Possible Knoll Weapon?

[Maarten Coumans]

Double Post.

Deleted

Edited September 25, 2006 by Maarten Coumans

[Guest John Gillespie]

[Funny you should mention the man who isn't there.

Years ago I had been adjusting the contrast/brightness and other filters when suddenly,

directly beside that tree, the faint negative image of a man kneeling had come into view.

What I found very interesting at the time was the similarity of this persons receding hairline

and the hairline of the "Oswald" in Mexico.

I have never mentioned this to anyone because I knew I would be jumped on from every

direction for "seeing" a man who wasn't there..

If you have good graphic files of the knoll try adjusting the contrast/brightness etc. until

you have a negative image and look right next to the tree.

I will try to find my picture and pull the image out that I am talking about.

I hope I manage to find the darn thing again. I have gigabytes of JFK related files on my

hard drives.

_____________________________

Chuck,

This may be to what you referred:

http://home.earthlink.net/~jkelin1/no_5.html

hairline and all.

Also, I have seen a reproduction from an AP photo published the very next day wherein there is a man crouching - and it is fairly clear in its depiction of head and body - right below this image and in front of the wall.

Regards,

JG

Edited September 25, 2006 by John Gillespie

[Shanet Clark]

Take a look at Betzner #3 again.

We see the Black Dog man, and another clear figure to his left, and the umbrella man.

All lined up so when JFK passes the STEMMONS sign and the umbrella he will be shot,

and of course the early medical witnesses said the back of his head was blown out.......

There is evidence of a sound-suppressed shot from the right front circa Z199.

Here's JFK at Z186 in Betzner #3.

[hit enlarge]

http://www.geocities.com/quaneeri4/Betzner_Large.jpg

He sat bolt upright, head turned to the right, right arm waving.

He was last in this posture at Z198.

[hit enlarge]

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z198.jpg

Phil Willis stated that he took his fifth photo in a startle response to a gun shot.

Thanks to John Hunt's correction of Willis #5 to the horizon line, we can

see that JFK was leaning noticably to his left at Z202.

The HSCA made the following analysis:

(quote on)

By Zapruder frame 207, when President Kennedy is seen going behind a sign

that obstructed Zapruder’s view, he appears to be reacting to a severe external

stimulus. This reaction is first indicated in the vicinity of frame 200 of the Zapruder

film. The President’s right hand freezes in the midst of a waving motion, followed

by a rapid leftward movement of his head. There is, therefore, photographic evidence

of a shot striking the President by this time.(HSCA Report and Vol. 6:17)

(quote off)

How does a mere 3 Z-frames (1/6th of a second) allow enough time for

both Phil Willis' startle response and the mechanical operation of the camera?

I'd argue that the shot that startled Phil Willis and made him take his fifth photo was

NOT the same shot that struck JFK in the throat from the right front circa Z199.

The throat shot was sound suppressed.

[Maarten Coumans]

Hi,

Just a thought:

Is a capture from Stone's JFK (corresponds to frame 194). In the next two or three frames of that same clip, I see a white dot on 2 places in the screen. One in the bushes, one on the back of the roadsign.

On the downside. Since I think a shot was fired from that location around frame 155 (that ends up in Kennedy's right shoulder). Leaves 2 seconds to reload and aim, by counting Zapruder frames.......

Maarten

[Kathleen Collins]

that one of the three men on the steps may have had a submachine gun.

This third guy - in a squatting position, using his knee to stabilize the weapon - would have been the shooter - and what I was continually looking for was silenced automatic weapons, connections to WerBell, possible covert weapons that would resemble cameras or be camoflauged with a camera mounted on top of the weapon, GSAPs, etc. I remember how I was laughed at when I was initially looking at some kind of silenced greasegun.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...ost&p=24546

Worth adding are the reports of automatic gunfire having been heard - beyond what you have posted - if memory serves James Richards posted those. I had other reasons for looking for an automatic - maybe it's worth running back over again. I guess it's only hearsay that someone in the plaza had an automatic cached in a briefcase? Can't recall where I read that.

