The Death of John Kennedy Jr.

[Randy Downs]

As for the deaths of Gary Webb, and of JFK Jr.; having read what i can find about each of those, i'm curious as to what people here believe. That Webb was a suicide? That JFK jr. was an accident?

Regards,

Randy

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Randy, dont know about Gary Webb, although his family are convinced that he commited suicide,FWIW. But why would anyone wany JR dead, did he have any political ambitions? last I heard he was editing a magazine.

[Pamela Brown]

[...]. But why would anyone wany JR dead, did he have any political ambitions? last I heard he was editing a magazine.

It is possible that the magazine George was a vehicle for JFK Jr. to address controversial issues. One interview that sticks in my mind is that with the mother of the assassin of Itzak Rabin. This caused Leah Rabin, the widow, considerable distress. It seemed to me to be a rather courageous thing.

It is my personal belief that Jackie always held onto the dream that JFK Jr. would inherit the mantle of his father and become President. So, at least, as long as she was alive, he was probably being groomed to that end.

[Myra Bronstein]

As for the deaths of Gary Webb, and of JFK jr.; having read what i can find about each of those, i'm curious as to what people here believe. That Webb was a suicide? That JFK jr. was an accident?

Regards,

Randy

I'm certain JFK Jr was murdered. The reason? Hell, he was unstopable; he was a prince.

He was the son of the beloved martyred President Kennedy and beloved classy Jackie, so he had the pedegree. Everyone who wasn't pure evil (i.e., the vipers who killed his father) loved him. He was glamorous, better looking than any movie star, had a gorgeous wife, but he was still a regular guy. A nice normal regular guy, who didn't seem to think he was better than others; he wasn't remote and standoffish. He was incredibly polite, to even the rudest reporters, even though he was stalked relentlessly by the press. He was intelligent and likable.

I've consistently read that he was about to announce he was going into politics. If he ran there would have been no stopping him, he would have beaten anybody. And he would have gotten all the way to the top if he wanted. Also, like his Uncle Bobby, if he was in a position to investigate his father's murder he would have. I believe he'd said he didn't believe the WC crap.

Oh yeah, he was murdered. The circumstances of the day his plane disappeared were totally suspicious. An obvious cover up was taking place; reports changed and contradicted previous ones by the hour.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

As for the deaths of Gary Webb, and of JFK jr.; having read what i can find about each of those, i'm curious as to what people here believe. That Webb was a suicide? That JFK jr. was an accident?

Regards,

Randy

I'm certain JFK Jr was murdered. The reason? Hell, he was unstopable; he was a prince.

He was the son of the beloved martyred President Kennedy and beloved classy Jackie, so he had the pedegree. Everyone who wasn't pure evil (i.e., the vipers who killed his father) loved him. He was glamorous, better looking than any movie star, had a gorgeous wife, but he was still a regular guy. A nice normal regular guy, who didn't seem to think he was better than others; he wasn't remote and standoffish. He was incredibly polite, to even the rudest reporters, even though he was stalked relentlessly by the press. He was intelligent and likable.

I've consistently read that he was about to announce he was going into politics. If he ran there would have been no stopping him, he would have beaten anybody. And he would have gotten all the way to the top if he wanted. Also, like his Uncle Bobby, if he was in a position to investigate his father's murder he would have. I believe he'd said he didn't believe the WC crap.

Oh yeah, he was murdered. The circumstances of the day his plane disappeared were totally suspicious. An obvious cover up was taking place; reports changed and contradicted previous ones by the hour.

Myra, hogwash, So he was murdered because he was good looking? because he MIGHT have gone into politics?because if he HAD have stood for election, and later become the President he MIGHT have reinvestigated his fathers murder? has it occured to you that the reason reports of accidents change is because the quality of evidence changes with time, and investigation?and talking of evidence, have you any to produce, or perhaps you agree with Tom Flocco who claims the Bush's were seen tampering with the aircraft just before John-John took off. (please file under paranoid fantasy)This sort of stuff simply lets the media portray ALL possible conspiracies as the work of mentally unbalanced individuals..

