Discrepancies - Weapon in Alyea film Vs. WC et al

[Chris Newton]

Every time I watched the Tom Alyea clip I have I wonder if there isn't a lot more out there somewhere. For instance, the short MPEG I have is only about 56 seconds long and Alyea describes shooting a lot more film.

I do however know that Officer Mooney was present when the rifle was found because I took film of him at the scene. He is shown talking to another detective, but this was nearly an hour after the sniper's location was found at the window. I have no idea when he arrived. We ended up with more men than when we started. As they joined us during the search the latecomers would bring us the latest news of the president's condition. When Captain Fritz arrived 18 minutes after we started, he brought news that both Governor Connally and the president had been hit but by the time he left, the seriousness of their wounds was unknown. Fritz left the hospital almost immediately when he was notified that a search was underway in the Texas School Book Depository for the sniper. We in the search team had no phones, radios or TV sets. As I recall, we learned that the president was dead about the time we found the rifle. I don't know who brought us this word. Several officers arrived while we were waiting for Lt. Day. One of them was Roger Craig, who is responsible for giving much misinformation to the press. None of us were prepared to hear that the president's wound was a fatal one. We thought perhaps it was a minor thing or possibly a flesh wound. It was a stunning shock, and our attitude [towards] the rifle had suddenly changed. We stared at the small portion of the butt as it lay under the overhang boxes while we waited for Lt. Day to arrive and recover the weapon that killed our president. . . .

We finished combing the 6th floor, looking for the assassin or any other evidence. Finding nothing more at this time Captain Fritz ordered all of us to the elevator and we started searching the 7th floor and from there we went to the roof.

Nothing in the way of evidence was found so we retraced our search back down, floor by floor. Shortly after we arrived back on the 6th floor, Deputy Eugene Boone located the assassin's rifle almost completely hidden by some overhanging boxes near the stairwell. I filmed it as it was found. In my shot, the figure of Captain Fritz is standing within the enclosure next to the rifle. He knew then that the possibility of a fire fight with the sniper had greatly diminished. He dispatched one of his men to go down and call for the crime lab. About fifteen minutes later, Lt. Day and Studebaker arrived. Still pictures were taken of the positioning of the rifle, then Lt. Day slid it out from its hiding place and held it up for all of us to see. The world has seen my shot of this many times. Lt. Day immediately turned toward the window behind him and started dusting the weapon for fingerprints. Day was still within the enclosure formed by the surrounding boxes. I filmed him lifting prints from the rifle. He lifted them off with scotch tape and placed them on little white cards. When he had finished, he handed the rifle to Captain Fritz. Fritz pulled the bolt back and a live round ejected and landed on the boxes below. Fritz put the cartridge in his pocket. I did not see Fritz pick up anything other than the live round. . . .

Of course, later. he reversed himself on the chicken bones and stated they were there and McAdams spends a whole page on his site explaining why people's memories change. They must really need the rest of his statements to stand up. The problem is that he was filming - so we can see what he was describing - and I don't think I see what he describes in my little clip.

At about the 00:00:42 second mark (per quicktime in my clip) the weapon is removed from it's hiding place. I could be mistaken but I believe the bolt is open or "mostly" open. I can see into the chamber and I don't see a round. How then was Fritz able to eject one?

I also note that the scope resembles an old Weaver 330 or M73B1. The scope is very straight and does not taper at either end. It has a knob at the eyepiece end what seems to be a ring around it about 2-3" inches down from the eye piece. The scope in the National Archives (see the Life Photos) and the WC evidence tapers up at both ends(so the ends are larger).

Maybe someone with better photoshop skills than I can capture and zoom some of Alyea's frames?

Oh and while I'm calling out to shooters, Question: How many of you would head out on your mission with less than a full clip?

[Jack White]

Every time I watched the Tom Alyea clip I have I wonder if there isn't a lot more out there somewhere. For instance, the short MPEG I have is only about 56 seconds long and Alyea describes shooting a lot more film.

