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Did Oswald murder Tippit.


Guest Stephen Turner

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Duke

Just curious, what made the ALT a "safe house" other than that, if anybody was hiding in it, they weren't found?

Greg

The ALT "was part of a network run by H. L. Hunt, Carl McIntire and Billy James Hargis - called the American Council of Christian Churches, a right-wing organization that involved itself politically with many Cold War efforts, including the struggle to free Cuba. . . ." according to Eric Tagg's book on Buddy Walthers.

Duke

Not familiar with that; have no idea. I'll have to look into it if possible.

Greg

The book is called Brush with history: A day in the life of deputy E.R. Walthers.

Duke

Still, what you're suggesting here tends toward the local rather than the national ....

Greg

Those I believe were involved in the planning had strong local ties.

Greg

The false sighting at the library stopped some from searching as they sped off to that diversion, and Hill, in his attempt, was seen coming up the stairs by two ladies inside. They opened the door and told him they'd seen no-one and everything was jim dandy inside. Good enough for Hill, apparently.

Duke

Now that's a pretty passive role ... or very lucky on the part of whomever had managed to set all of this up ... Truly giving the "go" signal to Oz the patsy ... his managing to get away by the skin of his teeth ... pulling a dumb move like shooting a cop, drawing attention to him and his "friends" ... and then (phew!) along comes that lucky call to the library. Are you sure of all this, or maybe there are some other holes to fill? Like, for instance, if the game plan was to end up at the ALT in the first place and the library call was a planned diversion, then what was the deal with Tippit such that they'd need a diversion from that little murder?

Greg

Sorry if I gave the impression I think Oswald killed Tippit. I don't. To me, it appears the killer was the man seen by Rowland and stopped by Baker.

The library and ASC incidents are interesting. The ASC was just a little north of where the jacket was found. The library was just two blocks from the Tippit scene. Two SS agents sent a young libray employee, Adrian Hamby, scurring into the building to tell the manager a cop killer was on the loose and to lock the doors. Patrolman Walker just happened to see Hamby running inside and, deciding he was a suspect, put out the alert. This call seems to have sent the cops into a frenzy because within minutes, they had the place surrounded - this included some who were about to search the ALT based on a witness report broadcast by Hill: "A witness said he saw [the suspect] last at the Abundant LifeTemple at 10th, about the 400 block. We're fixing to go in & shake it down." I think the library incident was ad-libbed to draw attention from ALT. It possibly got a larger contingent of cops to it as the witness was himself a cop. Hill, btw, was the only person to even mention the ASC in testimony. Even his call about it was excised from the Sawyer Exhibit of the radio transcripts.

As for Tippit, reports had him parked in a spot with a clear view of traffic coming from DP. I think he was waiting for the car Oswald was picked up in and he was to deliver him to Redbird. Obviously something went seriously wrong at this point. I also think Tippit was doomed whether or not he delivered Oswald to the airport. He would be killed, with Oswald framed for it via evidence left that would linkhim to Cuba (the Hidell ID). If any cop was expendable, it was Tippit. He couldn't even fill out his own paperwork according to his personnel record.

Duke

I think it's fair to say that it was well prior to 1:15 that LHO "may well have been the first to be let go," if that was indeed the case. If so, why was he singled out for a privilege not extended to anyone else for at least another half-hour, such extension of privilege forgotten, denied or disclaimed - and certainly not volunteered - by anyone who would have extended it?

Greg

What I meant to say was, the first to be let go after the cops had taken details. As to why he was extended this privilege of being the first... well... how else was he going to be reported as missing?

Duke

It would seem that LHO had to have left the premises before any permissions were given to anyone to take the day off or to "vacate the building."

Greg

Yes.

Duke

He didn't say (or, nobody says he said, anyway, since we really don't know what he did say behind closed doors) that he was told he could take the afternoon off, only that he "didn't think there'd be any more work" for the rest of the day.

Greg

I can't recall who - but one of those present at the interrogations claimed Oswald had said Shelley gave him permission to leave. Even if this were true, Shelley had no authority to do so, and would have been acting under orders from Truly or Campbell. According to Don Willis, Shelley may have in fact, also left early. Google "The Employee Who Was Missing from the TSBD--William Shelley"

for details.

Duke

If he were already in Oak Cliff by 1:00, then when he left TSBD was before any FBI agent told Campbell to "have all the employees vacate the building," since, if I'm remembering correctly, Forrest Sorrells was the first FBI agent (back) on the scene after the shooting, and he didn't arrive until 1:00 or sometime shortly thereafter.

Greg

Sorrels statements on his whereabouts (and timing issues) are suspect when put beside the photographic record and the statements of others. Don Willis again gets credit for picking this up.

Duke

Personally, if I were to build a scenario that had Oswald getting framed - and killed - for the murders, I would probably have him dying in a hail of gunfire in the theater after Nick McDonald was shot ... except that the "big bang" didn't happen, and there was no time for a second try before McD got his hands on the gun.

Greg

Indeed. And in my opinion, he got his hand on before entering the TT. He was trying to plant it on Oswald as an excuse to kill him. Getting him out of the country had failed. This would have to do. Oswald saved himself by making sure everyone heard him say he wasn't resisting.

Duke

I think you may have something there ... tho' I also don't think McDonald went into it expecting he'd be the next casualty either. And if the gun didn't go off, what would the excuse for shooting Oswald have been?

Greg

It didn't have to go off. It only had to be said that he'd pulled it. Who in Texas is gonna question McDonald shooting him under the circumstances?

Greg

Harry Olsen's memory was so poor, it's not surprising he had to leave the force. biggrin.gif

Duke

If you say so. You do realize that it was the second time he got fired in the previous 18 months, don't you?

Greg

Vaguely recall something about that, but not in any detail.

Very late here, and I think I may have answered bit and pieces from two different posts - which was not my intent. When I get time, I'll check your posts and try and sort out what's left to respond to. Hope it's not too confusing.

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Don't worry, I'm not confused. :ice

Greg - The ALT "was part of a network run by H. L. Hunt, Carl McIntire and Billy James Hargis - called the American Council of Christian Churches, a right-wing organization that involved itself politically with many Cold War efforts, including the struggle to free Cuba. . . ." according to Eric Tagg's book on Buddy Walthers. The book is called Brush with history: A day in the life of deputy E.R. Walthers.
Thanks, I've already found copies for sale.
Duke - Still, what you're suggesting here tends toward the local rather than the national ....

Greg - Those I believe were involved in the planning had strong local ties.

Interesting. To whom or what?
Greg - As for Tippit, reports had him parked in a spot with a clear view of traffic coming from DP. I think he was waiting for the car Oswald was picked up in and he was to deliver him to Redbird. Obviously something went seriously wrong at this point. I also think Tippit was doomed whether or not he delivered Oswald to the airport. He would be killed, with Oswald framed for it via evidence left that would linkhim to Cuba (the Hidell ID). If any cop was expendable, it was Tippit. He couldn't even fill out his own paperwork according to his personnel record.
Maybe so ... but don't you think that someone would have to have a grudge or something against him? I mean, you don't just go killing fellow officer - an observation that is implicit in your reference to his personnel record - because they can't fill out paperwork. You either have to really want the guy dead, or at the very least consider him the absolute pits as a cop. You also would have to think very little of his family or otherwise - as they say the Mob does - "set them up" financially afterward. They would probably have to accept the whole deal for it to be credible, no?
Duke - He didn't say (or, nobody says he said, anyway, since we really don't know what he did say behind closed doors) that he was told he could take the afternoon off, only that he "didn't think there'd be any more work" for the rest of the day.

Greg - I can't recall who - but one of those present at the interrogations claimed Oswald had said Shelley gave him permission to leave. Even if this were true, Shelley had no authority to do so, and would have been acting under orders from Truly or Campbell. According to Don Willis, Shelley may have in fact, also left early. Google "The Employee Who Was Missing from the TSBD--William Shelley" for details.

Well, it really doesn't matter what authority Shelley or anyone else did or didn't have, what matters most is what the person he told anything to perceived him as having. If he was wrong, it only matters if the person was caught, or if anyone cared to do anything about it. Witness the fate of Lt William Calley. I'll look into the Shelley-leaving-early thing.
Duke - Personally, if I were to build a scenario that had Oswald getting framed - and killed - for the murders, I would probably have him dying in a hail of gunfire in the theater after Nick McDonald was shot ... except that the "big bang" didn't happen, and there was no time for a second try before McD got his hands on the gun.