[Randy Downs]

Stephan,

No actualy Myra does make a very good point. Here in the U.S., JFK Jr. was the closest thing we had as an "heir apparant to the throne". #2, i doubt the power structure would wait until he threw his hat in the ring, then have him whacked 'cause that's just too obvious. Anybody who's been a part of or studied Spook-world, will tell you: eliminate the threat before it becomes a threat.

And finaly, yes i do have accounts that contradict the official/accepted story for both Gary Webb and JFK Jr. That's kind of why i asked the question in the first place.

Especialy Webb, after what he did to the power structure?! He dragged one of the darkest ugliest secrets of our time into the light.

Anyway, here's a couple of articles for you:

"Part 5: The crash of John F. Kennedy Jr's aircraft and the indications of a cover-up.

Having established that the government and the media have a prior (and quite deplorable) record of deliberate lies to the public, let us look at how the official story of the crash of John F. Kennedy Jr's plane evolved, and why it is suspect.

As first reported by United Press International <upi.html>, John F. Kennedy Jr. on approach to Martha's Vineyard in 8 mile visibility, was in radio contact with the ground, calmly informing them of his intentions to drop off a passenger before proceeding to Hyannis airport. Then, according to ABC News, JFK Jr's plane went into a steep dive, and crashed.

However, even before the wreckage was found, the story being put out in the media began to change. Gone was the previously reported radio conversation a calm JFK Jr. had with ground personnel just before the plane fell out of the sky, replaced by a declaration from the NTSB that JFK Jr. had not used his radio at all as he approached Martha's Vineyard. Gone also was the originally reported 8 mile visibility while the media began to hammer home the claim that Martha's Vineyard had been totally blanketed with a haze so heavy that pilots in the air would have been blind.

No sooner were the various stories put out but they quickly fell apart.

Here are some examples.

PROPAGANDA: JFK Jr. was lost.

FACT: When JFK Jr. radioed controllers on the Cape (as reported on Boston TV News) to announce his approach to Martha's Vineyard, radar showed him to be just where he stated he was and at the correct altitude for the approach.

PROPAGANDA: JK Jr. was in "over his head".

FACT: JFK Jr's conversational tone on the radio reveals that he was calm. He was not disoriented. He didn't ask for directions. He didn't indicate he had any problem at all. He clearly was confident he was going to find the airport and land.

PROPAGANDA: JFK Jr. stalled the plane.

FACT: The radar track shows that he was well above stall speed.

PROPAGANDA: JFK Jr. went into a steep turn and lost hi horizon.

FACT: There is no reason for JFK Jr. to have been in any turn at all at that point on the flight path leading into the airport. He was already lined up with the main runway at Martha's Vineyard airport. <airport.jpg>

PROPAGANDA: JFK Jr. didn't know his altitude and simply "flew into the ocean".

FACT: The radar track shows him flying at the proper altitude, then (as ABC News put it) "falling out of the sky".

PROPAGANDA: JFK Jr. lost his instruments, and that is why he could not handle the dark and hazy (?) conditions

FACT: The fact that the radar was getting good data from his encoding altimeter proves his instruments were operating.

PROPAGANDA: JFK Jr. would have lost his artificial horizon if the vacuum pump failed in the aircraft.

FACT: MSNBC is the only media outlet to have tried to hype this one, using a self-proclaimed "aviation expert". His claim is also false, as there is a backup vacuum system in the pitot assembly of that aircraft.

PROPAGANDA JFK Jr. was a reckless pilot.

FACT: This claim was planted everywhere in the media, always attributed to an "unnamed source". One reporter, Cindy Adams at the New York Post, later had cause to suspect she had been lied to. <phonyphone.html> So did Andrew Goldman <goldman.html> at the New York Observer. Interviews with individuals directly familier with JFK Jr's flying ability shown on Inside Edition confirmed that he was a highly skilled and careful pilot.

