Survey: Where to look?

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Thanks. It certainly is better then the one the WC puts out. But, obviously not as high a resolution as the portions of the plan previously posted. West sounds like a very typical old time surveyor. I came up around these guys. I, of course, I never met Mr. West. But I have definitly worked with guys like him all my life. Surveying is and unusual profession in the United States. It attract's certain type of individual. Guys like Mr. West are the straightest shooters there are and they all seem to make the same style of plan, neat, attractive to the eye and above all accurate (don't get me wrong of course mistakes happen). I would take his word over anyone's as to what happened in DP. Too bad he didn't have a better view. He said 4 shots, didn't he? Stuck to his guns too later on. A guy like West would never change his story. I know. I have had the pleasure of working with guys just like him all my life. Few and far between now, but some are still out there a number of them in my profession. I could go on about exactly how this profession, Land Surveying, makes the type of man that West was. But you sure don't want to hear me bragging for a couple hours.

Are you the same Bob Goodman who used to hang around Dealey Plaza a lot

and is a friend of Jim Marrs? What I posted is from a xerox copy of the West/Breneman/Life

plat which Jim gave me. Purvis claims that someone stole it from HIM, even though

it was given to Jim more than 20 years ago.

Jack

Purvis claims that someone stole it from HIM, even though

it was given to Jim more than 20 years ago.

That Jack, happens to be another of your lies.

And, before this subject matter is ended, I will, demonstrate what a complete fool you are in your claims as regards receiving this survey plat 20 years ago.

Since I did not get it until 1991 or so, then it is most unlikely that "My" footprints could be found on it had you received it 20 years ago.

So, if you wish to keep attempting to convince yourself that you got this survey 20 years ago, then have at it.

However, you will have a "lot" of explaining to do if and when I continue to reveal those items which demonstrate "my" signature all over the plat.

P.S. You never have explained the rationale of the line eminating from the TSDB and ending at the approximate Z204/206 stationing.

And Bob may be a "new guy" to this subject matter, but I have no doubts that he too would appreciate an explanation as to exactly why this line appears when no one other than Tom/me is out her on this limb claiming the first shot fired at Z204/206.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...58787entry58787

Post #106

In order to determine what would be the true position of JFK at the time that the first shot was fired, which plots/plats in the approximate vicinity of what would actually be Z-204/205, one would have to have in their possession the survey notes and data from the Time/Life survey work, which establishes SCP points, and thereafter gives directions and distances from these points, to this position on Elm St.

Hey Jack!

I am certain that Bob, with his survey background, as well as others, would like to know exactly where the SCP that Mr. West established during the Time/Life Survey is located.

Especially since the Z204/206 impact point on the drawing which you have shown was derived utilizing the survey notes from the Time/Life Survey, establishing the SCP onto the WC full size survey plat, and then measuring the direction and distance to this impact point.

Perhaps you and/or Jim Mars just got out the ole crystal ball and determined this impact point!

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Thanks. It certainly is better then the one the WC puts out. But, obviously not as high a resolution as the portions of the plan previously posted. West sounds like a very typical old time surveyor. I came up around these guys. I, of course, I never met Mr. West. But I have definitly worked with guys like him all my life. Surveying is and unusual profession in the United States. It attract's certain type of individual. Guys like Mr. West are the straightest shooters there are and they all seem to make the same style of plan, neat, attractive to the eye and above all accurate (don't get me wrong of course mistakes happen). I would take his word over anyone's as to what happened in DP. Too bad he didn't have a better view. He said 4 shots, didn't he? Stuck to his guns too later on. A guy like West would never change his story. I know. I have had the pleasure of working with guys just like him all my life. Few and far between now, but some are still out there a number of them in my profession. I could go on about exactly how this profession, Land Surveying, makes the type of man that West was. But you sure don't want to hear me bragging for a couple hours.

Are you the same Bob Goodman who used to hang around Dealey Plaza a lot

and is a friend of Jim Marrs? What I posted is from a xerox copy of the West/Breneman/Life

plat which Jim gave me. Purvis claims that someone stole it from HIM, even though

it was given to Jim more than 20 years ago.

Jack

Purvis claims that someone stole it from HIM, even though

it was given to Jim more than 20 years ago.

That Jack, happens to be another of your lies.

And, before this subject matter is ended, I will, demonstrate what a complete fool you are in your claims as regards receiving this survey plat 20 years ago.

Since I did not get it until 1991 or so, then it is most unlikely that "My" footprints could be found on it had you received it 20 years ago.

So, if you wish to keep attempting to convince yourself that you got this survey 20 years ago, then have at it.

However, you will have a "lot" of explaining to do if and when I continue to reveal those items which demonstrate "my" signature all over the plat.

P.S. You never have explained the rationale of the line eminating from the TSDB and ending at the approximate Z204/206 stationing.

And Bob may be a "new guy" to this subject matter, but I have no doubts that he too would appreciate an explanation as to exactly why this line appears when no one other than Tom/me is out her on this limb claiming the first shot fired at Z204/206.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...58787entry58787

Post #106

In order to determine what would be the true position of JFK at the time that the first shot was fired, which plots/plats in the approximate vicinity of what would actually be Z-204/205, one would have to have in their possession the survey notes and data from the Time/Life survey work, which establishes SCP points, and thereafter gives directions and distances from these points, to this position on Elm St.

Hey Jack!

I am certain that Bob, with his survey background, as well as others, would like to know exactly where the SCP that Mr. West established during the Time/Life Survey is located.

Especially since the Z204/206 impact point on the drawing which you have shown was derived utilizing the survey notes from the Time/Life Survey, establishing the SCP onto the WC full size survey plat, and then measuring the direction and distance to this impact point.

