The Three Magic Bullets

[John Dolva]

John,

I think you're spot on. We need to research the materials side of things a bit more. I can certainly look into it, but I'm not a materials expert. However, I do know several people who are, and perhaps I can impose upon them for a quick tutorial...

Yes please, perhaps you could ask them to skim through this topic and comment?

Part of the difficulty in finding data on the net is that most sites seem to be selling something to enhance concrete, and the raw data for old concrete or standard concrete is not available. Partly it's because it' impossible to generalise precicely about something that is produced in many variations, often depending on local material and varying even within a batch and how it's mixed etc. Anyway, it appears it's roughly like this:

The hardness of pure lead is 1.5 on the Mohs scale (between talc and gypsum: it can be scratched by the fingernail), and its tensile strength is only 2000 psi.

(mohs : Talc =1 , Diamond =10)

Concrete is somewhere around 6-7 Mohs.

compressive strength around 15 MPa.

46 grain fragment of lead at 260 fps causing this damage.

[John Dolva]

It would seem so, Cliff. So far, while looking for the levels, I've looked at some tables of 50 grain (a bit over 3 grams) at around 800 fps muzzle velocity. The trajectory over 90 yards is variance in the order of a foot max. So for it to have dropped to the curb (and not drifted off line) would indicate a much lower strike speed. Perhaps a good sling shot could duplicate it. Would that then chip concrete? Particularly at a tangential strike? I don't know.

The sinewave scratches* show that a wheel hitting the curb is not an unusual event.

(image)

A lead weight (wheel balance) is a possible source of the lead the FBI found.

This photo of Tague seems to show him with a little patch on a shave cut.

He said (contrary to what some assume) that the scratch on his left cheek is old and that the sting he remembered after Walthers pointed out the blood droplets on his cheek was on the right cheek. Sothere is no proof that he was hit by anything.

so dare one say: no Tague shot at all?

If so, what role has the Tague shot played? Does it's non existence (if my reasoning is correct here, please demolish) free one from considering some scenarios that depend on it? Did it serve to focus attention on the TSBD at that moment in time?

EDIT:: *the wheel size, sine waves## etc are merely illustrative of a sinewave scribed by a point on a circle as it rolls along. I suspect the tyre was flat and various parts of the hubcap and rim scratched the concrete and that a similar event caused the 'curb strike'. Perhaps Tague was a bit attracted to center stage and once the ball was rolling didn't back out. In the mean time he became convinced that what was theorised as happening actually was what did happen.

Subtract the Tague fragment/wounding/shot whatever, gone is a recurring 'but, what about the Tague shot'.... simple: It never happened. There's nothing in it to bother explaining.

##Turcoidal scratches on curb.

Topical bump

[Thomas H. Purvis]

It would seem so, Cliff. So far, while looking for the levels, I've looked at some tables of 50 grain (a bit over 3 grams) at around 800 fps muzzle velocity. The trajectory over 90 yards is variance in the order of a foot max. So for it to have dropped to the curb (and not drifted off line) would indicate a much lower strike speed. Perhaps a good sling shot could duplicate it. Would that then chip concrete? Particularly at a tangential strike? I don't know.

The sinewave scratches* show that a wheel hitting the curb is not an unusual event.

(image)

A lead weight (wheel balance) is a possible source of the lead the FBI found.

This photo of Tague seems to show him with a little patch on a shave cut.

He said (contrary to what some assume) that the scratch on his left cheek is old and that the sting he remembered after Walthers pointed out the blood droplets on his cheek was on the right cheek. Sothere is no proof that he was hit by anything.

so dare one say: no Tague shot at all?

If so, what role has the Tague shot played? Does it's non existence (if my reasoning is correct here, please demolish) free one from considering some scenarios that depend on it? Did it serve to focus attention on the TSBD at that moment in time?

EDIT:: *the wheel size, sine waves## etc are merely illustrative of a sinewave scribed by a point on a circle as it rolls along. I suspect the tyre was flat and various parts of the hubcap and rim scratched the concrete and that a similar event caused the 'curb strike'. Perhaps Tague was a bit attracted to center stage and once the ball was rolling didn't back out. In the mean time he became convinced that what was theorised as happening actually was what did happen.

Subtract the Tague fragment/wounding/shot whatever, gone is a recurring 'but, what about the Tague shot'.... simple: It never happened. There's nothing in it to bother explaining.

##Turcoidal scratches on curb.

