Photos of the limousine at Parkland

[Pat Speer]

A UPI telephoto caption for one of the first photos published after the assassination reads "Unidentified secret serviceman followed by Dallas Police Chief Jesse Curry carry clothing from President Kennedy's car." The blurry newspaper photo appears to depict just that. While there are a number of photos depicting the clean-up bucket now available online, I was unable to find a cllear version of this latter photo, taken after the top was back on the limousine? Is it available online or in any of Groden's books?

And why was Jesse Curry out by the limousine? "Securing" the crime scene? The whole thing has me puzzled a bit. Does anyone know if a secret serviceman, in fact, removed any clothing from the limousine? The "clothing" appears to me to be a box. If so, the box is probably holding the bloody rags used to clean up the limousine. Perhaps CE 399 and some of the missing bullet fragments are in there as well.

Is anyone familiar with this photo?

[Maarten Coumans]

A UPI telephoto caption for one of the first photos published after the assassination reads "Unidentified secret serviceman followed by Dallas Police Chief Jesse Curry carry clothing from President Kennedy's car." The blurry newspaper photo appears to depict just that. While there are a number of photos depicting the clean-up bucket now available online, I was unable to find a cllear version of this latter photo, taken after the top was back on the limousine? Is it available online or in any of Groden's books?

And why was Jesse Curry out by the limousine? "Securing" the crime scene? The whole thing has me puzzled a bit. Does anyone know if a secret serviceman, in fact, removed any clothing from the limousine? The "clothing" appears to me to be a box. If so, the box is probably holding the bloody rags used to clean up the limousine. Perhaps CE 399 and some of the missing bullet fragments are in there as well.

Is anyone familiar with this photo?

Hi Pat,

Could be this one?

Maarten

[Pat Speer]

A UPI telephoto caption for one of the first photos published after the assassination reads "Unidentified secret serviceman followed by Dallas Police Chief Jesse Curry carry clothing from President Kennedy's car." The blurry newspaper photo appears to depict just that. While there are a number of photos depicting the clean-up bucket now available online, I was unable to find a cllear version of this latter photo, taken after the top was back on the limousine? Is it available online or in any of Groden's books?

And why was Jesse Curry out by the limousine? "Securing" the crime scene? The whole thing has me puzzled a bit. Does anyone know if a secret serviceman, in fact, removed any clothing from the limousine? The "clothing" appears to me to be a box. If so, the box is probably holding the bloody rags used to clean up the limousine. Perhaps CE 399 and some of the missing bullet fragments are in there as well.

Is anyone familiar with this photo?

Hi Pat,

Could be this one?

Maarten

Thanks, Maarten, that's one of the "bucket" photos I referred to. There are a few taken by Cecil Stoughton in Pictures of the Pain and a few others on the Dallas News website. The picture I'm looking for was on the 11-22 front page of the Panama City Herald, among others, and was a UPI photo taken from the right of the position of the others. This photo, however, was taken after the top of the limo was fully back in place. It depicts a secret serviceman carrying a box away from the limo. I'm hoping a better version of the photo will reveal the contents of the box.

Edited September 19, 2006 by Pat Speer

[James Richards]

Pat,

I don't have the newspaper mentioned but is this the image in question? That looks like Jesse Curry in the center of frame.

James

[Pat Speer]

Pat,

I don't have the newspaper mentioned but is this the image in question? That looks like Jesse Curry in the center of frame.

James

Yes, James. Thanks. That's the image. In the crummy newspaper version it looked like the man in the light suit with the hand on top of his head had a box in his left hand. In this image it's clear there really were clothes in the arms of the first man. I'm guessing the Kennedys and Connallys had a change of clothes in the car.

The newspaper version, by the way, shows the entire back of the car.

Pat

Thanks again.

[Maarten Coumans]

Hi,

Sorry Pat, for misreading your post.

Thanks for starting the topic. This picture has my interest for a differend reason.

Could that be cooling fluid laying on the ground, in front of the people carrying the clothes.

As well I think I see a impact of a bullet. The trunk of the Security Car. To the right middle of the logo.

Would be a huge miss. Wonder if there are more clues (misses) to be found on/in the security car.

Maarten

[John Kennedy White]

Pat,

I don't have the newspaper mentioned but is this the image in question? That looks like Jesse Curry in the center of frame.