Perhaps you and/or Jim Mars just got out the ole crystal ball and determined this impact point!

Bob;

Neither Jack White nor Jim Mars can give you what they do not have.

Full size copies.

Here is a legible portion taken directly from one of the full size WC Survey plats in my possession.

This "working copy" contains the two lines which Jack can not seem to explain on his drawing, as well as some later scribblings and notes.

Hope that you now see the somewhat necessity for limitation of information provided and control in a manner which is acceptable to me.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Hey Jack;

Want to see another "footprint".

The Original Survey Plat produces extremely "faint" and almost completely faded away street contour lines, as demonstrated by the attached copy that I just made from the original.

After the first or second stage of reduction, these were so faint on the reduced copies, that I "hand drew" back over them in order that they could be seen.

If you will take the time to have a "close" look at your reportedly 20-year old drawing, you just may see where I redrew these contour lines in so that they could be seen. As well as several other items

Also, if you had a decent copy, you would also know the significance of "Point "A" which can easily be seen on my copy. Which of course is made from the original.

There are several other items/footprints and perhaps next up we will demonstrate the one which will clearly demonstrate how little you actually know or understand about any of this survey work.

As well as again demonstrate that either your memory has completely gone or else you continue to lie and believe it yourself in regards to the age of your reduced copy of the survey.

P.S. One can truly see the faintness of the street elevation contour lines in the previous copy of the plat at street elevation 3+00

[David G. Healy]

Hey Jack;

Want to see another "footprint".

The Original Survey Plat produces extremely "faint" and almost completely faded away street contour lines, as demonstrated by the attached copy that I just made from the original.

After the first or second stage of reduction, these were so faint on the reduced copies, that I "hand drew" back over them in order that they could be seen.

If you will take the time to have a "close" look at your reportedly 20-year old drawing, you just may see where I redrew these contour lines in so that they could be seen. As well as several other items

Also, if you had a decent copy, you would also know the significance of "Point "A" which can easily be seen on my copy. Which of course is made from the original.

There are several other items/footprints and perhaps next up we will demonstrate the one which will clearly demonstrate how little you actually know or understand about any of this survey work.

As well as again demonstrate that either your memory has completely gone or else you continue to lie and believe it yourself in regards to the age of your reduced copy of the survey.

P.S. One can truly see the faintness of the street elevation contour lines in the previous copy of the plat at street elevation 3+00

Tom,

Quick question, regarding a final shot Z-35? what position would a present a better sight picture [in your estimation], Oswald's alleged window on the 6th floor, a window at the other end of the 6th floor, or directly above ?

David

Edited October 31, 2006 by David G. Healy

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Hey Jack;

Want to see another "footprint".

The Original Survey Plat produces extremely "faint" and almost completely faded away street contour lines, as demonstrated by the attached copy that I just made from the original.

After the first or second stage of reduction, these were so faint on the reduced copies, that I "hand drew" back over them in order that they could be seen.

If you will take the time to have a "close" look at your reportedly 20-year old drawing, you just may see where I redrew these contour lines in so that they could be seen. As well as several other items

Also, if you had a decent copy, you would also know the significance of "Point "A" which can easily be seen on my copy. Which of course is made from the original.

There are several other items/footprints and perhaps next up we will demonstrate the one which will clearly demonstrate how little you actually know or understand about any of this survey work.

As well as again demonstrate that either your memory has completely gone or else you continue to lie and believe it yourself in regards to the age of your reduced copy of the survey.

P.S. One can truly see the faintness of the street elevation contour lines in the previous copy of the plat at street elevation 3+00

Tom,

Quick question, regarding a final shot Z-35? what position would a present a better sight picture [in your estimation], Oswald's alleged window on the 6th floor, a window at the other end of the 6th floor, or directly above ?

David

David;

Based on LHO's movements and having been seen at the other end of the sixth floor, it appears that he may have evaluated this as well.

The other end of the sixth floor would have created a considerably more difficult shot as the vehicle would have been travelling considerably more "laterally" across the field of view/shooting zone.

Thus requiring an extremely difficult shot due to the "lead" which would be required based on the lateral speed of the target across the zone.

However, the "snipers perch" window provided an almost absolute straight shot down Elm St. to the impact point of the third shot, with absolutely no lateral lead on the target required, and only a small amount of vertical lead in which the targer was actually travelling deeper into the vertical zone of fire.

Thus, by utilizing the Snipers Perch window (East Window) the shooter????? virtually eliminated any requirements for "lateral lead" on the target and thereby eliminated one of the hardest factors in shooting accurately and obtaining hits. Especially with the target moving "into" the vertical zone of fire which meant that even if one merely aimed at the back of the head, they were insured a hit at least in the neck or the back as the target moved through the zone.

Hope that answers it!

P.S. Everything about the TSDB position serves to indicate the best of prior planning.

Had JFK had the bubble top on the Limo, the shooter could have, if deemed necessary, taken shots as JFK drove into the field/down of fire, again on a straight line with virtually no lateral movement.

Whoever picked the "corner" location appears to have known full well the advantages which are offered.

Any good "ambusher" knows that when operating with minimal forces and a larger force comes into view, it is best, if possible, to shoot the rear of the column and then run like hell away from the killing zone.

If you are dumb enough to shoot the lead man, then the rest of the column will be after your ass.

P.S. Hope the attached drawing helps, it too, not unlike most of this stuff is of the 1990's vintage.

[Frank Agbat]

...

However, the "snipers perch" window provided an almost absolute straight shot down Elm St. to the impact point of the third shot, with absolutely no lateral lead on the target required, and only a small amount of vertical lead in which the targer was actually travelling deeper into the vertical zone of fire.