Topical bump

In regards to the concrete:

One can research and speculate until hell freezes over, and they will still have absolutely nothing which has any foundation and/or basis in fact.

a. Design Mix: Unless one knows the design mix of the specific concrete which was utilized, to include aggregate size and compositions, they have nothing.

And, even then, they would still have nothing as there will always be complete differences between the compressive strengths of various aggregates within the concrete as compared with the actual compressive strength ability of the portland and sands utilized within the mix.

Not unlike asphalt which contains aggregate! If one shoots the asphalt and hits an area of only pure asphalt, then they will most likely create an easily visible area of damage. Yet, if one squarely hits directly onto one of the rock/stone aggregates within the asphalt, then a soft nosed bullet can be easily shattered; fragmented; and deflected, with little evidence of having ever struck anywhere within the area.

b. Cement to Water ration/aka Slump: Even if one knew the exact design mix and characteristics, without knowing the actual "slump" at which the concrete was poured, one would still have nothing as the amount of water* added to the mix to aid in pouring, severely impacts ultimate concrete design strength.

* It is generally assumed that the concrete curbs (& gutters) were poured prior to the advent of such water decreasing agents such as plasticizer" additives.

c. Other additives: Since there is no record of exactly when the concrete curb and gutters were poured, as well as the concrete batch tickets to demonstrate this, one has no exact way of knowing whether the concrete may have been poured during the winter months and some form of concrete additive to accelerate curing utilized in the batch mix.

Which, by it's very nature, always has some effect on the ultimate concrete strength.

d. Curing: Properly cured concrete requires that a continous moisturized surface be maintained throughout a minimum of the first 72 hours of curing. Which is seldom done.

Therefore, the surface area of the concrete virtually always dries rapidly, which severely impacts not only the ultimate strength, but also severely impacts the surface of the concrete and it's resistance to crumbling, etc;.

That is why when sample cylinders of concrete are tested, the exposed surface end is always cut and removed, as depending upon the actually allowed rapidity of moisture loss, the surface area of the concrete can actually be made to easily crumble by the human hand, and yet the interior of the concrete still have sufficient strength to meet the design mix.

e. "Pavement Concrete" has not been the same as "Structural Concrete" for many, many a year.

And although I do not have the knowledge as to exactly when the first change was made, in these "design's", Highway/road/curb & Gutter concrete design mixes have long been know as "flex"-mix as they were designed more for their capability to actually "flex" with expansion and contraction capability, then for their structural design strength.

All of which clearly demonstrates the "tangents" which some will branch off onto in some attempt to prove and/or disprove some specific point which can never be either proven or disproven.

All of which also demonstrates exactly why many are still chasing mythological creatures.

[William Kelly]

It would seem so, Cliff. So far, while looking for the levels, I've looked at some tables of 50 grain (a bit over 3 grams) at around 800 fps muzzle velocity. The trajectory over 90 yards is variance in the order of a foot max. So for it to have dropped to the curb (and not drifted off line) would indicate a much lower strike speed. Perhaps a good sling shot could duplicate it. Would that then chip concrete? Particularly at a tangential strike? I don't know.

The sinewave scratches* show that a wheel hitting the curb is not an unusual event.

(image)

A lead weight (wheel balance) is a possible source of the lead the FBI found.

This photo of Tague seems to show him with a little patch on a shave cut.

He said (contrary to what some assume) that the scratch on his left cheek is old and that the sting he remembered after Walthers pointed out the blood droplets on his cheek was on the right cheek. Sothere is no proof that he was hit by anything.

so dare one say: no Tague shot at all?

If so, what role has the Tague shot played? Does it's non existence (if my reasoning is correct here, please demolish) free one from considering some scenarios that depend on it? Did it serve to focus attention on the TSBD at that moment in time?

EDIT:: *the wheel size, sine waves## etc are merely illustrative of a sinewave scribed by a point on a circle as it rolls along. I suspect the tyre was flat and various parts of the hubcap and rim scratched the concrete and that a similar event caused the 'curb strike'. Perhaps Tague was a bit attracted to center stage and once the ball was rolling didn't back out. In the mean time he became convinced that what was theorised as happening actually was what did happen.

##Turcoidal scratches on curb.

Topical bump

In regards to the concrete:

One can research and speculate until hell freezes over, and they will still have absolutely nothing which has any foundation and/or basis in fact.

a. Design Mix: Unless one knows the design mix of the specific concrete which was utilized, to include aggregate size and compositions, they have nothing.

And, even then, they would still have nothing as there will always be complete differences between the compressive strengths of various aggregates within the concrete as compared with the actual compressive strength ability of the portland and sands utilized within the mix.

Not unlike asphalt which contains aggregate! If one shoots the asphalt and hits an area of only pure asphalt, then they will most likely create an easily visible area of damage. Yet, if one squarely hits directly onto one of the rock/stone aggregates within the asphalt, then a soft nosed bullet can be easily shattered; fragmented; and deflected, with little evidence of having ever struck anywhere within the area.

b. Cement to Water ration/aka Slump: Even if one knew the exact design mix and characteristics, without knowing the actual "slump" at which the concrete was poured, one would still have nothing as the amount of water* added to the mix to aid in pouring, severely impacts ultimate concrete design strength.

* It is generally assumed that the concrete curbs (& gutters) were poured prior to the advent of such water decreasing agents such as plasticizer" additives.

c. Other additives: Since there is no record of exactly when the concrete curb and gutters were poured, as well as the concrete batch tickets to demonstrate this, one has no exact way of knowing whether the concrete may have been poured during the winter months and some form of concrete additive to accelerate curing utilized in the batch mix.

Which, by it's very nature, always has some effect on the ultimate concrete strength.

d. Curing: Properly cured concrete requires that a continous moisturized surface be maintained throughout a minimum of the first 72 hours of curing. Which is seldom done.

Therefore, the surface area of the concrete virtually always dries rapidly, which severely impacts not only the ultimate strength, but also severely impacts the surface of the concrete and it's resistance to crumbling, etc;.

That is why when sample cylinders of concrete are tested, the exposed surface end is always cut and removed, as depending upon the actually allowed rapidity of moisture loss, the surface area of the concrete can actually be made to easily crumble by the human hand, and yet the interior of the concrete still have sufficient strength to meet the design mix.

e. "Pavement Concrete" has not been the same as "Structural Concrete" for many, many a year.

And although I do not have the knowledge as to exactly when the first change was made, in these "design's", Highway/road/curb & Gutter concrete design mixes have long been know as "flex"-mix as they were designed more for their capability to actually "flex" with expansion and contraction capability, then for their structural design strength.

All of which clearly demonstrates the "tangents" which some will branch off onto in some attempt to prove and/or disprove some specific point which can never be either proven or disproven.

All of which also demonstrates exactly why many are still chasing mythological creatures.

Subtract the Tague fragment/wounding/shot whatever, gone is a recurring 'but, what about the Tague shot'.... simple: It never happened. There's nothing in it to bother explaining.

I'm sure you would have a hard time convincing Tague of that.

So you just ignore a prime witness and a victim of the crime in order to keep your theory of what happend intact?

BK

[Thomas H. Purvis]

It would seem so, Cliff. So far, while looking for the levels, I've looked at some tables of 50 grain (a bit over 3 grams) at around 800 fps muzzle velocity. The trajectory over 90 yards is variance in the order of a foot max. So for it to have dropped to the curb (and not drifted off line) would indicate a much lower strike speed. Perhaps a good sling shot could duplicate it. Would that then chip concrete? Particularly at a tangential strike? I don't know.

The sinewave scratches* show that a wheel hitting the curb is not an unusual event.

(image)

A lead weight (wheel balance) is a possible source of the lead the FBI found.

This photo of Tague seems to show him with a little patch on a shave cut.

He said (contrary to what some assume) that the scratch on his left cheek is old and that the sting he remembered after Walthers pointed out the blood droplets on his cheek was on the right cheek. Sothere is no proof that he was hit by anything.

so dare one say: no Tague shot at all?

If so, what role has the Tague shot played? Does it's non existence (if my reasoning is correct here, please demolish) free one from considering some scenarios that depend on it? Did it serve to focus attention on the TSBD at that moment in time?

EDIT:: *the wheel size, sine waves## etc are merely illustrative of a sinewave scribed by a point on a circle as it rolls along. I suspect the tyre was flat and various parts of the hubcap and rim scratched the concrete and that a similar event caused the 'curb strike'. Perhaps Tague was a bit attracted to center stage and once the ball was rolling didn't back out. In the mean time he became convinced that what was theorised as happening actually was what did happen.

##Turcoidal scratches on curb.

Topical bump

In regards to the concrete:

One can research and speculate until hell freezes over, and they will still have absolutely nothing which has any foundation and/or basis in fact.

a. Design Mix: Unless one knows the design mix of the specific concrete which was utilized, to include aggregate size and compositions, they have nothing.

And, even then, they would still have nothing as there will always be complete differences between the compressive strengths of various aggregates within the concrete as compared with the actual compressive strength ability of the portland and sands utilized within the mix.