PROPAGANDA JFK Jr's wife was afraid to fly with him.

FACT: Again a story attributed to "unnamed sources", and again debunked by the interviews shown on Inside Edition. JFK Jr's wife had no problem flying with JFK Jr. and flew with him often.

PROPAGANDA JFK Jr. had only 40 hours experience.

FACT: He had 40 hours in that one aircraft. His total experience was about 300 hours, more than enough to qualify him for a commercial pilot's license. According to FAA statistics, 300 hours made him a more careful and safer pilot than one with 1000 hours, who is more complacent.

PROPAGANDA The weather was very hazy.

FACT: The FAA issued VFR weather conditions that night, and the weather report (mentioned in the UPI story <upi.html>) called for 8 mile visibility. One witness on shore reported that there was very little haze <hazy.html> and that standing on the shore, he could see airplanes out over the ocean on approach to the island, proof that airplanes on the approach could see the shore. This claim is backed up not only by the weather report of 8 mile visibility, but by a weather radar image <JFK-0340Z.gif> taken at about the time of the crash. This radar image is showing haze and fog along New York and Long Island (if this radar image were of clouds, the FAA would not have declared VFR flying conditions that night) but none at all at Martha's Vineyard. ON the morning after the crash, CNN reported that weather could be ruled out as a factor in the crash!"

And a 2nd article:

"FOOTNOTE: The July 26th, 1999 issue of Newsweek.

Just days prior to his death, NBC Dateline hinted that JFK Jr. was considering an entry into politics, and mentioned that a story to that effect was to be published in the July 26th, 1999 issue of NEWSWEEK.

NEWSWEEK recalled that issue from the distrubutors, and had them destroyed. CNN ran a story claiming that NEWSWEEK planned to change covers and re-distribute, but that never happened. The NEWSWEEK issue dealing with JFK Jr. is dated August 2nd. The July 26th 1999 issue of NEWSWEEK simply vanished."

It gets better:

"Aug. 5, 1999 I just phoned the Martha's Vineyard Gazette and spoke with a woman there. I asked her about the statement -- in the July 17th United Press International report of the John F. Kennedy Jr. plane crash http://www.upi.com/corp/news/jfkjr3.html -- that a reporter for the Martha's Vineyard Gazette had witnessed an explosion in the sky around the time of the crash. She replied, "Oh, that story was completely bogus. What really happened was that someone was shooting off fireworks on Falmouth." "Falmouth?" I said, "Is that an island?" "Falmouth," she said, "is the closest point to Martha's Vineyard." I said, "But this reporter witnessed an explosion in the SKY." She countered, "Well, they were shooting rockets up in the air, or something like that." Fearing that she might hang up if I continued to contradict her, I asked, "May I speak with the reporter who witnessed this?" "Oh, no," she replied nervously, "we can't do that." I said, "Oh, that's strange. What could be the problem with speaking to a reporter?" She repeated, "We can't permit that." I said, "Okay, can you at least give me his name?" "No, we can't do that, either," she persisted." Then she added, "He no longer works for us,"

The UPI quote (of his statement that he saw a "big white flash" in the sky off Philbin Beach at about the time of the crash) was expunged from ALL subsequent news reports from ALL news outlets."

Why this person called the Vineyard Gazette:

"A reporter for the Vineyard Gazette newspaper told WCVB-TV in Boston

that he was out walking Friday night about the time of the crash and saw

"big white flash in the sky" off Philbin Beach."

A personal note: I'm very methodical (meticulous) about my data-mining, but sometimes not as much about my record keeping. So before anyone rags on me about this, no i don't remember the sites from whence i copied the above articles. What can i say, i messed up. The first-person account dated Aug 5 '99 is from an email/post by a Mr. John DiNardo.

