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Where are the films and photos?


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I've been somewhat amazed at the seeming difficultly of locating anything resembling an easily accessible comprehensive repository of the known photos and films from the Kennedy assassination.

I have no idea what role copyright ownership, and/or bandwith and logistical hurdles might play in this scattering and dearth, but it seems to me that the collection and effective presentation of as much as possible of the visual record would be of inestimable value and use to researchers and posterity. If I had the access, means, and time I certainly would be embarking on such a worthwhile project.

I merely happened across this reference from the Wikipedia page on the Zapruder film while briefly browsing the forum this morning and trying to find out what the "Bell" film was:

  • There are at least eleven known films and photographs in Dealey Plaza during the assassination by these amateurs with cameras: F. Mark Bell, Charles Bronson (not the actor with the same name), Robert J. E. Hughes, John Martin, Charles Mentesana, Patsy Paschall, Elsie Dorman, Tina Towner, Marie Muchmore, and Orville Nix, along with an unidentified "Babushka Lady". Nix's, Muchmore's, and Bronson's films include the fatal head shot, and the films of Bronson and Hughes show the open 6th-floor window of the Texas School Book Depository.

That alone was staggering information for me, and I have yet to find any place to view just the Bell film.

In the many threads concerning still photos, the images posted in the forum itself are often of little use for any kind of actual analysis, since they are usually low resolution jpegs, often cropped, and already, in many cases, processed in some way.

Of course another major problem is that there is no standardized naming or identifying convention for the various images, so one often has no ideal what even to search for.

I'm sure I don't need to belabor this further, so I'll only say that it would be a vastly worthwhile project to assemble the best (closest to original) still images that can be collected, get them scanned at least at actual size and 300 dpi resolution, and make them available somewhere, in some format with as little in the way of artifacts as possible (meaning no jpegs). And for the films, of course, to make as many available as possible in a widely-available digital format for viewing or downloading for research and educational purposes.

I do realize there are copyright issues as well as bandwidth and other technical issues in a project of such scope, but I also believe people could be found who might help make such arrangements as a charitable contribution. If there were enough interest, perhaps even a non-profit organization could be set up to be a repository and trustee of such works for educational purposes. Lord knows it would be a welcome counterpoint to the profiteers and vested interests. It also would tend to show those in their appropriate light through the listings of images made available vs. those withheld.

This is not a fully formed plan. It's merely an observation of a much needed resource that seems resoundingly absent, with a hope to get that corrected at some point in time. As I've mentioned, I don't personally have the means, but if others are interested, I'm happy to help in any way I'm able, and I'd like to hear other thoughts about it.

Ashton Gray

Edited by Ashton Gray
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http://www.jfk-online.com/films.html

has a number of films including Bell

many photos are here

http://jfkmurderphotos.bravehost.com/photos.html

listing here

http://www.jfk-info.com/photos1.htm

(for those who don't have such things:: a combination of the right viewer and screencap utility, plus something to extract frames is recommended.

I find iview_32.exe, mwsnap, xnview useful (all freeware downloads). Reliable manipulation and analysis with Image Analyzer, again a great little freware with very useful plugins.)

Edited by John Dolva
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'Masta don' wanna show his cards and 'iz alwaz pullin' slight 'o hand 2) entropy, poverty and minor turf battles within the research community. I appoint you director of the JFK film and photo repository. There are some websites that contain some of the materials, but as you point out the maximum resolution, standard format and naming and other factors are far from optimal.

One of you guys can buy a copy of Groden's DVD which has the assassination films on it, then you can post every frame from every film to a web page or forum if you want to and people then can save the images for free. Or those same people who have no money can try and get a copy of the same DVD off of ebay which has sold for as little $10.00 on occassions.

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'Ashton Gray' wrote:

I've been somewhat amazed at the seeming difficultly of locating anything resembling an easily accessible comprehensive repository of the known photos and films from the Kennedy assassination.

I have no idea what role copyright ownership, and/or bandwith and logistical hurdles might play in this scattering and dearth, but it seems to me that the collection and effective presentation of as much as possible of the visual record would be of inestimable value and use to researchers and posterity. If I had the access, means, and time I certainly would be embarking on such a worthwhile project.