...

Thomas,

I agree that the sniper's nest *did* offer a straighter shot than many people realize. I have no doubt that I could make a killing shot from this location, given, of course, a reasonably competent weapon and the appropriate amount of time.

In your opinion, had the seating arrangements been reversed -- that is to say, Jackie and JFK switching sides -- would the shot opportunities have remained the same?

[Thomas H. Purvis]

...

However, the "snipers perch" window provided an almost absolute straight shot down Elm St. to the impact point of the third shot, with absolutely no lateral lead on the target required, and only a small amount of vertical lead in which the targer was actually travelling deeper into the vertical zone of fire.

...

Thomas,

I agree that the sniper's nest *did* offer a straighter shot than many people realize. I have no doubt that I could make a killing shot from this location, given, of course, a reasonably competent weapon and the appropriate amount of time.

In your opinion, had the seating arrangements been reversed -- that is to say, Jackie and JFK switching sides -- would the shot opportunities have remained the same?

I agree that the sniper's nest *did* offer a straighter shot than many people realize. I have no doubt that I could make a killing shot from this location, given, of course, a reasonably competent weapon and the appropriate amount of time.

If one will read the results of Edgewood Arsenal tests, they will find that the Carcano had a dispersion error which was equivilant to the US Army's current rifle. The M-14. Which happens to be quite excellent for accuracy.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. We fired this weapon from a machine rest for round-to-round dispersion. We fired exactly 20 rounds in this test, and the dispersion which we measured is of conventional magnitude, about the same that we get with our present military rifles, and the standard deviation of dispersion is .29 mil

Mr. EISENBERG. Would you consider that to be a high degree of accuracy?

Mr. SIMMONS. Yes, the weapon is quite accurate. For most small arms, we discover that the round- to-round dispersion is of the order of three-tenths of a mil. We have run into some unusual ones, however, which give us higher values, but very few which give us smaller values, except in selected lots of ammunition.

Mr. McCLOY. You are talking about the present military rifle--will you designate it?

Mr. SIMMONS. The M-14.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If one reads all that gets posted here, they will find that the elapsed time between the first shot, to the second shot (Z313) was at minimum, 5.5 seconds of elapsed time and quite probably as much as 5.8 seconds. Well over twice what the FBI determined as sufficient time to effectively operate and aim the weapon.

Therefore, this required no great "Sniper" skills, nor did it require anything beyond even a basic skill with a/the rifle.

Now as to the last shot. It was most definitely fired in virtually exactly the "minimum" time as determined by the FBI.

And although it certainly struck it's target, in the head, one must also consider the variables of the targer.

The target was now elongated horizontally, therefore, any aiming point which took in the head vicinity would have also been compensated for by the larger surface area of the back of the head, the neck, and the upper shoulders.

Therefore, even though it was a good shot in short time, there was nothing extra ordinary about the fact that it managed to strike JFK in the neck at the edge of the hairline, and thereafter penetrated through his skull due only to the fact of the horizontal position in which his head and face were positioned.

In your opinion, had the seating arrangements been reversed -- that is to say, Jackie and JFK switching sides -- would the shot opportunities have remained the same

The first two shots would have had a slightly increased cross-angle of fire as can be readily seen from the large "insert".

However, even this was not of such a deviation to create that much problems with a slow moving vehicle.

As the vehicle moved farther down Elm St, this cross-angle of fire would have decreased considerably also.

The single most difficult would have been holding a lead on a laterally moving target which not only was moving forward at an undetermined speed, but was also dropping in elevation as it moved forward.

Compensating for this would require a "master" marksman.

However, this difficult was eliminated by NOT firing from the West side windows of the TSDB.

Additionally, re-acquisition of the target as it moves across a lateral field is also extremely difficult. Whereas, re-acquisition in the virtual straight-line zone of fire is far easier as one does not have that much in the way of lateral movement of the rifle barrel in location of the lateral moving target.

Shot# 1 did not blow JFK's head off due to the circumstances of flight path obstruction.

Shot#2 lacked less than an inch or so being a complete miss over the top of JFK's head.

Shot#3 was at a horizontally elongated target as opposed to a "spot" point, that was moving directly away from the target in the vertical field of fire, and thus was bound to hit something.

It in fact hit low, as it struck in the edge of the hairline of the neck and only passed through the head due to the plane of the neck and head.

All of which truley does not strike me as being that great of a shooting skill.

For whatever that is worth.

[Bob Goodman]

Frank, I would love to be able to consider your opinion from a professional viewpoint.. However without all plans and fieldwork remaining in private and public hands being digitized (Kinkos scanned 36 x 24”, about 20 bucks) using a high resolution and placed in a public area, i.e. a web page, discussion quickly breaks down. Without the benefit of having numbers of experienced professionals able to examine the plans and field books we are left with amateur speculation. This is not to say over time an amateur cannot become knowledgeable, not at all. But that the average person on the street doesn’t have the time or, my lord, the inclination to do the work and study necessary, then somehow, surround himself with experienced professional people who tutor them for years in the mechanics of the work and help him understand the meaning of it all. However, even then a certain type of person will be able to rise to the professional level, not many in this category. That being said, having a common place to look at the same plan would enable laypeople as well as professionals to communicate and intelligently discuss various features shown on the plans. When I am talking to a customer on the phone about a parcel of land that I’ve recently drawn a plan for, I find that most times, we can’t even understand each other at all unless we both have the same plan in front of us, despite our familiarity with the property. You need to have that picture in front of you before you can make any meaningful comment and the person you’re communicating with needs it in front of them to understand what you are talking about. Another reason to have the plans and fieldwork available for public inspection is it will deter the someone being able to declare what they show or do not show It insures correctness, a type of pubic “peer” review.