Randy

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Randy, you are forgiven for forgetting the provenance of you articles, I do it all the time. as I indicated in my first post, I have no idea whether Gary Webb was murdered or not, just that his family believe that he commited suicide.

As regards JFK jr, I will study your reply in depth before I attempt a responce. One thing however, do you have any hard evidence that he was considering a move into politics? regards, Steve.

[Steve Ulman]

Randy -

Some of the "Facts" listed in your previuos post aregarding the JFK Jr. crash aren't really facts.

From the NTSB Official Report.

About 7 miles from the approaching shore, the airplane began a right turn. The airplane stopped its descent at 2,200 feet, then climbed back to 2,600 feet and entered a left turn. While in the left turn, the airplane began another descent that reached about 900 fpm. While still in the descent, the airplane entered a right turn. During this turn, the airplane's rate of descent and airspeed increased. The airplane's rate of descent eventually exceeded 4,700 fpm, and the airplane struck the water in a nose-down attitude.

The airplane did not just fall out of the sky.

Airports along the coast reported visibilities between 5 and 8 miles. Other pilots flying similar routes on the night of the accident reported no visual horizon while flying over the water because of haze.

{bolding mine}

According to AC 60-4A, "Pilot's Spatial Disorientation," tests conducted with qualified instrument pilots indicated that it can take as long as 35 seconds to establish full control by instruments after a loss of visual reference of the earth's surface. AC 60-4A further states that surface references and the natural horizon may become obscured even though visibility may be above VFR minimums and that an inability to perceive the natural horizon or surface references is common during flights over water, at night, in sparsely populated areas, and in low-visibility conditions.

{bolding mine}

JFK Jr. was not IFR qualified.

Unfortunately, like the majority of general aviation crashes, pilot error seems to have been the cause.

IIRC - As for his plans to run for elected office, there is no consensus, some close to him have stated that he had told them that he thought he might get into politics in the future, others state that he had told them that he had no interest in public office. However, all seem to agree that he truly enjoyed publishing George and intended to keep doing it.

Edited October 26, 2006 by Steve Ulman

[Guest John Gillespie]

Myra, hogwash, So he was murdered because he was good looking? because he MIGHT have gone into politics?because if he HAD have stood for election, and later become the President he MIGHT have reinvestigated his fathers murder? has it occured to you that the reason reports of accidents change is because the quality of evidence changes with time, and investigation?and talking of evidence, have you any to produce, or perhaps you agree with Tom Flocco who claims the Bush's were seen tampering with the aircraft just before John-John took off. (please file under paranoid fantasy)This sort of stuff simply lets the media portray ALL possible conspiracies as the work of mentally unbalanced individuals..

________________________

Took the words right off my keyboard, Stephen. Those kind of postings do not help and, in fact, are beloved by perpertrators (if in fact there are such people in this case). They are base upon nothing but emotion and ignorance. That said, I am glad this topic was started but if these initial offerings are indicators I will not hold my breath waiting for something cogent.

Yours Truly,

JG

[Len Colby]

I like the theory posted here by Jack that the Clintons (Bill and Hillary), Michael Harari and the Bushes (Sr. & Jr.) conspired to kill John-John and that the later three were seen tampering with his plane the day before the crash. I already said what I had to say on the subject on that thread. No one really had motive to off him.

Len

[John Simkin]

The Gary Webb case has been discussed on two previous threads:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=2554

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=8168

I will therefore change the thread topic to the death of JFK Jr.

See also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy,_Jr.

[Jack White]

I like the theory posted here by Jack that the Clintons (Bill and Hillary), Michael Harari and the Bushes (Sr. & Jr.) conspired to kill John-John and that the later three were seen tampering with his plane the day before the crash. I already said what I had to say on the subject on that thread. No one really had motive to off him.