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:NXOTE...t=clnk&cd=5

This guy is hiding in plain sight. His only cover is the shade of the live oak. Despite that fact, and the troubling problem of his lack of existence in Muchmore, Nix, Willis photos, etc. - I still like him for the one that delivered the shot to Kennedy's head.

It was also in Sam Pate's stuff where he suggested that Hargis believed that the shooter was located in the storm drain due to the sound of the shot that came from this direction. It was muffled, Sam said, unlike the others. Another reason I thought it may be possible was the sound heard by Sitzman on the alleged coke bottle smashing. One bottle on the wall. Thick glass. No evidence of broken glass on the walk. No recollection by any eye-witness of broken glass in the area. No record of any black couple in that location. I thought that perhaps she had heard the result of supressed fire and the tinkling of shells as they ejected and struck the concrete there.

That's a nice looking weapon. Maybe with a special scope it would even qualify for the account provided by the man in the press bus - can't find the reference and I know I posted it - where he has a man making his way up the steps, ducking as if he was being fired upon, carrying what looked like a camera - but not like any camera this news guy had ever seen before.

Still a lot of mystery concerning what transpired in this area - I see no reason to doubt Arnold's story myself either.

- lee

...or a weapon like that, but just behind the fence perhaps in hands of Badgeman....and maybe what Hoffman saw being moved in a 'shell game'...

Recently, someone posted a photo of the limo on the Stemmon's Freeway and in the background, on the roof of a building, stood a man with what looked like a big rifle like the one depicted on this thread.

I always thought BadgeMan was shooting with a submachine gun because the burst was so big. I showed the BadgeMan blowup to someone who wants to believe Oswald did it alone, etc. He said, "It's a guy lighting up his cigarette." I said, "What's he lighting it with -- a blow torch?"

Kathy

[Kathleen Collins]

[Funny you should mention the man who isn't there.

Years ago I had been adjusting the contrast/brightness and other filters when suddenly,

directly beside that tree, the faint negative image of a man kneeling had come into view.

What I found very interesting at the time was the similarity of this persons receding hairline

and the hairline of the "Oswald" in Mexico.

I have never mentioned this to anyone because I knew I would be jumped on from every

direction for "seeing" a man who wasn't there..

If you have good graphic files of the knoll try adjusting the contrast/brightness etc. until

you have a negative image and look right next to the tree.

I will try to find my picture and pull the image out that I am talking about.

I hope I manage to find the darn thing again. I have gigabytes of JFK related files on my

hard drives.

_____________________________

Chuck,

This may be to what you referred:

http://home.earthlink.net/~jkelin1/no_5.html

hairline and all.

Also, I have seen a reproduction from an AP photo published the very next day wherein there is a man crouching - and it is fairly clear in its depiction of head and body - right below this image and in front of the wall.

Regards,

JG

John, the link doesn't work for me.

Kathy

[Chris Newton]

I wanted to add a few new notes to this thread concerning my original post...

While perusing other threads I found an entry by GPH in which he also posts the details of the Delisle Carbine:

thread: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=5308&st=30&p=45577&hl=delisleentry45577

And most interesting, I found this quote in which Bernice Moore attempts to summarize the statement from assassination witness Carolyn Walther:

thread: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=16485

Mrs. Walther saw the man was holding a rifle in his hands; the barrel of the rifle was pointing downward and the man was looking toward Houston Street. Both his hands were extended across the window ledge. She described the man as having light brown or blond hair and wearing a white shirt. She described the rifle as having a short barrel and being possibly a machine gun. She noticed no other features of the rifle.

I have a couple of problems with Bernice's summary because when I went and looked at Mrs. Walther's actual statement she seemed to me to be quite an observant and astute witness and Bernice's summary doesn't actually describe what Mrs. Walther's stated.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=1140&relPageId=540

Just the gun part:

...The rifle had a short barrel and seemed large around the stock or end of the rifle. Her impression was that the gun was a machine gun. She noticed nothing like a telescopic sight or a leather strap or sling on the rifle. She says she knows nothing about guns or rifles of any type, but thought the rifle was different from any she had ever seen.

