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THE THREE TRAMPS


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Are they: Chauncey Holt, Charles Harrelson, Charles Rogers or E. Howard Hunt and Frank Sturgis??? or did the LaFontaine's prove them to be well...Three tramps? Is the man walking by them Edward Lansdale? Were they marched through Dealey Plaza as just part of the smoke and mirrors to keep everyone guessing? Why were the arrest records held so long? I am interested in what our members think about it all. Thanks, skydog

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Depends on who you ask! :huh:

Ask Jack White and your answer is Sturgis and Hunt

Ask Gary Mack and your answer is Gedney, Abrams and Doyle

Ask me and your answer is Holt, Rogers and Harrelson.

Ask Woody and he just says nothing.

Smoke and mirrors, Smoke and mirrors.

Edited by dankbaar
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Hi Skydog,

Wim is right, ask different people and you will get different answers. I guess it's best to weight them all up and make your own decision. Personally, I feel the Doyle, Gedney and Abrams combination is the least likely.

FWIW, here is my two cents worth attached below. Having said that, Hunt for me is far from being 100%.

James

Edited by James Richards
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Do you have any info you could share about, Ernesto Duenas El Esposo De Socotto? He sure does look a lot like the so-called Frenchie Tramp.

Hi Dixie,

Ernesto is certainly a likely customer. He was very close with Eddie Bayo and in fact was a part of the Bayo-Pawley mission (Operation Tilt). He used the name Carlos Duenas Roca and several others from what I can gather.

I do have to say that background information on him is very sketchy. Apart from going on several missions with Bayo, things like when he came to the United States and his pre Castro history is unknown.

James

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Hello all and thanks for your input. It is just an odd part of the assassination and so many theories are out there. I think Chauncey Holt looks alot like the older tramp but only in the pictures of Chauncey when he is a bit older, not the ones of him in 63 or around that time era. Charles Harrelson mmm I dont quite think so. As for Charles Rogers no way but thats just me personally. I have to admit they make a case for them at Mr. Daankbar's site. Any opinions on the Edward Lansdale aspect? Thanks again.

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From a note RB Cutler sent to Dick Sprague, IV/3/77:

"In response to placing, specifically, guys in Dealey Plaza: Beckham - I don't know / Arcacha Smith in Houston / Seymour in Arizona either Tuscon or Phoenix / Gordon in New Orleans, his wife backs him up on this and being publicity minded GOrdon, Evergreeen Ad Agency in concious about this - Gary Shaw showed pictures of Frenchy around General Dynamics (Dallas?) everybody said that's Jerry Hoy."

Sprague's notes on Cutler's last observation:

"the name is Jerry HOY

that is Raoul

the guy that paid Ray - and the

"lead" tramp in Dealey Plaza."

?!?

- lee

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[Ernesto is certainly a likely customer. He was very close with Eddie Bayo and in fact was a part of the Bayo-Pawley mission (Operation Tilt). He used the name Carlos Duenas Roca and several others from what I can gather.

I do have to say that background information on him is very sketchy. Apart from going on several missions with Bayo, things like when he came to the United States and his pre Castro history is unknown.

James

Sir James,

Was Carlos Roca mentioned by Fabian Escalante as one of three Cubans that was "captured" in Guatemala?

Dave

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The arrested three tramps were first photographed marching by the depository at 2:15. That time comes from the two photographers who took the three tramps photos.

Another policeman testified to the WC or HS that there were several other tramps besides the three tramps that were also arrested on the stopped depository parking lot railroad train cars afterwards.

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Sir James,

Was Carlos Roca mentioned by Fabian Escalante as one of three Cubans that was "captured" in Guatemala?

Dave

Hi David,

Nice to see you here.

Yes indeed, Escalante did mention a Carlos Roca being connected with 3 other individuals named Andre Tartabul, Julio Garcia and Sergio Perez. These guys were supposedly killed inside Cuba during September of 1963. Tartabul was the only one killed and the other 2 escaped. Sounds a bit like the Bayo-Pawley mission doesn't it?

Escalante also says that Roca was supposedly seen in Miami in the company of Juan Manuel Salvat which is a good trick for a dead man. My failing memory also thinks there was a connection to Carlos Bringuier but I will have to hunt that one down

BTW, Julio Garcia definitely didn't perish inside Cuba in September of 1963 as he showed up in Bolivia with the CIA and that idiot Felix Rodriguez on the hunt for Che Guevara. I firmly believe this was a David Morales run operation which makes Garcia's resurrection very interesting. He was working with a character by the name of Gustavo Villoldo who was a BOP veteran and an early Intelligence contact of Bernardo De Torres. Villoldo was also close with a Cuban exile named Jose Perdomo who went through the Fort Benning training with the likes Of Rodriguez and Luis Posada Carriles. Perdomo was the doorman of the Dakota building when John Lennon was shot and was seen intensely conversing with Chapman before he went postal. What a web.

You regret asking now, don't you? :)

Below is a shot of Julio Garcia and Gustavo Villoldo. I am still of 2 minds whether or not Ernesto Duenas Y El Esposo De Socorro is the same Carlos Roca because as we know, Carlos was an in-house name commonly used by the black ops guys.

James

Edited by James Richards
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From jfkmurdersolved.com

"Both commented that they had gotten fresh clothes, showered, shaved and had a meal. They headed back to the railroad yard when they heard all the commotion and sirens and everything, and they asked what happened. They were told the president had been shot."