I do however know that Officer Mooney was present when the rifle was found because I took film of him at the scene. He is shown talking to another detective, but this was nearly an hour after the sniper's location was found at the window. I have no idea when he arrived. We ended up with more men than when we started. As they joined us during the search the latecomers would bring us the latest news of the president's condition. When Captain Fritz arrived 18 minutes after we started, he brought news that both Governor Connally and the president had been hit but by the time he left, the seriousness of their wounds was unknown. Fritz left the hospital almost immediately when he was notified that a search was underway in the Texas School Book Depository for the sniper. We in the search team had no phones, radios or TV sets. As I recall, we learned that the president was dead about the time we found the rifle. I don't know who brought us this word. Several officers arrived while we were waiting for Lt. Day. One of them was Roger Craig, who is responsible for giving much misinformation to the press. None of us were prepared to hear that the president's wound was a fatal one. We thought perhaps it was a minor thing or possibly a flesh wound. It was a stunning shock, and our attitude [towards] the rifle had suddenly changed. We stared at the small portion of the butt as it lay under the overhang boxes while we waited for Lt. Day to arrive and recover the weapon that killed our president. . . .

We finished combing the 6th floor, looking for the assassin or any other evidence. Finding nothing more at this time Captain Fritz ordered all of us to the elevator and we started searching the 7th floor and from there we went to the roof.

Nothing in the way of evidence was found so we retraced our search back down, floor by floor. Shortly after we arrived back on the 6th floor, Deputy Eugene Boone located the assassin's rifle almost completely hidden by some overhanging boxes near the stairwell. I filmed it as it was found. In my shot, the figure of Captain Fritz is standing within the enclosure next to the rifle. He knew then that the possibility of a fire fight with the sniper had greatly diminished. He dispatched one of his men to go down and call for the crime lab. About fifteen minutes later, Lt. Day and Studebaker arrived. Still pictures were taken of the positioning of the rifle, then Lt. Day slid it out from its hiding place and held it up for all of us to see. The world has seen my shot of this many times. Lt. Day immediately turned toward the window behind him and started dusting the weapon for fingerprints. Day was still within the enclosure formed by the surrounding boxes. I filmed him lifting prints from the rifle. He lifted them off with scotch tape and placed them on little white cards. When he had finished, he handed the rifle to Captain Fritz. Fritz pulled the bolt back and a live round ejected and landed on the boxes below. Fritz put the cartridge in his pocket. I did not see Fritz pick up anything other than the live round. . . .

Of course, later. he reversed himself on the chicken bones and stated they were there and McAdams spends a whole page on his site explaining why people's memories change. They must really need the rest of his statements to stand up. The problem is that he was filming - so we can see what he was describing - and I don't think I see what he describes in my little clip.

At about the 00:00:42 second mark (per quicktime in my clip) the weapon is removed from it's hiding place. I could be mistaken but I believe the bolt is open or "mostly" open. I can see into the chamber and I don't see a round. How then was Fritz able to eject one?

I also note that the scope resembles an old Weaver 330 or M73B1. The scope is very straight and does not taper at either end. It has a knob at the eyepiece end what seems to be a ring around it about 2-3" inches down from the eye piece. The scope in the National Archives (see the Life Photos) and the WC evidence tapers up at both ends(so the ends are larger).

Maybe someone with better photoshop skills than I can capture and zoom some of Alyea's frames?

Oh and while I'm calling out to shooters, Question: How many of you would head out on your mission with less than a full clip?

Chris...about ten years ago, I noticed the same thing. I did this

comparison in 1996.

Jack

[Chris Newton]

Chris...about ten years ago, I noticed the same thing. I did this

comparison in 1996.

Jack

Good catch Jack

Jack -thanks for the screen shot. I'll try and make one myself of the chamber showing no round inside. In your example you can clearly see that the bolt handle is in it's raised position and about 3 inches to the rear.

One other thing about the "Weaver" Scope (if that's what it is) is that the 330 didn't have crosshairs - making any shot exponentially more difficult - maybe that's one of the reasons the original scope had to go!

[Chris Newton]

An example of a weaver 330 :

http://cgi.ebay.com/Weaver-330-Rifle-Scope...1QQcmdZViewItem

(Link should be ok for a couple of days)

BTW Weaver Scopes are from Texas - El Paso.

[John Dolva]

sequence of frames showing the rifle lifted and turned. ...left to right

follow the pink dot and you see that that particular discrepancy is the bolt and its shadow

(image)

[Jack White]

Chris...about ten years ago, I noticed the same thing. I did this

comparison in 1996.