Greg - Indeed. And in my opinion, he got his hand on before entering the TT. He was trying to plant it on Oswald as an excuse to kill him. Getting him out of the country had failed. This would have to do. Oswald saved himself by making sure everyone heard him say he wasn't resisting.

Duke - I think you may have something there ... tho' I also don't think McDonald went into it expecting he'd be the next casualty either. And if the gun didn't go off, what would the excuse for shooting Oswald have been?

Greg - It didn't have to go off. It only had to be said that he'd pulled it. Who in Texas is gonna question McDonald shooting him under the circumstances?

I see your point again, but it doesn't "listen" well. When was McD supposed to shoot Lee anyway? I don't think it makes sense that McD would attempt to pass off the idea that LHO threatened him with a gun and then not shoot him while the weapon was in his hand. In other words, it's very difficult to prove - or, really, even suggest - self-defense after you've disarmed the perp ... and McD did do just that and handed the gun off to someone else; the threat was neutralized, no good cause for shooting.

It would seem the much easier approach given those facts would have been simply to shoot him, turn around and get the gun from someone, put it in the dead guy's hand and then say "he tried to shoot me." No, I think McD was just another "poor dumb cop" if anything.

Greg - Very late here, and I think I may have answered bit and pieces from two different posts - which was not my intent. When I get time, I'll check your posts and try and sort out what's left to respond to. Hope it's not too confusing.
Not in the least, but thanks for your concern! ;)
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Baker's story morphed into whatever was needed at any particular time. As I do not think he was involved in any plot, but merely fell into line afterwards, I put most weight on his affidavit taken on the afternoon of the 22nd. In that, he said in regard to Truly, "...as I entered the door I saw several people standing around. I asked these people where the stairs were. A man stepped forward and stated he was the building manager..." Seems like Truly was already in the building when Baker entered.
According to Truly's testimony, he entered the building after Baker. As the building superintendent, it would make sense that he would want to be aware of and assist with police entering the building at any time. As to Baker's perception that Truly "stepped forward," someone coming into the door and through the people standing there - and where Baker had also come from - would seem to be "stepp[ing] forward" out of the crowd from the point of view of someone who was in the middle of the room. I don't know whether Baker knew who was in the building already or who followed him in, only that someone stepped toward him as the person in charge. Truly could have just as easily just entered the door and walked forward as anything else.
With regard to a description of this person, Baker said it was "a white man, approx 30 years old/5'9"/165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket."

Oswald: white male, 24 years old, 5' 9", 145 pounds, light brown hair, grey wool or flannel jacket ... The person Baker encountered does not sound like Oswald. ...

According to Mrs Reid, Lee was not wearing a jacket when he came through her office area.
The proof that it was not Oswald is in the fact that Oswald was in the same room awaiting interrogation as Marvin Johnson took Baker's affidavit. If it had been Oswald, the affidavit would say something like "the person I encountered was the suspect now under arrest." At the very least, he would have got the description right with Oswald sitting right there across from him.
Yes, it would seem that way, wouldn't it. It depends on what else was going on in the room, if anything, that might have prevented or distracted Baker from noticing Oswald when he was there. What are the cites on where Baker was and where Oswald was?
Somewhere between the time [baker's] affidavit was taken and the time Truly gave his on the Saturday, it was decided to (1) claim this encounter had been with Oswald, and (2) to switch it from third or fourth floor to second. These switches would be necessary since it is likely Baker did encounter the real gunman (or a decoy) and Reid's statement had placed Oswald on the second floor. Truly, I believe, went with Baker to ensure Baker did not arrest this man.
One could speculate how these things were possible, but how would they have been accomplished? Here's what I'm getting so far:
  • Baker gave his report on Friday, stating he saw a man on the 3rd or 4th floor "walking away from the stairs; this person was not Oswald in the second floor lunch room, as evidenced in part by the apparent fact that Baker didn't recognize Lee while he was sitting in the same room at DPD HQ;
  • In the meanwhile, someone (who?) decided that it was unacceptable to have had "the cop" (I'm guessing nobody knew his name?) encounter a conspirator (shooter or otherwise) on his way downstairs, and thus used Geraldean Reid's statement placing Lee in the second floor office coming from the lunch room to re-manufacture the encounter as having occurred on the second floor to coincide with Reid's encounter with him.
  • Some time after this, "the deciders" somehow convinced Baker that he needed to play along with the scenario, which could have been easy enough if only based on Baker's inferior knowledge of the building (vice Truly's: "no, officer, you'll remember that this door was swinging shut ..."), his likely adrenaline rush (he was after someone shooting at the President), and his focus on what may have been going on in the upper floors.

Am I missing anything?

Here's what I guess I'm not quite getting yet:

  • What was Truly's role in the conspiracy; how did he fit in? As noted elsewhere, he had risen through the ranks at TSBD, so had been there for some period of time, thus he hadn't been at the CIA Conspiracy School or to Cuba, and he wasn't Italian, so who was he conspiring with? If he wasn't tied in with any of the usual groups - or was he? - then how did he come to take a part in all of this? I am presuming that it was not TSBD suppliers who were doing the shooting ....
  • How did Truly & Company "get to" Baker to get his testimony to conform with their "cover story?" What was his (or Campbell's or Cason's) connection to the DPD that they could have brought any kind of pressure to bear on him? Was that connection direct or indirect (i.e., did they know someone or just have their own influence)? Or was it merely a case of continual "reminders" of "what happened" whenever Baker came back to the building for official purposes? Or did maybe Baker come back unofficially to refresh his own memory, and have it "refreshed" for him?
  • How could they have known what Reid's statement was? I don't know offhand when Geraldean gave her statement, or if it was before or after Truly's. Even assuming it was prior, if it was given to DPD or DCSD, how did Truly & Company know what it contained unless they were present when she gave it, or unless they had "someone on the inside" to let them know? And if the former was the case, was Truly's just a case of fast thinking on the feet, or did he have time to confer with others - or did he even need to confer with anyone else?? - so the "correct" story was able to be circulated and "firmed up?" If the latter, you're inferring a different conspiracy than is normally postulated.

The thing is, if that's the case, it could not have begun and ended there; it had to continue through to Oswald's own execution and beyond, otherwise we'd have to believe that TSBD had its own "part to play" in the conspiracy and the rest was left to chance. On TSBD's part, it looks from this like it:

  • Hired Oswald, specifically, on a pretense together with Charles Givens when the actual trend was to start laying off employees due to slackening times rather than hiring them. The only "excuse" - if that's all it was - to do so was to have the available manpower to re-surface the upper floors (in which case, why not use the inexperienced men to nail boards to the floor rather than fulfill orders?
  • Enabled the shooter(s) with entry to the building and a guarded exit meaning, too, that the shooter(s) was or were known to them, at least by sight (and none of these people suffered "mysterious deaths!"). This, it would seem, would necessitate some orchestration of the other inhabitants of the building during the crucial period, or else their complicity to one degree or another;
  • Made up and coordinated a story to implicate Oswald that survived - or merely fit into - the recollections of all of the other building employees. The latter case would seemingly require advance or immediate knowledge of what each of those employees said in their statements.

I've gotta run for now, but wanted to make at least these few points. By no means am I suggesting that any of this is necessarily impossible, but in order to be even vaguely possible, much less probable, these things would seem to need to be accounted for. Your thoughts?

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Duke

Too, if LHO was given permission to leave - and again, he didn't say he had been - then that would mean that someone told him something nobody else was told, with the sole intent of getting him to leave the premises. Even accomplishing that, there would then have had to have been some way to know (or decide) where he was going to go after he left.

Greg

As I said, at least one interrogator noted he claimed Shelley gave him permission. Whether it was Shelley or Truly really doesn't matter to me, but yes - they'd have to have some idea where he was going. I think he was picked up in the Rambler as seen by Roger Craig, Marvin Robinson and Roy Cooper. The latter two stated they could not ID the person who got in, but said he came down the grassy incline beside the building. This fits with the previously mentioned side door being unopened. It's from here that it gets murky, so without attempting to fill in every detail and every movement, in general terms, I think he was eventually to end up at Redbird - and that Tippit was somehow supposed to take him or escort him there. However, something went wrong and maybe Oswald, Tippit or both realised they were being duped - whatever - the actual plan would entail getting Oswald out of the country and killing him while making it look like he went to Cuba, and killing Tippit and framing Oswald for that, leaving further evidence linking Oswald to Cuba (the Hidell ID). Meanwhile, the rea killer would be holed up in the ASC.

