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Amazing coincidence on possible trajectory


Lee Forman
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This is just a thought.

If you had genuine shooters in the TSBD, but a Patsy as a decoy on a different floor, firing loudly and drawing attention to himself with a gun sticking out the window, why wouldn't you have a similar set-up elsewhere? I think you'd have something like a cookie-cutter for the ops that may have been lying in wait at the Trademart and Love Field. Luis Castillo may well have been one of the planned patsies - who knows.

In any event, I find it remarkable to consider that the man on the stairs appears to have the precisely same trajectory as the man behind the fence, as seen in the Moorman polaroid. Is one firing blanks? Do they both walk away thinking that they were the one responsible for the headshot? Is one a total dupe? Is the man on the stairs prepared with some type of background and Oswald connection ready?

Yep. Could be all wet. Just strikes me as peculiar. I can imagine allowing this guy to continue to be used for future ops - under the distinct impression that it was his bullet that was responsible for the killshot, when in reality, he was handed a starter pistol.

Somehow then this whole thing would have gotten shuffled under the rug as the Oswald machine was being constructed. And some of the folks standing opposite never come forward, or are never identified. I guess we have to assume that the FBI never managed to figure out who this young couple was.

- lee

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Neat!

C.I.A. single-shot gun-camera (1966)

The Stinger is a single-shot re-loadable .22 magnum pen-gun, perhaps the single most popular weapon of the C.I.A. In 1966 the Stinger has been "swallowed" by an Asahi Pentax 35mm SLR and properly cocked via camera’s film advance lever. It shot by shutter release button breaking the lens elements in front of it. photo: CIA website

Can't help wonder about that also.

Edited by Lee Forman
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Neat!

C.I.A. single-shot gun-camera (1966)

The Stinger is a single-shot re-loadable .22 magnum pen-gun, perhaps the single most popular weapon of the C.I.A. In 1966 the Stinger has been "swallowed" by an Asahi Pentax 35mm SLR and properly cocked via camera’s film advance lever. It shot by shutter release button breaking the lens elements in front of it. photo: CIA website

Can't help wonder about that also.

Beats my Nikon by a mile......for sleaze! What year was this 'invented'?

The one at left says 1966 - however, I found a number of toys that were released the same year - so I am thinking that there would have been something like this in 1963. I can't find a date for the one on the right.

I used to think the item held by the man on the stairs was an automatic, then I thought it was a camera - I think it may have been some type of covert weapon. Why would anyone with something that resembled a gun be out in plain sight like that? Plus, everyone chasing after umbrella covert technology, etc., led me to look for such a weapon a long time ago. I never found much - however, I think it's a pretty good combination. No one is going to comment on a camera pointed at the President either.

I had one last thought - and it's that perhaps both of these individuals [man on steps and man behind fence] fired. The guy on the stairs could well have been a .22, which would explain that one FBI document and the .22 lodged behind Kennedy's ear.

Anyway - that last piece was that bit I posted here someplace. Thomas? Can't remember. The man on the Press bus that said he saw a man running up the stairs - ducking as if he was under fire, carrying a camera the like of which he had never seen before. An odd comment for someone from the press. I may have to search for that remark - I'm sure I posted it someplace.

got it...the three wheeler remark doesn't seem to jive. Hmmm...

White House correspondent Charles Roberts account of the assassination from the Press Bus.

QUOTE

"At about that time, give or take two seconds, the motorcade, which most newsmen estimated had been moving at about 20 miles an hour, ground to an uncertain halt....

'What's going on?' screamed someone from the back of the bus. At that moment I saw a man I believed to be a photographer - but don't ask me what kind of camera he carried - struggling up a grassy embankment ahead and to the right of the President's car, ducking his head as if under fire. He was pursued - or, at any rate, followed - by a motorcyle policeman who rammed his three-wheeled machine over a curb and, as it righted itself, pulled a pistol for [sic] his holster...."

- lee

Edited by Lee Forman
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Just rewatching TMWKK - Tom Wilson basically circles the man on the stairs and essentially relates that the shot would have had to have come from this area - then, after all of his work on the photos, turns to some method that produces something that points him to the storm drain.

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Neat!

C.I.A. single-shot gun-camera (1966)

The Stinger is a single-shot re-loadable .22 magnum pen-gun, perhaps the single most popular weapon of the C.I.A. In 1966 the Stinger has been "swallowed" by an Asahi Pentax 35mm SLR and properly cocked via camera’s film advance lever. It shot by shutter release button breaking the lens elements in front of it. photo: CIA website

Can't help wonder about that also.

Interesting to ponder.....and as there were men posing as agents confiscating cameras, it would be easy to relieve the shooter of such a weapon of the item and who would think to do a nitrate test of the face or hands of a cameraman?......real 'James Bond' stuff. In any case such a weapon would not have too much power, I'd guess, but could make a nice neck wound, for example. But when one thinks of how many cameras are at any such event - then or now...... Now I know why at the airport they used to take all the lenses off my camera and look!...[this in the days when there was carry-on luggage].....and before the Unpatriot Act. Lee, where does that composite of the guy on the stairs come from?