James

I don't mean to sound cynical...but at the cost of being same....is there not some 'irony' to have the top on the limo after the President has been shot....talk about closing the barn doors after the horses have been shot!.....

No kidding... they're more concerned about protecting the president's brain "on" the car, rather than when it was intact "in" the car...

[Maarten Coumans]

Hi Pat,

That fluid may have to do with a damaged radiator, as shown in the 2nd McIntire foto. Where the security car has left the plaza. and has a hole in the chrome grill.

I consider the trunk unopenable, after the deforming of a shot. Those guys walking up there with clothes, would have a real hard time with the trunk. Must have looked like "The three Stooges." Loadsa people watching, must have looked real funny. Wonder if there is any record on that? Or on the fluid on the ground.

I have a clip where I can see someone carry clothes into the Pres.Limo. at the airport. Put between driver and passenger. Connelly stands in the car welcoming Jackie, as John is playing hide-and-seek with security.

Or a nice editing.

Maarten

[J. William King]

Hi Pat,

That fluid may have to do with a damaged radiator, as shown in the 2nd McIntire foto. Where the security car has left the plaza. and has a hole in the chrome grill.

I consider the trunk unopenable, after the deforming of a shot. Those guys walking up there with clothes, would have a real hard time with the trunk. Must have looked like "The three Stooges." Loadsa people watching, must have looked real funny. Wonder if there is any record on that? Or on the fluid on the ground.

I have a clip where I can see someone carry clothes into the Pres.Limo. at the airport. Put between driver and passenger. Connelly stands in the car welcoming Jackie, as John is playing hide-and-seek with security.

Or a nice editing.

Maarten

Being an ambulance area, or basically a human loading dock, it would be very unusual if there *wasn't* oil and fluids on the ground. Also, do you have any other sources that say the trunk of the follow up car couldn't be opened? It really doesn't look like a bullet hit to me, but rather a reflection.

JWK

[Robin Unger]

I beleive that in another thread discussing this photo, it was mentioned that the SS Agent was also reportedly carrying Connally's stetson hat in his hand.

And that the blood stained hat was later found to be hanging on a coat hook in Currie's office.

If you look at the SS Agents hand area, you will notice a large "black mark" on the photo which covers the guys hand.

[Robin Unger]

What is this agent carrying into parkland.

It was suggested that it may be " Blood Plasma "

[Maarten Coumans]

Hi Pat,

That fluid may have to do with a damaged radiator, as shown in the 2nd McIntire foto. Where the security car has left the plaza. and has a hole in the chrome grill.

I consider the trunk unopenable, after the deforming of a shot. Those guys walking up there with clothes, would have a real hard time with the trunk. Must have looked like "The three Stooges." Loadsa people watching, must have looked real funny. Wonder if there is any record on that? Or on the fluid on the ground.

I have a clip where I can see someone carry clothes into the Pres.Limo. at the airport. Put between driver and passenger. Connelly stands in the car welcoming Jackie, as John is playing hide-and-seek with security.

Or a nice editing.

Maarten

Being an ambulance area, or basically a human loading dock, it would be very unusual if there *wasn't* oil and fluids on the ground. Also, do you have any other sources that say the trunk of the follow up car couldn't be opened? It really doesn't look like a bullet hit to me, but rather a reflection.

JWK

Hi,

The thing I see is that the trunk on the right side, where it meets the bumber, I see a bend.

This leads me to believe that the trunk is damaged. If there are reports (which I do not have, but looking for) describing a comic scene (something people remember) at the security car, it could/would confirm damaged trunk-> another bullet.

Same with the chrome grill on the front. The security car was tight behind Kennedy's limo, during Elm. The only space big enough for a bullet to hit that part, is on the corner, or some after 313. When the driver remembers where the gas pedal is.

Parkland: Of course there are oil-stains etc. But both pools of liquid seem to me too fresh. The sun had been shining for at least 2.5 hrs. And I assume the ambulance I see is in front of the Emergency entrance. So where the secudity car is parked in the picture is not a parking spot at all (blocking ambulance!). So the most of the spilling in the past had to be where the ambulance is now, and in parking spots/lots. Still too fresh IMO.

The other pool, you may wonder. At the corner there is a charming young (dark hair) lady looking down in a pool of liquid.