Duke

An important point, too, is that despite the fact that he had been to Irving the evening before, it still was a Friday, and Irving was his usual destination ... albeit with his co-worker whom he apparently didn't ask about riding home with. Still, anyone trying to set him up simply by giving him "permission" to leave had no way of knowing that he wouldn't go somewhere other than where they'd need him to be.

Greg

Yes, Iriving was us "usual" destination on Friday. But this arrangement had only been going for 5 or 6 weeks, so it's difficult to make too much out of this. His reason for the change was because Ruth was supposedly holding a birthday party (or some such) for one of the kids and he didn't want to get in the way, so he switched visiting nights. That party ~ from memory ~ had already been held, or was scheduled for a future date - one of the two, so his reason for the switch was bogus. WC defenders will say he made the switch to get his rifle to shoot the Prez if Marina wouldn't come back to him. Whatever other reasons there may have been, the bottom line is that Buell knew he wasn't in need of a lift that day - allowing Oswald to leave after the assassination without raising Buell's suspicion as to why he hadn't waited for a lift.

Duke

Otherwise, the setup was incomplete and very possibly doomed to failure: what if he'd gone to Irving, or simply gone window shopping downtown, and hadn't been anywhere near where Tippit had gotten shot?

Greg

See above - at least one result of trip to Irving being brought forward a night was that he wasn't going there again on Friday. Apart from being in Oak Cliff, I don't know that Oswald was near the Tippit site.

Duke

Yes and yes ... and I'm also aware of the question that's been posed about how anyone there got that address for Oz, and your explanation makes sense ... if Revill was there soon enough after the shooting stopped to get Oswald's name from Oswald. Was he?

Greg

I'm reasonably certain he was.

Duke

Well, since we don't really know when Oz left or how he got to Oak Cliff

Greg

Since I go with Craig, he left about 11 to 15 minutes after the shooting in a Rambler.

Duke

I'm sure we can, for example, concoct a scenario where someone else gets the bus transfer into police hands - that's sort of difficult to say.

Greg

The bus story is a crock. McWatters thought he was being brought in to ID the young fellow who laughed/smiled/made innapriate comments when news of the assassination was being discussed. I have something on this somewhere, if you're interested.

Duke

Am I remembering correctly that the list was handwritten, or at least that LHO's was? If handwritten in its entirety, is the handwriting the same? (I recall that something - other than the fact that LHO's name was at the top - stuck out about it.) Also, for the sake of asking, are the people who follow his name in an order that makes sense vis-a-vis CE1381: first the people who were inside the building, followed by the people who couldn't get back in? If not, did Revill keep going in and out until he got everyone?

Greg

The list in CE 2003 is typed. There is handwriting at the top, which looks like a notation about Fritz and Gannaway - can't read it fully. There are also additional names written at the bottom of the first page: Truly, Dougherty, Jarman and Lovelady. Now there's a quartet to leave out and add on later!. As for any particular order - there doesn't appear to be any. My default (or should that be "faulty'!) assumption is that the list was typed in order that the names were taken by the cops on the firts floor. If so - Oswald's name at the top may be further evidence he did indeed give his details (albeit with an old, slightly incorrect address), and that he indeed, was the first to do so, and be allowed to leave.

Duke

Even still, it would seem to have to be an incredible coincidence that the very guy that "they" wanted to get out of the building and would set up as the patsy was the first one not only whose name was taken down, but who was let loose ... as nobody after him was for at least ... what? Half an hour or 45 minutes?

Greg

I don't see it as coincidence. He was let go deliberately before anyone else.

Duke

Not trying to be critical (or WC-apologetic!), just trying to fill in the holes, if that's what they are.

Greg

No problem. There are holes, and it's not likely all will ever be filled with anything other than conjecture. If you can fill any with solid evidence or plausible conjecture, then that would be great.

Duke

No question about Campbell's error ... or is there? Well, assuming the stairwell B/T/O encounter is true (even if the details are wrong), I guess not. So he misperceived something that took place in his own building (well, not actually his; Harold Byrd's) amid the confusion of a rather unusual event happening outside his doors just moments before. Seems reasonable. Seriously.

... So it would seem, then, that the same latitude should be applied to Baker's statement about where the encounter took place, especially when you consider that he was in a building he had (presumably) never been inside before. The stairs were half-flights as I remember, requiring going up one, then reversing direction and starting up the next to go up one story. Thus, in haste and confusion - or not even bothering to count, more intent upon reaching a destination he knew he hadn't reached than being concerned with how far along the pathway to it he'd come - he easily could have mistaken the number of floors he'd gone up.

Greg

I don't think it was Campbell's error, but the misperception of the reporter. I don't buy Baker being mistaken about the number of floors he'd ascended when he had the encounter because of the lack of mention of seeing Oswald in a room through a doorway. You also need to explain how he was unable to describe Oswald accurately as the person he'd seen even with Oswald sitting across from him. Marvin Johnson, who took Baker's affidavit, was to later claim Baker did ID the suspect under arrest (Oswald) as the person he'd stopped in the TSBD. However, if that had one iota of truth to it, it would have been mentioned in no uncertain terms in the affidavit. Baker did mention an encounter on the 3rd or 4th floor in his testimony, btw - but he said this was with Insp Sawyer and happened on his way back down from the 7th floor.

Duke

And haven't you done the same? Even visited a new friend's house a second time and wondered "gee, it seemed like it was a lot farther/shorter the other night" or something similar? No real idea what floor he was on at first, but after having gone back a time or two (he testified following the re-enactments) he knew it was the second ....?

Greg

That's not a fair question. My short cuts guarantee a longer trip. :rolleyes:

Duke in regard to Fritz's notes

I find it difficult to lend any credence to notes that didn't exist for 25 years, and may or may not have been in original form when the did begin to exist. As also noted previously, first impressions are not always the best impressions.

Greg

The scrawled notes done a personal shorthand style are indicative of someone not familiar with proper shorthand and hurrying to keep up with the answers being given. They sure as hell weren't notes taken days later when he had time to write legibly, neatly and in complete words/sentences. In other words, to me, they look like notes he wouldhave taken during the interrogations. They were not produced because they gave an indication of what Oswald actually said in regard to his alibi - which was that he's seen Junior and Shorty enter - not that he'd had lunch with them as claimed. That small change made Oswald's alibi easy to dismiss.

Duke

Again, I take your points, and it gets hairy here ... and you're right, it does require Oswald to be a party in some way if the direction you're going is correct. The question is, in what way? I think it's fair to say that it was not as a witting patsy ... wittingly as a patsy, that is: I have difficulty imagining someone - anyone - going along with the plan that "you're going to get blamed, you have to run, you're probably going to get killed."

Greg

He certainly would not have been told he was going to be killed.

Duke

I likewise have difficulty imagining someone as reasonably intelligent as Lee Oswald thinking that his leaving TSBD after the shooting - assuming he knew (and how could he not?) that that's what spurred his having to go into action - thinking that his leaving would not cast suspicion on him.

Greg

A number of possibilities here... if he was completely uninvoled, why would he worry about leaving when he had permission and a solid alibi?

More likely though, he was still acting as a decoy and was told he would either be arrested and that none of the evidence him would hold - or - that he would be flown out of the country.

I doubt the first since in this scenario, he was the one who gave a false address. I also have trouble with him agreeing to leave the country (presumably permanently) as this would likely involve never seeing his kids again.

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Duke

Here's a summary of what I think you're suggesting: You feel that it's possible that TSBD execs were in on the deal going down and purposely set up Lee Oswald, both weeks before the assassination by hiring him to be in the right place at the wrong time under false pretenses, and then after the fact by /a/ possibly shielding him from what was really going on (say, so he could continue to act innocent), or maybe having his active participation in some role inside the building, and then, in either of those cases, /b/ sending him elsewhere and then calling attention to him by subsequently bringing his absence to the attention of the police. The rest, as they say, is history.

Is that about right ... at least up to that point? If so, the next question would have to be to whom the TSBD folks turned control of the situation - and Oswald - over to once Lee had left the building.