I merely happened across this reference from the Wikipedia page on the Zapruder film while briefly browsing the forum this morning and trying to find out what the "Bell" film was:

  • There are at least eleven known films and photographs in Dealey Plaza during the assassination by these amateurs with cameras: F. Mark Bell, Charles Bronson (not the actor with the same name), Robert J. E. Hughes, John Martin, Charles Mentesana, Patsy Paschall, Elsie Dorman, Tina Towner, Marie Muchmore, and Orville Nix, along with an unidentified "Babushka Lady". Nix's, Muchmore's, and Bronson's films include the fatal head shot, and the films of Bronson and Hughes show the open 6th-floor window of the Texas School Book Depository.

That alone was staggering information for me, and I have yet to find any place to view just the Bell film.

In the many threads concerning still photos, the images posted in the forum itself are often of little use for any kind of actual analysis, since they are usually low resolution jpegs, often cropped, and already, in many cases, processed in some way.

Of course another major problem is that there is no standardized naming or identifying convention for the various images, so one often has no ideal what even to search for.

I'm sure I don't need to belabor this further, so I'll only say that it would be a vastly worthwhile project to assemble the best (closest to original) still images that can be collected, get them scanned at least at actual size and 300 dpi resolution, and make them available somewhere, in some format with as little in the way of artifacts as possible (meaning no jpegs). And for the films, of course, to make as many available as possible in a widely-available digital format for viewing or downloading for research and educational purposes.

I do realize there are copyright issues as well as bandwidth and other technical issues in a project of such scope, but I also believe people could be found who might help make such arrangements as a charitable contribution. If there were enough interest, perhaps even a non-profit organization could be set up to be a repository and trustee of such works for educational purposes. Lord knows it would be a welcome counterpoint to the profiteers and vested interests. It also would tend to show those in their appropriate light through the listings of images made available vs. those withheld.

This is not a fully formed plan. It's merely an observation of a much needed resource that seems resoundingly absent, with a hope to get that corrected at some point in time. As I've mentioned, I don't personally have the means, but if others are interested, I'm happy to help in any way I'm able, and I'd like to hear other thoughts about it.

Ashton Gray

***********

Ashton,

As a starting point, some found the Computers and Automation magazine, May 1970 issue (vol.10 no.5) pages 20 thru 60, authored by Richard E. Sprague [not to be confused with other Sprague], very helpful.

(1970 IS the correct year)

Title of the article is:

The Assassination of President John F. Kennedy

The Application of Computers to the Photographic Evidence

On page 52 he compiled a list of every known photographer whose photos/film covered the assassination (Dealey Plaza, Parkland, etc.) The article includes (double truck pg 48-49) a northern Dealey Plaza spatial chart/plat positioning major camera/photographer positions along Houston, Main and Elm St's. Page 51 is a schematic timing flow chart of major DP film/photos (how they overlap with each other)

The 6th Floor Museum has an extensive collection of Dallas-JFK Assassination related, 1963-64 images (film, photo and some videotape) and of course Lone Nutter written works (both fact and fiction - imho).

NARA of course is where the *alledged* Zapruder in-camera original is housed along with the remains of original Zaprduer-Jamieson/KODAK prints (one intact another in pieces with frames missing- the 3rd of course is at the 6th floor museum, they obtained that 1st generation film print via "donation" from the Zapruder trust.

As for film copyright issues: Attorney Mike Pincher wrote a extensive brief (including case law) regarding the Zapruder film, very interesting reading...

Simple advice: trust the provenance of no DP film/photo you see OR receive over the net, if you can't hold it in your own hand, red flags should go up! Especially from the known preservers of Dealey Plazas' historic photographic record... (especially the simplistic .gif animations so prevelant on this and a few other boards)

In my estimation there are two JFK related photo researchers you can trust for *accurate* JFK related information - Jack White and yes, Gary Mack... Gary Mack has a on-camera [and other media] public personna to maintain, you'll get the straight scoop as to what the 6th floor museum has on hand. Whether you get to see it or not is another story... To the best of my knowledge: only SBTheory proponents get access to the 6th floor research data and "original photos" (whatever the hell that suppose to mean)... note: Gary does well on-camera, I can't say the same in how he deals with those being interviewed from behind the camera

Jack has been there and done that for years, listened to every half-baked excuse as to why this and that. He makes mistakes, he owns up to them, IF he's proven wrong. His photo-database should NOT be overlooked, he's an excellent resource...

Edited by David G. Healy
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'Masta don' wanna show his cards and 'iz alwaz pullin' slight 'o hand 2) entropy, poverty and minor turf battles within the research community. I appoint you director of the JFK film and photo repository. There are some websites that contain some of the materials, but as you point out the maximum resolution, standard format and naming and other factors are far from optimal.