Tom, you said “As you have stated, the art is now far advanced with lasers and Global Positioning. But these modern tools are not required for the short distances and angles which Mr. West established throughout Dealy Plaza and in specific the assassination zone.”

I agree and personally I really do prefer a transit and tape myself but, for example, utilizing modern equipment will enable one to directly, physically measure distances which Mr. West was only able to infer by calculation. For example, Mr. West never made a direct measure from his nails marking the point of impact, to the sixth floor window of the Depository. Today it can be done easily, without disturbing anyone in the depository or having to get their permission to enter the building to gather the survey data. This can be done utilizing what’s called “reflectorless technology”. This is just one of the more obvious and least important examples of what a new survey with modern technology can offer. The most important thing is CAD which lets you build a 3-d model of just about anything. The information derived from such a model could put to the test trajectory information and shed light on any other suspected trajectorys. Many other hard held assumptions might have to change overnight. Photos can be inserted into this digital plan and scaled to an almost evidentiary level of accuracy. Many things can be proved as well as disproved from a digitized plan of this type. I can’t emphasize enough how important a modern survey and a digital plan is to this case. Using West’s and other surveyor’s work as a basis for a modern survey is a required first step to creating a digitized version. This “model” thus created can serve as a framework for anyone with the knowledge to use it. This information then could be used by anybody, from anywhere in the world, to either speculate from or end speculation of, once and for all. With a minimum of field work one could expand on this basic digitized plan over time as theories, interests and new information dictate. As a professional, I can’t emphasize enough how important I believe this survey work could be to anyone interested in shedding light on the events of 11/22/63. Whatever their intentions, one of the first things the Warren Commission did was what any inquiry would have to do, they engaged a Surveyor. Therefore one of the first things any professionaly done examination of the WC’s results would include a modern CAD based survey. Photo’s can be doctored, testimony can be changed, character impeached. The physical facts of where the street is/was and is where the buildings are/were, what the elevations are/were. etc., etc. cannot be changed. Only over time can the information gradually slip away. Removal of walkways and fences, new sidewalks and curbs, building demolitions, landscaping, etc. can and will happen. It is important to get this information quickly and placed into a redundant database as well as physically documented before any more changes take place in Dealy Plaza. A survey is the one thing about this case that can’t be faked or altered because the information it contains can always be held up for public scrutiny and can be confirmed if in doubt. So a survey can’t be faked without the facts coming to light, but the facts of a survey can be suppressed either by governments, self-serving individuals, those with good but misguided intentions and many others. This information is something we should leave to the generations that come after us so they can build on it and incorporate new data into it and so they can see that we really tried. Surveyors are charged with keeping a portion of the “doomsday” book of mankind. Many of our mistakes may not show up for a generations. The plans we make are used by those who commissioned us at the time for the purposes intended (serrling an arguement, building an addition, etc.) and that’s it. After that, sometimes for many generations after that, our plans are used by Surveyors and other professionals who follow after us and ultimately judge the quality and accuracy of our work. One surveyor follows in the footsteps in another, so to speak. It’s for this reason that the surveying profession is guided by a strict code of ethics more rigidly enforced then other professions. You will never see a Surveyor on a late night TV commercial hawking their wares and degrading their profession. Believe me, if we did we’d be getting a letter from our State Board in the mail soon thereafter. That kind of behavior is left to the more esteemed professions. Professional integrity is truly the most valuable possession of a Professional Land Surveyor more then any rod or chain, laser or $80,000 piece of GPS equipment.

Tom, I have also begun to digest your posts. Your logic sometimes appears to be inescapable at times and points such as these:

”The West Survey data is the single most factual pieces ('s) of evidence which exist that can prove absolute and intentional deception on the part of the WC.”

are certainly understood and well taken. I wouldn’t be surprised if many others are considering your words too. The United States was extremely lucky to have a man like Mr. West making these surveys. This country needs some luck like that sometimes, these days more then ever. I need more time to reflect on all your points. You putting forward a lot of points that ewquire thought and must be carefully considered. I hope to respond if I have the time and energy. I think my so-called style of writing sometimes ends up sounding nutty or insulting and abrasive. It might be something inherent in my quickly written word. It might just be that I am insulting and abrasive…nah. Nutty? My kids would no doubt agree. But it’s a busy world and if you want to eat you better be busy too. To busy to properly reflect on the information that comes in and way too busy to think about how you sound trying to get the stuff that you want to be heard. I think I am going to be amazed at what you appear to have been able to put together when you decide to let it all out. I suspect this is just the tip of your personal iceberg. You always play your cards so close? Too much work for me. Good luck in all your efforts. Oh, and do you agree with Mr. West about the number of shots, four?

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Frank, I would love to be able to consider your opinion from a professional viewpoint.. However without all plans and fieldwork remaining in private and public hands being digitized (Kinkos scanned 36 x 24”, about 20 bucks) using a high resolution and placed in a public area, i.e. a web page, discussion quickly breaks down. Without the benefit of having numbers of experienced professionals able to examine the plans and field books we are left with amateur speculation. This is not to say over time an amateur cannot become knowledgeable, not at all. But that the average person on the street doesn’t have the time or, my lord, the inclination to do the work and study necessary, then somehow, surround himself with experienced professional people who tutor them for years in the mechanics of the work and help him understand the meaning of it all. However, even then a certain type of person will be able to rise to the professional level, not many in this category. That being said, having a common place to look at the same plan would enable laypeople as well as professionals to communicate and intelligently discuss various features shown on the plans. When I am talking to a customer on the phone about a parcel of land that I’ve recently drawn a plan for, I find that most times, we can’t even understand each other at all unless we both have the same plan in front of us, despite our familiarity with the property. You need to have that picture in front of you before you can make any meaningful comment and the person you’re communicating with needs it in front of them to understand what you are talking about. Another reason to have the plans and fieldwork available for public inspection is it will deter the someone being able to declare what they show or do not show It insures correctness, a type of pubic “peer” review.