Len

xxxx! I have never mentioned the Clintons in relation to JohnJohn. I have

no idea who Harari is.

I believe the Bushes or supporters were afraid of his potential, and got

him well before he could pose a threat. They would never plant the bomb

themselves; they have others do their dirty work.

Jack

Edited October 27, 2006 by Jack White

[Len Colby]

I like the theory posted here by Jack that the Clintons (Bill and Hillary), Michael Harari and the Bushes (Sr. & Jr.) conspired to kill John-John and that the later three were seen tampering with his plane the day before the crash. I already said what I had to say on the subject on that thread. No one really had motive to off him.

Len

xxxx! I have never mentioned the Clintons in relation to JohnJohn. I have

no idea who Harari is.

I believe the Bushes or supporters were afraid of his potential, and got

him well before he could pose a threat. They would never plant the bomb

themselves; they have others do their dirty work.

Jack

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...974&hl=john

[Randy Downs]

Okay everyone, the only thing i said in the beginning was, i don't believe the official story of "accident". That's like saying senators and light aircraft go well together.

I never said anything about enterting the political arena. I know many of the American public would have liked to see that happen. You have the story of the Newsweek issue that was recalled and destroyed. Do what you want with it.

In seeing the family's different actions with the death of Jackie, and Jr., i understand my friend's initial point; and i happen to agree with it.

You have an eyewitness report from a news reporter who phoned in to a Boston TV station; you also have a report by someone who tried to follow up on that, and couldn't even get the reporter's name from his own paper. Do what you want with that.

I am not going to engage in a dueling report debate. The NTSB can say whatever the frell it wants to after the fact. As opposed to the eyewitness and/or news reports at the time. I'm quite sure the NTSB never "finds anything wrong" when light aircraft carrying important political or social figures (who coincidently actively or on record oppose the the power structure) flies into a mountain or an ocean. 'Cause they're completely trustworthy (KAL 007, and the other passenger jets shot out of the sky).

Steve, i remember that day very well and "fell out of the sky" is exactly the phrase that was being used.

Stephen, thanks for the politeness in your response. There is a real paucity of information about JFK Jrs death; i'm not sure what his future plans were, he may not have been sure about what he wanted to do in the future. Many people wanted to see him do different things and i think they projected that onto him in some degree. Let's stand the question upside down: if the son of JFK was elected president, do you think he'd survive for 4 years?

On a personal note: i thought this was more "acadameia" than "chat room"; i have an idea so i look for serious other ideas from intelligent persons. You don't have to agree with it or like it, but the mockery and the faint hostility that i see displayed, is so high school. Are some of you really so threatened by another person's thought? That's just sad.

Randy

[Steve Ulman]

Randy-

I hate to be the one to tell you this, but you'll never get to the truth unless you do the research. Read up on "Pilot's Spatial Disorientation" - its a real phenomena, and can affect any pilot, regardless of experience. If you are going to dismiss it as a significant factor in the crash, at least study it and understand what you are discussing.

I am not going to engage in a dueling report debate. The NTSB can say whatever the frell it wants to after the fact. As opposed to the eyewitness and/or news reports at the time. I'm quite sure the NTSB never "finds anything wrong" when light aircraft carrying important political or social figures (who coincidently actively or on record oppose the the power structure) flies into a mountain or an ocean. 'Cause they're completely trustworthy (KAL 007, and the other passenger jets shot out of the sky).

Steve, i remember that day very well and "fell out of the sky" is exactly the phrase that was being used.

Accepting as the true and authoritative fact the things reporters say on the day of an incident, when they have no real facts themselves, and then rejecting out of hand a long term - extensive expert review of available facts, shows me that you have no interest in finding out the truth about what really happened.

In my opinion, you started this thread already convinced that JFK Jr. was murdered, and wanted confirmation. Sorry that you are now upset that some of us don’t agree with you and won’t simply reinforce your views.

Also - What point were you trying to make about KAL-007?