One of you guys can buy a copy of Groden's DVD which has the assassination films on it, then you can post every frame from every film to a web page or forum if you want to and people then can save the images for free. Or those same people who have no money can try and get a copy of the same DVD off of ebay which has sold for as little $10.00 on occassions.

roflmfao! Is there disinfospecialist in the house?

David Lifton's chapter in The Great Zapruder Film Hoax, in part on Robert Groden, is quite revealing. As for internet, DVD imagery.... I bet half these loons out here don't know gamma settings for PC-Windoz/Apple computer monitors --

they're gonna tell us all about contrast in JFK related images though.... LMAO

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roflmfao! Is there disinfospecialist in the house?

There is now! You tell people not to trust anything they cannot hold in their hand, but who amongst those, including yourself, would actually know what they are looking at? Your statements are for the ignorant that cannot see the lack of logic and sound reasoning in the things you say. Thank goodness that their numbers are few.

David Lifton's chapter in The Great Zapruder Film Hoax, in part on Robert Groden, is quite revealing. As for internet, DVD imagery.... I bet half these loons out here don't know gamma settings for PC-Windoz/Apple computer monitors --

Lifton, while I admired his investigation into the subject so many years ago, is another one who couldn't see that Moorman's camera was above the cycles in the #5 Polaroid that Mary had taken. You will note that in the 'Hoax' book that he doesn't offerr peer review by experts who would know the subject better than he. Again, you play on peoples paranoi and lack of knowledge of the subject.

Do I need to post more of the symptoms of schizophrenia to see how many apply to your postings?

Distrust or Suspiciousness

Poor Memory or Learning Ability

Overly Dependent Behavior

Reckless or Impulsive Behavior

Obsessive Thinking or Compulsive Rituals

... and it is said that people with this ailment are not aware that they have it.

Bill Miller

Edited by Bill Miller
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'Bill Miller' dronned:

roflmfao! Is there disinfospecialist in the house?

There is now! You tell people not to trust anything they cannot hold in their hand, but who amongst those, including yourself, would actually know what they are looking at? Your statements are for the ignorant that cannot see the lack of logic and sound reasoning in the things you say. Thank goodness that their numbers are few.

dgh: of course there are, been so for a year or two, right after you got here, in fact -- you go from forum to forum post 10,000 or so posts then wander off to the next [with the exception of Rich's forum - he got your game immediately, you were gone quick]. Strangely enough though, you never appear on the big internet newsgroups discussing the evidence, -- I don't make conclusive statements about the DP photographic record, I've never analyzed the in-camera *original* DPfilms, nor have you - just more whistling out your ass, yes?

David Lifton's chapter in The Great Zapruder Film Hoax, in part on Robert Groden, is quite revealing. As for internet, DVD imagery.... I bet half these loons out here don't know gamma settings for PC-Windoz/Apple computer monitors --

Lifton, while I admired his investigation into the subject so many years ago, is another one who couldn't see that Moorman's camera was above the cycles in the #5 Polaroid that Mary had taken. You will note that in the 'Hoax' book that he doesn't offerr peer review by experts who would know the subject better than he. Again, you play on peoples paranoi and lack of knowledge of the subject.

dgh: was that before or after Lifton told you to get lost? Peer review by who? YOU? A guy who appeared out of no where, just another pidly voice yelling NO film alteration, cause Gary or tink told me.....? ROFLMFAO

Do I need to post more of the symptoms of schizophrenia to see how many apply to your postings?

dgh: when it comes to the DP photos/film of JFK assassination its called *caution*, beefstick -- EXTREME Caution, especially homebrewed .gif animations from questionable, unsourced material - ontop of questionable, unsourced, unknownledgable posters... need I continue?

Distrust or Suspiciousness

Poor Memory or Learning Ability

Overly Dependent Behavior

Reckless or Impulsive Behavior

Obsessive Thinking or Compulsive Rituals

... and it is said that people with this ailment are not aware that they have it.

dgh: tell you what champ, I'd gladly sit down and speak to a Shrink on-camera, you do the same? We'll do it together, eh?

Get that computer screen *gamma* Apple OS/PC-Windoz issue straightend out, yet? Your going to need to know, Bill. Check with Lamson, he knows (I hope)... Heretell we're getting close to a new and improved Zavada report... get to that email.... :)

Bill Miller

Edited by David G. Healy
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dgh: of course there are, been so for a year or two, right after you got here, in fact -- you go from forum to forum post 10,000 or so posts then wander off to the next [with the exception of Rich's forum - he got your game immediately, you were gone quick]. Strangely enough though, you never appear on the big internet newsgroups discussing the evidence, -- I don't make conclusive statements about the DP photographic record, I've never analyzed the in-camera *original* DPfilms, nor have you - just more whistling out your ass, yes?