Jack

Good catch Jack

Jack -thanks for the screen shot. I'll try and make one myself of the chamber showing no round inside. In your example you can clearly see that the bolt handle is in it's raised position and about 3 inches to the rear.

One other thing about the "Weaver" Scope (if that's what it is) is that the 330 didn't have crosshairs - making any shot exponentially more difficult - maybe that's one of the reasons the original scope had to go!

The main things I noticed:

No knob on top of scope.

Different mounting bracket with no big X

Jack

[Chris Newton]

To open the chamber and pull back the bolt in a "bolt action rifle" the operator of the weapon pushes the bolt lever up and then pulls it back. In this "raised" position it sticks out from the rifle at an angle of about 90 degrees. To close the bolt and chamber a round the operator pushes the lever forward and then down, in this position the bolt lever is close to the rifle body and generally pointing in a downward position.

I've made two screen captures as the rifle is turned. I've colored the end of the bolt lever with a yellow dot and I have a yellow arrow pointed at the open chamber. The chamber is a black hole. There is no chambered round.

Thanks, John, for your captures. I can plainly tell looking at them that the shadows weren't playing tricks with me on the issue of the scope. I'm not sure I follow your "dot" though I think the bolt lever is farther back. Maybe I misunderstand what your displaying.

[John Dolva]

I suggest the dot is the round bit of the bolt.

(image)

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Every time I watched the Tom Alyea clip I have I wonder if there isn't a lot more out there somewhere. For instance, the short MPEG I have is only about 56 seconds long and Alyea describes shooting a lot more film.

I do however know that Officer Mooney was present when the rifle was found because I took film of him at the scene. He is shown talking to another detective, but this was nearly an hour after the sniper's location was found at the window. I have no idea when he arrived. We ended up with more men than when we started. As they joined us during the search the latecomers would bring us the latest news of the president's condition. When Captain Fritz arrived 18 minutes after we started, he brought news that both Governor Connally and the president had been hit but by the time he left, the seriousness of their wounds was unknown. Fritz left the hospital almost immediately when he was notified that a search was underway in the Texas School Book Depository for the sniper. We in the search team had no phones, radios or TV sets. As I recall, we learned that the president was dead about the time we found the rifle. I don't know who brought us this word. Several officers arrived while we were waiting for Lt. Day. One of them was Roger Craig, who is responsible for giving much misinformation to the press. None of us were prepared to hear that the president's wound was a fatal one. We thought perhaps it was a minor thing or possibly a flesh wound. It was a stunning shock, and our attitude [towards] the rifle had suddenly changed. We stared at the small portion of the butt as it lay under the overhang boxes while we waited for Lt. Day to arrive and recover the weapon that killed our president. . . .

We finished combing the 6th floor, looking for the assassin or any other evidence. Finding nothing more at this time Captain Fritz ordered all of us to the elevator and we started searching the 7th floor and from there we went to the roof.

Nothing in the way of evidence was found so we retraced our search back down, floor by floor. Shortly after we arrived back on the 6th floor, Deputy Eugene Boone located the assassin's rifle almost completely hidden by some overhanging boxes near the stairwell. I filmed it as it was found. In my shot, the figure of Captain Fritz is standing within the enclosure next to the rifle. He knew then that the possibility of a fire fight with the sniper had greatly diminished. He dispatched one of his men to go down and call for the crime lab. About fifteen minutes later, Lt. Day and Studebaker arrived. Still pictures were taken of the positioning of the rifle, then Lt. Day slid it out from its hiding place and held it up for all of us to see. The world has seen my shot of this many times. Lt. Day immediately turned toward the window behind him and started dusting the weapon for fingerprints. Day was still within the enclosure formed by the surrounding boxes. I filmed him lifting prints from the rifle. He lifted them off with scotch tape and placed them on little white cards. When he had finished, he handed the rifle to Captain Fritz. Fritz pulled the bolt back and a live round ejected and landed on the boxes below. Fritz put the cartridge in his pocket. I did not see Fritz pick up anything other than the live round. . . .

Of course, later. he reversed himself on the chicken bones and stated they were there and McAdams spends a whole page on his site explaining why people's memories change. They must really need the rest of his statements to stand up. The problem is that he was filming - so we can see what he was describing - and I don't think I see what he describes in my little clip.