Greg

That's about it.

Duke

Another would be why he wasn't just spirited off to, say, Redbird Airport and into a plane to Mexico if the real game plan was to get him out of the country. I mean, why go farting around little ol' Oak Cliff on foot if the "real deal" is hundreds of miles away, presumably by air?

Greg

They had to set him up for the Tippit hit and leave more incriminating evidence.

Duke

Third might be how all these contingency plans like a fake call to the library,

Greg

I think that was ad-libbed because of the report that the ALT was about to be searched due to the suspect seen entering.

Duke

or Nick McDonald attempting to plant a gun on Oswald happened to be in place in little ol' Oak Cliff if Oak Cliff wasn't part of the plan to begin with? What do you think: did Tippit accidentally stumble upon a man walking down the street (one of many, if Harry Olsen is to be believed from his vantage point six blocks away), decide he was somehow suspicious, and end up getting himself shot and killed for his efforts? Or might he, too, have been a diversion?

Greg

I actually don't think McDonald responded to the library call. The only people who claim he did are McDonald himself, and Myers. Not only did McDonald testify he responded - he claimed to be the one who sorted everything out. Hw wasnot given credit for this by anyone else - and no one else even listed him among those present. I think he he did go into the ALT and perhaps obtained a pistol in there.

As for Tippit, the articles by Bill Drenas have him acting in an increasingly agitated fashion after parking in a Gloco gas station and watching the traffic coming from the Houston St viaduct. He was apparently doing this from 12:45 to 1:00 - which fits neatly with the timeframe the Rambler picked up a passenger resembling Oswald from out front of the depository. His agitated behaviour from that point suggests something had gone wrong - or that he realised he was being dropped in it. Witnesses stated that he took off at high speed from the Gloco leading Drenas to suggest the possibility he took off after Oswald in Whaley's cab as they went past. Not difficult to imagine this happening - but with Oswald in the Rambler, not a cab.

Olsen is someone warranting a lot more attention. His lack of recall, and the WC's lack of curiosity regarding his story raises a very large flag.

Duke

I mean, the whole library/Nick McDonald thing leads one to the conclusion that the "conclusion" was to be in Oak Cliff, maybe even at the theater, so if you've got to get the cops to kill the patsy, what better way to stir their emotions than to kill one of their own ... or better yet, two of their own? A second cop-killing right in front of their eyes (so to speak) would all but guarantee that whoever did it was not going to get out alive, don't you think?

Greg

It seems possible that the TT was the designated place for Oswald to wait - so they'd know where to find him should Tippit fail to deliver him to Redbird.

Every cop involved claimed they had no idea that they'd captured the DP assassin... only the Tippit suspect. This was bollocks. At least some of them knew.

From Vic Robertson's testimony:

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time you opened up the curtains and looked out, did you have any idea that this might be the man who would be accused of shooting the President?

Mr. ROBERTSON. If I hadn't, I wouldn't have been there.

If the media knew, it had to come from the cops. McDonald was among the last to arrive at the TT - if not the last - yet no one went in until Nick came along, giving the impression his presence was required before entering. On 11/23 he told WFAA that he had a pistol as he made his way up to where Oswald was sitting. That pistol never got another mention.

Duke

Well, I dunno. You've opened a couple of areas that seem interesting to follow, tho' I don't know that they'd lead anywhere beyond speculation, but it makes for an interesting "alternate scenario" as folks on CompuServe used to bellow for years ago (as in: "if you can't concoct a better and more plausible story than the WC version, then that's what has to have happened").

Greg

Yes, there's some speculation, but there's also evidence supporting it. The questions I have to continually ask of myself are: have I taken everything possible into account? Have I weighted disparate peices of evidence correctly, and therefore relied upon the most solid evidence?

Duke

More later?

Greg

Sure. But I'm already playing catch-up.

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I've got to run off to do other stuff, but wanted to respond to a couple of items from the previous couple of posts:

Duke - I'm sure we can, for example, concoct a scenario where someone else gets the bus transfer into police hands - that's sort of difficult to say.

Greg - The bus story is a crock. McWatters thought he was being brought in to ID the young fellow who laughed/smiled/made innapriate comments when news of the assassination was being discussed. I have something on this somewhere, if you're interested.

I'm familiar with McWatters' statement about his thinking they wanted him to ID the kid, bu there are still the nagging little matters about McWatter's transfer being found on Oswald's person after he'd been arrested, and dear old Mrs Bledsoe's ID'ing him on the same bus.
Greg - ... As for Tippit, the articles by Bill Drenas have him acting in an increasingly agitated fashion after parking in a Gloco gas station and watching the traffic coming from the Houston St viaduct. He was apparently doing this from 12:45 to 1:00 - which fits neatly with the timeframe the Rambler picked up a passenger resembling Oswald from out front of the depository. His agitated behaviour from that point suggests something had gone wrong - or that he realised he was being dropped in it. Witnesses stated that he took off at high speed from the Gloco leading Drenas to suggest the possibility he took off after Oswald in Whaley's cab as they went past. Not difficult to imagine this happening - but with Oswald in the Rambler, not a cab.
There is one "non-discrepancy" that belies this entire scenario (which I've argued ceaselessly with Drenas) and that is where and when Tippit gave his locations on the radio. At one point (12:46?) he gave his location as being at Kiest and Bonnieview, a location in SE Oak Cliff. Eight minutes later, he was asked his location, and he said he was at 8th and Lancaster.

The most direct route from where he was to where he went is Bonnieview, which becomes 8th, which in turn intersects with Lancaster just west of the R.L. Thornton Expressway (I-35E - see map below). I have driven this route several times at "normal" speeds - remember that JD was not told to proceed at code (lights and/or siren) - and guess what? It takes just about exactly eight minutes!

They say "the devil's in the details," and this is one that's difficult to fake, "pretending" to get from somewhere you're not to somewhere else in just the right amount of time that it would normally take.

Duke - Another [question] would be why he wasn't just spirited off to, say, Redbird Airport and into a plane to Mexico if the real game plan was to get him out of the country. I mean, why go farting around little ol' Oak Cliff on foot if the "real deal" is hundreds of miles away, presumably by air?

Greg - They had to set him up for the Tippit hit and leave more incriminating evidence.

...

Duke - I mean, the whole library/Nick McDonald thing leads one to the conclusion that the "conclusion" was to be in Oak Cliff, maybe even at the theater, so if you've got to get the cops to kill the patsy, what better way to stir their emotions than to kill one of their own ... or better yet, two of their own? A second cop-killing right in front of their eyes (so to speak) would all but guarantee that whoever did it was not going to get out alive, don't you think?

Greg - It seems possible that the TT was the designated place for Oswald to wait - so they'd know where to find him should Tippit fail to deliver him to Redbird.

But wait! Of course Lee'd have to go to the theater because Tippit was going to fail to deliver him to Redbird because they were going to kill him first! The two possibilities are a contradiction.

Gotta run!

Edited by Duke Lane
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Duke re Eric Tagg's book on Walthers

Thanks, I've already found copies for sale.

Greg

Okay. When/if you get to check out what he said regarding the ALT, please advise of results.

Greg

Those I believe were involved in the planning had strong local ties.

Duke

Interesting. To whom or what?

Greg

MIG with insiders in DPS intelligence units and media. Robert Morris and the whole Bircher crew and their associations with congressional committees and anti-Castro exile groups.

Greg

As for Tippit, reports had him parked in a spot with a clear view of traffic coming from DP. I think he was waiting for the car Oswald was picked up in and he was to deliver him to Redbird. Obviously something went seriously wrong at this point. I also think Tippit was doomed whether or not he delivered Oswald to the airport. He would be killed, with Oswald framed for it via evidence left that would linkhim to Cuba (the Hidell ID). If any cop was expendable, it was Tippit. He couldn't even fill out his own paperwork according to his personnel record.

Duke

Maybe so ... but don't you think that someone would have to have a grudge or something against him? I mean, you don't just go killing fellow officer

Greg

I don't think it was a fellow officer who did it.

Duke

an observation that is implicit in your reference to his personnel record - because they can't fill out paperwork. You either have to really want the guy dead, or at the very least consider him the absolute pits as a cop. You also would have to think very little of his family or otherwise - as they say the Mob does - "set them up" financially afterward. They would probably have to accept the whole deal for it to be credible, no?

Greg

I'll expand for clarity. The DPD was virtually in the service of the extreme right - many cops were in fact members of r-w groups themselves. He was expendable to those who killed him. My comment on his paperwork was merely an example of his not being the brightest bulb on the christmas tree.

Greg

I can't recall who - but one of those present at the interrogations claimed Oswald had said Shelley gave him permission to leave. Even if this were true, Shelley had no authority to do so, and would have been acting under orders from Truly or Campbell. According to Don Willis, Shelley may have in fact, also left early. Google "The Employee Who Was Missing from the TSBD--William Shelley" for details.

Duke

Well, it really doesn't matter what authority Shelley or anyone else did or didn't have, what matters most is what the person he told anything to perceived him as having. If he was wrong, it only matters if the person was caught, or if anyone cared to do anything about it. Witness the fate of Lt William Calley. I'll look into the Shelley-leaving-early thing.

Greg

I've found my notes on this. It was Fritz who made the claim in testimony that Shelley gave him permission to leave. This however, was absent from his notes which only indicate he'd seen Shelley out the front, and that he left, because as you said, he thought there'd be no more work that day. This is from Holmes' testimony:"And he didn't say whether he took the elevator or not. He said, "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about." And he wouldn't tell what happened then."

Compare Holmes' recall of what Oswald said with what was reported here in Australia: "During the frantic search for the President's killer, police were posted at exits to the warehouse. Police said a man, whom they identified as Oswald, walked through the door of the warehouse and was stopped by a policeman. Oswald told the policeman that 'I work here,' and when another employee confirmed that he did, the policeman let Oswald walk away, they said." (source: Sydney Morning Herald's inital reports from Dallas dated 11/24/63 local time - 23/11/63 Dallas time. The SMH is a well-regarded and balanced broadsheet newspaper, not noted for sensationalism, exageration,

or lazy reporting).

Greg

It didn't have to go off. It only had to be said that he'd pulled it. Who in Texas is gonna question McDonald shooting him under the circumstances?

Duke

I see your point again, but it doesn't "listen" well. When was McD supposed to shoot Lee anyway?

Greg

McDonald was never supposed to shoot Lee - not as part of the original plan, anyway. That became neccessary when Tippit failed to deliver his "package" to redbird.

Duke

I don't think it makes sense that McD would attempt to pass off the idea that LHO threatened him with a gun and then not shoot him while the weapon was in his hand. In other words, it's very difficult to prove - or, really, even suggest - self-defense after you've disarmed the perp ... and McD did do just that and handed the gun off to someone else; the threat was neutralized, no good cause for shooting.

Greg

I have made an intense study of all statements/testimony regarding what went on in the TT, and have concluded that Oswald never had the weapon solely in his hands. I can expand on this if needed.

Additionally, it seems McDonald wasn't going to kill Oswald himself. Reporter Jim Ewell watched the arrest from the balcony and stated that he saw a cop train the barrell of a shotgun down through the tangle of bodies. Here's his account of it: "Then there was a commotion. I stepped to the railing where I could look down onto this. Just about that time the house lights came up and Nick McDonald made his move on Oswald. So I'm in a position looking down on where Oswald sat. not knowing who he was. Then I saw the fight that broke out. First, Nick was shouting, and then there was just a swarm of officers that came in. What I'm describing is what appeared to be a football play from above. John Toney remembered that some officer screamed out that they were breaking his arm. Another officer, Paul Bentley, the Chief Polygraph Examiner for the Dallas Police Department, who was well known to us all, came out of there with a broken ankle. What I saw rather astounded me.Someone was trying to hold the barrel of a shotgun, or train the barrel of a shotgun down among the heads of these officers. I thought, "What's he going to do with the shotgun?" I didn't know what was going on, but this person was holding a shotgun; I did see that. And it all happened in a matter of seconds!"

Duke

It would seem the much easier approach given those facts would have been simply to shoot him, turn around and get the gun from someone, put it in the dead guy's hand and then say "he tried to shoot me." No, I think McD was just another "poor dumb cop" if anything.

Greg

Simpler, but problematic given the number of potential witnesses. McDonald, imo, tried to shove the pistol into Oswald's wasteband when he claimed he was patting him down. Oswald then grabbed Mcdonald's hand and part of the gun - then in seconds, he was covered in cops with a shotgun aimed at him. This is when he started yelling that he wasn't resisting - which is probably what saved him (at least temporarily).

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Facinating thread guys. Please continue.

As per the email I received from Bill Pulte, the car Alexander was driving was a company car. He didn't recall the make, model, or year - only that it was either white or black. No help there - unless perhaps the company he worked for is still around and they retained the records - that's a bit of a stretch. I still don't understand the account provided by Alexander - that Tippit seemed to be looking for something - as opposed to someone.

Let me know if I need to find the email. Professor Pulte was very helpful.

- lee

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Greg - I can't recall who - but one of those present at the interrogations claimed Oswald had said Shelley gave him permission to leave. Even if this were true, Shelley had no authority to do so, and would have been acting under orders from Truly or Campbell. According to Don Willis, Shelley may have in fact, also left early. Google "The Employee Who Was Missing from the TSBD--William Shelley" for details.
All I could find was a (yawn!) thread from one of the alt.whatever.jfk newsgroups on this. I found some other Donald Willis stuff (e.g., "Fact After All: Tippit Shot With an Automatic"), but not that.
Duke - Well, it really doesn't matter what authority Shelley or anyone else did or didn't have, what matters most is what the person he told anything to perceived him as having. ... Even still, it would seem to have to be an incredible coincidence that the very guy that "they" wanted to get out of the building and would set up as the patsy was the first one not only whose name was taken down, but who was let loose ... as nobody after him was for at least ... what? Half an hour or 45 minutes?

Greg - I don't see it as coincidence. He was let go deliberately before anyone else.

Greg (later) - I've found my notes on this. It was Fritz who made the claim in testimony that Shelley gave him permission to leave. This however, was absent from his notes which only indicate he'd seen Shelley out the front, and that he left, because as you said, he thought there'd be no more work that day. This is from Holmes' testimony:

"And he didn't say whether he took the elevator or not. He said, "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about." And he wouldn't tell what happened then."

Compare Holmes' recall of what Oswald said with what was reported here in Australia:

"During the frantic search for the President's killer, police were posted at exits to the warehouse. Police said a man, whom they identified as Oswald, walked through the door of the warehouse and was stopped by a policeman. Oswald told the policeman that 'I work here,' and when another employee confirmed that he did, the policeman let Oswald walk away, they said."

Well, Harry's little bit there sort of shoots the O-giving-fake-address thing, as well as him giving his info to a cop and being told he could leave. I have to admit, though, it did have the ring of truth to it!
Duke - Again, I take your points, and it gets hairy here ... and you're right, it does require Oswald to be a party in some way if the direction you're going is correct. The question is, in what way? I think it's fair to say that it was not as a witting patsy ... wittingly as a patsy, that is: I have difficulty imagining someone - anyone - going along with the plan that "you're going to get blamed, you have to run, you're probably going to get killed."

Greg - He certainly would not have been told he was going to be killed.

Duke - I likewise have difficulty imagining someone as reasonably intelligent as Lee Oswald thinking that his leaving TSBD after the shooting - assuming he knew (and how could he not?) that that's what spurred his having to go into action - thinking that his leaving would not cast suspicion on him.

Greg - A number of possibilities here... if he was completely uninvolved, why would he worry about leaving when he had permission and a solid alibi? More likely though, he was still acting as a decoy and was told he would either be arrested and that none of the evidence him would hold - or - that he would be flown out of the country. I doubt the first since in this scenario, he was the one who gave a false address. I also have trouble with him agreeing to leave the country (presumably permanently) as this would likely involve never seeing his kids again.

Ah, but we're no longer certain that he gave a false address, as true to form as that may have been, are we. That he knew something seems pretty apparent, if only from his statement - if I'm remembering correctly that this happened at all - that "it will all come out at my trial," or words to that effect. Of course, if it did, it no doubt redoubled people's concerns about what he'd say about them, and sealed his fate ... if it hadn't been sealed already.

I've read of some scenarios where Oz was supposed to have been an infiltrator of sorts - they "listen" pretty well, actually - in Dallas into the whole Fort Hood/Terrell Armory weapons thing. That would lend some sense to why he would have been set up as the patsy - a big "gotcha!" - and might even lend some credence to his getting into someone's car in DP and heading off to Oak Cliff: how could he refuse them? Like an undercover narc who's gotten into a big coke ring or something having to tag along for and even participate in killings to maintain the cartel's trust. But when all's said and done, I really can't imagine anything as to what did or even might have happened at TSBD with Oz after the shooting ... or after he knew there was a shooting. It's just unfathomable to me, I can't get into a dead man's head.

Greg - Those I believe were involved in the planning had strong local ties.

Duke - Interesting. To whom or what?

Greg - MIG with insiders in DPS intelligence units and media. Robert Morris and the whole Bircher crew and their associations with congressional committees and anti-Castro exile groups.

Well, I guess that "whole Bircher crew" could include the Roy Trulys of the world. You can't forget the Walker group either, tho' I suspect they really didn't have anything to do with it, but that only from Walker's own attitude about it, having people checking into things and so forth: it almost seemed as if he knew more than the WC did!

Have you ever read the testimony of Revilo Pendleton Oliver, "America's premier patriot and scholar?" If not, before you do, read his articles about the assassination first, particularly "Marxmanship in Dallas" and "The Aftermath of the Assassination." Actually, you can check out the website dedicated to his fond memory at revilo-oliver.com, which includes several recordings of his speeches. According to one site discussing his patriotism and scholarship,

This book, which is one of many that Oliver wrote during his long career as an academic at the University of Illinois, deals with his association with
the John Birch Society, an organization founded to fight Communism. Oliver was a founding member
of this patriotic organization and he not only edited their flagship publication, American Opinion, but also wrote numerous book reviews and articles. Oliver also spent many years traveling the Birch speaking circuit, trying desperately to persuade Americans of the dangers of Communism and the values of conservatism. Eventually, Oliver became disillusioned by the conservative movement and John Birch founder Robert Welch, and he turned his energies to what he perceived were the real issues in the struggle against Communism: Jews and the complete ignorance of the white race to recognize its greatness and destiny.

It would be gut-busting hilarious if he wasn't so god-awful serious. The man is Rush Limbaugh on steroids.

Greg - I have made an intense study of all statements/testimony regarding what went on in the TT, and have concluded that Oswald never had the weapon solely in his hands. I can expand on this if needed.
Yes, please do.
Additionally, it seems McDonald wasn't going to kill Oswald himself. Reporter Jim Ewell watched the arrest from the balcony and stated that he saw a cop train the barrell of a shotgun down through the tangle of bodies. Here's his account of it:

... Then there was a commotion. I stepped to the railing where I could look down onto this. Just about that time the house lights came up and Nick McDonald made his move on Oswald.

So I'm in a position looking down on where Oswald sat. not knowing who he was. Then I saw the fight that broke out. First, Nick was shouting, and then there was just a swarm of officers that came in. What I'm describing is what appeared to be a football play from above. John Toney remembered that
some officer screamed out that they were breaking his arm
. Another officer, Paul Bentley, the Chief Polygraph Examiner for the Dallas Police Department, who was well known to us all, came out of there with a broken ankle.

What I saw rather astounded me. Someone was trying to hold the barrel of a shotgun, or train the barrel of a shotgun down among the heads of these officers. I thought, "What's he going to do with the shotgun?" I didn't know what was going on, but this person was holding a shotgun; I did see that. And it all happened in a matter of seconds!

Yet every single cop failed to see a shotgun ... or to testify to seeing one anyway.

As you read those accounts, you'll probably come across Pinky Westbrook's anecdote - which may be the same as above (underlined) - about how (ha-ha) one of the officers' hands was cuffed, someone apparently mistaking it for Oswald's. How, I don't know, it's not like Lee was dressed like a cop or detective. Did it have a gun in it at some point? Nobody who testified before the WC mentioned this incident other than Westbrook.

I believe that it was either Thomas Hutson or C.T. Walker who also commented that someone wsa telling Oz to let go of the gun, and he'd responded "I can't" or "I'm trying," like he was unable to let loose of it.

Duke - I don't think it makes sense that McD would attempt to pass off the idea that LHO threatened him with a gun and then not shoot him while the weapon was in his hand. In other words, it's very difficult to prove - or, really, even suggest - self-defense after you've disarmed the perp ... and McD did do just that and handed the gun off to someone else; the threat was neutralized, no good cause for shooting.

It would seem the much easier approach given those facts would have been simply to shoot him, turn around and get the gun from someone, put it in the dead guy's hand and then say "he tried to shoot me." No, I think McD was just another "poor dumb cop" if anything.

Greg - Simpler, but problematic given the number of potential witnesses. McDonald, imo, tried to shove the pistol into Oswald's wasteband when he claimed he was patting him down. Oswald then grabbed Mcdonald's hand and part of the gun - then in seconds, he was covered in cops with a shotgun aimed at him. This is when he started yelling that he wasn't resisting - which is probably what saved him (at least temporarily).

Interesting scenario. I'm guessing this will be in the installment about officers' testimonies about the goings-on at the theater?
Duke - Maybe so ... but don't you think that someone would have to have a grudge or something against him? I mean, you don't just go killing fellow officer

Greg - I don't think it was a fellow officer who did it.

Duke - You either have to really want the guy dead, or at the very least consider him the absolute pits as a cop. You also would have to think very little of his family or otherwise - as they say the Mob does - "set them up" financially afterward. They would probably have to accept the whole deal for it to be credible, no?

Greg - I'll expand for clarity. The DPD was virtually in the service of the extreme right - many cops were in fact members of r-w groups themselves. He was expendable to those who killed him.

So, who killed him?
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Greg - I can't recall who - but one of those present at the interrogations claimed Oswald had said Shelley gave him permission to leave. Even if this were true, Shelley had no authority to do so, and would have been acting under orders from Truly or Campbell. According to Don Willis, Shelley may have in fact, also left early. Google "The Employee Who Was Missing from the TSBD--William Shelley" for details.
All I could find was a (yawn!) thread from one of the alt.whatever.jfk newsgroups on this. I found some other Donald Willis stuff (e.g., "Fact After All: Tippit Shot With an Automatic"), but not that.
Duke - Well, it really doesn't matter what authority Shelley or anyone else did or didn't have, what matters most is what the person he told anything to perceived him as having. ... Even still, it would seem to have to be an incredible coincidence that the very guy that "they" wanted to get out of the building and would set up as the patsy was the first one not only whose name was taken down, but who was let loose ... as nobody after him was for at least ... what? Half an hour or 45 minutes?

Greg - I don't see it as coincidence. He was let go deliberately before anyone else.

Greg (later) - I've found my notes on this. It was Fritz who made the claim in testimony that Shelley gave him permission to leave. This however, was absent from his notes which only indicate he'd seen Shelley out the front, and that he left, because as you said, he thought there'd be no more work that day. This is from Holmes' testimony:

"And he didn't say whether he took the elevator or not. He said, "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about." And he wouldn't tell what happened then."

Compare Holmes' recall of what Oswald said with what was reported here in Australia:

"During the frantic search for the President's killer, police were posted at exits to the warehouse. Police said a man, whom they identified as Oswald, walked through the door of the warehouse and was stopped by a policeman. Oswald told the policeman that 'I work here,' and when another employee confirmed that he did, the policeman let Oswald walk away, they said."

Well, Harry's little bit there sort of shoots the O-giving-fake-address thing, as well as him giving his info to a cop and being told he could leave. I have to admit, though, it did have the ring of truth to it!
Duke - Again, I take your points, and it gets hairy here ... and you're right, it does require Oswald to be a party in some way if the direction you're going is correct. The question is, in what way? I think it's fair to say that it was not as a witting patsy ... wittingly as a patsy, that is: I have difficulty imagining someone - anyone - going along with the plan that "you're going to get blamed, you have to run, you're probably going to get killed."

Greg - He certainly would not have been told he was going to be killed.

Duke - I likewise have difficulty imagining someone as reasonably intelligent as Lee Oswald thinking that his leaving TSBD after the shooting - assuming he knew (and how could he not?) that that's what spurred his having to go into action - thinking that his leaving would not cast suspicion on him.

Greg - A number of possibilities here... if he was completely uninvolved, why would he worry about leaving when he had permission and a solid alibi? More likely though, he was still acting as a decoy and was told he would either be arrested and that none of the evidence him would hold - or - that he would be flown out of the country. I doubt the first since in this scenario, he was the one who gave a false address. I also have trouble with him agreeing to leave the country (presumably permanently) as this would likely involve never seeing his kids again.

Ah, but we're no longer certain that he gave a false address, as true to form as that may have been, are we. That he knew something seems pretty apparent, if only from his statement - if I'm remembering correctly that this happened at all - that "it will all come out at my trial," or words to that effect. Of course, if it did, it no doubt redoubled people's concerns about what he'd say about them, and sealed his fate ... if it hadn't been sealed already.

I've read of some scenarios where Oz was supposed to have been an infiltrator of sorts - they "listen" pretty well, actually - in Dallas into the whole Fort Hood/Terrell Armory weapons thing. That would lend some sense to why he would have been set up as the patsy - a big "gotcha!" - and might even lend some credence to his getting into someone's car in DP and heading off to Oak Cliff: how could he refuse them? Like an undercover narc who's gotten into a big coke ring or something having to tag along for and even participate in killings to maintain the cartel's trust. But when all's said and done, I really can't imagine anything as to what did or even might have happened at TSBD with Oz after the shooting ... or after he knew there was a shooting. It's just unfathomable to me, I can't get into a dead man's head.

Greg - Those I believe were involved in the planning had strong local ties.

Duke - Interesting. To whom or what?

Greg - MIG with insiders in DPS intelligence units and media. Robert Morris and the whole Bircher crew and their associations with congressional committees and anti-Castro exile groups.

Well, I guess that "whole Bircher crew" could include the Roy Trulys of the world. You can't forget the Walker group either, tho' I suspect they really didn't have anything to do with it, but that only from Walker's own attitude about it, having people checking into things and so forth: it almost seemed as if he knew more than the WC did!

Have you ever read the testimony of Revilo Pendleton Oliver, "America's premier patriot and scholar?" If not, before you do, read his articles about the assassination first, particularly "Marxmanship in Dallas" and "The Aftermath of the Assassination." Actually, you can check out the website dedicated to his fond memory at revilo-oliver.com, which includes several recordings of his speeches. According to one site discussing his patriotism and scholarship,

This book, which is one of many that Oliver wrote during his long career as an academic at the University of Illinois, deals with his association with
the John Birch Society, an organization founded to fight Communism. Oliver was a founding member
of this patriotic organization and he not only edited their flagship publication, American Opinion, but also wrote numerous book reviews and articles. Oliver also spent many years traveling the Birch speaking circuit, trying desperately to persuade Americans of the dangers of Communism and the values of conservatism. Eventually, Oliver became disillusioned by the conservative movement and John Birch founder Robert Welch, and he turned his energies to what he perceived were the real issues in the struggle against Communism: Jews and the complete ignorance of the white race to recognize its greatness and destiny.

It would be gut-busting hilarious if he wasn't so god-awful serious. The man is Rush Limbaugh on steroids.

Greg - I have made an intense study of all statements/testimony regarding what went on in the TT, and have concluded that Oswald never had the weapon solely in his hands. I can expand on this if needed.
Yes, please do.
Additionally, it seems McDonald wasn't going to kill Oswald himself. Reporter Jim Ewell watched the arrest from the balcony and stated that he saw a cop train the barrell of a shotgun down through the tangle of bodies. Here's his account of it:

... Then there was a commotion. I stepped to the railing where I could look down onto this. Just about that time the house lights came up and Nick McDonald made his move on Oswald.

So I'm in a position looking down on where Oswald sat. not knowing who he was. Then I saw the fight that broke out. First, Nick was shouting, and then there was just a swarm of officers that came in. What I'm describing is what appeared to be a football play from above. John Toney remembered that
some officer screamed out that they were breaking his arm
. Another officer, Paul Bentley, the Chief Polygraph Examiner for the Dallas Police Department, who was well known to us all, came out of there with a broken ankle.

What I saw rather astounded me. Someone was trying to hold the barrel of a shotgun, or train the barrel of a shotgun down among the heads of these officers. I thought, "What's he going to do with the shotgun?" I didn't know what was going on, but this person was holding a shotgun; I did see that. And it all happened in a matter of seconds!

Yet every single cop failed to see a shotgun ... or to testify to seeing one anyway.

As you read those accounts, you'll probably come across Pinky Westbrook's anecdote - which may be the same as above (underlined) - about how (ha-ha) one of the officers' hands was cuffed, someone apparently mistaking it for Oswald's. How, I don't know, it's not like Lee was dressed like a cop or detective. Did it have a gun in it at some point? Nobody who testified before the WC mentioned this incident other than Westbrook.

I believe that it was either Thomas Hutson or C.T. Walker who also commented that someone wsa telling Oz to let go of the gun, and he'd responded "I can't" or "I'm trying," like he was unable to let loose of it.

Duke - I don't think it makes sense that McD would attempt to pass off the idea that LHO threatened him with a gun and then not shoot him while the weapon was in his hand. In other words, it's very difficult to prove - or, really, even suggest - self-defense after you've disarmed the perp ... and McD did do just that and handed the gun off to someone else; the threat was neutralized, no good cause for shooting.

It would seem the much easier approach given those facts would have been simply to shoot him, turn around and get the gun from someone, put it in the dead guy's hand and then say "he tried to shoot me." No, I think McD was just another "poor dumb cop" if anything.

Greg - Simpler, but problematic given the number of potential witnesses. McDonald, imo, tried to shove the pistol into Oswald's wasteband when he claimed he was patting him down. Oswald then grabbed Mcdonald's hand and part of the gun - then in seconds, he was covered in cops with a shotgun aimed at him. This is when he started yelling that he wasn't resisting - which is probably what saved him (at least temporarily).

Interesting scenario. I'm guessing this will be in the installment about officers' testimonies about the goings-on at the theater?
Duke - Maybe so ... but don't you think that someone would have to have a grudge or something against him? I mean, you don't just go killing fellow officer

Greg - I don't think it was a fellow officer who did it.

Duke - You either have to really want the guy dead, or at the very least consider him the absolute pits as a cop. You also would have to think very little of his family or otherwise - as they say the Mob does - "set them up" financially afterward. They would probably have to accept the whole deal for it to be credible, no?

Greg - I'll expand for clarity. The DPD was virtually in the service of the extreme right - many cops were in fact members of r-w groups themselves. He was expendable to those who killed him.

So, who killed him?

I retired from Detroit Homicide and let me assure you nothing effects a cop like the murder of another officer-frankly, I think Tippit was killed to "encourage" responding officers not to take Oswald alive. I participated in a number of searches for cop killers and arrest was always the last and least preferred option.

Edited by Evan Marshall
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And it would ensure a shift of focus from the Plaza. Also the way they slowly approached Oswald in the theatre appears to give him plenty of chance to show his hand ensuring getting cut down. However he didn't, which makes an attempt to use the gun at the end a bit strange.

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I retired from Detroit Homicide and let me assure you nothing effects a cop like the murder of another officer-frankly, I think Tippit was killed to "encourage" responding officers not to take Oswald alive. I participated in a number of searches for cop killers and arrest was always the last and least preferred option.

Welcome Evan - I think that's a very likely scenario. Killing Kennedy isn't going to mean much to folks that already have cause to hate his guts. And also, it could greatly contribute to the control of the crime scene, etc. Much like setting hay on fire on one side of the school, so that you can push a cow in through the window on the other. Folks were in quite a hurry to get the 'hell out of Dodgas' - nothing like a manhunt to muddy the waters.

What's your take on the evidence [so called] in the Tippit slaying?

- lee

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I retired from Detroit Homicide and let me assure you nothing effects a cop like the murder of another officer-frankly, I think Tippit was killed to "encourage" responding officers not to take Oswald alive. I participated in a number of searches for cop killers and arrest was always the last and least preferred option.
Well, isn't it a relief to actually hear someone say that! My cousin, Francis Xavier Fenton, was off duty at a Hartford (CT) tavern when someone tried robbing the place. Franny acted and ended up dead for his efforts. I've heard from some members of the force who were active 'way back then that, when the news that one of their own was down, even off-duty officers responded.

If Tippit was killed, as you say, to "encourage responding officers not to take Oswald alive," then it can only stand to reason that killing Tippit was part of the plan from the very beginning. Either that or it was pure serendipity.

If I were a conspirator involved in assassinating the President of the United States, I think I'd do my damnedest to do whatever was necessary to cover my tracks. Even if the entire DPD hated JFK with a passion, the vast majority of them would have reacted in a thoroughly professional manner and done their jobs to track down his killer(s). The proof of this is in the reports that the officers on duty that afternoon filed: all but a very few (who took up roadblocks in their assigned areas, who were assigned to the Trade Mart, or who went to Parkland) immediately responded to Dealey Plaza.

I actually have a map of this somewhere. Let's see ... ah, here it is!

This is a copy of a Commission Exhibit provided, I think, by Inspector Sawyer. The color-coding is mine. Here's basically what happened and what the map tells you:

  • 12:38 - the DPD dispatcher broadcast "a shooting in the downtown area involving the President."
  • 12:41 - Dispatch radios, "Attention all squads in the downtown area: Code 3 [lights & sirens] to Elm and Houston with caution."

Whereupon, according to the channel 1 radio transcript and the officers' reports (filed during the following several days and available among the Commission Exhibits, probably CE2003 - but don't quote me on that!!), all of the officers in the districts marked as red and yellow on the map proceeded to Dealey Plaza. (Obviously, quite a few non-patrol officers did as well.)

Those whose districts are not marked (i.e., the white ones) did not file reports - that I've seen, anyway - or were assigned to the Trade Mart or motorcade route. Those colored light blue remained in their districts and most if not all set up road blocks or went on heightened patrol. What this map shows is that most of the patrol districts surrounding downtown Dallas had no patrol officers remaining in them.

  • 12:44:45± - Someone identifying themselves as the unit assigned to district 56, located at the right middle of the radio patrol map, calls to say that he'll be "clear for 5," in other words, out of the car (or out of service) for five minutes.
    In response, dispatch asks "56, your location?" to which 56 responds "East Jefferson."

East Jefferson Boulevard is located only in Oak Cliff, and runs from Beckley to the Jefferson Viaduct into downtown (see second map below; East Jefferson is marked in red); there is no other entry for "Jefferson" anywhere else in Dallas.

District 56, on the other hand, is located at the far eastern edge of Dallas, bordering on the towns of Garland and Mesquite. If the individual claiming to be "56" was actually assigned to that area and was in fact on East Jefferson (why he'd say so otherwise is anyone's good guess), then according to Yahoo maps, he was about 10 miles from his assigned patrol district.

(56 was last heard from at around 12:28 in conjunction with a garbled transmission regarding "...traffic, on a '56 Chevrolet. I can't see the license number." Six minutes later, at 12:34, dispatch calls him, gets no response, then makes the general query: "Anyone know where 56 is?"

(When he reappears to indicate that he is "clear" some 20 minutes later and 10 miles from his assigned area, it is without comment by dispatch other than to ask his location, which also draws no comment ... but seemingly prompts them, after hearing that he's in Oak Cliff, to think that nobody's in Oak Cliff and they need to get Tippit over there right away!)

East Jefferson Blvd, Oak Cliff

  • 12:45:30± - Dispatch orders units 87 (R.C. Nelson) and 78 (Tippit) to "move into central Oak Cliff." Tippit responds that he is located at "about Kiest and Bonnie View" in his regular patrol district (dark blue on the map); Nelson indicates that he is "travelling north on Marsalis at R.L. Thornton [Expressway, now I-35E]," just one or two blocks south of East Jefferson at the southeast edge of Oak Cliff.
    (Nelson will continue into downtown via the Jefferson Viaduct, informing dispatch of his progress - without comment from the dispatchers - until he radios that he is "out down here" at Dealey Plaza. He is not heard from again until after the citizen "officer down" call by T.F. Bowley.)

These calls are significant, being just about 30 seconds between them: no sooner does a patrol unit indicate that it is available in Oak Cliff than DPD dispatch decided that - in dispatcher Murray Jackson's later words - "we were draining resources from Oak Cliff" and needed to send his friend, JD Tippit, to cover the shortage of manpower.

It should also be noted that the officer who normally patrolled this section of town, W.D. Mentzel, was in the area eating lunch at the Luby's Cafeteria on Jefferson Blvd. Mentzel was the only patrol officer in the entire city of Dallas taking lunch during the time the President was in town (he cleared for lunch at 12:28, when the motorcade was on Main). He would remain at lunch until 1:07, and would then be sent to investigate an accident on Davis St.

As is shown by the radio map, Oak Cliff was clearly not the only part of town that had had its "resources drained," and indeed most of the city - including the area immediately surrounding the assassination site as well as large sections to the north, south and east - was devoid of police patrols.

The usual question - and the only one that "unofficial spokesmen" for DPD at this time respond to - is "why was Tippit sent to Oak Cliff?" (the usual response being his bravery, dependability and so forth); the real question that should be posed, perhaps, is "why was anyone sent to Oak Cliff ... and why only to Oak Cliff?"

  • 12:54 - Dispatch again radios 78 asking "you are in the Oak Cliff area, are you not?" to which Tippit responds in the affirmative, he is at "Lancaster and Eighth." He is then told to "be at large for any emergency that comes in." It is his last complete transmission.

The gist of this sequence of events is that, knowing that there were twice as many officers in Oak Cliff as was usual (albeit with one indisposed at lunch), Jackson anxiously monitored his "friend's" progress into the area and then - as desperate as Oak Cliff was for a police presence - was cut adrift and told to simply "wander around as you see fit" in case something - anything - happened.

Fifteen minutes later, he was dead.

As I have noted and illustrated elsewhere under this thread, the most likely route that Tippit would have taken from Kiest and Bonnieview takes almost exactly the same amount of time to travel today - at normal speeds - as it took between the transmissions sending Tippit into Oak Cliff and confirming he was there. This is too coincidental to suggest that anything other than what Tippit purportedly did is exactly what he did do.

It also suggests a dispatcher who was "watching the clock" to be certain that Tippit got into Oak Cliff quickly. His choice of words - "you are in the Oak Cliff area, are you not" rather than a more colloquial (and most of the dispatches were fairly colloquial) "are you in Oak Cliff yet?" likewise suggests someone who was more than a little "keyed up."

According to former patrolman Tom Tilson (hero of "The Black Car Chase," a busy man that day despite his being off duty), who also claims to have been a friend of Tippit's, it was "common knowledge in the department" that JD had a paramour "on the south side of Tenth Street" in Oak Cliff, coincidentally just where he was shot and killed. If that is true - and I cannot state if it is or not - then it is possible that he was expected to show up there soon after he was put "at large," which he did.

  • 1:02 to 1:03± - Dispatch calls "78, location?" There is no response.

Not only is there no response, but there is no follow-up call, and no reference to 78 again until after the "citizen call" reporting an officer down; it is the very first transmission following Bowley's giving them the location of the shooting at 1:16 p.m., more than ten minutes after the previous no-response call to Tippit.

Is it a complete flight of fancy to imagine that the first non-responsive call was expected, that Jackson knew that JD wouldn't answer, and that he could pay no particular additional attention to him - despite his not answering - until somehow someone would inform them of his shooting, whether by radio or by phone? Upon getting that news, the first order of business would, under such a scenario, be the confirmation that JD Tippit would not and could not answer.

The "officer down" call had its desired effect - if that's what it was - of drawing a large number of police who were securing and searching the downtown crime scene away from where the President of the United States had been killed on their watch, under their protection. If one were to imagine any from among a long list of crimes, there are few - if any - others that would cause police officers to drop whatever they might have been doing, however important it may have been, to rush to another crime scene except the shooting of a fellow officer.

All this goes to prove that the murder of JD Tippit was not the desperate act of a desperate killer (Oswald) intent on escape, but a cold and calculated diversion to draw the focus of attention from Dealey Plaza as well as to the area where the soon-to-be accused assassin would be found.

Underscoring this is the fact that only a short while after being informed that an officer ("56") was "clear for five" on East Jefferson in Oak Cliff, dispatchers did not even attempt to contact him as the officer closest to the scene of Tippit's shooting. 56 was never called, nor did he broadcast on the radio again for the rest of the afternoon: his last call was immediately before JD was sent to his death, letting JD's "friends" in dispatch know he was on the job and ready to roll.

Edited by Duke Lane
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