If you mean by a couple of years as being "quick", then you are correct about the time span I was on the looney forum. If you mean by the word "quick" as the amount of time I was allowed to be a member of that forum after my challenging Jack White over his poorly thought-out observations concerning 7' tall Toni Foster, Moorman being in the street, parking meters taller than people, girls turning into boys, Zapruder and Sitzman waltzing on the pedestal, and etc., then you are also correct.

dgh: was that before or after Lifton told you to get lost?

David Lifton has never told me to get lost. He asked for an explanation several times by way of email and we conversed back and forth. David Lifton has never shown the lack of having class concerning JFK's assassination like you do.

Get that computer screen *gamma* Apple OS/PC-Windoz issue straightend out, yet? Your going to need to know, Bill. Check with Lamson, he knows (I hope)... Heretell we're getting close to a new and improved Zavada report... get to that email.... :) [/b]

Your message is so disjointed that I have not a clue as to what you are talking about, which brings me to one of the symptoms of Schizophrenia that you often display - Disorganized or Bizarre Behavior .

Bill Miller

Edited by Bill Miller
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Thanks for the links, John.

The films link is great. Then again, the size and resolution are lamentable, which of course cycles back to the bandwidth limitations, and 'round and 'round she goes.

Speaking of bandwidth, the bravehost site gives just such an error page.

And I had found the page of listings—which actually is exactly what prompted this entire topic.

And 'round and 'round she goes...

Ashton

P.S. A comment about turning to butter came to mind, but since one King Twit already tried to sabotage this thread with amateur remote-viewing psychoanalysis, all we need is an excuse for some King Twit wannabe to launch into a racism diatribe.

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Thanks for the links, John.

The films link is great. Then again, the size and resolution are lamentable, which of course cycles back to the bandwidth limitations, and 'round and 'round she goes.

Speaking of bandwidth, the bravehost site gives just such an error page.

And I had found the page of listings—which actually is exactly what prompted this entire topic.

And 'round and 'round she goes...

Ashton

P.S. A comment about turning to butter came to mind, but since one King Twit already tried to sabotage this thread with amateur remote-viewing psychoanalysis, all we need is an excuse for some King Twit wannabe to launch into a racism diatribe.

Ashton..."Miller" is irrelevant. He spends 24/7 trolling and debunking.

Relevant researchers have no apparent motive to do that. He never

posts original research...ONLY debunking. He cannot prove that he

is the "original Miller". He cannot prove that he is not "Larry Peters".

He specializes in ad hominem attacks while posing as an authority.

Someday somebody will investigate his background and find who

he really is.

Attached is a study somebody (I don't remember) did exposing

"Miller/Peters".

Jack

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I met Bill Miller in Florida several years before this Forum existed. In my opinion, Bill is the fellow on the right in that picture, and his current Forum picture looks just like the Bill Miller that I met.

I found Bill to be a likeable, sincere and well informed guy. We talked about a lot of things outside the realm of President Kennedy's murder.

I've told Bill before that I thought he spent too much of his time on the subject of Jack White. I don't see eye to eye with him on everything, although I do respect his opinions and the efforts he has taken to study the evidence in his areas of specialty.

Having said the above, I also have a lot of respect for Jack White, especially for the important work he did during the critical years when this case was still theoretically solvable.

Mike Hogan

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I found Bill to be a likeable, sincere and well informed guy.

Gee, I've heard the same kinds of opinions of Richard Helms and Ted Bundy.

Maybe some of you guys can form a "Bill Miller Admiration Society" and start a forum for it somewhere else with the free forum software that's available, and keep him coralled over there stroking and petting him (all posts must be in boldface only, of course), and maybe then there'd be some chance in hell of keeping a thread on topic in this forum.

Ashton Gray

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I found Bill to be a likeable, sincere and well informed guy.

Gee, I've heard the same kinds of opinions of Richard Helms and Ted Bundy.

Maybe some of you guys can form a "Bill Miller Admiration Society" and start a forum for it somewhere else with the free forum software that's available, and keep him coralled over there stroking and petting him (all posts must be in boldface only, of course), and maybe then there'd be some chance in hell of keeping a thread on topic in this forum.

Ashton Gray

Ashton, I have a feeling you could care less what I think, but I find your response lacking in the class I thought you had.

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