Tom, you said “As you have stated, the art is now far advanced with lasers and Global Positioning. But these modern tools are not required for the short distances and angles which Mr. West established throughout Dealy Plaza and in specific the assassination zone.”

I agree and personally I really do prefer a transit and tape myself but, for example, utilizing modern equipment will enable one to directly, physically measure distances which Mr. West was only able to infer by calculation. For example, Mr. West never made a direct measure from his nails marking the point of impact, to the sixth floor window of the Depository. Today it can be done easily, without disturbing anyone in the depository or having to get their permission to enter the building to gather the survey data. This can be done utilizing what’s called “reflectorless technology”. This is just one of the more obvious and least important examples of what a new survey with modern technology can offer. The most important thing is CAD which lets you build a 3-d model of just about anything. The information derived from such a model could put to the test trajectory information and shed light on any other suspected trajectorys. Many other hard held assumptions might have to change overnight. Photos can be inserted into this digital plan and scaled to an almost evidentiary level of accuracy. Many things can be proved as well as disproved from a digitized plan of this type. I can’t emphasize enough how important a modern survey and a digital plan is to this case. Using West’s and other surveyor’s work as a basis for a modern survey is a required first step to creating a digitized version. This “model” thus created can serve as a framework for anyone with the knowledge to use it. This information then could be used by anybody, from anywhere in the world, to either speculate from or end speculation of, once and for all. With a minimum of field work one could expand on this basic digitized plan over time as theories, interests and new information dictate. As a professional, I can’t emphasize enough how important I believe this survey work could be to anyone interested in shedding light on the events of 11/22/63. Whatever their intentions, one of the first things the Warren Commission did was what any inquiry would have to do, they engaged a Surveyor. Therefore one of the first things any professionaly done examination of the WC’s results would include a modern CAD based survey. Photo’s can be doctored, testimony can be changed, character impeached. The physical facts of where the street is/was and is where the buildings are/were, what the elevations are/were. etc., etc. cannot be changed. Only over time can the information gradually slip away. Removal of walkways and fences, new sidewalks and curbs, building demolitions, landscaping, etc. can and will happen. It is important to get this information quickly and placed into a redundant database as well as physically documented before any more changes take place in Dealy Plaza. A survey is the one thing about this case that can’t be faked or altered because the information it contains can always be held up for public scrutiny and can be confirmed if in doubt. So a survey can’t be faked without the facts coming to light, but the facts of a survey can be suppressed either by governments, self-serving individuals, those with good but misguided intentions and many others. This information is something we should leave to the generations that come after us so they can build on it and incorporate new data into it and so they can see that we really tried. Surveyors are charged with keeping a portion of the “doomsday” book of mankind. Many of our mistakes may not show up for a generations. The plans we make are used by those who commissioned us at the time for the purposes intended (serrling an arguement, building an addition, etc.) and that’s it. After that, sometimes for many generations after that, our plans are used by Surveyors and other professionals who follow after us and ultimately judge the quality and accuracy of our work. One surveyor follows in the footsteps in another, so to speak. It’s for this reason that the surveying profession is guided by a strict code of ethics more rigidly enforced then other professions. You will never see a Surveyor on a late night TV commercial hawking their wares and degrading their profession. Believe me, if we did we’d be getting a letter from our State Board in the mail soon thereafter. That kind of behavior is left to the more esteemed professions. Professional integrity is truly the most valuable possession of a Professional Land Surveyor more then any rod or chain, laser or $80,000 piece of GPS equipment.

Tom, I have also begun to digest your posts. Your logic sometimes appears to be inescapable at times and points such as these:

”The West Survey data is the single most factual pieces ('s) of evidence which exist that can prove absolute and intentional deception on the part of the WC.”

are certainly understood and well taken. I wouldn’t be surprised if many others are considering your words too. The United States was extremely lucky to have a man like Mr. West making these surveys. This country needs some luck like that sometimes, these days more then ever. I need more time to reflect on all your points. You putting forward a lot of points that ewquire thought and must be carefully considered. I hope to respond if I have the time and energy. I think my so-called style of writing sometimes ends up sounding nutty or insulting and abrasive. It might be something inherent in my quickly written word. It might just be that I am insulting and abrasive…nah. Nutty? My kids would no doubt agree. But it’s a busy world and if you want to eat you better be busy too. To busy to properly reflect on the information that comes in and way too busy to think about how you sound trying to get the stuff that you want to be heard. I think I am going to be amazed at what you appear to have been able to put together when you decide to let it all out. I suspect this is just the tip of your personal iceberg. You always play your cards so close? Too much work for me. Good luck in all your efforts. Oh, and do you agree with Mr. West about the number of shots, four?

Since my cousin happens to be the County Surveyor for my home county I have often considered enlisting his services as well as his CADS system to produce just as you say.

However, it will prove nothing. Far too many persons chasing rabbits in Alice in Wonderland world to wast time and money on the endeavor.

The only reason that I understand the work of Mr. West and it's significance, as well as how to take information from his Time/Life survey work and thereafter transfer it to the considerablly better scale WC Survey plat is of course due to my own, long ago survey background.