At about the 00:00:42 second mark (per quicktime in my clip) the weapon is removed from it's hiding place. I could be mistaken but I believe the bolt is open or "mostly" open. I can see into the chamber and I don't see a round. How then was Fritz able to eject one?

I also note that the scope resembles an old Weaver 330 or M73B1. The scope is very straight and does not taper at either end. It has a knob at the eyepiece end what seems to be a ring around it about 2-3" inches down from the eye piece. The scope in the National Archives (see the Life Photos) and the WC evidence tapers up at both ends(so the ends are larger).

Maybe someone with better photoshop skills than I can capture and zoom some of Alyea's frames?

Oh and while I'm calling out to shooters, Question: How many of you would head out on your mission with less than a full clip?

Chris...about ten years ago, I noticed the same thing. I did this

comparison in 1996.

Jack

IF, and when on recognizes that they are looking at a "reverse image" photo and that that they are looking at the back side of the rifle and scope mount (non-bolt side), then they often tend to be less confused as regards the scope mounting bracket and the two attachment rings which hold the scope in place on the bracket.

Since I have yet to find a Carcano with a "left-side" bolt, my money is placed on the reverse image photography.

Which by the way was frequently done by the WC as well, and has and will continue to confuse those who pay little attention to the overall detail of the photo.

[Jack White]

Every time I watched the Tom Alyea clip I have I wonder if there isn't a lot more out there somewhere. For instance, the short MPEG I have is only about 56 seconds long and Alyea describes shooting a lot more film.

I do however know that Officer Mooney was present when the rifle was found because I took film of him at the scene. He is shown talking to another detective, but this was nearly an hour after the sniper's location was found at the window. I have no idea when he arrived. We ended up with more men than when we started. As they joined us during the search the latecomers would bring us the latest news of the president's condition. When Captain Fritz arrived 18 minutes after we started, he brought news that both Governor Connally and the president had been hit but by the time he left, the seriousness of their wounds was unknown. Fritz left the hospital almost immediately when he was notified that a search was underway in the Texas School Book Depository for the sniper. We in the search team had no phones, radios or TV sets. As I recall, we learned that the president was dead about the time we found the rifle. I don't know who brought us this word. Several officers arrived while we were waiting for Lt. Day. One of them was Roger Craig, who is responsible for giving much misinformation to the press. None of us were prepared to hear that the president's wound was a fatal one. We thought perhaps it was a minor thing or possibly a flesh wound. It was a stunning shock, and our attitude [towards] the rifle had suddenly changed. We stared at the small portion of the butt as it lay under the overhang boxes while we waited for Lt. Day to arrive and recover the weapon that killed our president. . . .

We finished combing the 6th floor, looking for the assassin or any other evidence. Finding nothing more at this time Captain Fritz ordered all of us to the elevator and we started searching the 7th floor and from there we went to the roof.

Nothing in the way of evidence was found so we retraced our search back down, floor by floor. Shortly after we arrived back on the 6th floor, Deputy Eugene Boone located the assassin's rifle almost completely hidden by some overhanging boxes near the stairwell. I filmed it as it was found. In my shot, the figure of Captain Fritz is standing within the enclosure next to the rifle. He knew then that the possibility of a fire fight with the sniper had greatly diminished. He dispatched one of his men to go down and call for the crime lab. About fifteen minutes later, Lt. Day and Studebaker arrived. Still pictures were taken of the positioning of the rifle, then Lt. Day slid it out from its hiding place and held it up for all of us to see. The world has seen my shot of this many times. Lt. Day immediately turned toward the window behind him and started dusting the weapon for fingerprints. Day was still within the enclosure formed by the surrounding boxes. I filmed him lifting prints from the rifle. He lifted them off with scotch tape and placed them on little white cards. When he had finished, he handed the rifle to Captain Fritz. Fritz pulled the bolt back and a live round ejected and landed on the boxes below. Fritz put the cartridge in his pocket. I did not see Fritz pick up anything other than the live round. . . .

Of course, later. he reversed himself on the chicken bones and stated they were there and McAdams spends a whole page on his site explaining why people's memories change. They must really need the rest of his statements to stand up. The problem is that he was filming - so we can see what he was describing - and I don't think I see what he describes in my little clip.