Not unlike asphalt which contains aggregate! If one shoots the asphalt and hits an area of only pure asphalt, then they will most likely create an easily visible area of damage. Yet, if one squarely hits directly onto one of the rock/stone aggregates within the asphalt, then a soft nosed bullet can be easily shattered; fragmented; and deflected, with little evidence of having ever struck anywhere within the area.

b. Cement to Water ration/aka Slump: Even if one knew the exact design mix and characteristics, without knowing the actual "slump" at which the concrete was poured, one would still have nothing as the amount of water* added to the mix to aid in pouring, severely impacts ultimate concrete design strength.

* It is generally assumed that the concrete curbs (& gutters) were poured prior to the advent of such water decreasing agents such as plasticizer" additives.

c. Other additives: Since there is no record of exactly when the concrete curb and gutters were poured, as well as the concrete batch tickets to demonstrate this, one has no exact way of knowing whether the concrete may have been poured during the winter months and some form of concrete additive to accelerate curing utilized in the batch mix.

Which, by it's very nature, always has some effect on the ultimate concrete strength.

d. Curing: Properly cured concrete requires that a continous moisturized surface be maintained throughout a minimum of the first 72 hours of curing. Which is seldom done.

Therefore, the surface area of the concrete virtually always dries rapidly, which severely impacts not only the ultimate strength, but also severely impacts the surface of the concrete and it's resistance to crumbling, etc;.

That is why when sample cylinders of concrete are tested, the exposed surface end is always cut and removed, as depending upon the actually allowed rapidity of moisture loss, the surface area of the concrete can actually be made to easily crumble by the human hand, and yet the interior of the concrete still have sufficient strength to meet the design mix.

e. "Pavement Concrete" has not been the same as "Structural Concrete" for many, many a year.

And although I do not have the knowledge as to exactly when the first change was made, in these "design's", Highway/road/curb & Gutter concrete design mixes have long been know as "flex"-mix as they were designed more for their capability to actually "flex" with expansion and contraction capability, then for their structural design strength.

All of which clearly demonstrates the "tangents" which some will branch off onto in some attempt to prove and/or disprove some specific point which can never be either proven or disproven.

All of which also demonstrates exactly why many are still chasing mythological creatures.

Subtract the Tague fragment/wounding/shot whatever, gone is a recurring 'but, what about the Tague shot'.... simple: It never happened. There's nothing in it to bother explaining.

I'm sure you would have a hard time convincing Tague of that.

So you just ignore a prime witness and a victim of the crime in order to keep your theory of what happend intact?

BK

So you just ignore a prime witness and a victim of the crime in order to keep your theory of what happend intact?

William:

Since John has never to my knowledge displayed a full "theory" on the shots, and since you posted the above statement after my discussion on concrete, it would be assumed that you have confused this statement as being something which I have stated.

IT IS NOT!

Tague was, by all known evidence and standards, struck on the cheek of the face by some object which gave him an extremely minor skin abrasion.

Now, as to the problem!

One does not know and has no way of proving or disproving:

A. As to whether the scratch on Tague's face was created by a lead fragment which took a direct line of flight from the impact to the head of JFK, directly to the facial cheek of Tague.

B. As to whether a fragment from the impact to the head of JFK took a line of flight which impacted the asphalt street and then deflected up to hit Tague.

C. As to whether a fragment from the impact to the head of JFK took a line of flight which impacted the asphalt street, only to be deflected to a section of the concrete curbing, and then took a line of flight up to hit Tague.

D. As to whether a fragment from the impact to the head of JFK a line of flight in which it ultimately struck the concrete curbing and then caused a small piece of the concrete to be shattered off and it is in fact what struck Tague.

E. As to whether, beyond any reasonable doubt, the "curb nick" even has any relationship and/or bearing on the injury to Tague.

================================================================================

All that one can state with certainty is the simple fact that Tague received a small scratch to his cheek, which by his own accounting occurred most probably as a result of the second shot fired, and that this scratch to his face was caused by some missile, which by all indications would have been either a fragment of lead; a fragment of the copper jacket to a bullet; or a small fragment of concrete which was shattered and subsequently caused to strike him.

John Dolva's work has convinced him that the "curb strike" is not an impact of any kind of all, and this work has considerable merit.

But, it is most unlikely that any of this will ever be or can be factually resolved.

================================================================================

Lastly, one may want to take into consideration that the WC fully utilized the "Tage/Curb Strike" in attempt to foster their wonderful scenario in regards to "THE SHOT THAT MISSED"!

