us really both down with me sitting and me holding him. So that I looked out, I mean as he was in my arms, I put my head down over his head so that his head and my head were right together, and all I could see, too, were the people flashing by. I didn't look back any more. The third shot that I heard I felt, it felt like spent buckshot falling all over us, and then, of course, I too could see that it was the matter, brain tissue, or whatever, just human matter, all over the car and both of us. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From the handwritten notes of Nellie Connally, written 10 days after the assassination. "My God, they are going to kill us all," wheeled back to the right, crumpling his shoulders to his knees in the most helpless and pitiful position a tall man could be in. I reached over and pulled him to me and tried to get us both down in the car. Then came the third shot. I did not see the third shot hit, but I felt something falling all over me. My sensation was of spent buckshot...my eyes saw bloody matter in tiny bits all over the car. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mr. ALTGENS : There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing, so much so that it indicated to me that the shot came out of the left side of his head. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Nellie Connally is not, and has never been confused. The confusion lies in those persons who have not taken the time to evaluate ALL of the evidence. Tom P.S. It was Nellie Connally who had JBC's coat dry cleaned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 regarding the limo, I've heard of a] slowdown-only, 2] less than one second stop, 3] 2 second stop -- never heard the 4 second time before. Of course all this is meaningless if what we see in Moorman 5 was around the the 2nd shot, the final head shot taking place around Z-355-60. What supports that contention is the SS/FBI reenactment, DP surveyor data .... Well, David ... you were a member of the looney forum when all that discussion was going on and I brought up to Burnham that his time allotment for the limo stop was several seconds diferent than othes who were at that time claiming to have seen the so-called other film. Why, if you were reading the forum at that time, that you would not have heard about the limo stop lasting 3- 4 seconds is something that I cannot explain other than you were not paying enough attention or have merely forgotten it. It was those variances in these other film claims that caused me to question that so many individuals had seen the same 'other film'. Lying about seeing another film? Why? The point and rational of that? Its possible existence doesn't help the Z-film alteration crowd, and its definately a pain in the ass for the LNutter's... It's alleged existence advances the case not one inch.... Why would some rabid alterationist make a false claim in support of their beliefs ... you are kidding me - right! Who might be dishonest enough to make such a claim ... maybe the same people who were being given all these different versions of another film and then claiming that they alll belonged to a list of people who say saw the same 'other film'. Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 uh-uh-UH..... is that part of your, "There can be no doubt IMO"? You can prove the 3.6/18ths from the headshot, eh? If so, that IS new, you're now the only person in the world that claims the exact timing of the Moorman 5. Yes, David ... it can be mathematically proven. You would know this if you'd spend more time actually doing research instead of trolling the forums. Anthony Marsh did this study many years ago and for a brief moment I had thought he was in error, but it was I who was wrong. How did Marsh conclude the exact timing of the Moorman photo in relation to Zapruder's film, well let me make it as simple as I can ... Not only is the position of Jackie in relation to JFK important, but Marsh recognized the importance of the cycles that both Martin and Hargis were riding. You see, between Zapruder frames - those cycles are varying in the distance of their advancement to one another. In Z313 and Z314 - Martin hasn't advanced to the point of passing Moorman's location so to duplicate Mary's photo. The same can be said about Z315 and by Z316 the cycles have advanced in relation to one another too far for by then JFK would be seen through Hargis's windshield. So what Marsh did was to break up their advancement between frames into increments. (I'd have to go check, but I believe he did .10 increments) By doing so he could see that mathematically Z315.6 was when the cycles were best aligned to match that of Moorman's Polaroid. But let's not forget that the alleged 'other film' witnesses are talking about a 2 - 4 second limo stop at the moment of the head shot. 2 seconds equals 36 Zapruder frames and Marsh clearly is working within two Zapruder frames and anything beyond that isn't even worthy of discussion because of the alignment of Martin and Hargis's cycles shields to JFK. So once again I say that the Moorman photo proves beyond a doubt that any 'other film' showing JFK's limo stopped for several seconds is nothing more than a reenactment film that someone has mistaken for the real Zapruder film and /or some of them, if not all, are lying about witnessing such a film. Bill Miller regarding the limo, I've heard of a] slowdown-only, 2] less than one second stop, 3] 2 second stop -- never heard the 4 second time before. Of course all this is meaningless if what we see in Moorman 5 was around the the 2nd shot, the final head shot taking place around Z-355-60. What supports that contention is the SS/FBI reenactment, DP surveyor data .... Lying about seeing another film? Why? The point and rational of that? Its possible existence doesn't help the Z-film alteration crowd, and its definately a pain in the ass for the LNutter's... It's alleged existence advances the case not one inch.... the final head shot taking place around Z-355-60. What supports that contention is the SS/FBI reenactment, DP surveyor data .... The remaining questions being: http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z341.jpg 1. When is Z341 NOT Z341? 2. If a man falls down in the forest and there is no one there to see it, did he still fall????? What about if he "jumps" up in the air while in the forest????? How about if he "jumps" up in the air while on Elm St.???????????? 3. And lastly, exactly how fast was Clint Hill, how fast did he have to run, and how many times did he "jump"? Mr. ALTGENS: I was prepared to make a picture at the very instant the President was shot. I had refocused to 15 feet because I wanted a good closeup of the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and that's why I know that it would be right at 15 feet, because I had prefocused in that area, and I had my camera almost to my eye when it happened and that's as far as I got with my camera. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z341.jpg ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mr. ALTGENS: He seemed as if at the time----well, he was in a position-- sort of immobile. He wasn't upright He was at an angle but when it hit him, it seemed to have just lodged--it seemed as if he were hung up on a seat button or something like that. It knocked him just enough forward that he came right on down. There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing, so much so that it indicated to me that the shot came out of the left side of his head. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For those unaware of "history", the frame of the Z-film which showed Mr. Altgens standing with the camera to his eye and about to take the photo, appeared in various newspapers throughout the country on either 11/23/63 or 11/24/63. (can not recall which date that it appeared in the Mobile, AL "Register". This is of course why the WC made an attemp to NOT call Mr. Altgens to testify, as well as NOT publish any copies of the Z-film past the Z334 mark, prior to Mr. Altgens becoming visible in the film, as well as NOT show Mr. Altgens frames of the film which clearly demonstrated his location on Elm St. in exact relationship to the yellow mark on the street curb. This is also the reasoning as to why the WC made their completely phony "AP" photographer re-enactment photo in which they moved the position of the re-enactment camera farther up Elm St. in order to make it appear that Mr. Altgens was in fact standing close to the impact point of the Z313/second shot impact to the head of JFK. http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol18_0054a.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This thing truly is not that difficult to understand. Hi Tom. This one? Released along with 2 other frames - sourced from the Wichita Beacon [don't ask]. The date is 11/29. The text - 'Film Strip Photos Show Assassination" - has it that they were released by Life on 11/29 with specific terms. The article goes on to indicate that it is unclear as to whether these were the movies taken by Abraham Zapruder. - lee Yep! That's it. I know that it was also published in the Mobile, AL "Register" in late November 1963. I knew that it was within a few days after the assassination, and since I never kept a copy of the paper I could recall only that it was in November. That is of course Mr. Altgens, as seen in the Z-film, and of which we did not see again until many, many years after the assassination. Of course, the WC decided for us that there was nothing of interest past Z334, and therefore we did not need to look down past that point. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z312.jpg http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z334.jpg http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z343.jpg ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just in event that I were not engaged in "ducking", then most probably I would also be "crying out" as well as recognizing that it was time to "un-ass" the vehicle as well. But since much of my luck runs along the lines of JBC, I would have probably "ducked" right into the path of the third/last/final shot. Just as he did! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes; and it seemed to me there was--he made no utterance, no cry. I saw no blood, no anything. It was just sort of nothing, the expression on his face, and he just sort of slumped down. Then very soon there was the second shot that hit John. As the first shot was hit, and I turned to look at the same time, I recall John saying, "Oh, no, no, no." Then there was a second shot, and it hit John, and as he recoiled to the right, just crumpled like a wounded animal to the right, he said, "My God, they are going to kill us all." and I remember that he turned to the right and then just slumped down into the seat, so that I reached over to pull him toward me. X was trying to get him down and me down. The jump seats were not very roomy, so that there were reports that he slid into the seat of the car, which he did not; that he fell over into my lap, which he did not. I just pulled him over into my arms because it would have been impossible to get us really both down with me sitting and me holding him. So that I looked out, I mean as he was in my arms, I put my head down over his head so that his head and my head were right together, and all I could see, too, were the people flashing by. I didn't look back any more. The third shot that I heard I felt, it felt like spent buckshot falling all over us, and then, of course, I too could see that it was the matter, brain tissue, or whatever, just human matter, all over the car and both of us. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From the handwritten notes of Nellie Connally, written 10 days after the assassination. "My God, they are going to kill us all," wheeled back to the right, crumpling his shoulders to his knees in the most helpless and pitiful position a tall man could be in. I reached over and pulled him to me and tried to get us both down in the car. Then came the third shot. I did not see the third shot hit, but I felt something falling all over me. My sensation was of spent buckshot...my eyes saw bloody matter in tiny bits all over the car. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mr. ALTGENS : There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing, so much so that it indicated to me that the shot came out of the left side of his head. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Nellie Connally is not, and has never been confused. The confusion lies in those persons who have not taken the time to evaluate ALL of the evidence. Tom P.S. It was Nellie Connally who had JBC's coat dry cleaned. Mr. ALTGENS : I wasn't keeping track of the number of pops that took place, but I could vouch for No. 1, and I can vouch for the last shot, but I cannot tell you how many shots were in between. There was not another shot fired after the President was struck in the head. That was the last shot--that much I will say with a great degree of certainty. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mr. HUDSON - I was trying to get a good look at President Kennedy. I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet hit him - the second shot. Mr. LIEBELER - That was when the bullet hit him in the head; is that correct? Mr. HUDSON - Yes; it looked like it ht him somewhere along about a little bit behind the ear and a little bit above the ear. Mr. LIEBELER - On the right-hand side or the left-hand side? Mr. HUDSON - Right hand. Mr. HUDSON - Right along there is about where President Kennedy's car was when he was hit - at the time I was looking right at him when the shot struck him, when the bullet struck him. Mr. LIEBELER - How many shots did you here altogether? Mr. HUDSON - Three. Mr. LIEBELER - Three shots? Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir. Mr. LIEBELER - Are you sure about that? Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir. Mr. LIEBELER - You say that it was the second shot that hit him in the head; is that right? Mr. HUDSON - Yes; I do believe that - I know it was. Mr. LIEBELER - You saw him hit in the head, there wasn't any question in your mind about that, was there? Mr. HUDSON - No, sir. Mr. LIEBELER - And after you saw him hit in the head, did you here another shot? Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir. Mr. LIEBELER - Did you see that shot hit anything - the third shot? Mr. HUDSON - No, sir. I'll tell you - this young fellow that was sitting there with me - standing there with me at the present time, he says, "lay down, Mister, somebody is shooting the President." He says, "Lay down, lay down." and he kept repeating, "Lay down." so he was already laying down one way on the sidewalk, so I just laid down over on the ground and resting my arm on the ground and when that third shot rung out and when I was close to the ground - you could tell the shot was coming from above and kind of behind. Mr. LIEBELER - You say it was the second shot that hit him in the head? Mr. HUDSON - Yes. Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir; I just saw him hit once. Mr. LIEBELER - That was in the head? Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir. Mr. LIEBELER - And you saw the President get hit by what you heard as the second shot? Mr. HUDSON - Yes. Mr. LIEBELER - But you are quite sure in your own mind that the shots came from the rear of the President's car and above it; is that correct? Mr. HUDSON - Yes ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BREHM said when the President was hit by the second shot, he could notice the President's hair fly up, and then roll over to his side, as Mrs. KENNEDY was apparently pulling him in that direction. BREHM said that a third shot followed and that all three shots were relatively close together ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mr. HOLLAND - Well, it was pretty loud, and naturally, underneath this underpass here it would be a little louder, the concussion from underneath it, it was a pretty loud report, and the car traveled a few yards, and Governor Connally turned in this fashion, like that [indicating] with his hand out, and another report. Mr. STERN - With his right hand out? Mr. HOLLAND - Turning to his right. Mr. STERN - To his right? http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z312.jpg Mr. HOLLAND - And another report rang out and he slumped down in his seat, and about that time Mrs. Kennedy was looking at these girls over here [indicating]. The girls standing---now one of them was taking a picture, and the other one was just standing there, and she turned around facing the President and Governor Connally. In other words, she realized what was happening, I guess. Now, I mean, that was apparently that---she turned back around, and by the time she could get turned around he was hit again along in---I'd say along in here [indicating]. Mr. STERN - How do you know that? Did you observe that? Mr. HOLLAND - I observed it. It knocked him completely down on the floor. Over, just slumped completely over. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MARY ANN MOORMAN She took a second photograph of the President as his automobile passed her, and just as she snapped the the picture, she heard what she at first thought was a firecracker and very shortly thereafter heard another similar sound which she later determined to have been gunfire. She knows that she heard two shots and possibly a third shot ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David G. Healy Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 regarding the limo, I've heard of a] slowdown-only, 2] less than one second stop, 3] 2 second stop -- never heard the 4 second time before. Of course all this is meaningless if what we see in Moorman 5 was around the the 2nd shot, the final head shot taking place around Z-355-60. What supports that contention is the SS/FBI reenactment, DP surveyor data .... Well, David ... you were a member of the looney forum when all that discussion was going on and I brought up to Burnham that his time allotment for the limo stop was several seconds diferent than othes who were at that time claiming to have seen the so-called other film. Why, if you were reading the forum at that time, that you would not have heard about the limo stop lasting 3- 4 seconds is something that I cannot explain other than you were not paying enough attention or have merely forgotten it. It was those variances in these other film claims that caused me to question that so many individuals had seen the same 'other film'. Lying about seeing another film? Why? The point and rational of that? Its possible existence doesn't help the Z-film alteration crowd, and its definately a pain in the ass for the LNutter's... It's alleged existence advances the case not one inch.... Why would some rabid alterationist make a false claim in support of their beliefs ... you are kidding me - right! Who might be dishonest enough to make such a claim ... maybe the same people who were being given all these different versions of another film and then claiming that they alll belonged to a list of people who say saw the same 'other film'. Bill Miller C'mon now Bill, every forum you join, disagreeing with your position, is a *looney* forum. What the hell is new about that? You know damn right and well if the film alterationists folded up the tent, you'd have to drift back to obscurity, inflated egos being what they are, I doubt you'd stand for that, yes? -- I think your shucking and jiving AGAIN when it comes to alleged 3-4 second limo stop. If there's another film, there's another film, what makes you so nervous about it's possible existence? So, I wouldn't let *not* seeing the other film get you down, I haven't seen it either. Haven't spent much bandwidth dealing with it either. Rabid Lone Neuter's and WC supporters NEED the CTer's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 C'mon now Bill, every forum you join, disagreeing with your position, is a *looney* forum. What the hell is new about that? You know damn right and well if the film alterationists folded up the tent, you'd have to drift back to obscurity, inflated egos being what they are, I doubt you'd stand for that, yes? -- I think your shucking and jiving AGAIN when it comes to alleged 3-4 second limo stop. If there's another film, there's another film, what makes you so nervous about it's possible existence? So, I wouldn't let *not* seeing the other film get you down, I haven't seen it either. Haven't spent much bandwidth dealing with it either. Rabid Lone Neuter's and WC supporters NEED the CTer's. Personally, David ... I think you use these forums like Pee-Wee Herman uses Adult stores. Let's address your most recent misrepresentation of the facts - shall we ... I have only ever joined three forums in my life - JFK Research - Lancer - the Education Forum. Only one of those three forums do I refer to as the looney forum. So your remark about "every forum" I join that disagrees with my position is just more 'Baghdad Bob Healy' talk. As far as the alterationist and their tent goes ... they might as well fold it up because even a most devoted paranoid CTs such as yourself has seen their evidence and has stated that he has not witnessed any evidence of alteration. So it seems that the alterationist tent is too full of holes to be of any value to even yourself. I will add that your ignorance alone is proof of the problem that alterationist have in selling their faulty claims. You constantly divide people who disagree with you into camps of LNrs and CTs when in reality it is also CT's who are finding these alteration claims to be little more than poorly researched assertions being made by a very small number of individuals. In your last response alone you openly admit that you haven't spent much time dealing with the 'other film' story, but the difference between you and I is that I did spend considerable time dealing/evaluating all the information that had been presented concerning this alleged 'other film' and that is why I remember the little things so well that told me these people had not all seen the same film, but various films depicting the assassination which they may have only thought at the time was the real Zapruder film. The others are just lying IMO. Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 regarding the limo, I've heard of a] slowdown-only, 2] less than one second stop, 3] 2 second stop -- never heard the 4 second time before. Of course all this is meaningless if what we see in Moorman 5 was around the the 2nd shot, the final head shot taking place around Z-355-60. What supports that contention is the SS/FBI reenactment, DP surveyor data .... Well, David ... you were a member of the looney forum when all that discussion was going on and I brought up to Burnham that his time allotment for the limo stop was several seconds diferent than othes who were at that time claiming to have seen the so-called other film. Why, if you were reading the forum at that time, that you would not have heard about the limo stop lasting 3- 4 seconds is something that I cannot explain other than you were not paying enough attention or have merely forgotten it. It was those variances in these other film claims that caused me to question that so many individuals had seen the same 'other film'. Lying about seeing another film? Why? The point and rational of that? Its possible existence doesn't help the Z-film alteration crowd, and its definately a pain in the ass for the LNutter's... It's alleged existence advances the case not one inch.... Why would some rabid alterationist make a false claim in support of their beliefs ... you are kidding me - right! Who might be dishonest enough to make such a claim ... maybe the same people who were being given all these different versions of another film and then claiming that they alll belonged to a list of people who say saw the same 'other film'. Bill Miller C'mon now Bill, every forum you join, disagreeing with your position, is a *looney* forum. What the hell is new about that? You know damn right and well if the film alterationists folded up the tent, you'd have to drift back to obscurity, inflated egos being what they are, I doubt you'd stand for that, yes? -- I think your shucking and jiving AGAIN when it comes to alleged 3-4 second limo stop. If there's another film, there's another film, what makes you so nervous about it's possible existence? So, I wouldn't let *not* seeing the other film get you down, I haven't seen it either. Haven't spent much bandwidth dealing with it either. Rabid Lone Neuter's and WC supporters NEED the CTer's. Rabid Lone Neuter's and WC supporters NEED the CTer's. The issues of the assassination "NEED" neither the "Rabid Lone Neuter's", nor the often completely asinine theories of some of the "CTer's". Common sense dictates that there is something not quite right with the WC Investigation. Unfortunately, all are not born with, nor do they ever develop "common sense". Were it so, then it is most unlikely that such crocks of BS as Body Snatchers and wound alteration specialists would have ever gotten anything more than a good laugh. And, anyone with even a smidget of Common Sense would recognize that although there was most probably a "Lone Assassin", one can be assured that the actual event WAS NOT the end result of some "Lone Nut" who had nothing better to do on 11/22/63 than assassinate the President of the US. Likewise, the adamant stance of WC supporters that there is really nothing wrong with the manner in which the WC conducted their investigation, is for all practical purposes as asinine as is the body kidnapping of JFK scenario. Even with "damage control" work such as that of "CASE CLOSED" in which the mysterious "SHOT THAT MISSED" was moved to a point prior to Z204/206, even with absolutely no evidence to support such a claim, the WC lie continues to become muddled. The "LN" supporters can sit tight in their protected "mindset" and enjoy many laughs while various elements of the CT community continue to come up with and expouse repeated claims which are relatively easily disproven, and serve to only discredit the ENTIRE Conspiracy Minded investigators into the assassination. That neither the CT Community nor the LN Community have been able to piece the puzzle of the actual assassination into it's proper places IS NOT the fault of the puzzle. Especially when it was the full intent of the "Puzzle Maker" to create this masterpiece of deception. Therefore, to "make up" their own visualization as to what the puzzle, when completed, actually looks like, while ignoring all of the factual evidence which demonstrates that this IS NOT what the puzzle actually looks like, is of course HUMAN, and the perceptions on which we base much of our lives. For over 40 years, the "LN Society" has had to support the SBT theory, as not unlike everyone else, they have completely failed to evaluate the factual evidence of the assassination and accepted the 10 pages of circular reasoning of the WC in regards to "THE SHOT THAT MISSED", and acceptance that the Z313 headshot was the last shot fired in the assassination shot sequence. Likewise, the "CT Society" has continued to foster complete dis-belief in the SBT theory, claim that the shots could have not been fired in the time span indicated, and not unlike the "LN Society", never bother to even verify if the Z313 headshot was in fact the last shot fired in the shooting sequence. So, as we all know, there is "Dumb & Dumber"! And, one must question exactly which is which! Those of the "CT" persuasion who at least recognize that the WC is/was an intentional misrepresentation of the facts (aka lie), yet accept that the Z313 headshot was the last shot as told to us by the WC, or those of the "LN" persuasion who merely accept the WC version of "THE SHOT THAT MISSED", and continue on in their ignorant bliss. Those of the "CT" persuasion who continue to perpetuate that the shots could not have been fired due to "Time Constrants", when in fact they have not even bothered to resolve that there was approximately 5.9 seconds from the first shot fired to the impact of the second shot/aka Z313, and that the third/last/final shot was not fired until some 30+ feet farther down the road from impact of the Z313/second shot. Or, those of the "LN" persuasion who do not have enough common sense to recognize that the third/last/final shot had to strike something/somewhere, and there has always been more than adequate evidence to indicate the position of the Presidential Limo at the time of this shot, as well as the witness testimony as regards the impact to the head of JFK as caused by this SHOT THAT DID NOT MISS! Exactly what kind of idiot thinks that the shooter could hit JFK at minimum, two out of three shots, yet could not even hit the entire Presidential Limousine and/or any of it's occupants with a third shot???? Rest assured that Gerald Ford; Arlen Specter; JBC; LBJ; and a host of others have gotten some good laughs at the full expense of much of the CT community, and are also most probably guilty of further feeding the flames in order that the CT could continue to "chase smoke". Hell! Even I get a good laugh now and then at exactly what the human species can be lead to believe. There was a "LONE ASSASSIN"! The WC is/was an intentional misrepresentation of the facts of the actual assassination! And, irrelevant of Mr. Simkin's and others "political agenda" against the bad ole US Government/CIA/FBI/ONI/OSS/George Bush/etc. The WC lie is far more closely related to "Texas Politics" than to any of the above. When "one" assures that the votes of numerous deceased persons are moved to a location where a mysterious fire can consume them and thereafter completely avoid any "recount", they are due a "big favor" in return. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) BRUCE MORTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's a grab-bag of tapes, 426 hours of conversations from January to June, 1972. John Connally, talking to Richard Nixon about John Kennedy's assassination. JOHN CONNALLY: I knew he was dead and I became unconscious. I was lying down in Nellie's lap, like this. And she had her head on top of me. And I had my eyes open. And I heard that bullet hit his head. And immediately, there was brain matter. Hell, I know brain matter because it was all over the car. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WC Testimony Governor CONNALLY-I just sat there, and Mrs. Connally pulled me over to her lap. She was sitting, of course, on the jump seat, so I reclined with my head in her lap, conscious all the time, and with my eyes open; and then, of course, the third shot sounded, and I heard the shot very clearly. I heard it hit him. I heard the shot hit something, and I assumed again--it never entered my mind that it ever hit anybody but the President. I heard it hit. It was a very loud noise, just that audible, very clear. Immediately I could see on my clothes, my clothing, I could see on the interior of the car which, as I recall, was a pale blue, brain tissue, which I immediately recognized, and I recall very well, on my trousers there was one chunk of brain tissue as big as almost my thumb, thumbnail Governor CONNALLY. Mrs. Connally. When she pulled me over into her lap, she could tell I was still breathing and moving, and she said, "Don't worry, Be quiet. You are going to be all right." She Just kept telling me I was going to be all right. Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Kennedy state anything at that time? Governor CONNALLY. Yes; I have to--I would say it was after the third shot when she said, "They have killed my husband." Mr. SPECTER. Did she say anything more? Governor CONNALLY. Yes; she said, I heard her say one time, "I have got his brains in my hand." Governor CONNALLY-------Obviously, it couldn't have been the third, because when the third shot was fired I was in a reclining position, and heard it, saw it and the effects of it, rather--I didn't see it, I saw the effects of it--so it obviously could not have been the third, and couldn't have been the first, in my judgment. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z343.jpg "Mrs. Kennedy cries out in anguish" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WC Version: Governor CONNALLY--so I reclined with my head in her lap, conscious all the time, and with my eyes open; and then, of course, the third shot sounded After the third shot, and I heard Roy Kellerman tell the driver, "Bill, get out of line." And then I saw him move, and I assumed he was moving a button or something on the panel of the automobile, and he said, "Get us to a hospital quick." I assumed he was saying this to the patrolman, the motorcycle police who were leading us. At about that time, we began to pull out of the cavalcade, out of the line, and I lost consciousness and didn't regain consciousness until we got to the hospital. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Videotape Version: JOHN CONNALLY: I knew he was dead and I became unconscious ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nellie Connally's book: "After the first shot, Jackie was aware that her husband was wounded and in trouble. After the second---the one that mangled my John---she was already moving to help him. After the third, her husband's head had been shattered. Bits of flesh and blood and brain flew everywhere--what felt to me like buckshot and had stung me like hot hail as I bent over John." "No, no, no! he cried out. Then---a second shot. My husband spun in his seat. He had been hit in the back by the second bullet. "My God," he blurted, "they are going to kill us all!"---then crumpled forward. * *Note: Ever try blurting and/or yelling "My God, they are going to kill us all" with 5 inches of the right fifth rib blown into the right lung? All I thought was, What can I do to help John? I pulled him into my lap. I didn't want him hurt any more. A third shot rang out. I felt something falling all over us. I looked up. Tiny bits of bloody matter covered my suit, the car, everything. From the backseat, I heard Jackie's frantic voice. "They've killed my husband! I have his brains in my hand" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mr. HILL. At the time of the shooting, when I got into the rear of the car, she said, "My God, they have shot his head off." Between there and the hospital she just said, "Jack, Jack, what have they done to you," and sobbed. Mr. HILL. This is the first sound that I heard; yes, sir. I jumped from the car, realizing that something was wrong, ran to the Presidential limousine. Just about as I reached it, there was another sound, which was different than the first sound. I think I described it in my statement as though someone was shooting a revolver into a hard object--it seemed to have some type of an echo. I put my right foot, I believe it was, on the left rear step of the automobile, and I had a hold of the handgrip with my hand, when the car lurched forward. I lost my footing and I had to run about three or four more steps before I could get back up in the car.Between the time I originally grabbed the handhold and until I was up on the car, Mrs. Kennedy--the second noise that I heard had removed a portion of the President's head, and he had slumped noticeably to his left. Mrs. Kennedy had jumped up from the seat and was, it appeared to me, reaching for something coming off the right rear bumper of the car, Mr. SPECTER. When, in relationship to the second shot, did the car accelerate that is, the President's car? Mr. HILL. Almost simultaneously Mr. SPECTER. How many shots have you described that you heard? Mr. HILL. Two. Mr. SPECTER. Did you hear any more than two shots? Mr. HILL. No, sir Mr. SPECTER. When, in relationship to the second shot, did Mrs. Kennedy move out of the rear seat? Mr. HILL. Just after it. Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, did you observe as to Governor Connally's condition on arrival at Parkland? Mr. HILL. He was conscious. There was a large amount of blood in the lower abdominal area. He was helped from the automobile to the stretcher, and I do not recall him saying anything, but I know that he was conscious. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mr. SPECTER. Now, how many shots, or how many noises have you just described that you heard? Mr. GREER. I know there was three that I heard--three. But I cannot remember any more than probably three. I know there was three anyway that I heard Mr. GREER. I knew that after I heard the second one, that is when I looked over my shoulder, and I was conscious that there was something wrong, because that is when I saw Governor Connally. And when I turned around again, to the best of my recollection there was another one, right immediately after. Mr. SPECTER. You testified that at the second noise you glanced over your shoulder. Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. Mr. SPECTER. Which shoulder did you glance over? Mr. GREER. Right shoulder Mr. SPECTER. And describe or indicate how far you turned your head to the right at that time? Mr. GREER. Just so that my eyes over, caught the Governor, I could see, I couldn't see the President. I just could see the Governor. I made a quick glance and back again. Mr. SPECTER. Exactly where was Governor Connally when you first caught him out of the corner of your eye? Mr. GREER. He was--he seemed to be falling a little bit toward Mrs. Connally, to the left. He started to go over a little bit to the left. Mr. SPECTER. And how far did you catch his movement during the time you were able to observe him? Mr. GREER. Just a second. He probably hadn't gotten his shoulder, he hadn't fell down or anything. He probably was in a position such as I am now. Mr. SPECTER. Did he fall to the rear or to the side or how? Mr. GREER. In my opinion, he fell toward Mrs. Connally which would be to his left or to his side. Mr. SPECTER. Did he fall then on his left shoulder and arm or in some other way? Mr. GREER. He appeared to me to be falling on his left shoulder when I glanced. He had only started to move that way whenever he--when I saw him. Mr. SPECTER. Did you step on the accelerator before, simultaneously or after Mr. Kellerman instructed you to accelerate? Mr. GREER. It was about simultaneously. Mr. SPECTER. So that it was your reaction to accelerate prior to the time-- Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. Mr. SPECTER. You had gotten that instruction? Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; it was my reaction that caused me to accelerate. Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect whether you accelerated before or at the same time or after the third shot? Mr. GREER. I couldn't really say. Just as soon as I turned my head back from the second shot, right away I accelerated right then. It was a matter of my reflexes to the accelerator. Mr. SPECTER. Was it at about that time that you heard the third shot? Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; just as soon as I turned my head. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mr. KELLERMAN. Correct; yes, sir. Governor Connally by that time is lying flat backwards into her lap-- Mrs. Connally--and she was lying flat over him. Mr. SPECTER. Who was lying flat over him? Mr. KELLERMAN. Mrs. Connally was lying flat over the Governor Mr. SPECTER. Now, in your prior testimony you described a flurry of shells into the car. How many shots did you hear after the first noise which you described as sounding like a firecracker? Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, these shells came in all together. Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to say how many you heard? Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to say two, and it was like a double bang--bang, bang. Mr. SPECTER. You mean now two shots in addition to the first noise? Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; yes, sir; at least. Mr. KELLERMAN. Our car accelerated immediately on the time-at the time--this flurry of shots came into it. Mr. SPECTER. Would you say the acceleration-- Mr. KELLERMAN. Between the second and third shot. Senator COOPER. When you were speaking of a flurry of shots, was there a longer interval between the first shot and the second shot as compared to the interval between the second shot and the third shot? Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. Mr. KELLERMAN. Fine. As we arrived at the hospital I immediately got out of the car. Our followup car is in back of us, as you will recall. I yelled to the agents, "Get in"--"Go get us two stretchers on wheels." In the meantime in a matter of seconds--I don't know how they got out so fast--I turned right around to the back door and opened it. By this time Mrs. Connally had raised up, and the Governor is lying in her lap, face up. His eyes are open and he is looking at me, and I am fairly sure he is alive. By this time I noticed the two stretchers coming out of the emergency room, and I said to the Governor, I said, "Governor, don't worry; everything is going to be all right." And he nodded his head, which I was fairly convinced that that man was alive. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Mr. HILL. I heard Special Agent Kellerman say on the radio, "To the nearest hospital, quick." Mr. SPECTER. Any other comment? Mr. HILL. He said, "We have been hit." Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. Good. There was enough for me to verify that the man was hit. So, in the same motion I come right back and grabbed the speaker and said to the driver, "Let's get out of here; we are hit," and grabbed the mike and I said, "Lawson, this is Kellerman,"--this is Lawson, who is in the front car. "We are hit; get us to the hospital immediately." Now, in the seconds that I talked just now, a flurry of shells come into the car. I then looked back and this time Mr. Hill, who was riding on the left front bumper of our followup car, was on the back trunk of that car; the President was sideways down into. the back seat. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mr. ALTGENS - This would put me at approximately this area here, which would be about 15 feet from me at the time he was shot in the head--about 15 feet from the car on the west side of the car--on the side that Mrs. Kennedy was riding in the car. Mr. ALTGENS - Yes. What made me almost certain that the shot came from behind was because at the time I was looking at the President, just as he was struck, it caused him to move a bit forward. He seemed as if at the time----well, he was in a position-- sort of immobile. He wasn't upright. He was at an angle but when it hit him, it seemed to have just lodged--it seemed as if he were hung up on a seat button or something like that. It knocked him just enough forward that he came right on down. There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing, so much so that it indicated to me that the shot came out of the left side of his head. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 regarding the limo, I've heard of a] slowdown-only, 2] less than one second stop, 3] 2 second stop -- never heard the 4 second time before. Of course all this is meaningless if what we see in Moorman 5 was around the the 2nd shot, the final head shot taking place around Z-355-60. What supports that contention is the SS/FBI reenactment, DP surveyor data .... Well, David ... you were a member of the looney forum when all that discussion was going on and I brought up to Burnham that his time allotment for the limo stop was several seconds diferent than othes who were at that time claiming to have seen the so-called other film. Why, if you were reading the forum at that time, that you would not have heard about the limo stop lasting 3- 4 seconds is something that I cannot explain other than you were not paying enough attention or have merely forgotten it. It was those variances in these other film claims that caused me to question that so many individuals had seen the same 'other film'. Lying about seeing another film? Why? The point and rational of that? Its possible existence doesn't help the Z-film alteration crowd, and its definately a pain in the ass for the LNutter's... It's alleged existence advances the case not one inch.... Why would some rabid alterationist make a false claim in support of their beliefs ... you are kidding me - right! Who might be dishonest enough to make such a claim ... maybe the same people who were being given all these different versions of another film and then claiming that they alll belonged to a list of people who say saw the same 'other film'. Bill Miller C'mon now Bill, every forum you join, disagreeing with your position, is a *looney* forum. What the hell is new about that? You know damn right and well if the film alterationists folded up the tent, you'd have to drift back to obscurity, inflated egos being what they are, I doubt you'd stand for that, yes? -- I think your shucking and jiving AGAIN when it comes to alleged 3-4 second limo stop. If there's another film, there's another film, what makes you so nervous about it's possible existence? So, I wouldn't let *not* seeing the other film get you down, I haven't seen it either. Haven't spent much bandwidth dealing with it either. Rabid Lone Neuter's and WC supporters NEED the CTer's. Rabid Lone Neuter's and WC supporters NEED the CTer's. The issues of the assassination "NEED" neither the "Rabid Lone Neuter's", nor the often completely asinine theories of some of the "CTer's". Common sense dictates that there is something not quite right with the WC Investigation. Unfortunately, all are not born with, nor do they ever develop "common sense". Were it so, then it is most unlikely that such crocks of BS as Body Snatchers and wound alteration specialists would have ever gotten anything more than a good laugh. And, anyone with even a smidget of Common Sense would recognize that although there was most probably a "Lone Assassin", one can be assured that the actual event WAS NOT the end result of some "Lone Nut" who had nothing better to do on 11/22/63 than assassinate the President of the US. Likewise, the adamant stance of WC supporters that there is really nothing wrong with the manner in which the WC conducted their investigation, is for all practical purposes as asinine as is the body kidnapping of JFK scenario. Even with "damage control" work such as that of "CASE CLOSED" in which the mysterious "SHOT THAT MISSED" was moved to a point prior to Z204/206, even with absolutely no evidence to support such a claim, the WC lie continues to become muddled. The "LN" supporters can sit tight in their protected "mindset" and enjoy many laughs while various elements of the CT community continue to come up with and expouse repeated claims which are relatively easily disproven, and serve to only discredit the ENTIRE Conspiracy Minded investigators into the assassination. That neither the CT Community nor the LN Community have been able to piece the puzzle of the actual assassination into it's proper places IS NOT the fault of the puzzle. Especially when it was the full intent of the "Puzzle Maker" to create this masterpiece of deception. Therefore, to "make up" their own visualization as to what the puzzle, when completed, actually looks like, while ignoring all of the factual evidence which demonstrates that this IS NOT what the puzzle actually looks like, is of course HUMAN, and the perceptions on which we base much of our lives. For over 40 years, the "LN Society" has had to support the SBT theory, as not unlike everyone else, they have completely failed to evaluate the factual evidence of the assassination and accepted the 10 pages of circular reasoning of the WC in regards to "THE SHOT THAT MISSED", and acceptance that the Z313 headshot was the last shot fired in the assassination shot sequence. Likewise, the "CT Society" has continued to foster complete dis-belief in the SBT theory, claim that the shots could have not been fired in the time span indicated, and not unlike the "LN Society", never bother to even verify if the Z313 headshot was in fact the last shot fired in the shooting sequence. So, as we all know, there is "Dumb & Dumber"! And, one must question exactly which is which! Those of the "CT" persuasion who at least recognize that the WC is/was an intentional misrepresentation of the facts (aka lie), yet accept that the Z313 headshot was the last shot as told to us by the WC, or those of the "LN" persuasion who merely accept the WC version of "THE SHOT THAT MISSED", and continue on in their ignorant bliss. Those of the "CT" persuasion who continue to perpetuate that the shots could not have been fired due to "Time Constrants", when in fact they have not even bothered to resolve that there was approximately 5.9 seconds from the first shot fired to the impact of the second shot/aka Z313, and that the third/last/final shot was not fired until some 30+ feet farther down the road from impact of the Z313/second shot. Or, those of the "LN" persuasion who do not have enough common sense to recognize that the third/last/final shot had to strike something/somewhere, and there has always been more than adequate evidence to indicate the position of the Presidential Limo at the time of this shot, as well as the witness testimony as regards the impact to the head of JFK as caused by this SHOT THAT DID NOT MISS! Exactly what kind of idiot thinks that the shooter could hit JFK at minimum, two out of three shots, yet could not even hit the entire Presidential Limousine and/or any of it's occupants with a third shot???? Rest assured that Gerald Ford; Arlen Specter; JBC; LBJ; and a host of others have gotten some good laughs at the full expense of much of the CT community, and are also most probably guilty of further feeding the flames in order that the CT could continue to "chase smoke". Hell! Even I get a good laugh now and then at exactly what the human species can be lead to believe. There was a "LONE ASSASSIN"! The WC is/was an intentional misrepresentation of the facts of the actual assassination! And, irrelevant of Mr. Simkin's and others "political agenda" against the bad ole US Government/CIA/FBI/ONI/OSS/George Bush/etc. The WC lie is far more closely related to "Texas Politics" than to any of the above. When "one" assures that the votes of numerous deceased persons are moved to a location where a mysterious fire can consume them and thereafter completely avoid any "recount", they are due a "big favor" in return. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) BRUCE MORTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's a grab-bag of tapes, 426 hours of conversations from January to June, 1972. John Connally, talking to Richard Nixon about John Kennedy's assassination. JOHN CONNALLY: I knew he was dead and I became unconscious. I was lying down in Nellie's lap, like this. And she had her head on top of me. And I had my eyes open. And I heard that bullet hit his head. And immediately, there was brain matter. Hell, I know brain matter because it was all over the car. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WC Testimony Governor CONNALLY-I just sat there, and Mrs. Connally pulled me over to her lap. She was sitting, of course, on the jump seat, so I reclined with my head in her lap, conscious all the time, and with my eyes open; and then, of course, the third shot sounded, and I heard the shot very clearly. I heard it hit him. I heard the shot hit something, and I assumed again--it never entered my mind that it ever hit anybody but the President. I heard it hit. It was a very loud noise, just that audible, very clear. Immediately I could see on my clothes, my clothing, I could see on the interior of the car which, as I recall, was a pale blue, brain tissue, which I immediately recognized, and I recall very well, on my trousers there was one chunk of brain tissue as big as almost my thumb, thumbnail Governor CONNALLY. Mrs. Connally. When she pulled me over into her lap, she could tell I was still breathing and moving, and she said, "Don't worry, Be quiet. You are going to be all right." She Just kept telling me I was going to be all right. Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Kennedy state anything at that time? Governor CONNALLY. Yes; I have to--I would say it was after the third shot when she said, "They have killed my husband." Mr. SPECTER. Did she say anything more? Governor CONNALLY. Yes; she said, I heard her say one time, "I have got his brains in my hand." Governor CONNALLY-------Obviously, it couldn't have been the third, because when the third shot was fired I was in a reclining position, and heard it, saw it and the effects of it, rather--I didn't see it, I saw the effects of it--so it obviously could not have been the third, and couldn't have been the first, in my judgment. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z343.jpg "Mrs. Kennedy cries out in anguish" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WC Version: Governor CONNALLY--so I reclined with my head in her lap, conscious all the time, and with my eyes open; and then, of course, the third shot sounded After the third shot, and I heard Roy Kellerman tell the driver, "Bill, get out of line." And then I saw him move, and I assumed he was moving a button or something on the panel of the automobile, and he said, "Get us to a hospital quick." I assumed he was saying this to the patrolman, the motorcycle police who were leading us. At about that time, we began to pull out of the cavalcade, out of the line, and I lost consciousness and didn't regain consciousness until we got to the hospital. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Videotape Version: JOHN CONNALLY: I knew he was dead and I became unconscious ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nellie Connally's book: "After the first shot, Jackie was aware that her husband was wounded and in trouble. After the second---the one that mangled my John---she was already moving to help him. After the third, her husband's head had been shattered. Bits of flesh and blood and brain flew everywhere--what felt to me like buckshot and had stung me like hot hail as I bent over John." "No, no, no! he cried out. Then---a second shot. My husband spun in his seat. He had been hit in the back by the second bullet. "My God," he blurted, "they are going to kill us all!"---then crumpled forward. * *Note: Ever try blurting and/or yelling "My God, they are going to kill us all" with 5 inches of the right fifth rib blown into the right lung? All I thought was, What can I do to help John? I pulled him into my lap. I didn't want him hurt any more. A third shot rang out. I felt something falling all over us. I looked up. Tiny bits of bloody matter covered my suit, the car, everything. From the backseat, I heard Jackie's frantic voice. "They've killed my husband! I have his brains in my hand" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mr. HILL. At the time of the shooting, when I got into the rear of the car, she said, "My God, they have shot his head off." Between there and the hospital she just said, "Jack, Jack, what have they done to you," and sobbed. Mr. HILL. This is the first sound that I heard; yes, sir. I jumped from the car, realizing that something was wrong, ran to the Presidential limousine. Just about as I reached it, there was another sound, which was different than the first sound. I think I described it in my statement as though someone was shooting a revolver into a hard object--it seemed to have some type of an echo. I put my right foot, I believe it was, on the left rear step of the automobile, and I had a hold of the handgrip with my hand, when the car lurched forward. I lost my footing and I had to run about three or four more steps before I could get back up in the car.Between the time I originally grabbed the handhold and until I was up on the car, Mrs. Kennedy--the second noise that I heard had removed a portion of the President's head, and he had slumped noticeably to his left. Mrs. Kennedy had jumped up from the seat and was, it appeared to me, reaching for something coming off the right rear bumper of the car, Mr. SPECTER. When, in relationship to the second shot, did the car accelerate that is, the President's car? Mr. HILL. Almost simultaneously Mr. SPECTER. How many shots have you described that you heard? Mr. HILL. Two. Mr. SPECTER. Did you hear any more than two shots? Mr. HILL. No, sir Mr. SPECTER. When, in relationship to the second shot, did Mrs. Kennedy move out of the rear seat? Mr. HILL. Just after it. Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, did you observe as to Governor Connally's condition on arrival at Parkland? Mr. HILL. He was conscious. There was a large amount of blood in the lower abdominal area. He was helped from the automobile to the stretcher, and I do not recall him saying anything, but I know that he was conscious. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mr. SPECTER. Now, how many shots, or how many noises have you just described that you heard? Mr. GREER. I know there was three that I heard--three. But I cannot remember any more than probably three. I know there was three anyway that I heard Mr. GREER. I knew that after I heard the second one, that is when I looked over my shoulder, and I was conscious that there was something wrong, because that is when I saw Governor Connally. And when I turned around again, to the best of my recollection there was another one, right immediately after. Mr. SPECTER. You testified that at the second noise you glanced over your shoulder. Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. Mr. SPECTER. Which shoulder did you glance over? Mr. GREER. Right shoulder Mr. SPECTER. And describe or indicate how far you turned your head to the right at that time? Mr. GREER. Just so that my eyes over, caught the Governor, I could see, I couldn't see the President. I just could see the Governor. I made a quick glance and back again. Mr. SPECTER. Exactly where was Governor Connally when you first caught him out of the corner of your eye? Mr. GREER. He was--he seemed to be falling a little bit toward Mrs. Connally, to the left. He started to go over a little bit to the left. Mr. SPECTER. And how far did you catch his movement during the time you were able to observe him? Mr. GREER. Just a second. He probably hadn't gotten his shoulder, he hadn't fell down or anything. He probably was in a position such as I am now. Mr. SPECTER. Did he fall to the rear or to the side or how? Mr. GREER. In my opinion, he fell toward Mrs. Connally which would be to his left or to his side. Mr. SPECTER. Did he fall then on his left shoulder and arm or in some other way? Mr. GREER. He appeared to me to be falling on his left shoulder when I glanced. He had only started to move that way whenever he--when I saw him. Mr. SPECTER. Did you step on the accelerator before, simultaneously or after Mr. Kellerman instructed you to accelerate? Mr. GREER. It was about simultaneously. Mr. SPECTER. So that it was your reaction to accelerate prior to the time-- Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. Mr. SPECTER. You had gotten that instruction? Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; it was my reaction that caused me to accelerate. Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect whether you accelerated before or at the same time or after the third shot? Mr. GREER. I couldn't really say. Just as soon as I turned my head back from the second shot, right away I accelerated right then. It was a matter of my reflexes to the accelerator. Mr. SPECTER. Was it at about that time that you heard the third shot? Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; just as soon as I turned my head. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mr. KELLERMAN. Correct; yes, sir. Governor Connally by that time is lying flat backwards into her lap-- Mrs. Connally--and she was lying flat over him. Mr. SPECTER. Who was lying flat over him? Mr. KELLERMAN. Mrs. Connally was lying flat over the Governor Mr. SPECTER. Now, in your prior testimony you described a flurry of shells into the car. How many shots did you hear after the first noise which you described as sounding like a firecracker? Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, these shells came in all together. Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to say how many you heard? Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to say two, and it was like a double bang--bang, bang. Mr. SPECTER. You mean now two shots in addition to the first noise? Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; yes, sir; at least. Mr. KELLERMAN. Our car accelerated immediately on the time-at the time--this flurry of shots came into it. Mr. SPECTER. Would you say the acceleration-- Mr. KELLERMAN. Between the second and third shot. Senator COOPER. When you were speaking of a flurry of shots, was there a longer interval between the first shot and the second shot as compared to the interval between the second shot and the third shot? Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. Mr. KELLERMAN. Fine. As we arrived at the hospital I immediately got out of the car. Our followup car is in back of us, as you will recall. I yelled to the agents, "Get in"--"Go get us two stretchers on wheels." In the meantime in a matter of seconds--I don't know how they got out so fast--I turned right around to the back door and opened it. By this time Mrs. Connally had raised up, and the Governor is lying in her lap, face up. His eyes are open and he is looking at me, and I am fairly sure he is alive. By this time I noticed the two stretchers coming out of the emergency room, and I said to the Governor, I said, "Governor, don't worry; everything is going to be all right." And he nodded his head, which I was fairly convinced that that man was alive. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Mr. HILL. I heard Special Agent Kellerman say on the radio, "To the nearest hospital, quick." Mr. SPECTER. Any other comment? Mr. HILL. He said, "We have been hit." Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. Good. There was enough for me to verify that the man was hit. So, in the same motion I come right back and grabbed the speaker and said to the driver, "Let's get out of here; we are hit," and grabbed the mike and I said, "Lawson, this is Kellerman,"--this is Lawson, who is in the front car. "We are hit; get us to the hospital immediately." Now, in the seconds that I talked just now, a flurry of shells come into the car. I then looked back and this time Mr. Hill, who was riding on the left front bumper of our followup car, was on the back trunk of that car; the President was sideways down into. the back seat. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mr. ALTGENS - This would put me at approximately this area here, which would be about 15 feet from me at the time he was shot in the head--about 15 feet from the car on the west side of the car--on the side that Mrs. Kennedy was riding in the car. Mr. ALTGENS - Yes. What made me almost certain that the shot came from behind was because at the time I was looking at the President, just as he was struck, it caused him to move a bit forward. He seemed as if at the time----well, he was in a position-- sort of immobile. He wasn't upright. He was at an angle but when it hit him, it seemed to have just lodged--it seemed as if he were hung up on a seat button or something like that. It knocked him just enough forward that he came right on down. There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing, so much so that it indicated to me that the shot came out of the left side of his head. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 regarding the limo, I've heard of a] slowdown-only, 2] less than one second stop, 3] 2 second stop -- never heard the 4 second time before. Of course all this is meaningless if what we see in Moorman 5 was around the the 2nd shot, the final head shot taking place around Z-355-60. What supports that contention is the SS/FBI reenactment, DP surveyor data .... Well, David ... you were a member of the looney forum when all that discussion was going on and I brought up to Burnham that his time allotment for the limo stop was several seconds diferent than othes who were at that time claiming to have seen the so-called other film. Why, if you were reading the forum at that time, that you would not have heard about the limo stop lasting 3- 4 seconds is something that I cannot explain other than you were not paying enough attention or have merely forgotten it. It was those variances in these other film claims that caused me to question that so many individuals had seen the same 'other film'. Lying about seeing another film? Why? The point and rational of that? Its possible existence doesn't help the Z-film alteration crowd, and its definately a pain in the ass for the LNutter's... It's alleged existence advances the case not one inch.... Why would some rabid alterationist make a false claim in support of their beliefs ... you are kidding me - right! Who might be dishonest enough to make such a claim ... maybe the same people who were being given all these different versions of another film and then claiming that they alll belonged to a list of people who say saw the same 'other film'. Bill Miller C'mon now Bill, every forum you join, disagreeing with your position, is a *looney* forum. What the hell is new about that? You know damn right and well if the film alterationists folded up the tent, you'd have to drift back to obscurity, inflated egos being what they are, I doubt you'd stand for that, yes? -- I think your shucking and jiving AGAIN when it comes to alleged 3-4 second limo stop. If there's another film, there's another film, what makes you so nervous about it's possible existence? So, I wouldn't let *not* seeing the other film get you down, I haven't seen it either. Haven't spent much bandwidth dealing with it either. Rabid Lone Neuter's and WC supporters NEED the CTer's. Rabid Lone Neuter's and WC supporters NEED the CTer's. The issues of the assassination "NEED" neither the "Rabid Lone Neuter's", nor the often completely asinine theories of some of the "CTer's". Common sense dictates that there is something not quite right with the WC Investigation. Unfortunately, all are not born with, nor do they ever develop "common sense". Were it so, then it is most unlikely that such crocks of BS as Body Snatchers and wound alteration specialists would have ever gotten anything more than a good laugh. And, anyone with even a smidget of Common Sense would recognize that although there was most probably a "Lone Assassin", one can be assured that the actual event WAS NOT the end result of some "Lone Nut" who had nothing better to do on 11/22/63 than assassinate the President of the US. Likewise, the adamant stance of WC supporters that there is really nothing wrong with the manner in which the WC conducted their investigation, is for all practical purposes as asinine as is the body kidnapping of JFK scenario. Even with "damage control" work such as that of "CASE CLOSED" in which the mysterious "SHOT THAT MISSED" was moved to a point prior to Z204/206, even with absolutely no evidence to support such a claim, the WC lie continues to become muddled. The "LN" supporters can sit tight in their protected "mindset" and enjoy many laughs while various elements of the CT community continue to come up with and expouse repeated claims which are relatively easily disproven, and serve to only discredit the ENTIRE Conspiracy Minded investigators into the assassination. That neither the CT Community nor the LN Community have been able to piece the puzzle of the actual assassination into it's proper places IS NOT the fault of the puzzle. Especially when it was the full intent of the "Puzzle Maker" to create this masterpiece of deception. Therefore, to "make up" their own visualization as to what the puzzle, when completed, actually looks like, while ignoring all of the factual evidence which demonstrates that this IS NOT what the puzzle actually looks like, is of course HUMAN, and the perceptions on which we base much of our lives. For over 40 years, the "LN Society" has had to support the SBT theory, as not unlike everyone else, they have completely failed to evaluate the factual evidence of the assassination and accepted the 10 pages of circular reasoning of the WC in regards to "THE SHOT THAT MISSED", and acceptance that the Z313 headshot was the last shot fired in the assassination shot sequence. Likewise, the "CT Society" has continued to foster complete dis-belief in the SBT theory, claim that the shots could have not been fired in the time span indicated, and not unlike the "LN Society", never bother to even verify if the Z313 headshot was in fact the last shot fired in the shooting sequence. So, as we all know, there is "Dumb & Dumber"! And, one must question exactly which is which! Those of the "CT" persuasion who at least recognize that the WC is/was an intentional misrepresentation of the facts (aka lie), yet accept that the Z313 headshot was the last shot as told to us by the WC, or those of the "LN" persuasion who merely accept the WC version of "THE SHOT THAT MISSED", and continue on in their ignorant bliss. Those of the "CT" persuasion who continue to perpetuate that the shots could not have been fired due to "Time Constrants", when in fact they have not even bothered to resolve that there was approximately 5.9 seconds from the first shot fired to the impact of the second shot/aka Z313, and that the third/last/final shot was not fired until some 30+ feet farther down the road from impact of the Z313/second shot. Or, those of the "LN" persuasion who do not have enough common sense to recognize that the third/last/final shot had to strike something/somewhere, and there has always been more than adequate evidence to indicate the position of the Presidential Limo at the time of this shot, as well as the witness testimony as regards the impact to the head of JFK as caused by this SHOT THAT DID NOT MISS! Exactly what kind of idiot thinks that the shooter could hit JFK at minimum, two out of three shots, yet could not even hit the entire Presidential Limousine and/or any of it's occupants with a third shot???? Rest assured that Gerald Ford; Arlen Specter; JBC; LBJ; and a host of others have gotten some good laughs at the full expense of much of the CT community, and are also most probably guilty of further feeding the flames in order that the CT could continue to "chase smoke". Hell! Even I get a good laugh now and then at exactly what the human species can be lead to believe. There was a "LONE ASSASSIN"! The WC is/was an intentional misrepresentation of the facts of the actual assassination! And, irrelevant of Mr. Simkin's and others "political agenda" against the bad ole US Government/CIA/FBI/ONI/OSS/George Bush/etc. The WC lie is far more closely related to "Texas Politics" than to any of the above. When "one" assures that the votes of numerous deceased persons are moved to a location where a mysterious fire can consume them and thereafter completely avoid any "recount", they are due a "big favor" in return. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) BRUCE MORTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's a grab-bag of tapes, 426 hours of conversations from January to June, 1972. John Connally, talking to Richard Nixon about John Kennedy's assassination. JOHN CONNALLY: I knew he was dead and I became unconscious. I was lying down in Nellie's lap, like this. And she had her head on top of me. And I had my eyes open. And I heard that bullet hit his head. And immediately, there was brain matter. Hell, I know brain matter because it was all over the car. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WC Testimony Governor CONNALLY-I just sat there, and Mrs. Connally pulled me over to her lap. She was sitting, of course, on the jump seat, so I reclined with my head in her lap, conscious all the time, and with my eyes open; and then, of course, the third shot sounded, and I heard the shot very clearly. I heard it hit him. I heard the shot hit something, and I assumed again--it never entered my mind that it ever hit anybody but the President. I heard it hit. It was a very loud noise, just that audible, very clear. Immediately I could see on my clothes, my clothing, I could see on the interior of the car which, as I recall, was a pale blue, brain tissue, which I immediately recognized, and I recall very well, on my trousers there was one chunk of brain tissue as big as almost my thumb, thumbnail Governor CONNALLY. Mrs. Connally. When she pulled me over into her lap, she could tell I was still breathing and moving, and she said, "Don't worry, Be quiet. You are going to be all right." She Just kept telling me I was going to be all right. Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Kennedy state anything at that time? Governor CONNALLY. Yes; I have to--I would say it was after the third shot when she said, "They have killed my husband." Mr. SPECTER. Did she say anything more? Governor CONNALLY. Yes; she said, I heard her say one time, "I have got his brains in my hand." Governor CONNALLY-------Obviously, it couldn't have been the third, because when the third shot was fired I was in a reclining position, and heard it, saw it and the effects of it, rather--I didn't see it, I saw the effects of it--so it obviously could not have been the third, and couldn't have been the first, in my judgment. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z343.jpg "Mrs. Kennedy cries out in anguish" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WC Version: Governor CONNALLY--so I reclined with my head in her lap, conscious all the time, and with my eyes open; and then, of course, the third shot sounded After the third shot, and I heard Roy Kellerman tell the driver, "Bill, get out of line." And then I saw him move, and I assumed he was moving a button or something on the panel of the automobile, and he said, "Get us to a hospital quick." I assumed he was saying this to the patrolman, the motorcycle police who were leading us. At about that time, we began to pull out of the cavalcade, out of the line, and I lost consciousness and didn't regain consciousness until we got to the hospital. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Videotape Version: JOHN CONNALLY: I knew he was dead and I became unconscious ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nellie Connally's book: "After the first shot, Jackie was aware that her husband was wounded and in trouble. After the second---the one that mangled my John---she was already moving to help him. After the third, her husband's head had been shattered. Bits of flesh and blood and brain flew everywhere--what felt to me like buckshot and had stung me like hot hail as I bent over John." "No, no, no! he cried out. Then---a second shot. My husband spun in his seat. He had been hit in the back by the second bullet. "My God," he blurted, "they are going to kill us all!"---then crumpled forward. * *Note: Ever try blurting and/or yelling "My God, they are going to kill us all" with 5 inches of the right fifth rib blown into the right lung? All I thought was, What can I do to help John? I pulled him into my lap. I didn't want him hurt any more. A third shot rang out. I felt something falling all over us. I looked up. Tiny bits of bloody matter covered my suit, the car, everything. From the backseat, I heard Jackie's frantic voice. "They've killed my husband! I have his brains in my hand" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mr. HILL. At the time of the shooting, when I got into the rear of the car, she said, "My God, they have shot his head off." Between there and the hospital she just said, "Jack, Jack, what have they done to you," and sobbed. Mr. HILL. This is the first sound that I heard; yes, sir. I jumped from the car, realizing that something was wrong, ran to the Presidential limousine. Just about as I reached it, there was another sound, which was different than the first sound. I think I described it in my statement as though someone was shooting a revolver into a hard object--it seemed to have some type of an echo. I put my right foot, I believe it was, on the left rear step of the automobile, and I had a hold of the handgrip with my hand, when the car lurched forward. I lost my footing and I had to run about three or four more steps before I could get back up in the car.Between the time I originally grabbed the handhold and until I was up on the car, Mrs. Kennedy--the second noise that I heard had removed a portion of the President's head, and he had slumped noticeably to his left. Mrs. Kennedy had jumped up from the seat and was, it appeared to me, reaching for something coming off the right rear bumper of the car, Mr. SPECTER. When, in relationship to the second shot, did the car accelerate that is, the President's car? Mr. HILL. Almost simultaneously Mr. SPECTER. How many shots have you described that you heard? Mr. HILL. Two. Mr. SPECTER. Did you hear any more than two shots? Mr. HILL. No, sir Mr. SPECTER. When, in relationship to the second shot, did Mrs. Kennedy move out of the rear seat? Mr. HILL. Just after it. Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, did you observe as to Governor Connally's condition on arrival at Parkland? Mr. HILL. He was conscious. There was a large amount of blood in the lower abdominal area. He was helped from the automobile to the stretcher, and I do not recall him saying anything, but I know that he was conscious. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mr. SPECTER. Now, how many shots, or how many noises have you just described that you heard? Mr. GREER. I know there was three that I heard--three. But I cannot remember any more than probably three. I know there was three anyway that I heard Mr. GREER. I knew that after I heard the second one, that is when I looked over my shoulder, and I was conscious that there was something wrong, because that is when I saw Governor Connally. And when I turned around again, to the best of my recollection there was another one, right immediately after. Mr. SPECTER. You testified that at the second noise you glanced over your shoulder. Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. Mr. SPECTER. Which shoulder did you glance over? Mr. GREER. Right shoulder Mr. SPECTER. And describe or indicate how far you turned your head to the right at that time? Mr. GREER. Just so that my eyes over, caught the Governor, I could see, I couldn't see the President. I just could see the Governor. I made a quick glance and back again. Mr. SPECTER. Exactly where was Governor Connally when you first caught him out of the corner of your eye? Mr. GREER. He was--he seemed to be falling a little bit toward Mrs. Connally, to the left. He started to go over a little bit to the left. Mr. SPECTER. And how far did you catch his movement during the time you were able to observe him? Mr. GREER. Just a second. He probably hadn't gotten his shoulder, he hadn't fell down or anything. He probably was in a position such as I am now. Mr. SPECTER. Did he fall to the rear or to the side or how? Mr. GREER. In my opinion, he fell toward Mrs. Connally which would be to his left or to his side. Mr. SPECTER. Did he fall then on his left shoulder and arm or in some other way? Mr. GREER. He appeared to me to be falling on his left shoulder when I glanced. He had only started to move that way whenever he--when I saw him. Mr. SPECTER. Did you step on the accelerator before, simultaneously or after Mr. Kellerman instructed you to accelerate? Mr. GREER. It was about simultaneously. Mr. SPECTER. So that it was your reaction to accelerate prior to the time-- Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. Mr. SPECTER. You had gotten that instruction? Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; it was my reaction that caused me to accelerate. Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect whether you accelerated before or at the same time or after the third shot? Mr. GREER. I couldn't really say. Just as soon as I turned my head back from the second shot, right away I accelerated right then. It was a matter of my reflexes to the accelerator. Mr. SPECTER. Was it at about that time that you heard the third shot? Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; just as soon as I turned my head. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mr. KELLERMAN. Correct; yes, sir. Governor Connally by that time is lying flat backwards into her lap-- Mrs. Connally--and she was lying flat over him. Mr. SPECTER. Who was lying flat over him? Mr. KELLERMAN. Mrs. Connally was lying flat over the Governor Mr. SPECTER. Now, in your prior testimony you described a flurry of shells into the car. How many shots did you hear after the first noise which you described as sounding like a firecracker? Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, these shells came in all together. Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to say how many you heard? Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to say two, and it was like a double bang--bang, bang. Mr. SPECTER. You mean now two shots in addition to the first noise? Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; yes, sir; at least. Mr. KELLERMAN. Our car accelerated immediately on the time-at the time--this flurry of shots came into it. Mr. SPECTER. Would you say the acceleration-- Mr. KELLERMAN. Between the second and third shot. Senator COOPER. When you were speaking of a flurry of shots, was there a longer interval between the first shot and the second shot as compared to the interval between the second shot and the third shot? Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. Mr. KELLERMAN. Fine. As we arrived at the hospital I immediately got out of the car. Our followup car is in back of us, as you will recall. I yelled to the agents, "Get in"--"Go get us two stretchers on wheels." In the meantime in a matter of seconds--I don't know how they got out so fast--I turned right around to the back door and opened it. By this time Mrs. Connally had raised up, and the Governor is lying in her lap, face up. His eyes are open and he is looking at me, and I am fairly sure he is alive. By this time I noticed the two stretchers coming out of the emergency room, and I said to the Governor, I said, "Governor, don't worry; everything is going to be all right." And he nodded his head, which I was fairly convinced that that man was alive. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Mr. HILL. I heard Special Agent Kellerman say on the radio, "To the nearest hospital, quick." Mr. SPECTER. Any other comment? Mr. HILL. He said, "We have been hit." Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. Good. There was enough for me to verify that the man was hit. So, in the same motion I come right back and grabbed the speaker and said to the driver, "Let's get out of here; we are hit," and grabbed the mike and I said, "Lawson, this is Kellerman,"--this is Lawson, who is in the front car. "We are hit; get us to the hospital immediately." Now, in the seconds that I talked just now, a flurry of shells come into the car. I then looked back and this time Mr. Hill, who was riding on the left front bumper of our followup car, was on the back trunk of that car; the President was sideways down into. the back seat. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mr. ALTGENS - This would put me at approximately this area here, which would be about 15 feet from me at the time he was shot in the head--about 15 feet from the car on the west side of the car--on the side that Mrs. Kennedy was riding in the car. Mr. ALTGENS - Yes. What made me almost certain that the shot came from behind was because at the time I was looking at the President, just as he was struck, it caused him to move a bit forward. He seemed as if at the time----well, he was in a position-- sort of immobile. He wasn't upright. He was at an angle but when it hit him, it seemed to have just lodged--it seemed as if he were hung up on a seat button or something like that. It knocked him just enough forward that he came right on down. There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing, so much so that it indicated to me that the shot came out of the left side of his head. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0449a.htm Guess that we can all go home now, or, we could wait until Mr. Speer determines how a bullet which is fired on a downward angle of aproximately 11 degrees downward could strike JFK in the edge of the hairline in the neck, tunnel through the fleshy portion of the rear of the neck, and thus strike in the vicinity of the EOP.* (exactly what position JFK's head would have had to be in.) And lastly, one would be quite negligent to omit: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mr. SPECTER - Now, on one detail on your report, Dr. Humes, on page 4, on the third line down, you note that there is a lacerated wound measuring 15 by 6 cm. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Which, someone should correct Specter's claim to the correct 15mm vertically elongated wound of entry into the EOP vicinity of the skull of JFK, and one should really take the time to determine the angle of impact necessary to create a vertically elongated entrance wound of 15mm in length. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- and, one should truely pay close attention to the "Ragged/Slanting" arrow as drawn by Dr. Boswell. http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0036a.htm As, what appears to be slanting leftwards and "UP", could easily be slanting downwards with the head bent forward and turned to the right. and, one would truly want to further examine the second bullet hole through the coat of JFK which struck just at the edge of the coat collar, just prior to exiting the coat and striking JFK in the edge of the hairline of the neck. Commander HUMES - Yes, sir. This exhibit is a grey suit coat stated to have been worn by the President on the day of his death. Situated to the right of the midline high in the back portion of the coat is a defect, one margin of which is semicircular. Situated above it just below the collar is an additional defect. It is our opinion that the lower of these defects corresponds essentially with the point of entrance of the missile at Point C on Exhibit 385. Mr. SPECTER - How about the upper one of the collar you have described, does that go all the way through? Commander HUMES - Yes, sir; it goes all the way through. It is not--wait a minute, excuse me it is not so clearly a puncture wound as the one below. Mr. SPECTER - Does the upper one go all the way through in the same course? Commander HUMES - No. Mr. SPECTER - Through the inner side as it went through the outer side? Commander HUMES - No, in an irregular fashion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 regarding the limo, I've heard of a] slowdown-only, 2] less than one second stop, 3] 2 second stop -- never heard the 4 second time before. Of course all this is meaningless if what we see in Moorman 5 was around the the 2nd shot, the final head shot taking place around Z-355-60. What supports that contention is the SS/FBI reenactment, DP surveyor data .... Well, David ... you were a member of the looney forum when all that discussion was going on and I brought up to Burnham that his time allotment for the limo stop was several seconds diferent than othes who were at that time claiming to have seen the so-called other film. Why, if you were reading the forum at that time, that you would not have heard about the limo stop lasting 3- 4 seconds is something that I cannot explain other than you were not paying enough attention or have merely forgotten it. It was those variances in these other film claims that caused me to question that so many individuals had seen the same 'other film'. Lying about seeing another film? Why? The point and rational of that? Its possible existence doesn't help the Z-film alteration crowd, and its definately a pain in the ass for the LNutter's... It's alleged existence advances the case not one inch.... Why would some rabid alterationist make a false claim in support of their beliefs ... you are kidding me - right! Who might be dishonest enough to make such a claim ... maybe the same people who were being given all these different versions of another film and then claiming that they alll belonged to a list of people who say saw the same 'other film'. Bill Miller C'mon now Bill, every forum you join, disagreeing with your position, is a *looney* forum. What the hell is new about that? You know damn right and well if the film alterationists folded up the tent, you'd have to drift back to obscurity, inflated egos being what they are, I doubt you'd stand for that, yes? -- I think your shucking and jiving AGAIN when it comes to alleged 3-4 second limo stop. If there's another film, there's another film, what makes you so nervous about it's possible existence? So, I wouldn't let *not* seeing the other film get you down, I haven't seen it either. Haven't spent much bandwidth dealing with it either. Rabid Lone Neuter's and WC supporters NEED the CTer's. Rabid Lone Neuter's and WC supporters NEED the CTer's. The issues of the assassination "NEED" neither the "Rabid Lone Neuter's", nor the often completely asinine theories of some of the "CTer's". Common sense dictates that there is something not quite right with the WC Investigation. Unfortunately, all are not born with, nor do they ever develop "common sense". Were it so, then it is most unlikely that such crocks of BS as Body Snatchers and wound alteration specialists would have ever gotten anything more than a good laugh. And, anyone with even a smidget of Common Sense would recognize that although there was most probably a "Lone Assassin", one can be assured that the actual event WAS NOT the end result of some "Lone Nut" who had nothing better to do on 11/22/63 than assassinate the President of the US. Likewise, the adamant stance of WC supporters that there is really nothing wrong with the manner in which the WC conducted their investigation, is for all practical purposes as asinine as is the body kidnapping of JFK scenario. Even with "damage control" work such as that of "CASE CLOSED" in which the mysterious "SHOT THAT MISSED" was moved to a point prior to Z204/206, even with absolutely no evidence to support such a claim, the WC lie continues to become muddled. The "LN" supporters can sit tight in their protected "mindset" and enjoy many laughs while various elements of the CT community continue to come up with and expouse repeated claims which are relatively easily disproven, and serve to only discredit the ENTIRE Conspiracy Minded investigators into the assassination. That neither the CT Community nor the LN Community have been able to piece the puzzle of the actual assassination into it's proper places IS NOT the fault of the puzzle. Especially when it was the full intent of the "Puzzle Maker" to create this masterpiece of deception. Therefore, to "make up" their own visualization as to what the puzzle, when completed, actually looks like, while ignoring all of the factual evidence which demonstrates that this IS NOT what the puzzle actually looks like, is of course HUMAN, and the perceptions on which we base much of our lives. For over 40 years, the "LN Society" has had to support the SBT theory, as not unlike everyone else, they have completely failed to evaluate the factual evidence of the assassination and accepted the 10 pages of circular reasoning of the WC in regards to "THE SHOT THAT MISSED", and acceptance that the Z313 headshot was the last shot fired in the assassination shot sequence. Likewise, the "CT Society" has continued to foster complete dis-belief in the SBT theory, claim that the shots could have not been fired in the time span indicated, and not unlike the "LN Society", never bother to even verify if the Z313 headshot was in fact the last shot fired in the shooting sequence. So, as we all know, there is "Dumb & Dumber"! And, one must question exactly which is which! Those of the "CT" persuasion who at least recognize that the WC is/was an intentional misrepresentation of the facts (aka lie), yet accept that the Z313 headshot was the last shot as told to us by the WC, or those of the "LN" persuasion who merely accept the WC version of "THE SHOT THAT MISSED", and continue on in their ignorant bliss. Those of the "CT" persuasion who continue to perpetuate that the shots could not have been fired due to "Time Constrants", when in fact they have not even bothered to resolve that there was approximately 5.9 seconds from the first shot fired to the impact of the second shot/aka Z313, and that the third/last/final shot was not fired until some 30+ feet farther down the road from impact of the Z313/second shot. Or, those of the "LN" persuasion who do not have enough common sense to recognize that the third/last/final shot had to strike something/somewhere, and there has always been more than adequate evidence to indicate the position of the Presidential Limo at the time of this shot, as well as the witness testimony as regards the impact to the head of JFK as caused by this SHOT THAT DID NOT MISS! Exactly what kind of idiot thinks that the shooter could hit JFK at minimum, two out of three shots, yet could not even hit the entire Presidential Limousine and/or any of it's occupants with a third shot???? Rest assured that Gerald Ford; Arlen Specter; JBC; LBJ; and a host of others have gotten some good laughs at the full expense of much of the CT community, and are also most probably guilty of further feeding the flames in order that the CT could continue to "chase smoke". Hell! Even I get a good laugh now and then at exactly what the human species can be lead to believe. There was a "LONE ASSASSIN"! The WC is/was an intentional misrepresentation of the facts of the actual assassination! And, irrelevant of Mr. Simkin's and others "political agenda" against the bad ole US Government/CIA/FBI/ONI/OSS/George Bush/etc. The WC lie is far more closely related to "Texas Politics" than to any of the above. When "one" assures that the votes of numerous deceased persons are moved to a location where a mysterious fire can consume them and thereafter completely avoid any "recount", they are due a "big favor" in return. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) BRUCE MORTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's a grab-bag of tapes, 426 hours of conversations from January to June, 1972. John Connally, talking to Richard Nixon about John Kennedy's assassination. JOHN CONNALLY: I knew he was dead and I became unconscious. I was lying down in Nellie's lap, like this. And she had her head on top of me. And I had my eyes open. And I heard that bullet hit his head. And immediately, there was brain matter. Hell, I know brain matter because it was all over the car. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WC Testimony Governor CONNALLY-I just sat there, and Mrs. Connally pulled me over to her lap. She was sitting, of course, on the jump seat, so I reclined with my head in her lap, conscious all the time, and with my eyes open; and then, of course, the third shot sounded, and I heard the shot very clearly. I heard it hit him. I heard the shot hit something, and I assumed again--it never entered my mind that it ever hit anybody but the President. I heard it hit. It was a very loud noise, just that audible, very clear. Immediately I could see on my clothes, my clothing, I could see on the interior of the car which, as I recall, was a pale blue, brain tissue, which I immediately recognized, and I recall very well, on my trousers there was one chunk of brain tissue as big as almost my thumb, thumbnail Governor CONNALLY. Mrs. Connally. When she pulled me over into her lap, she could tell I was still breathing and moving, and she said, "Don't worry, Be quiet. You are going to be all right." She Just kept telling me I was going to be all right. Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Kennedy state anything at that time? Governor CONNALLY. Yes; I have to--I would say it was after the third shot when she said, "They have killed my husband." Mr. SPECTER. Did she say anything more? Governor CONNALLY. Yes; she said, I heard her say one time, "I have got his brains in my hand." Governor CONNALLY-------Obviously, it couldn't have been the third, because when the third shot was fired I was in a reclining position, and heard it, saw it and the effects of it, rather--I didn't see it, I saw the effects of it--so it obviously could not have been the third, and couldn't have been the first, in my judgment. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z343.jpg "Mrs. Kennedy cries out in anguish" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WC Version: Governor CONNALLY--so I reclined with my head in her lap, conscious all the time, and with my eyes open; and then, of course, the third shot sounded After the third shot, and I heard Roy Kellerman tell the driver, "Bill, get out of line." And then I saw him move, and I assumed he was moving a button or something on the panel of the automobile, and he said, "Get us to a hospital quick." I assumed he was saying this to the patrolman, the motorcycle police who were leading us. At about that time, we began to pull out of the cavalcade, out of the line, and I lost consciousness and didn't regain consciousness until we got to the hospital. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Videotape Version: JOHN CONNALLY: I knew he was dead and I became unconscious ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nellie Connally's book: "After the first shot, Jackie was aware that her husband was wounded and in trouble. After the second---the one that mangled my John---she was already moving to help him. After the third, her husband's head had been shattered. Bits of flesh and blood and brain flew everywhere--what felt to me like buckshot and had stung me like hot hail as I bent over John." "No, no, no! he cried out. Then---a second shot. My husband spun in his seat. He had been hit in the back by the second bullet. "My God," he blurted, "they are going to kill us all!"---then crumpled forward. * *Note: Ever try blurting and/or yelling "My God, they are going to kill us all" with 5 inches of the right fifth rib blown into the right lung? All I thought was, What can I do to help John? I pulled him into my lap. I didn't want him hurt any more. A third shot rang out. I felt something falling all over us. I looked up. Tiny bits of bloody matter covered my suit, the car, everything. From the backseat, I heard Jackie's frantic voice. "They've killed my husband! I have his brains in my hand" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mr. HILL. At the time of the shooting, when I got into the rear of the car, she said, "My God, they have shot his head off." Between there and the hospital she just said, "Jack, Jack, what have they done to you," and sobbed. Mr. HILL. This is the first sound that I heard; yes, sir. I jumped from the car, realizing that something was wrong, ran to the Presidential limousine. Just about as I reached it, there was another sound, which was different than the first sound. I think I described it in my statement as though someone was shooting a revolver into a hard object--it seemed to have some type of an echo. I put my right foot, I believe it was, on the left rear step of the automobile, and I had a hold of the handgrip with my hand, when the car lurched forward. I lost my footing and I had to run about three or four more steps before I could get back up in the car.Between the time I originally grabbed the handhold and until I was up on the car, Mrs. Kennedy--the second noise that I heard had removed a portion of the President's head, and he had slumped noticeably to his left. Mrs. Kennedy had jumped up from the seat and was, it appeared to me, reaching for something coming off the right rear bumper of the car, Mr. SPECTER. When, in relationship to the second shot, did the car accelerate that is, the President's car? Mr. HILL. Almost simultaneously Mr. SPECTER. How many shots have you described that you heard? Mr. HILL. Two. Mr. SPECTER. Did you hear any more than two shots? Mr. HILL. No, sir Mr. SPECTER. When, in relationship to the second shot, did Mrs. Kennedy move out of the rear seat? Mr. HILL. Just after it. Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, did you observe as to Governor Connally's condition on arrival at Parkland? Mr. HILL. He was conscious. There was a large amount of blood in the lower abdominal area. He was helped from the automobile to the stretcher, and I do not recall him saying anything, but I know that he was conscious. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mr. SPECTER. Now, how many shots, or how many noises have you just described that you heard? Mr. GREER. I know there was three that I heard--three. But I cannot remember any more than probably three. I know there was three anyway that I heard Mr. GREER. I knew that after I heard the second one, that is when I looked over my shoulder, and I was conscious that there was something wrong, because that is when I saw Governor Connally. And when I turned around again, to the best of my recollection there was another one, right immediately after. Mr. SPECTER. You testified that at the second noise you glanced over your shoulder. Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. Mr. SPECTER. Which shoulder did you glance over? Mr. GREER. Right shoulder Mr. SPECTER. And describe or indicate how far you turned your head to the right at that time? Mr. GREER. Just so that my eyes over, caught the Governor, I could see, I couldn't see the President. I just could see the Governor. I made a quick glance and back again. Mr. SPECTER. Exactly where was Governor Connally when you first caught him out of the corner of your eye? Mr. GREER. He was--he seemed to be falling a little bit toward Mrs. Connally, to the left. He started to go over a little bit to the left. Mr. SPECTER. And how far did you catch his movement during the time you were able to observe him? Mr. GREER. Just a second. He probably hadn't gotten his shoulder, he hadn't fell down or anything. He probably was in a position such as I am now. Mr. SPECTER. Did he fall to the rear or to the side or how? Mr. GREER. In my opinion, he fell toward Mrs. Connally which would be to his left or to his side. Mr. SPECTER. Did he fall then on his left shoulder and arm or in some other way? Mr. GREER. He appeared to me to be falling on his left shoulder when I glanced. He had only started to move that way whenever he--when I saw him. Mr. SPECTER. Did you step on the accelerator before, simultaneously or after Mr. Kellerman instructed you to accelerate? Mr. GREER. It was about simultaneously. Mr. SPECTER. So that it was your reaction to accelerate prior to the time-- Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. Mr. SPECTER. You had gotten that instruction? Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; it was my reaction that caused me to accelerate. Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect whether you accelerated before or at the same time or after the third shot? Mr. GREER. I couldn't really say. Just as soon as I turned my head back from the second shot, right away I accelerated right then. It was a matter of my reflexes to the accelerator. Mr. SPECTER. Was it at about that time that you heard the third shot? Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; just as soon as I turned my head. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mr. KELLERMAN. Correct; yes, sir. Governor Connally by that time is lying flat backwards into her lap-- Mrs. Connally--and she was lying flat over him. Mr. SPECTER. Who was lying flat over him? Mr. KELLERMAN. Mrs. Connally was lying flat over the Governor Mr. SPECTER. Now, in your prior testimony you described a flurry of shells into the car. How many shots did you hear after the first noise which you described as sounding like a firecracker? Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, these shells came in all together. Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to say how many you heard? Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to say two, and it was like a double bang--bang, bang. Mr. SPECTER. You mean now two shots in addition to the first noise? Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; yes, sir; at least. Mr. KELLERMAN. Our car accelerated immediately on the time-at the time--this flurry of shots came into it. Mr. SPECTER. Would you say the acceleration-- Mr. KELLERMAN. Between the second and third shot. Senator COOPER. When you were speaking of a flurry of shots, was there a longer interval between the first shot and the second shot as compared to the interval between the second shot and the third shot? Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. Mr. KELLERMAN. Fine. As we arrived at the hospital I immediately got out of the car. Our followup car is in back of us, as you will recall. I yelled to the agents, "Get in"--"Go get us two stretchers on wheels." In the meantime in a matter of seconds--I don't know how they got out so fast--I turned right around to the back door and opened it. By this time Mrs. Connally had raised up, and the Governor is lying in her lap, face up. His eyes are open and he is looking at me, and I am fairly sure he is alive. By this time I noticed the two stretchers coming out of the emergency room, and I said to the Governor, I said, "Governor, don't worry; everything is going to be all right." And he nodded his head, which I was fairly convinced that that man was alive. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Mr. HILL. I heard Special Agent Kellerman say on the radio, "To the nearest hospital, quick." Mr. SPECTER. Any other comment? Mr. HILL. He said, "We have been hit." Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. Good. There was enough for me to verify that the man was hit. So, in the same motion I come right back and grabbed the speaker and said to the driver, "Let's get out of here; we are hit," and grabbed the mike and I said, "Lawson, this is Kellerman,"--this is Lawson, who is in the front car. "We are hit; get us to the hospital immediately." Now, in the seconds that I talked just now, a flurry of shells come into the car. I then looked back and this time Mr. Hill, who was riding on the left front bumper of our followup car, was on the back trunk of that car; the President was sideways down into. the back seat. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mr. ALTGENS - This would put me at approximately this area here, which would be about 15 feet from me at the time he was shot in the head--about 15 feet from the car on the west side of the car--on the side that Mrs. Kennedy was riding in the car. Mr. ALTGENS - Yes. What made me almost certain that the shot came from behind was because at the time I was looking at the President, just as he was struck, it caused him to move a bit forward. He seemed as if at the time----well, he was in a position-- sort of immobile. He wasn't upright. He was at an angle but when it hit him, it seemed to have just lodged--it seemed as if he were hung up on a seat button or something like that. It knocked him just enough forward that he came right on down. There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing, so much so that it indicated to me that the shot came out of the left side of his head. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0449a.htm Guess that we can all go home now, or, we could wait until Mr. Speer determines how a bullet which is fired on a downward angle of aproximately 11 degrees downward could strike JFK in the edge of the hairline in the neck, tunnel through the fleshy portion of the rear of the neck, and thus strike in the vicinity of the EOP.* (exactly what position JFK's head would have had to be in.) And lastly, one would be quite negligent to omit: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mr. SPECTER - Now, on one detail on your report, Dr. Humes, on page 4, on the third line down, you note that there is a lacerated wound measuring 15 by 6 cm. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Which, someone should correct Specter's claim to the correct 15mm vertically elongated wound of entry into the EOP vicinity of the skull of JFK, and one should really take the time to determine the angle of impact necessary to create a vertically elongated entrance wound of 15mm in length. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- and, one should truely pay close attention to the "Ragged/Slanting" arrow as drawn by Dr. Boswell. http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0036a.htm As, what appears to be slanting leftwards and "UP", could easily be slanting downwards with the head bent forward and turned to the right. and, one would truly want to further examine the second bullet hole through the coat of JFK which struck just at the edge of the coat collar, just prior to exiting the coat and striking JFK in the edge of the hairline of the neck. Commander HUMES - Yes, sir. This exhibit is a grey suit coat stated to have been worn by the President on the day of his death. Situated to the right of the midline high in the back portion of the coat is a defect, one margin of which is semicircular. Situated above it just below the collar is an additional defect. It is our opinion that the lower of these defects corresponds essentially with the point of entrance of the missile at Point C on Exhibit 385. Mr. SPECTER - How about the upper one of the collar you have described, does that go all the way through? Commander HUMES - Yes, sir; it goes all the way through. It is not--wait a minute, excuse me it is not so clearly a puncture wound as the one below. Mr. SPECTER - Does the upper one go all the way through in the same course? Commander HUMES - No. Mr. SPECTER - Through the inner side as it went through the outer side? Commander HUMES - No, in an irregular fashion. Mr. KELLERMAN. Entry into this man's head was right below that wound, right here. Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the bottom of the hairline immediately to the right of the ear about the lower third of the ear? Mr. KELLERMAN. Right. But it was in the hairline, sir. Mr. SPECTER. In his hairline? Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. Mr. SPECTER. Near the end of his hairline? Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Boswell---AARB Q. I'd like you to note on the right diagram; on the head there appears to be a circle with an arrow pointing up and to the left. Do you see that? A. Yes. Q. Are you the person who made that mark? A. Yes. Q. Could you tell me what that mark signifies? A. Well, at this late date, I have to assume. I remember that there is a--in the scalp there was a tunneling of the wound through the skin and subcutaneous tissue, and I think that is the direction that the tunnel went. Q. Does that mean that there was a tunnel between the entrance point and the point where the bullet entered into the skull? A. Yes. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/hsca..._Vol7_0128b.htm Dr. Petty: Then this is the entrance wound? The one down by the margin of the hair in the back? Dr. Humes: Yes, sir! Note: Dr. Boswell was also present during this questioning. http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/hsca..._Vol7_0131a.htm Dr. Humes: No, that was a wound, and the wound of the skull preciselfy coincided with it. Dr. Davis: Now it was a tunnel-- Dr. Boswell: Yeah, it's longer than it is wide, and tunneled along and actually under here, and then at the actual bone defect was above the--- http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/hsca..._Vol7_0131b.htm Dr. Petty: So, on photograph No. 42 then, down right at the hairline, down right at almost in the midline, is the inshoot wound. Dr. Petty: And you say, Dr. Boswell, that the bullet entered the skin and that the wound in the skull was a little above that. Dr. Boswell: Right. Dr. Petty: Because the bullet had tunneled a little under the skin and that the wound in the skull was a little above that. http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/hsca..._Vol7_0133a.htm Dr. Petty: May I make a coment on what you just said, Dr. Davis. The problem, as I see it, is that this may be in fact a tunnelling situation, with the bullet scooting along the skull here or somewhere, and not entering the skull down below. Is that what you'r saying now. Dr. Davis. What I'm saying--what I'm inferring: in the absence of photographs and specific measurements, we could only conjecture as to how long the tunneling is, but I would envision this as a tunneling first and then entry into the skull. Dr. Loquvam: Gentlemen, may I say something? Dr. Davis: Yes Dr. Loquvam. I don't think this discussion belongs in the record. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Of the many things in life which are physically impossible, for a medium to high velocity 6.5mm Carcano bullet to be fired on a downward angle of approximately 11 degrees downward, to strike in the edge of the hairline, only to immediately turn upwards and tunnel through the soft flesh of the neck to impact in the EOP vicinity of the skull, happens to be one of them. That is of course with the human body in the normal upright position! Sometimes, "tunnelling up" is really "tunnelling down". Dependent upon how one holds their head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Richards Posted November 26, 2006 Share Posted November 26, 2006 Dan Marvin saw it in CIA training, wrote in Fourth Decade, excellent description (Jack White) FWIW, James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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