Which of course is why the significance of the altered survey data caught my eye and told me where to begin to look for that information which could ultimately shed some light on the subject.

And, just as I do not tell all at one time, the significance of "Point A" is the fact that the WC had Mr. West begin his survey work there, at that point.

And, Mr. West thereafter took the footage measurements from that point to the various points designated by the WC.

With the result being that these measurements did not correlate to the staioning numbers of the previous SS & FBI work.

However, Mr. West, having already established the contour elevations and distances/station numbers in Dealy Plaza, thereafter converted these distances from "Point A" into what station number it would correlate with on his original survey work.

A point that the WC apparantly did not pick up on in Mr. West Data Block, and a point which ultimate makes it capable to easily do exact correlations between any of the surveys.

As well as Mr. West utilizing the same prior established control points and control stations for the WC work that he had established and utilized in the three prior survey works.

Therefore, all data is entirely compatable as it utilizes the same control stations and elevation control points.

The simple fact is that the survey data merely serves to prove intent on the part of the WC to delete, obscure, and hide information which would serve to provide proof of the third/last/final shot, and that they were fully aware of this information.

Proof of the third shot lies in the witnesses who observed it strike JFK, or at least the position of the Presidential Limo at the time that this shot fired, and the nature of the wound in the neck to head (skull) injury which this shot created to JFK as well as especially the elongated nature of the entry wound through the skull.

The forensic; ballistic; pathological; and physical evidence have always informed what the position of JFK had to be at the time of impact of this shot.

The WC survey merely helped to obscure this, just as did the "lost" position of Mr. Altgens, and the "lost" SS & FBI Surveys from their re-enactments, along with the original deletion of presentation of any frames of the Z-film past Z334.

And of course there is always the "comparison sample" BS as regards the tangential hole through the coat of JFK which is located just at the edge of the coat collar and slightly right of midline.

All neatly hidden away through some manner of misdirection which many would call "sleight-of-hand" and to which I often refer to as "slight"-of -hand since it was significantly lacking in something if I could find it.

But then again, I have not wasted too much time in the Wonderland World of body kidnappers; wound alterers; and/or multiple assassins.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

For some reason, Purvis thinks he is the sole source

for DP plats by Mssrs. West and Breneman.

Jack

Jack;

I could care less as to where you got "your" copy of portions of the West Survey.

However, and as indicated and referenced, this a copy of my work, with the lines drawn in to the impact point of the first shot at approximately Z204/206 as determined by the survey data gained from the Time/Life Survey.

It also contains the line drawn from the sixth floor of the TSDB to the impact point of Z313.

Not unlike the "Marler" information, I shared information with numerous persons, knowning full well that they would not be able to "sit" on it, and that I would thereafter see it again.

So, even with what I have previously informed you, there are still items on the copy which you posted which will, should I so deem, demonstrate quite clearly that the original source of this document is ME, irrelevant as to where you may have obtained it.

That you and a few others have taken factual information (the survey) and drawn in all of your little garbage as regards curb strikes, etc, merely demonstrates exactly how desperate a few of you are to come up with something to support your asinine multiple assassin and body kidnapping scenarios.

The "Original Source" of the drawing which you posted is Mr. West.

The Second Source, is myself.

And, I could care less as to who you may have obtained it from, or when.

If you want me to share with the viewing public additional information which will demonstrate that I am the source, and add to the continuation of making a fool of you, then just say so.

I have already wasted more than adequate time in demonstrating the BS as regards the curb strilkes which you somehow now attribute to Brennan and Mr. West and have drawn in all over the survey plat.

So, since I am the only person out on this limb who has informed everyone that the first line drawn on this survey plat terminates at approximately Z204/206, as determined and plated on the Time/Life Survey of 11/26/63, and thereafter transferred to the survey plats in my possession, why don't you attempt to explain exactly how it is that anyone managed to draw this line on "your copy" of the survey plat when in fact they and you did not even know what it was all about.

Come on Jack! Enquiring minds would certainly appreciate the answer to that one.

Want to hear about the other things on the plat which will provide the tracebility directly back to me Jack?

They are so subtile that neither you nor anyone else is likely to find them, but be my guest.

Jack;

I could care less as to where you got "your" copy of portions of the West Survey.

However, and as indicated and referenced, this a copy of my work, with the lines drawn in to the impact point of the first shot at approximately Z204/206 as determined by the survey data gained from the Time/Life Survey.

It also contains the line drawn from the sixth floor of the TSDB to the impact point of Z313.

However, and as indicated and referenced, this a copy of my work, with the lines drawn in to the impact point of the first shot at approximately Z204/206 as determined by the survey data gained from the Time/Life Survey.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Down here in south MS, we see little that is morally wrong with telling lies to dogs, children, and old fools.

And, since Jack knows so little about the survey work done in Dealy Plaza as well as even the survey plat which he keeps attempting to pass off as having been in his possession for some 20 years, then I see nothing wrong in telling an occassional lie just to see if he even knows enough about anything to catch it.

A "hint" was given when I informed Jack that the first shot impact point, as platted on the survey chart which he displays, terminated at the impact point of Z204/206, as determined from directions and distances from the Time/Life survey work and thereafter transferred to the larger WC Survey Plat.

Now, one should question exactly why then would the second shot impact point be to Z313, since this was an established WC survey point on Elm St.

The answer is that the second line impact the pavement at a point on Elm St. as determined by transfer of the survey data from the Time/Life Survey to the WC survey for this shot as well.

The two lines drawn on this survey plat have absolutely ZERO to do with anything other than the platting/plotting onto the WC Survey plat, that information derived from the Time/Life Survey notes, directions and distances from established control points/stations.