That's the Gedney, Abrams and Doyle story. How does that fit in with three tramps taken off a train?

I believe it's AJ Weberman who alleges 2 sets of 3 tramps. The 3 paraded through Dealey Plaza, and the three that were closer to the knoll. This seems to make a lot of sense, and lends validity to Chauncey Holt's story.

Still a lot of argument and disagreement on who the three in the photos were, but after seeing Gedney, Abrams and Doyle photos, it's a tough sell. Holt looks pretty good to me, and even Harrelson had to pause when looking at the picture of the tramp that resembled him.

Harrelson and Lawrence were sent in by Giancana - that's what's alleged by Giancana in DoubleCross? Third tramp would be Sturgis, a.k.a. Fiorini with this scenario.

The Plot - Mooney and the rest of the mob, the CIA boys

involved, the oil men financing the hit, and other right

wingers planned the hit and each contributed people, money,

guns, and action to share the action and insulate themselves

in several different paths from the actual followup. The

call went out for expert marksmen and each group provided

the following people as named by Giancana as the actual

gunmen. Mooney organization provided Ricard Cain, Chuck

Nicoletti, and Milwaukee Phil. Mooney stated that Cain was

the actual shooter in the alledged "Oswald sniper nest" and

Nicoletti was the other shooter on the opposite end of the

sixth floor of the depository. Milwaukee Phil was stationed

armed to keep others from interfering with the shooters.

Marcello provided Jack Lawrence and Charles Harrelson as

gunmen on the grassy knoll area. Trafficante provided two

cuban exile gunmen not named but one was rumored to be a

former Havana vice cop turned mobster and the other a

radical turned corrupt U.S. Customs official. Mooney also

alleged that the CIA added and provided several of their own

soldiers to the team using Roscoe White and J.D. Tippit as

the actual gunmen, along with Frank Fiorini and of course

Lee Harvey Oswald as the man they intended to frame as the

the gunmen. Mooney had sent Rosseli to New Orleans several

times to confer with Marcello, Banister, Ferrie, and they

had all agreed as early as March, April 63 that Oswald would

be the perfect patsy and they all proceeded to implicate him

more with actions directed to incriminate him later. The

top Cia people involved ran the show from a hotel close to

the site of the proposed hit and close to Ruby's club, ( the

Adolphus???) and they had walkie talkies and electronics of

the latest manufacture which they used to get the shooters

in place and undetected and track the location of Oswald

continuously for his later death in the street. In fact

according to Mooney J.D. Tippit and Roscoe White, both Cia

soldier and both on the dallas police force in the same

manner that Cain was put in the Chicago sheriff's office

were the ones detailed to kill Oswald on the street

immediately after the hit went off and since they were in

uniform, they could gun down the patsy in self defense and

stop the big investigation right there. This according to

Mooney was the only s****up of the whole operation. It

seems Tippit got cold feet or balked allowing Oswald to

escape the trap and White had been forced to kill Tippit

with probable help from Ruby or someone else. In any case

Oswald got captured alive at where he was told to go and

wait for contact and not on the street on the way there as

planned. Mooney said after the hit the CIA did their part

exceptionally well removing all traces of the conspiracy and

falsifying all the evidence or planting it including some

prepared evidence. It appears they had inside men at all

points both in the FBI and secret service and that the

cooperation of the Dallas authorities headed by Mayor Cabell

backed off all the local security and the top guys in govt

pulled off all they could from the military side. Mooney

said that "It was so loose in Dallas that day that a four

year old could have popped Kennedy." Mooney said to his

brother that what they did in Dallas they had done many

times before, just that this was the first coordinated

action inside the United States. "On 11-22-63 the USA had a

coup; its that simple. The govt was overthrown by a handful

of guys who did it so well, not one American ever knew it

happened." Mooney said.

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From a note RB Cutler sent to Dick Sprague, IV/3/77:

"In response to placing, specifically, guys in Dealey Plaza:  Beckham - I don't know / Arcacha Smith in Houston / Seymour in Arizona either Tuscon or Phoenix / Gordon in New Orleans, his wife backs him up on this and being publicity minded GOrdon, Evergreeen Ad Agency in concious about this - Gary Shaw showed pictures of Frenchy around General Dynamics (Dallas?)  everybody said that's Jerry Hoy."

Sprague's notes on Cutler's last observation:

"the name is Jerry HOY

that is Raoul

the guy that paid Ray - and the

"lead" tramp in Dealey Plaza."

?!?

- lee

Lee,

What is the source for this note from Cutler to Sprague and Sprague's comments? Thanks.

Edited by Ron Ecker
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Ron,

I bought a folder on DeMorenschildt.

http://amres.com/catalogs/PLKS.asp#Mjr1

"KE7264

John Kennedy/Kennedy Family: Folder of notes and manuscripts regarding the George deMorenschildt "suicide" much of the material between Dick Sprague and R. B. Cutler. About a dozen pieces, some stapled with attachments, some are copies and many are also originals. Lays out a scary scenerio about the information deMorenschildt had and why they feel he was killed. Some of this theory has not seen the light of day beyond this folder." $100

I reviewed the material, and I'd say I paid about $99.00 too much.

I don't think there'd be any copyright violation if I were to produce a scan of the document - what do you think?

- lee

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