Before you scoff at the "machine gun" consider this: the business end of the Delisle looks remarkably like the business end of a browning .30 cal machine gun.

So here I go with another witness who claims to have seen a rifle (or gun) that has a large end and is wholly remarkable for some reason, albeit in a different location but I guess it's possible for different shooters to have the same weapons.

I also urge readers to go read Mrs. Walthers account of the shots she heard (her entire statement is a measly 2 pages). That part of her statement automatically disqualifies her from any chance she'd be called to testify before the WC.

Just my rumblings FWIW...

[Mike Rago]

The weapon in this mans right hand

Looks like this gun with the suppressor attached.

Here are the specs of that weapon. The length of the gun with the suppressor attached is 16 inches.

[Chris Newton]

Thanks Mike, there are a lot of MAC-10 and MAC-11 grandchildren that would fit that description but would they have been operational and in inventory in November 1963? The Deslisle had already been used by the OSS for assassinations so it meets both those conditions.

Also, my gut feeling is that there wasn't a "spray" of shots on full-auto from any location. I'm much more inclined to think that multiple shooters from several locations would be much more effective. The shooters at long range using scoped high powered (high velocity) rifles and the shooters at short range using accurate silenced weapons.

The Delisle is technically a carbine so has better accuracy and range than the example you posted.

What's Jack White say about the "man" you have posted?

punctuation edit CN

Edited September 27, 2012 by Chris Newton

[Thomas Graves]

The weapon in this mans right hand

[...]

If it's a gun, WHAT'S THE GUY AIMING IT AT in the Hugh Betzner photo you posted? Tosh Plumlee and Sergio on the hillside across the road?

--Tommy

Edited September 27, 2012 by Thomas Graves

[Chris Newton]

Thanks Jim,

.45 ACP using a modified M1911 Mag (seven rounds standard). The reported velocity was 850 fps.

This short clip gives a good overview:

http://videos.howstu...rbine-video.htm

Edited September 28, 2012 by Chris Newton

[Mike Rago]

This ITTC experiment tends to confirm that the shot from the knoll did not come from a high power rifle, implying the shot came from a handgun or a rifle firing a low velocity bullet.

Edited September 28, 2012 by Mike Rago

[Chris Newton]

Mike,

I've never heard any serious suggestion that the alleged shooter on the Knoll used a high powered rifle.

The alleged weapon that Oswald was to have used from the SBD was a carbine with a full jacketed round that had a velocity of about 2700 fps. (On a side note, the alleged choice of a Carcano by Oswald is simply ridiculous. There were several better candidates from Kliens in the very same advertisement - what about the Springfield '03 - a weapon LHO already was very familiar with and that Marine Scouts were still using as their sniper rifle?)

The Delisle was designed as a relatively close combat weapon with an maximum effective range of about 200 meters. The barrel was from a Thompson Sub Machine Gun but modified to allow the gases to escape. It had 1/3 the muzzle velocity of Carcano. The .45 ACP round is rather soft, highly frangible and intended to cause maximum damage. It's a bolt action weapon and had a relatively slow rate of fire, 20-30 rounds per minute. The rate of fire hardly matters though - I believe only 1 round was fired from the knoll, producing smoke, (which the first round from a well oiled weapon tends to do), but little noise (85 dbs +/-).

The clip that you posted is interesting but silly in it's execution and of little value. They even come to the conclusion that no one was on the knoll at all because the Carcano tested caused too much damage! I really don't have words to describe this postulation. Why not just test throwing grenades at the Limo or using a Bazooka?

[Thomas Graves]

I haven't written much about the assassination in the last twelve months but I've spent a lot of time thinking about the issues that have been gnawing at me.

One of these issues was brought up a long time ago on jfkresearch.com. Someone had suggested that one of the three men on the steps may have had a submachine gun. I discounted the thought almost immediately and I still don't believe any of those three men were shooters.