If Jack and anyone else who claims that this drawing is 20+ years old will take the time to look at the impact point on Elm St. for the second shot, as drawn in, they will find that this point impacts Elm St approximately 7 feet prior to the platted Z313 impact point as determined by the WC.

The Z313 impact point was at a street elevation of 418.38 (=/-), whereas the impact point of the impact point on the drawing is farther up Elm St. at an elevation of approximately 418.80, which is the transfered Time/Life impact point.

So there Jack, now in addition to attempting to explain exactly how this crystal ball, some 20 years ago not only platted an impact point which was never known for the first shot fired, now you can explain how it also contains a second impact point that has never been known.

That is of course unless you have the survey notes from the Time/Life Survey of 11/26/63 and can effectively transfer this information to the later, full size copy of the WC survey plat.

To the remainder who are actually searching for the facts and truth without having to make some attempt to interject themselves into the actual events being discussed, please accept my apology for misleading you.

That Jack's memory is apparantly failing and that he does not seem to recall the last time that I informed him that it best for his own reputation to leave the subject matter alone, is his problem.

Here is Z313 & the little point of impact at approximate street elevation 418.80 where the second line drawn on Jack's copy of MY work ended. You can marginally see the "313" on Jacks reduced copy due to the reduction in size, but one can easily see and determine the differences based on the street elevation contour lines.

Also, this one also contains the platted position of James Altgens for those who may have missed it previously.

[John Dolva]

In preparation to looking at the part of the Zfilm covering this third shot here's a panorama.

(the fuzzy people are the ones moving around)

Edited November 1, 2006 by John Dolva

[Thomas H. Purvis]

As usual, excellent work John.

Certainly restores my faith in the long ago decision to shelve the information and wait for the day when it could be adequately distributed.

Your work leaves little for one to have to guess at in regards to Mr. Altgens and the second yellow stripe on the curb of Elm St.

Now, with the stripes being three feet in length, we can check out the placement of Altgens on the fully size WC drawing and no one has to rely on anything that I say, other than the length of the stripe which came from Mr. West Survey notes as well.

Since the photo of Mr. Altgens standing on the curb of Elm St. with his camera in hand appeared in newspapers all over the country a few days after the assassination, one must assume that the SS & FBI had little difficulty (just as you have done) in establishment of the position of Mr. Altgens on Elm St.

And, although there are those here who appear to be somewhat persuaded that the TOTAL omission of Mr. Altgens and obfuscation of his position may be just another of those WC unfortunate omissions, one has only to look at where the WC attempted to place Mr. Altgens to recognize that even a group of politicians and lawyers could not be that stupid.

(see marked position "3""

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol16_0487a.htm

And when Mr. Hudson told them (the WC):

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; so right along about even with these steps, pretty close to even with this here, the last shot was fired - somewhere right along in there.

Mr. HUDSON - Well, I was standing on those steps that came straight down to Elm there, just above that triple underpass, I was about halfway between the tripple underpass and Houston, where the steps are - somewhere near about halfway.

Mr. LIEBELER - Where are the steps?

Mr. HUDSON - Here they are - right there.

Mr. LIEBELER - It is the series of steps that runs right down the street there?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER - Can you show me just where you were standing?

Mr. HUDSON - Well, I was right along - you see, the steps come down the steps for a way and then there is a broad place, oh, I'll say a little wider than this table here on the steps and then some steps and I was standing on this - that would be somewhere around along about there. Mr. LIEBELER - Let me just mark on that picture the place where you were standing so that we can have that.

Mr. HUDSON - Right along about there.

Mr. LIEBELER - It was right here where I have placed this "X", is that correct?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; right along in there.

Mr. LIEBELER - So, you were standing about where I placed the "X" on photograph No. 18 of Commission Exhibit No. 875. Tell me what you saw - tell me what happened to the best of your recollection.

Mr. LIEBELER - You say that it was the second shot that hit him in the head; is that right?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; I do believe that - I know it was.

Mr. LIEBELER - You saw him hit in the head, there wasn't any question in your mind about that, was there?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - And after you saw him hit in the head, did you here another shot?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - You say it was the second shot that hit him in the head?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes

Mr. HUDSON - Not in particular, I didn't. It was such an exciting time - now - I did notice a man back over here on this triangle.

Mr. LIEBELER - Standing across Elm Street?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - With a motion picture camera?

Mr. HUDSON - Well he had a camera - I don't know whether it was a motion picture camera or not, but he had a camera.

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; those steps are right along there between that concrete - the end of that concrete wall right there and that elm tree come between them - no, not an elm but that's a live oak tree - that's a live oak tree right there.

Mr. LIEBELER - Can you see yourself in that picture anywhere, can you mak yourself out?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir; I can't , unless it is one of these two men right here - I can't tell - if I had that picture that was taken in the Times Herald paper - I can show you myself in it.

Mr. LIEBELER - Which one is that?

Mr. HUDSON - Well, it was in the Times Herald paper the next morning after, I believe, after the assassination, maybe the evening after the assassination.

Mr. LIEBELER - Look at this picture.

Mr. LIEBELER - I have shown you Commission Exhibit No. 203 and you are not able to point to yourself in that picture at any place. Actually, Commission Exhibit No, 203 shows a different area.

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir

Mr. LIEBELER - But you are quite sure in your own mind that the shots came from the rear of the President's car and above it; is that correct?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did the Secret Service talk to you, or the Dallas Police Department or the FBI?

Mr. HUDSON - The FBI and I made a deposition over at the courthouse - the same day that the assassination was.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk..._Vol7_0283b.htm

The Testimony of Emmett Hudson was taken on July 22, 1964.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Which really does not mean much to most.