Which certainly helped to lead many to the totally unsupportable conclusion that some shot actually missed.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...eport_0068a.htm

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...eport_0070b.htm

[John Dolva]

Tom, I largely agree with your summary. I would add that concrete on the surface is degraded over time, particularly in areas such as the dip of the triple underpass where assorted reagents from car pollution 'pool'.

Further, I am arguing that the "curb strike" is an impact and that it can be argued it is a (fairly) common opccurrance of a wheel weight impacting. Particularly with rather obvious turcoidal scratches on the curb. (I find it interesting that the FBI photo of the curb is incorrectly orientated (ditto the switching of headshot frames in Z and N,) and other peculiar obfuscations of a similar nature.) If it can be so argued then "E. As to whether, beyond any reasonable doubt, the "curb nick" even has any relationship and/or bearing on the injury to Tague" (Tom) is worthy of consideration (as well as the other points, further, as Tom says, "William: Since John has never to my knowledge displayed a full "theory" on the shots," (which I haven't. In me there are many areas of lack of knowledge, and these discussions on this education forum I find helpful.)

Perhaps one day out of a (hopefully objective and dispassionate) study, such a theory will arise, and it may very well be the same as what others have already concluded)

Either way, any conclusive, rather than suggestive theories built with the foundation of Tagues injury will carry the 'reasonable doubt' in its fundament.

Edited October 23, 2008 by John Dolva

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Tom, I largely agree with your summary. I would add that concrete on the surface is degraded over time, particularly in areas such as the dip of the triple underpass where assorted reagents from car pollution 'pool'.

Further, I am arguing that the "curb strike" is an impact and that it can be argued it is a (fairly) common opccurrance of a wheel weight impacting. Particularly with rather obvious turcoidal scratches on the curb. (I find it interesting that the FBI photo of the curb is incorrectly orientated (ditto the switching of headshot frames in Z and N,) and other peculiar obfuscations of a similar nature.) If it can be so argued then "E. As to whether, beyond any reasonable doubt, the "curb nick" even has any relationship and/or bearing on the injury to Tague" (Tom) is worthy of consideration (as well as the other points, further, as Tom says, "William: Since John has never to my knowledge displayed a full "theory" on the shots," (which I haven't. In me there are many areas of lack of knowledge, and these discussions on this education forum I find helpful.)

Perhaps one day out of a (hopefully objective and dispassionate) study, such a theory will arise, and it may very well be the same as what others have already concluded)

Either way, any conclusive, rather than suggestive theories built with the foundation of Tagues injury will carry the 'reasonable doubt' in its fundament.

John;

While others continue to chase mythological beings and their mythological bullet/fragment impacts, one will find that even when discussing the only KNOWN potential impact location/aka the Tague "Curb Strike", that they are left with only speculation which has some basis in fact.

(As opposed to speculation which has no basis in fact)

In that regards, your theory on the impact/damaged curb being potentially caused by a lead weight installed onto a tire rim (during wheel balancing) is, and was, most assuredly a new insight into the potential cause for the "curb nick" anomaly.

And, as open as I attempt to keep my blinders to other potential alternatives, I had never given consideration to this, even though I am completely familiar with the manner in which you present how the nick could have occurred.

And, the potential which you have presented, is exactly why the yellow curb marks were painted onto the curbs of the streets in Dallas, in order to assist motorist in recognition as to exactly how close to the curb they were, primarly during night time driving.

Just as many streets and highways have white striping along the exterior edge of both sides of the street.

Nevertheless, I am of the opinion that a considerably higher probability exists that the "turcoidal " marks to which you refer:

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol21_0253b.htm

Are more likely to have been created by the Street Cleaning machine which was utilized on a weekly basis, and which machine runs it's rotating roller brush directly along the edge of the curb and gutters of the street.

And therefore, the "curb nick" is, to a higher degree of probability, a nick/scrape in the concrete which was caused by a fragment of lead from the headshot at the Z313 impact.

In that regards, one must look "closely" at the means employed by the WC to obscure the information relative to this item of evidence.

Below, is the original photograph which has been "adjusted", and which tends to demonstrate that the turcodial scratches do not appear in this early/original photo.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol21_0253a.htm

Shaneyfelt Exhibit#32 shows the curb impact location, looking across the location towards the Northeast and the TSDB.

Note the location of the far right light pole in regards to the corner of the building.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol21_0252a.htm

Shaneyfelt Exhibit#29 (bottom photo) which is in reality the photograph which was taken by Tom Underwood.

One might note the location of the right light pole in relationship to the corner of the background building.