The submachine gun theory did touch another nerve with me. I really could not make it fit until just recently when a possible explanation hit my like a ton of bricks.

I have long thought that there wasn't necessarily one shot from the knoll. There is ample evidence suggesting that several rounds were fired. I'm not going to re-hash all the instances of missed shots but I'd suggest looking at Mike Griffith's excellent article (http://ourworld.cs.com/mikegriffith1/id139.htm) and John S. Craig's "The Guns of Dealey Plaza" (http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/11th_Issue/guns_dp.html).

Several witnesses have described what would seem to be an event other than a lone nut methodically working the action of a carbine and firing solo.

"Mr. SPECTER. Now, in your prior testimony you described a flurry of shells into the car. How many shots did you hear after the first noise which you described as sounding like a firecracker?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, these shells came in all together."(1)

Richard Randolph Carr testified at the Clay Shaw Trial. He was, in my opinion, one of the most qualified persons to ask about the gunshots in the plaza. He had been a Ranger in the Fifth Ranger Battalion at Anzio and one of thirteen men that survived, his entire battalion was, in his words, "annihilated". He stated the first shot he heard was "small arms", a pistol then three shots in succession. He also stated they were very close together, "they were fired from a semi-automatic or either...(cut off by an objection)". He also stated that they came from the knoll and at least one had "kicked up the grass".

As an aside, I noted this little tidbit in Mr. Carr's testimony:

"Q As a result of your conversations with the Federal Bureau of Investigation, What did you do?

A I done as I was instructed, I shut my mouth."(2)

Gordon Arnold stated the weapon he saw was like a shotgun. "And I was facing a large bore weapon, and the man was crying.” Conover asks, “What do you mean by a large bore weapon?” to which Arnold claims, “Like a shotgun…” “… but it looked… it was big enough for a truck to drive through.” (3) (I'm not going to debate Gordon Arnold's story - I have not formulated an opinion for lack of evidence -either way - but at this time, his is the only voice so far that has said anything about a strange weapon on the knoll.)

Many witnesses noted smoke coming from the knoll, some also noted the "smell of gunpowder". This smell and/or smoke does not occur down range. It occurs at the source and may drift and travel a short distance on the wind.

In the past I have closely studied all the reports on the acoustic evidence trying to determine what weapon type most closely matched the sounds and velocity calculations done and wether I agreed with the expert's conclusions. I still don't have an answer on this subject but I've been leaning towards a subsonic round. On a lark I decided that "badgeman" could have been firing a sabot through his shotgun. I've found sabot examples for a 12 gauge shotgun that could have been used in 1963. But this would be a slow round to load and could not account for the rapid fire noted by some witnesses I consider more reliable (i.e the combat vets).

Gordon Arnold's statement also bothered me, if he's telling the truth, why would a young man from Texas and in the Army not know if a weapon was a shotgun or not?

I also remember, although I don't know where from (someone please help me out with citations) that there had been some discussion that JFK's head wound resembled something caused more likely by a .45 than a jacketed .30x

There's also been some speculation that a .45 round had been picked up in the grass in the area I noted earlier.

So my problem was this I needed a weapon that is:

1) semi automatic or automatic

2) subsonic

3) "shotgun like"

4) possibly a .45

Well, that weapon is a Delisle .45 Carbine.

The Delisle was highly regarded as the best silenced weapon of WW2. It has been documented as having been in the OSS inventory despite only about 130 being produced. It is rumored to still be utilized by some SAS.

Here's a link to it's story: http://www.valkyriearms.com/delisle.pdf

When I first saw this picture I immediately thought of Arnold's comment "big enough to drive a truck through".

attachment

bumped

[Steve Thomas]

V

When a youth, I sometimes fired my dad's .22 rifle.

The pop of the firing was not very loud.

Jack

I've often wondered if the first shot, or couple of shots were from a .22 and that's why so many people interpreted them as firecrackers.

Steve Thomas