Someone helped me to put it together. It would be great if I could get feedback on it from the young couple standing opposite, 'SOB' man, Mary Moorman, etc. Somehow I can't help but think maybe someone who has been holding back may be watching and will suddenly chime in - or at least email me. :lol:

- lee

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Mr. AULT advised that he did not look toward the Texas School Book Depository at the time of the firing of the three shots and immediately thereafter because his attention was directed toward a policeman who got off his three-wheeler on Elm Street and ran toward a hedge to the left of the cement pavilion which is immediately north of Elm Street.

Weird.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Mr. AULT advised that he did not look toward the Texas School Book Depository at the time of the firing of the three shots and immediately thereafter because his attention was directed toward a policeman who got off his three-wheeler on Elm Street and ran toward a hedge to the left of the cement pavilion which is immediately north of Elm Street.

Weird.

why overcomplicate it-guys with the right creds and long guns could easily just disappear-all these super clandestine guns are difficult to use and impossible to explain away if dsicovered. A good bolt gun with a scope in the hands of some one in plain clothes or uniform could be explained away as part of security and then casually escape. Officialdom is still not exercised about people with secret service creds on the knoll.

ear and eye witnesses are often problimatical AND remember this was preWatergate-we were for the most part political virgins.

Edited by Evan Marshall
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Mr. AULT advised that he did not look toward the Texas School Book Depository at the time of the firing of the three shots and immediately thereafter because his attention was directed toward a policeman who got off his three-wheeler on Elm Street and ran toward a hedge to the left of the cement pavilion which is immediately north of Elm Street.

Weird.

why overcomplicate it-guys with the right creds and long guns could easily just disappear-all these super clandestine guns are difficult to use and impossible to explain away if dsicovered. A good bolt gun with a scope in the hands of some one in plain clothes or uniform could be explained away as part of security and then casually escape. Officialdom is still not exercised about people with secret service creds on the knoll.

ear and eye witnesses are often problimatical AND remember this was preWatergate-we were for the most part political virgins.

Hello Evan.

Actually, I see it as being more complicated myself - the way in which these folks tended to operate was with insurance - I don't think you could even get to the table without an ante - which was that someone had something on you, or that you were dropped without knowing the actual target. In which case, having two shooters along the same trajectory around the time of the headshot is odd. Going with a Patsy in the TSBD, with a real shooter or shooters makes me wonder if there wasn't a similar set-up going on at the knoll. It's my impression that there were a xxxxload of Patsies - some just weren't needed. Luis Castillo for example - who would have been part of a separate op closer to the DalTex in the event of an abort in Dealey. Worth noting is that this man on the stairs does not 'officially' exist. I don't think you'll find many takers here. Also worth noting is someone I bumped into that told me a lot about having seen the man on the stairs - but I don't know if the information is credible, so I never posted all of it [and don't really plan to at anytime in the near future - even though oddly enough, it provides some bizarre information concerning the possible explanation on the pool of blood in that area]. The camera thing was only my way of trying to make sense of it - it's hard to imagine someone taking a headshot from this location in plain sight - however, this is also a possibility. I do not believe that this man was 'added' after-the-fact - I do believe that he was concealed however, in further generations of the Moorman polaroid and the other films and photos. Just my opinion. Further, that after taking his shot [which for all I know may have been a blank, however there remains the mystery of the .45 caliber round that was allegedly recovered, as well as the information provided by Sam Pate], as the story goes, he left immediately. It became necessary to provide a bogus character on the stairs to take his place IMO. Emmett Hudson's testimony fails to support the Moorman photo, IMO, with the addition of this third man on the stairs. The whole bogus set-up of Sirhan Sirhan is a facinating event that I was thinking could have some play here. The odds seem to favor a shot from the front - for all anyone knows, this may have been a secondary or fallback position. There is also the odd remarks made by Kerry Thornley, in which his Nazi 'Borther-in-Law' speaks of setting up the assassination in such a way that numerous groups are present, working together but distinctly, so that they all go away thinking that they were successful, or that they were the ones responsible. An interesting concept.

On the man on the stairs - if I had a decent view of him, I believe it would be at least possible to consider identification.

Anyway - the fake camera bit was my own stupid idea based upon a few sources - I read about an individual that used to carry one that was involved in black ops - no clue if he was there or not. Then the remark made by the man on the Press Bus, plus the fact that the witnesses opposite never said anything [not directly anyway] about having seen a man with a gun. Of course, there are 5 witnesses across the street that have never been identified. Additionally, there is the young man that stood with Hudson who has never been identified either. Simply more interesting coincidences - like the >20+ black people that have never identified that stood across the street from the North peristyle.

Someone asked me once - With an operation like this, do you supppose it's possible that some of the eye and ear witnesses were plants? I don't know the answer, but it would be interesting to find out why all those folks got to stand on the south side of Elm, when Jean Hill and Mary Moorman had to get special permission - since they knew cops. Always good to know a cop.

- lee

Edited by Lee Forman
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