The Pres limo has been washed (hood is on), and the water spilled already nearly dried up.

May seem insignigicant. But from forensic point it is important. That shoots 2 more bullets through the WR.

Well, 25 more volumes to go.

That is what I think.

Maarten

[Guest Mark Valenti]

The thing I see is that the trunk on the right side, where it meets the bumber, I see a bend.

This leads me to believe that the trunk is damaged. If there are reports (which I do not have, but looking for) describing a comic scene (something people remember) at the security car, it could/would confirm damaged trunk-> another bullet.

Same with the chrome grill on the front. The security car was tight behind Kennedy's limo, during Elm. The only space big enough for a bullet to hit that part, is on the corner, or some after 313. When the driver remembers where the gas pedal is.

Parkland: Of course there are oil-stains etc. But both pools of liquid seem to me too fresh. The sun had been shining for at least 2.5 hrs. And I assume the ambulance I see is in front of the Emergency entrance. So where the secudity car is parked in the picture is not a parking spot at all (blocking ambulance!). So the most of the spilling in the past had to be where the ambulance is now, and in parking spots/lots. Still too fresh IMO.

The other pool, you may wonder. At the corner there is a charming young (dark hair) lady looking down in a pool of liquid.

The Pres limo has been washed (hood is on), and the water spilled already nearly dried up.

May seem insignigicant. But from forensic point it is important. That shoots 2 more bullets through the WR.

Well, 25 more volumes to go.

That is what I think.

Maarten

Maarten,

From a forensic point of view, details are vital. But looking at old grainy photographs do NOT give you forensic-quality information.

What you "think" you see, what things "seem" like, are not evidence, not even close. Yes, they can be helpful hunches but ultimately they have value as possibilities worth thinking about and little more.

You can't tell from looking at old photographs

A: If there really is liquid on the ground - it might just be a shadow

B: If the liquid is water or radiator cooling fluid or rain from earlier in the day

C: Which liquid may have dried and which is still on the ground

Nor can you tell if the limousine has been hit by a bullet in any particular place.

And under NO circumstances can you see a bullet zipping past JFK in the Z-film. It's impossible.

[Maarten Coumans]

Mr Valenti,

To go into your questions:

"A: If there really is liquid on the ground - it might just be a shadow"

Shadows do not reflect light. Absence of light.

"B: If the liquid is water or radiator cooling fluid or rain from earlier in the day"

Since the sun has been shining for at least 1.5 hrs (I said 2.5, sorry for that. Still, makes not much difference), so I can rule out "rain from earlier that day."

C: Which liquid may have dried and which is still on the ground.

?????

And:

"And under NO circumstances can you see a bullet zipping past JFK in the Z-film. It's impossible. "

That is fine by me. I think different. But that is a different threat, same person. Confused???

Finally:

"Nor can you tell if the limousine has been hit by a bullet in any particular place."

Seems clear to me.

Maarten

[Guest Mark Valenti]

"A: If there really is liquid on the ground - it might just be a shadow"

Shadows do not reflect light. Absence of light.

Not all of the dark areas are reflecting light. Some are, those are clearly liquid. Some aren't. You can't tell anything for certain from an unclear photo.

"B: If the liquid is water or radiator cooling fluid or rain from earlier in the day"

Since the sun has been shining for at least 1.5 hrs (I said 2.5, sorry for that. Still, makes not much difference), so I can rule out "rain from earlier that day."

It makes an enormous difference. You weren't there so you don't know if the rain was pooled in a deep hole in the pavement and therefore did not evaporate. You don't know if someone dropped a bottle of soda on the ground. You don't know if someone pissed on the parking lot. Therefore, assigning a source (radiator fluid) to the liquid is impossible. Totally, completely, one hundred percent impossible.

"And under NO circumstances can you see a bullet zipping past JFK in the Z-film. It's impossible. "

That is fine by me. I think different. But that is a different threat, same person. Confused???

You can "think different" for the next forty years, Maarten. But you really can't see the bullet in the Z-film, period. And yes, different thread, but exactly the same problem - finding things in pictures that aren't there. No confusion.

"Nor can you tell if the limousine has been hit by a bullet in any particular place."

Seems clear to me.

If that is a dent in the car, when did it get there? Is it a bullet strike? Or a pebble from the street? Did somebody throw a rock? Or if it is a dent, was it there earlier?