However, when one takes into consideration the fact that Mr. Hudon's position on the steps was surveyed in by Robert West during the WC survey work of May 1964, then Mr. Hudson's attempt to describe his position takes on an entirely different meaning. Not unlike the attempt by Mr. Altgens.

Mr. West was totally unaware of why he was informed to survey in Point "A" (Pt A) on the steps which lead down to Elm St.

Nevertheless, he did as told.

I have taken the liberty to transfer from the Survey notes of Mr. West, "Pt A" , and thereafter place it onto the full size copy of the survey plat.

So, not unlike the position of Mr. Altgens, and a few others, there was especially no difficulty in establishment of the point at where Mr. Hudson was standing on the steps, since the WC had Mr. West survey it in for them during the May 24th WC re-enactment of the position.

As creatures of habit, we create patterns of behavior, which, whether good or bad, often point out our fallacies to others who carefully observe and evaluate the full realm of these patterns of behavior.

So much for philosophy!

At least we are beginning to get somewhere in regards to exactly where James Altgens and Emmett Hudson were standing, if nothing else.

P.S. John, since you have such great interest in Mr. Holmes, a review of his testimony in light of this, just may also be in order. Especially since he too was one of those persons that the WC avoided questioning until the absolute last minute, and even then, only by Mr. Liebeler.

I do believe that there were three members of the WC who would have been highly interested in the testimony of James Altgens; Emmett Hudson; and Harry Holmes, had they had the opportunity to sit in on the questioning.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_i...sue/fetzer.html

4) Chuck Marler's study of "the Warren Commission's use of phoney numbers that were changed from those established by the original surveyors of Dealey Plaza."

Although there can be little doubt that Chuck "studied" it, after I gave it to him, this does not mean that he understood the significance of it.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Now that those horses have been either ridden or beaten to death, we can get on with the search for the real "Magic" bullet.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/simmons.htm

Mr. SIMMONS. Yes; we did. We placed three targets, which were head and shoulder silhouettes, at distances of 175 feet, 240 feet, and 265 feet, and these distances are slant ranges from the window ledge of a tower which is about 30 feet high.

Mr. SIMMONS. The marksmen were instructed to take as much time as they desired at the first target, and then to fire--at the first target, being at 175 feet--to then fire at the target emplaced at 240 feet, and then at the one at 265 feet.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you state where you derived these distances?

Mr. SIMMONS. These distances were the values given on the survey map which were given to us.

Mr. EISENBERG. Are you sure they were not the values I gave to you myself?

Mr. SIMMONS. I stand corrected. These are values--we were informed that the numbers on the survey map were possibly in error. The distances are very close, however.

Whoa Nellie!

As regards the last shot, it would be my hope that anyone who takes the time to review this information would see the considerable discrepency between a distance of 294 feet (slant distance to impact in front of James Altgens) and the 265 feet distance which Eisenberg gave to Ronald Simmons.

Not to mention the fact that the 265 feet (actually 267 feet on the SS Survey Plat) is the slant distance to the impact point of Z313, which the FBI revised survey (CE585) does not show.

While everyone was watching, Mr. Eisenberg just made Z313 with the 265 feet slant distance the last shot fired in the assassination, and completely deleted the Altgens impact shot which had a slant distance of 294 feet.

Kinda like "magic" there, making things just suddenly disappear right before your eyes.

Not to mention providing us with a reduced copy of the FBI revised drawing which still demonstrates the Altgens shot impact point, yet the copy of the survey is so reduced that no one can ever tell it.

What a sneaky, sneaky trick!

I do believe that we have a "magic shot" as well as a "magic bullet", as they have now both disappeared from record.

[John Dolva]

the necessary movie file is too big to post and the image host converts it into a flash so until I work out a fix in the meantime here's a gif which shows a little bit of what can be known. The patch on the street helps to locate the sequence.

(gif)

(sorry even the gif is too big) I'll work something out, in the meantime:

# Hill attempts to leap onto the car, stumbles and instead oftrying to grip the spare tyre thingy goes for the hand hold. In doing so his hand sweeps a bit forward and this is about when Jackie starts to rise. There's a faintly seen brownish spot that Hill appears to have knocked forward from behind the tyre and this is about the spot that Jackie ends out reaching for. It's impossible to say she is picking something up.

# Jackie:: Before rising or starting to rise her left hand is behind Kennedy's neck. When her left hand leaves the neck and she starts to reach over the hood, her right hand goes behind Kennedys head and pushes it forward.

# When she starts to rise she also pushes Kennedy slightly more upright. He then doesn't slump back very much which seems to indicate that his brace is actually supporting his trunk in an upright position.

# At no time can I see any sign of Kennedy being hit. At normal speed there are at a couple of points a blur that could be mistaken for something.

If he is hit, it would seem to me to have to be just at that moment when Jackies hands are changing position and this is in front of Altgens.

# Looking at Connally at this time: Nelly pulls him down and cowers down herself. They almost disappear behind foliage.

# There are two almost stationary men, which seems curious, but they appear for only a short time and the little boy is almost stationary too.

I'll continue to look at it.

Tom, what is the primary reason for thinking Kennedy is hit a third time here? I guess one can say the primary reason for thinking he was hit at z312-3 is simply it is clearly seen in the zfilm. What about this third shot? I mean right at the start in those early days, what drew attention to that particular moment?

________________

EDIT:: here it is zipped mpg01 hopefully in a correct codec. A viewer like InterVideo allows varying frame rate, zooming, pan and stepping, to look at the various parts of the movie.

EDIT2:: name corection

Edited November 2, 2006 by John Dolva