Thomas H. Purvis Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 About time to destroy the myth that LHO was a poor marksman. First off, he was raised hunting rabbits with a .22 rifle. Poor shots use shotguns, not .22 caliber rifles. Secondly, his USMC rating leaves much to be explained, and if one digs deep enough, they just may find that LHO was, in many ways, an exceptional shot. Mr. Hemming, you and/or any other USMC personnel, please feel free to step in and help clarify a few items about the rifle markmanship training of the USMC and exactly what it may, and may not mean. Any USMC type's out there who would like to explain how one gets their rifle markmanship rating? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Raymond Carroll Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 About time to destroy the myth that LHO was a poor marksman.First off, he was raised hunting rabbits with a .22 rifle. Poor shots use shotguns, not .22 caliber rifles. This is true, but he may have been compelled to use a .22 because he didn't have access to a shotgun. Is there any evidence that he ever actually shot a rabbit with a .22? Secondly, his USMC rating leaves much to be explained, and if one digs deep enough, they just may find that LHO was, in many ways, an exceptional shot. Is it not the case that even a skilled marksman needs regular practice to maintain his skill, just like a violinist or a trumpet-player? Lee Oswald's life has probably been scrutinized in greater detail than any other private citizen in history, but where is the evidence that he practised marksmanship in the weeks/months preceding the assassination? My late father, both a musician and, during a good part of his life, a crack shot, liked to quote Segovia, the great classical guitarist. Segovia boasted that he had successfully mastered the art of quick practice. "I've got it down to eight hours a day," Segovia said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Raymond Carroll Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 (edited) SORRY, DOUBLE POST Edited November 19, 2006 by J. Raymond Carroll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted November 19, 2006 Author Share Posted November 19, 2006 About time to destroy the myth that LHO was a poor marksman.First off, he was raised hunting rabbits with a .22 rifle. Poor shots use shotguns, not .22 caliber rifles. Secondly, his USMC rating leaves much to be explained, and if one digs deep enough, they just may find that LHO was, in many ways, an exceptional shot. Mr. Hemming, you and/or any other USMC personnel, please feel free to step in and help clarify a few items about the rifle markmanship training of the USMC and exactly what it may, and may not mean. Any USMC type's out there who would like to explain how one gets their rifle markmanship rating? http://www.answers.com/topic/marksman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David G. Healy Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 About time to destroy the myth that LHO was a poor marksman.First off, he was raised hunting rabbits with a .22 rifle. Poor shots use shotguns, not .22 caliber rifles. Secondly, his USMC rating leaves much to be explained, and if one digs deep enough, they just may find that LHO was, in many ways, an exceptional shot. Mr. Hemming, you and/or any other USMC personnel, please feel free to step in and help clarify a few items about the rifle markmanship training of the USMC and exactly what it may, and may not mean. Any USMC type's out there who would like to explain how one gets their rifle markmanship rating? I don't know, Tom -- I was privy to this exchange (and many more of the same) concerning Oswalds shooting prowess, I X'd out references to thread names, this ought to shed a little light on a differing opinion. I might add two of the three [of the threads] participants where active military during the Vietnam era, one USA-armor [Maj. ret.], another USA-artillery [Maj. ret.] and the another USMC-infantry [10 yrs. active duty] David From: XXXXXXX - Date: Sat, Nov XX XXXX 10:51 pm Email: XXXXXXX Groups: alt.conspiracy.jfk Not yet rated Rating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author On XX Nov 20XX GMT, XXXXXXXXXX wrote: >>Subject: the USMC knows who shot JFK >>From: XXXXXXXXXXXXXX >>Date: 11/14/01 4:24 PM Pacific Standard Time >>Message-id: <XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX...@posting.google.com> >>I have always marveled at the skill of Lee Harvey Oswald in shooting a >>moving target from a long distance at an intractable angle. That's >>Olympic calibre skill, at the very least. >***What is olympic about shooting at a slowly moving vehicle at Z224 onward, >when the vehicle was in the near middle of an S curve, such that the lateral >angle was >decreased? >*** Perhaps the disturbing fact that no shooters have come close to duplicating it? Including the rather highly qualified ones that the WC had trying it? Most non-shooters have no concept of the difference in skill between Oswald, (as demonstrated by his qualification scores in the Marine Corps), and the men the WC used to try to duplicate the event. It would not be overexaggerating to compare Oswald to 14 year old in the boxing ring at the local Boys & Girls Club, compared to a seasoned professional boxer. And yet, "It was an easy knockout...." I suspect that someone clued in the WC, since they never insisted on an elevation difference and a moving target. >>I don't know much about Oswald's military record, but it should be >>available via the Open Records Act. If he was that good a marksman >>the Marine Corps would have at a minimum given him a marksmanship >>medal (they give those out in Basic Training; so no matter what his >>speciality, he would have been so recognized had he the talent). A >>man that skilled would have immediately been promoted into a >>sharpshooters unit too. Even then 99.5% of the people in special >>units like that won't have the skill to make those shots on JFK. One >>thing is for sure, though - if the USMC didn't give him any >>marksmanship medals it's impossible he could have shot JFK. I fired on the USMC's West Coast rifle team for a few months, and those shooters the WC chose to 'test' their theories are as far above my shooting abilities, as I was above Oswald's. For any Marines out there, I routinely qualified between a 238 and a 242. A "Sharpshooter", which is what Oswald qualified for in Boot camp, is not what it sounds like to a civilian. Really good shooting skills *begin* at the Expert badge... You can have 50% or more of just everyday average people qualify for a sharpshooters badge in just two weeks of training. It's what the Marine Corps does!! >*** It is common record that Oswald qualified for the mid level medal by two >shots during basic. It is also common knowledge that closer shots are easier >than far shots. Kennedy was relatively close by military standards. >*** Deceptive... He fired Sharpshooter in Basic, but never again fired above Marksman... and had *trouble* just qualifying as marksman. There's witness testimony to his 'Maggies Drawer's'. (Missing the target entirely) And if you don't know how big the standard Marine Corps target is, you should find out. Close shots *are* easier than far shots. But moving targets are more difficult than non-moving, and level shots are far easier than shots over a vertical difference. Something, I might point out, the Marine Corps does *not* train in. >>I remember a scene in "Full Medal Jacket" when the Drill Sergeant >>bragged that a marine shot JFK and also a marine did the rampage here >>at the Univ. of Texas at Austin from the Tower, in which a couple >>dozen people were shot all over the campus. >***best you pay atttention to that. Marines are justly famous for their marksman skills. It's emphasized quite a bit in the Corps. And although there's almost certainly just as many former Army personal involved in shooting incidents as former Marines... it's always noted and remarked on when it's a former Marine. We *do* have that reputation, and it becomes self-sustaining. I enjoyed a decade of firing Expert in the Corps, shooting with the rifle team, and meeting some *real* rifle experts... I learned just how large the span is between people like Oswald and myself... and between my modest shooting ability and someone who is *REALLY* good. And my experience in the Corps has given me enough knowledge to be able to enjoy a good laugh at the ease with which people will charactorize the shots as easy. >>I suspect the second shooter at UT is the key to who shot JFK. An >>investigation of his military record should show marksmanship medals >>too. If they don't then - since it's 100% proven that he really did >>do the shootings at UT - it means that the USMC is covering up the >>event; and it also implies the marines are covering up Oswald's >>record. >***The USMC has no reason to cover up Oswald's record. He shot at relatively >close range- under 100 yards. >*** Why is it that experienced shooters invariably point out how difficult the shots were, while non-shooters attempt to claim how 'easy' the shots were? >>Either way, somebody ought to be looking into how the USMC and the >>other military branches train people to shoot like that. Here in >>Central Texas they are training lots of military personnel for the >>campaign in Central Asia. I sure hope they screen those people before >>they train them. Give me two weeks of your time, and I can get you to the same level Oswald was at. Just don't expect that it will mean as much as many people think. The evidence shows that Oswald was *not* a 'natural' shot, and never improved over his bootcamp scores... in fact, he got worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted November 20, 2006 Author Share Posted November 20, 2006 About time to destroy the myth that LHO was a poor marksman. First off, he was raised hunting rabbits with a .22 rifle. Poor shots use shotguns, not .22 caliber rifles. Secondly, his USMC rating leaves much to be explained, and if one digs deep enough, they just may find that LHO was, in many ways, an exceptional shot. Mr. Hemming, you and/or any other USMC personnel, please feel free to step in and help clarify a few items about the rifle markmanship training of the USMC and exactly what it may, and may not mean. Any USMC type's out there who would like to explain how one gets their rifle markmanship rating? I don't know, Tom -- I was privy to this exchange (and many more of the same) concerning Oswalds shooting prowess, I X'd out references to thread names, this ought to shed a little light on a differing opinion. I might add two of the three [of the threads] participants where active military during the Vietnam era, one USA-armor [Maj. ret.], another USA-artillery [Maj. ret.] and the another USMC-infantry [10 yrs. active duty] David From: XXXXXXX - Date: Sat, Nov XX XXXX 10:51 pm Email: XXXXXXX Groups: alt.conspiracy.jfk Not yet rated Rating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author On XX Nov 20XX GMT, XXXXXXXXXX wrote: >>Subject: the USMC knows who shot JFK >>From: XXXXXXXXXXXXXX >>Date: 11/14/01 4:24 PM Pacific Standard Time >>Message-id: <XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX...@posting.google.com> >>I have always marveled at the skill of Lee Harvey Oswald in shooting a >>moving target from a long distance at an intractable angle. That's >>Olympic calibre skill, at the very least. >***What is olympic about shooting at a slowly moving vehicle at Z224 onward, >when the vehicle was in the near middle of an S curve, such that the lateral >angle was >decreased? >*** Perhaps the disturbing fact that no shooters have come close to duplicating it? Including the rather highly qualified ones that the WC had trying it? Most non-shooters have no concept of the difference in skill between Oswald, (as demonstrated by his qualification scores in the Marine Corps), and the men the WC used to try to duplicate the event. It would not be overexaggerating to compare Oswald to 14 year old in the boxing ring at the local Boys & Girls Club, compared to a seasoned professional boxer. And yet, "It was an easy knockout...." I suspect that someone clued in the WC, since they never insisted on an elevation difference and a moving target. >>I don't know much about Oswald's military record, but it should be >>available via the Open Records Act. If he was that good a marksman >>the Marine Corps would have at a minimum given him a marksmanship >>medal (they give those out in Basic Training; so no matter what his >>speciality, he would have been so recognized had he the talent). A >>man that skilled would have immediately been promoted into a >>sharpshooters unit too. Even then 99.5% of the people in special >>units like that won't have the skill to make those shots on JFK. One >>thing is for sure, though - if the USMC didn't give him any >>marksmanship medals it's impossible he could have shot JFK. I fired on the USMC's West Coast rifle team for a few months, and those shooters the WC chose to 'test' their theories are as far above my shooting abilities, as I was above Oswald's. For any Marines out there, I routinely qualified between a 238 and a 242. A "Sharpshooter", which is what Oswald qualified for in Boot camp, is not what it sounds like to a civilian. Really good shooting skills *begin* at the Expert badge... You can have 50% or more of just everyday average people qualify for a sharpshooters badge in just two weeks of training. It's what the Marine Corps does!! >*** It is common record that Oswald qualified for the mid level medal by two >shots during basic. It is also common knowledge that closer shots are easier >than far shots. Kennedy was relatively close by military standards. >*** Deceptive... He fired Sharpshooter in Basic, but never again fired above Marksman... and had *trouble* just qualifying as marksman. There's witness testimony to his 'Maggies Drawer's'. (Missing the target entirely) And if you don't know how big the standard Marine Corps target is, you should find out. Close shots *are* easier than far shots. But moving targets are more difficult than non-moving, and level shots are far easier than shots over a vertical difference. Something, I might point out, the Marine Corps does *not* train in. >>I remember a scene in "Full Medal Jacket" when the Drill Sergeant >>bragged that a marine shot JFK and also a marine did the rampage here >>at the Univ. of Texas at Austin from the Tower, in which a couple >>dozen people were shot all over the campus. >***best you pay atttention to that. Marines are justly famous for their marksman skills. It's emphasized quite a bit in the Corps. And although there's almost certainly just as many former Army personal involved in shooting incidents as former Marines... it's always noted and remarked on when it's a former Marine. We *do* have that reputation, and it becomes self-sustaining. I enjoyed a decade of firing Expert in the Corps, shooting with the rifle team, and meeting some *real* rifle experts... I learned just how large the span is between people like Oswald and myself... and between my modest shooting ability and someone who is *REALLY* good. And my experience in the Corps has given me enough knowledge to be able to enjoy a good laugh at the ease with which people will charactorize the shots as easy. >>I suspect the second shooter at UT is the key to who shot JFK. An >>investigation of his military record should show marksmanship medals >>too. If they don't then - since it's 100% proven that he really did >>do the shootings at UT - it means that the USMC is covering up the >>event; and it also implies the marines are covering up Oswald's >>record. >***The USMC has no reason to cover up Oswald's record. He shot at relatively >close range- under 100 yards. >*** Why is it that experienced shooters invariably point out how difficult the shots were, while non-shooters attempt to claim how 'easy' the shots were? >>Either way, somebody ought to be looking into how the USMC and the >>other military branches train people to shoot like that. Here in >>Central Texas they are training lots of military personnel for the >>campaign in Central Asia. I sure hope they screen those people before >>they train them. Give me two weeks of your time, and I can get you to the same level Oswald was at. Just don't expect that it will mean as much as many people think. The evidence shows that Oswald was *not* a 'natural' shot, and never improved over his bootcamp scores... in fact, he got worse. PRIOR REFERENCE As stated elsewhere, I have neither attempted to duplicate Superman's flying ability, nor have I attempted to duplicate the shooting ability reportedly atributed to LHO by the WC. I am neither stupid enough to think that I can fly, nor am I more qualified than many who have attempted to get off three well aimed shots utilizing the 91/38 Carcano, in 5.6 seconds elapsed time. But then again, I was never so misguided as to believe the WC's shot/shooting sequence senario either. Now! As stated, go back to some good shooters with the information which was long ago provided and thereafter exactly how good one has to be to pull off such a shooting feat. Try this, then the "test" will not be "rigged" by the WC's misguided/mis-directed efforts. 1. First Shot: Slant distance---185 ft. (62 yards). 5.8 seconds thereafter: 2. Second Shot: Slant distance----265 ft. (88 yards) 2.3 seconds thereafter: 3. Third Shot: Slant distance------295 ft. (98 yards) Bench Rest position for shots# 1 and #2. Standing position leaning against wall for shot#3. Scope usage for shots# 1 and #2. Iron sights for shot#3. Everything which LHO shot at in the USMC marksmanship training, began at a distance of 200 yards. Now! As every Marine knows: EVERY MARINE IS A RIFLEMAN! The USMC rifle training, by far exceeds any other training of any other branch of the Military Services. They are ALWAYS deemed a "RIFLEMAN FIRST"! Other services, including the US Army, only give the most basic of rifle training during the 8-weeks of basic training. Thereafter, if one is going to be an 11Bravo (Infantry Rifleman), his rifle marksmanship is expanded considerably during his 8-week program of training which gives him his military MOS. Cooks; truck drivers; supply personnel; etc; etc; etc; in the US Army, thereafter get very little additional rifle marksmanship training, and are nowhere near the normal proficiency of the USMC personnel. If and when you ask anyone (preferably USMC personnel who know what we are speaking of) ask them if a score of 49 out of a maximum of 50 points for the 200 yard Rapid Fire sequence of marksmanship qualification sounds like someone who was a poor shot. One might even ask if a score of 48 out of a maximum of 50 point for the same 200 yard Rapid Fire sequence sounded like someone who was a poor shot. P.S. Math also is "supposed" to count. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted November 21, 2006 Author Share Posted November 21, 2006 About time to destroy the myth that LHO was a poor marksman. First off, he was raised hunting rabbits with a .22 rifle. Poor shots use shotguns, not .22 caliber rifles. Secondly, his USMC rating leaves much to be explained, and if one digs deep enough, they just may find that LHO was, in many ways, an exceptional shot. Mr. Hemming, you and/or any other USMC personnel, please feel free to step in and help clarify a few items about the rifle markmanship training of the USMC and exactly what it may, and may not mean. Any USMC type's out there who would like to explain how one gets their rifle markmanship rating? I don't know, Tom -- I was privy to this exchange (and many more of the same) concerning Oswalds shooting prowess, I X'd out references to thread names, this ought to shed a little light on a differing opinion. I might add two of the three [of the threads] participants where active military during the Vietnam era, one USA-armor [Maj. ret.], another USA-artillery [Maj. ret.] and the another USMC-infantry [10 yrs. active duty] David From: XXXXXXX - Date: Sat, Nov XX XXXX 10:51 pm Email: XXXXXXX Groups: alt.conspiracy.jfk Not yet rated Rating: show options Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author On XX Nov 20XX GMT, XXXXXXXXXX wrote: >>Subject: the USMC knows who shot JFK >>From: XXXXXXXXXXXXXX >>Date: 11/14/01 4:24 PM Pacific Standard Time >>Message-id: <XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX...@posting.google.com> >>I have always marveled at the skill of Lee Harvey Oswald in shooting a >>moving target from a long distance at an intractable angle. That's >>Olympic calibre skill, at the very least. >***What is olympic about shooting at a slowly moving vehicle at Z224 onward, >when the vehicle was in the near middle of an S curve, such that the lateral >angle was >decreased? >*** Perhaps the disturbing fact that no shooters have come close to duplicating it? