John Judge on Donald O. Norton

[Jack White]

I first heard of Donald Norton on the Grassy Knoll from John Judge

during a Dallas November conference. Here is the basic story John

told me years ago.

[Michael Hogan]

Thank you for posting that Jack. I remember reading that before, but had forgotten about it.

I started a thread, but moved it here.

......who became extremely interested in anything I knew about Donald O. Norton (the real LHO).

Jack,

I've heard that Norton lived in Florida and had a bait & tackle store. Beyond that, I know very little about him.

As you know, in his book Harvey & Lee Armstrong mentioned a CIA agent named Donald P. Norton that received $150,000 from David Ferrie and delivered it to a contact in Havana in 1958.

I would be most interested in anything you have to say (maybe a new thread?) about Donald O. Norton. Thanks.

Mike Hogan

Mike...the Donald O. Norton story is a very long one. Start a thread and I will contribute.

John Armstrong investigated it for more than a year, spending weeks in Ohio and Florida.

He had a long chapter on Norton, but decided for several reasons not to include it in

his already long book. His book could have easily run 2000 pages, and he had to cut

lots of stuff to keep it to one volume. Suffice it to say that John's research on Norton is

very compelling that he is the ORIGINAL BIRTH OSWALD.

Below, some comparisons of photos and handwriting. I will try to answer any Norton

questions.

Jack

Jack, do you know the specific reasons Armstrong decided not to include it in his already long book? Seems like such information would be fundamental to the subject. Are you aware of any of the specifics of Armstrong's research on Norton? I heard that when some South Florida researchers approached Norton, he picked up and vanished. Are his whereabouts today known? Did Armstrong ever interview Norton? Does Norton appear in any government records?

Jack, any information you could add would be appreciated.

[Jack White]

Thank you for posting that Jack. I remember reading that before, but had forgotten about it.

I started a thread, but moved it here.

......who became extremely interested in anything I knew about Donald O. Norton (the real LHO).

Jack,

I've heard that Norton lived in Florida and had a bait & tackle store. Beyond that, I know very little about him.

As you know, in his book Harvey & Lee Armstrong mentioned a CIA agent named Donald P. Norton that received $150,000 from David Ferrie and delivered it to a contact in Havana in 1958.

I would be most interested in anything you have to say (maybe a new thread?) about Donald O. Norton. Thanks.

Mike Hogan

Mike...the Donald O. Norton story is a very long one. Start a thread and I will contribute.

John Armstrong investigated it for more than a year, spending weeks in Ohio and Florida.

He had a long chapter on Norton, but decided for several reasons not to include it in

his already long book. His book could have easily run 2000 pages, and he had to cut

lots of stuff to keep it to one volume. Suffice it to say that John's research on Norton is

very compelling that he is the ORIGINAL BIRTH OSWALD.

Below, some comparisons of photos and handwriting. I will try to answer any Norton

questions.

Jack

Jack, do you know the specific reasons Armstrong decided not to include it in his already long book? Seems like such information would be fundamental to the subject. Are you aware of any of the specifics of Armstrong's research on Norton? I heard that when some South Florida researchers approached Norton, he picked up and vanished. Are his whereabouts today known? Did Armstrong ever interview Norton? Does Norton appear in any government records?

Jack, any information you could add would be appreciated.

I have ALL of Armstrong's research on Norton, which is extensive. It is too long a story to tell.

It was far too long to include in John's already long book. Plus, John liked to have a second

source for anything he included. SECOND SOURCES ON INTEL AGENTS ARE SCARCE. The

story is far too long to tell here. But I will try to answer any questions about Norton or Art Swanson.

Norton always picks up and vanishes when people start inquiring about him. John had him under

surveillance in Ohio, and NORTON AND FAMILY VANISHED OVERNIGHT, moving to Florida.

John talked to Norton's wife on a pretext, but was never able to meet Norton himself.

Norton is in many public records, mostly bankrupcies. He always seems to have a source

of funds, though often unemployed.

Jack

Edited November 4, 2006 by Jack White

[Jack White]

I've heard that Norton lived in Florida and had a bait & tackle store. Beyond that, I know very little about him.

As you know, in his book Harvey & Lee Armstrong mentioned a CIA agent named Donald P. Norton that received $150,000 from David Ferrie and delivered it to a contact in Havana in 1958.

All very interesting gents and all too much ignored IMO. Jack do you know if the 'LaRouche' mention has any significance? About what year was Armstrong on his trail in Ohio [causing his move to Florida] and when did he disappear from FL? Thanks much.

John's Norton research was about ten years ago. In Ohio, Norton was in the

graphic arts business. In Florida he first was in the nursing home business till

John found him. He now runs a fishing business, and is still in Florida as far

as is known.

Jack

[James Richards]

Jack,

Do you think it is possible that this is the same man below?

James

[Francesca Akhtar]

Interesting post Jack thanks for the info. I wasn't aware of this story.

Is it a possibility that Donald 'O' Norton and Donald 'P' Norton could actually be one and the same? The name odoesn't sound an overly familiar one and is it reasonable to suggest he could change the middle initial for some reason to make it seem like two different people? I don't know but I had heard of Donald P Norton and it strikes me that he sounds very similiar (i.e. the reference to running funds) to Donald O Norton.

I found out some info on Donald 'P' Norton for an article I wrote on Garrison's case for the Dealey Plaza Echo recently:

Further information concerning Clay Shaw's activities comes from a story told by a man named Donald P.Norton.

Norton claimed in a newspaper article published in Canada in 1967 that he had worked for the CIA and had once collected an attaché case containing $50,000, from Clay Shaw which he had delivered to Lee Harvey Oswald in Monterrey, Mexico. (106)

Norton said he had also delivered $150,000 to David Ferrie, which was to be sent on to Cuba. (107)

Norton says he started working for the CIA in 1957 when he was an entertainer, playing the organ at the officers' mess at Fort Benning. (108)

A CIA memo says that the story was published in several papers in Canada but not widely in the U.S., only in a few local Indiana papers.

In this memo the CIA denies they found any 'CIA or FBI traces' on him (109) but the memo goes on to say that 'Army traces at Fort Benning', show that there was an entertainer by that name who was paid $20, presumably for performing at the officers' mess. (110)

As far as I know this story is uncorroborated to support Norton's claims but Garrison's office interviewed Norton in 1967 and said that his story confirmed some they already had and gave them some possible new leads. (111)

The memo also states that Garrison's office:

".... termed Norton's story 'plausible' but possibly coloured....." (112)

References:

(106) CIA Memo 104-10435-10030: Garrison and the Kennedy Assassination, 7th September, 1967, page 3,The Russ Holmes Work File, http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/cia...10030_0001a.htm

(107) Ibid, page 2.

(108) Ibid, page 3.

(109) Ibid.

(110) Ibid.

(111) Ibid.

(112) Ibid.

I don't know if any of this fits with what is known about Donald 'O' Norton but would be interesting to find out.

[Michael Hogan]

According to one South Florida researcher:

"I met the Oswald double in Florida in 2004, running a fishing tackle store. He dyed his hair red according to John Armstrong who visited his home in Jupiter FL in the 1990's on Saturday, posing as a buyer for the house which was on the market. When he went back on Monday morning, the house was empty, cleaned out. The feds had tracked John all over the U.S. and probably told Oswald/Don Norton to leave asap.

The name of his fishing store, "Red's Fishing Tackle".

When one of our group went back to Avon Park this year, it also was cleaned out."

[Jack White]

Jack,

Do you think it is possible that this is the same man below?

James

John...about a year ago you asked the same question.

Here is the same reply again.

Older, added weight...but same chin, mustache and eyes.

Jack

[James Richards]

Jack,

I think the two older guys are one in the same. My question related more to the younger man.

Thanks anyway.

James

[Jack White]

Jack,

I think the two older guys are one in the same. My question related more to the younger man.

Thanks anyway.

James

Sorry I misunderstood. Yes, I think all three are the same. Since the

younger photo is from a high school yearbook, that means that

Norton went to Ohio and entered high school while Harvey enlisted

in the marines...or some other subterfuge.

It is all very complicated, and no answers are certain.

Jack

[James Richards]

Jack,

I think the two older guys are one in the same. My question related more to the younger man.

Thanks anyway.

James

Sorry I misunderstood. Yes, I think all three are the same. Since the

younger photo is from a high school yearbook, that means that

Norton went to Ohio and entered high school while Harvey enlisted

in the marines...or some other subterfuge.

It is all very complicated, and no answers are certain.

Jack

Thanks, Jack. Complicated for sure.

Any ideas who this 'Norton' is?

James

[William Kelly]

How come I always get dragged into these things?

I remember walking Mae and Judge and a few others into the parking lot, and Norton stepping forward to introduce himself, and Mae thanking him for his support of her work, but I didn't acompany them back to JJ's apartment, as I was a nineteen year old sophmore in college and it was a Friday night.

I've since tried to make up for my lack of attention at the time, yet still have yet to figure out the two Nortons. While I thought we ran through all of this a few years ago in another thread, I'm willing to rehash it again to see if we can take it any further.

Here's what I had last time I looked into this.

DONALD P. NORTON – By William E. Kelly, Jr. [ bkjfk3@yahoo.com ] As summarized from interview notes taken by investigators (Charles Ward/R. Billings) for the New Orleans District Attorney (NODA) and newspaper clips, released by the NARA under the JFK Act.

Born on January 23, 1932, a native of Columbus, Georgia, Donald P. Norton was raised and educated in Georgia before entering the U.S. Air Force in October, 1949. A musician who played the organ and self-described TV personality, Norton enlisted with the understanding he would play in the Air Force Band, which he did until 1952 when he was discharged over what he described as a “personal involvement” and an “indiscretion” that led to him being sentenced to six months in a federal prison.

Returning to Georgia he continued his musical education at a conservatory where he earned a bachelor and master degrees and in 1957 a job playing at the officers club at Fort Benning, Columbus, Georgia, where he performed for and met generals and other officers and officals. While there he was approached by a man representing the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), who told him “we want to know who does what to whom,” which the NODA investigator surmised, “the obvious implication being that it would his duty to ferret out homosexuals in high military places.” The money, Norton said, was good, $500 a month, and Norton continued what he called his “witch hunting” assignment until 1958, when the colonel who employed him was charged with embezzlement.

Norton then moved to Atlanta where he performed on weekends at the officers club, whose secretary Norton was convinced, was also a government agent, continuing to turn over information about homosexuals, proof “based on experience.”

In early 1958 he received a phone call from his contact who asked him if he would like to take a trip to Cuba. He met “Hugh Pharris” at the Easter Airline ticket counter at the Atlanta Airport. “Pharris” gave him a case of phonograph records, saying “it is in the jackets,” samples of which he was to take to Carlo Media, a Cuban television personality, who was also working for the CIA at the time. “Pharris” was described as a man who wore sun glasses and a very sloppy wig, who Norton is convinced was David Ferrie. A young lady was with him, Carlotta Roth, a dancer at the Domino Lounge in Atlanta. After traveling to Cuba, Norton returned to Georgia via Miami and New York and reported to his CIA contact in Atlanta.

Norton said his next assignment was to infiltrate the Fulton County jail, where he was placed in the same cell with Robert Bolling, accused of dynamiting a synagogue. Other assignments were more his specialty, to determine the existence of homosexuals in government jobs.

In 1960, while on a pleasure trip to New Orleans, Norton said he went to the My-O-My Club, a homosexual hangout, where he saw “Hugh Pharris” (aka David Ferrie), though he didn’t break operational security and talk to him.

According to the NODA investigation report of the interview with Norton, “…it should be noted that the man’s (Norton’s) physical appearance and his behavior indicate at a glance his sexual nature. A man of rather delicate features, slightly overweight, he is extremely nervous, a chain smoker, which may well be explained by the fact that he is indeed frightened. On the other hand, he is a fast-talking, well rehearsed witness, although his testimony is often confusing due to his penchant for inconsequential gossip. He has a very inflated ego about his musical talents and his ability to decipher weaknesses of others. He describes himself as a passive homosexual who is really a bisexual, although the latter terminology must be considered doubtful. On observation it must be stated that it seems unlikely that a man of such homosexual tendencies would be employed by the intelligence agency, but, as he described the nature of his work, this was exactly the reason they hired him. He described the reason for going to work for the agency as two-fold. One, ‘they had something on me,’ he says, and two, ‘the money was good.’”

Norton said he was paid on an assignment-by-assignment basis, received his orders by phone from a man who was only identified as “the Captain,” and never heard the term “CIA” by the initials used to describe the agency, and the first reference was the last reference to the company. He was tightly insulated from other CIA operatives and only knows of a few others who have worked for the agency.

In September, 1962, Norton said he was given the assignment of delivering $50,000 to the Hotel Yamajel, in Monterray, Mexico. Driving in his own 1956 Buick, he registered under his own name.

According to the NODA investigator’s report, “It should be noted here that Norton’s knowledge of Cuban policy of this country is extremely vague. He is able to theorize as if it were some revelation that the United States or CIA was behind the overthrow of Batista, but then when Castro threw out the CIA, it in turn, and the U.S. government turned against Castro. He does however say that Carlo Media, the CIA-employed Cuban is now in a Castro prison, so he thinks. He says that after the Castro overthrow his only assignment involving Cuba was this courier trip to Monterray to turn over $50,000 to Harvey Lee…”

After registering at the Yamajel Hotel, Norton said he was met by “Harvey Lee” before he could even get to his room. They went into the bar and had a few beers. Norton described “Harvey Lee” as “a man of slight build who dressed casually, who appeared identical to Oswald except for the fact that his hair was not as thin as the hair of the man he saw in pictures identified as Lee Harvey Oswald.”

Norton also noted that “Harvey Lee” refused to look him in the eye. When asked where he was from, Norton recalled the answer, he thinks, was New Orleans. In return for the case of money, in return Norton was given a case of documents in manila envelops, “the nature of which he does not know.”

From Monterray, Norton said he then drove to Calgary, Alberta, Canada, where he became a television personality and played at the bar of the Georgian Terrace restaurant. “There he was met by a man he can only describe as resembling Oral Roberts, the evangelist, and says this man came to him and used the code identification ‘the weather is very warm in Tulsa,” and Norton turned over the documents to him in the parking lot, where the man was driving a Volkswagon.

Returning to the United States, Norton was arrested at the behest of Albert Penn of Five Points, Alabama, who Norton knew as a homosexual, and from whom he received some of his instructions. Penn accused Norton of stealing checks, but he was acquitted of the charge and released.

In 1965 Norton went to Albany, Georgia, where he was contacted by “the Captain,” who may be also known as “Del Merton.” In Albany in 1966 he saw a man he now knows to be Clay Shaw with James A. Gray, an extreme right-wing political power, talking together at the Double Gate Country Club. Gray then offered to help establish Norton in Albany with a $6,000 loan, which was ostensibly and surreptitiously repaid by the CIA. Norton described Gary as a dangerous person and moneyman behind the Continental Room, where Gordon Leonard was the front man. Norton later crossed paths with Clay Shaw once again at the Domino Bar in Atlanta.

In Albany, Norton was told to recruit the services of an ex-Marine police officer, John Stickler, and a friend, Jack C. White, Jr., but failed to follow through on the assignment.

In late November 1966 Norton was instructed to go to Freeport, Grand Bahama Island, where he was to get the names of the homosexuals working at the missile tracking station on Grand Bahama, his last assignment for the CIA. After a week he returned to Miami where he called his contact, a “Mr. Green,” who informed him that “something was brewing in New Orleans and…he should take a long, quiet vacation.”

According to the NODA report, “Norton claims he had no idea as to the nature of the New Orleans development, and that he had no idea why he was being told to take this vacation. It worried him a great deal, so he went on a long circuitous trip attempting to find out what was happening, shy he had been summarily dismissed, so to speak. He suspected that he had done something wrong but did not know the nature of the misdeed. He first went o Key West to contact a CIA friend there, but was unsuccessful. He returned to Miami but was unable to reach Green again. He then drove to Savannna, and by this time was really frightened. He got in a plane and flew to Dallas and tried to contact a man named Stanley Walsh, who he had known in Houston, a man he describes as a former trapeze artist, a former paratrooper who had been working for the agency…”

Flying to Honolulu, Norton contacted a retired naval captain, a doctor then in private practice, who told Norton to forget the problem. Another CIA contact, Bill Rusk, came from Texas, an alcoholic with Mafia connections who ran a liquor store in the Pioneer Hotel, who told him, “Join the party or get out.”

From there Norton went to Canada to hide out, but inexplicitly talked to a reporter, John Taylor of the British Columbia Vancover Sun, requesting that Taylor put him in contact with the New Orleans District Attorney’s office. On August 5, 1967, the headline read: “AMERICAN, ‘NOWHERE ELSE TO GO’ COMES HERE TO TELL FANTASTIC TALE LINKS CIA WITH OSWALD, CLAY SHAW.”

“A link between Lee Harvey Oswald, Clay Shaw, David Ferrie and the Central Intelligence Agency is claimed by a man now in Vancover. Donald P. Norton, 35, told The Sun he encountered all three while he was on the payroll of the CIA, the U.S. espionage agency.”

“Norton has been interviewed here and in New Orleans by officials of the New Orleans district attorney Jim Garrision, whose investigation has been questioned by many sources, alleged a conspiracy between Shaw and Oswald in the assassination of former U.S. president John F. Kennedy.”

“…Norton first came to see The Sun, July 8. Since then many details of Norton’s story have been confirmed. But the authenticity of his central claims defy verification by normal newspaper investigation…”

xxxxyyyyzzz

[Jack White]

I've heard that Norton lived in Florida and had a bait & tackle store. Beyond that, I know very little about him.

As you know, in his book Harvey & Lee Armstrong mentioned a CIA agent named Donald P. Norton that received $150,000 from David Ferrie and delivered it to a contact in Havana in 1958.

All very interesting gents and all too much ignored IMO. Jack do you know if the 'LaRouche' mention has any significance? About what year was Armstrong on his trail in Ohio [causing his move to Florida] and when did he disappear from FL? Thanks much.

John's Norton research in Ohio was about twelve years ago. He tracked Norton to

Florida about eleven years ago. John traveled to both locations. In Ohio, he visited

Norton neighbors one day, and Norton and family skipped town the next day. After

tracking Norton to Florida, John actually visited his house and talked to his wife.

This is just a brief summary. There are many details I omit.

Jack

[Jack White]

I've heard that Norton lived in Florida and had a bait & tackle store. Beyond that, I know very little about him.

As you know, in his book Harvey & Lee Armstrong mentioned a CIA agent named Donald P. Norton that received $150,000 from David Ferrie and delivered it to a contact in Havana in 1958.

All very interesting gents and all too much ignored IMO. Jack do you know if the 'LaRouche' mention has any significance? About what year was Armstrong on his trail in Ohio [causing his move to Florida] and when did he disappear from FL? Thanks much.

John's Norton research in Ohio was about twelve years ago. He tracked Norton to

Florida about eleven years ago. John traveled to both locations. In Ohio, he visited

Norton neighbors one day, and Norton and family skipped town the next day. After

tracking Norton to Florida, John actually visited his house and talked to his wife.

This is just a brief summary. There are many details I omit.

Jack

I've heard that Norton lived in Florida and had a bait & tackle store. Beyond that, I know very little about him.

As you know, in his book Harvey & Lee Armstrong mentioned a CIA agent named Donald P. Norton that received $150,000 from David Ferrie and delivered it to a contact in Havana in 1958.

All very interesting gents and all too much ignored IMO. Jack do you know if the 'LaRouche' mention has any significance? About what year was Armstrong on his trail in Ohio [causing his move to Florida] and when did he disappear from FL? Thanks much.

John's Norton research in Ohio was about twelve years ago. He tracked Norton to

Florida about eleven years ago. John traveled to both locations. In Ohio, he visited

Norton neighbors one day, and Norton and family skipped town the next day. After

tracking Norton to Florida, John actually visited his house and talked to his wife.

This is just a brief summary. There are many details I omit.

Jack

[Dave Weaver]

Here's blog with a Norton ID theory (scroll down, there as some picture links).

http://thecloakofdarkness.blogspot.com/200...sherman_08.html

None of the Norton's pictured (here and there) has any resemblance with Lee Harvey Oswald (as we know him) whatsoever ,or does anyone have other pictures of Norton that makes such a resemblance clearer ?

Don't know, I just find it strange and hard to believe, that Mae and others , didn't take a picture of this guy when he popped up in the early 70's, if he was such a deadringer for Lee (Any or all of them, whatever),

there sure where chances to do that, or am I wrongfully assuming that ?