At about the 00:00:42 second mark (per quicktime in my clip) the weapon is removed from it's hiding place. I could be mistaken but I believe the bolt is open or "mostly" open. I can see into the chamber and I don't see a round. How then was Fritz able to eject one?

I also note that the scope resembles an old Weaver 330 or M73B1. The scope is very straight and does not taper at either end. It has a knob at the eyepiece end what seems to be a ring around it about 2-3" inches down from the eye piece. The scope in the National Archives (see the Life Photos) and the WC evidence tapers up at both ends(so the ends are larger).

Maybe someone with better photoshop skills than I can capture and zoom some of Alyea's frames?

Oh and while I'm calling out to shooters, Question: How many of you would head out on your mission with less than a full clip?

Chris...about ten years ago, I noticed the same thing. I did this

comparison in 1996.

Jack

IF, and when on recognizes that they are looking at a "reverse image" photo and that that they are looking at the back side of the rifle and scope mount (non-bolt side), then they often tend to be less confused as regards the scope mounting bracket and the two attachment rings which hold the scope in place on the bracket.

Since I have yet to find a Carcano with a "left-side" bolt, my money is placed on the reverse image photography.

Which by the way was frequently done by the WC as well, and has and will continue to confuse those who pay little attention to the overall detail of the photo.

The view is of the bolt knob side of the rifle. The bolt knob is seen in "opened" position.

However, the MISSING KNOB atop the scope would be seen from either side.

Jack

Edited October 4, 2006 by Jack White

[Thomas H. Purvis]

I suggest the dot is the round bit of the bolt.

(image)

Just had to make me go dig out the rifles again, huh John?

I "suggest" that you are absolutely correct!

What we see, which on initial viewing, appears as some portion of the scope mounting clip is in fact the operating handle of the bolt in the raised position with the ball of the operating handle directly over that portion of the scope mount where the scope intersects it.

Thus giving an illusion of some type of different mounting clamps.

Secondly, the shiny object to the rear (towards the stock) which falls in direct alignment with and just below the adjustment ring on the scope is in fact the bolt safety latch.

This safety rotates upwards with the bolt when the bolt operating handle is opened into the vertical position, and due to whatever the lighting associated with the photo, it makes it appear as a "blurred" ball which on initial look, appears like a bolt operating handle on the opposite side of the weapon.

Were the bolt actually opened and completely rearward, then the end of the rearward end of the bolt would be approximately 4 and 1/2 inches farther to the rear than the back side of the trigger guard and the opened bolt would be directly to the rear of the trigger guard.

Good call John!

[Thomas Graves]

I suggest the dot is the round bit of the bolt.

(image)

Just had to make me go dig out the rifles again, huh John?

I "suggest" that you are absolutely correct!

What we see, which on initial viewing, appears as some portion of the scope mounting clip is in fact the operating handle of the bolt in the raised position with the ball of the operating handle directly over that portion of the scope mount where the scope intersects it.

Thus giving an illusion of some type of different mounting clamps.

Secondly, the shiny object to the rear (towards the stock) which falls in direct alignment with and just below the adjustment ring on the scope is in fact the bolt safety latch.

This safety rotates upwards with the bolt when the bolt operating handle is opened into the vertical position, and due to whatever the lighting associated with the photo, it makes it appear as a "blurred" ball which on initial look, appears like a bolt operating handle on the opposite side of the weapon.

Were the bolt actually opened and completely rearward, then the end of the rearward end of the bolt would be approximately 4 and 1/2 inches farther to the rear than the back side of the trigger guard and the opened bolt would be directly to the rear of the trigger guard.

Good call John!

______________________________________________

So what's the "bottom line," guys?

Thanks, Thomas

______________________________________________

[Thomas H. Purvis]

I suggest the dot is the round bit of the bolt.

(image)

Just had to make me go dig out the rifles again, huh John?

I "suggest" that you are absolutely correct!

What we see, which on initial viewing, appears as some portion of the scope mounting clip is in fact the operating handle of the bolt in the raised position with the ball of the operating handle directly over that portion of the scope mount where the scope intersects it.

Thus giving an illusion of some type of different mounting clamps.

Secondly, the shiny object to the rear (towards the stock) which falls in direct alignment with and just below the adjustment ring on the scope is in fact the bolt safety latch.

This safety rotates upwards with the bolt when the bolt operating handle is opened into the vertical position, and due to whatever the lighting associated with the photo, it makes it appear as a "blurred" ball which on initial look, appears like a bolt operating handle on the opposite side of the weapon.

Were the bolt actually opened and completely rearward, then the end of the rearward end of the bolt would be approximately 4 and 1/2 inches farther to the rear than the back side of the trigger guard and the opened bolt would be directly to the rear of the trigger guard.

Good call John!

______________________________________________

So what's the "bottom line," guys?

Thanks, Thomas

______________________________________________

Thanks go to John who paid adequate attention to detail to make the "correct call" as regards the position of the operating handle of the bolt.

I certainly did not!---Merely glanced at the photo with little attention and assumed that the shiny object to the rear was the bolt.

Rifle:

The bolt operating handle has been turned upwards into it's full vertical position, thus placing the ball/knob of the handle in direct alignment with the scope and it's monting bracket.

The bolt IS NOT "opened"! It's operating handle is merely in the position at which the bolt could be pulled fully rearward, should one do so, and thus complete the opening of the bolt to expose the inside of the receiver and chamber.

The "Shiny" item to the rear of the bolt and directly under the scope adjustment ring is the safety of the weapon, which is flat and somewhat rounded (somewhat like a thick coin). When the bolt is fully closed in the firing position, this safety catch rotates downward and fits into the cut-out groove in the stock of the weapon, which can be clearly seen.

When the bolt operating handle is opened, it fully releases spring tension on the bolt portion (the bolt contains the firing spring and firing pin located through the center of the actual bolt), and the safety catch/safety knob turns fully upwards into a vertical position and slips backwards slightly (approximately 3/8 inch).

The clarity and quality of the Alyea film would make one (upon quick and incomplete review) think that the bolt was fully opened on the weapon.

It is not!

It is in fact exactly as John has determined in his photo examination.

One can compare the clarity of the one photo with the Alyea film frame, and thereafter compare the safety catch/knob which can be clearly seen in the one photo, with what appears as a blurred and somewhat "rounded" blob/blur in the Alyea frame.

This lack of clarity and detail on the Alyea frame is also quite evident when one compares such items as the rearward sight and other portions of the receiver of the weapon.

This lack of clarity, coupled with the nature of the lighting, would make it an impossibility to state that any difference exists between the two weapons.

[Chris Newton]

The bolt operating handle has been turned upwards into it's full vertical position, thus placing the ball/knob of the handle in direct alignment with the scope and it's monting bracket.

The bolt IS NOT "opened"! It's operating handle is merely in the position at which the bolt could be pulled fully rearward, should one do so, and thus complete the opening of the bolt to expose the inside of the receiver and chamber.

Thanks Thomas, I now believe you and John are correct it is in the raised but closed position. It would be mere speculation - and I have zilch experience with a Carcano's "action" - but could it have been open and slid closed because the are handling it in the manner shown? i.e holding it by it's strap, pointed downward - no doubt so as to not disturb that palmprint.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

The bolt operating handle has been turned upwards into it's full vertical position, thus placing the ball/knob of the handle in direct alignment with the scope and it's monting bracket.

The bolt IS NOT "opened"! It's operating handle is merely in the position at which the bolt could be pulled fully rearward, should one do so, and thus complete the opening of the bolt to expose the inside of the receiver and chamber.

Thanks Thomas, I now believe you and John are correct it is in the raised but closed position. It would be mere speculation - and I have zilch experience with a Carcano's "action" - but could it have been open and slid closed because the are handling it in the manner shown? i.e holding it by it's strap, pointed downward - no doubt so as to not disturb that palmprint.

http://www.jfklancer.com/photos/Rifle_Bullets/day1.jpg

Although smaller in size, the clarity and detail demonstrates the correctness of John's call.

Utilizing blurred enlargements which have loss of detail has sent many down the wrong path.

It would be unusual for the the weapon to be found with the bolt in this position. Normal operating reflex would dictate that one complete the action of closing the bolt.

However! If for some reason the final round did not fully seat in the chamber, then the bolt will not close fully to the extent that the bolt handle can be turned down into it's firing/locked/closed position.

This could also be the answer, but it is unlikely that we will ever know for certain.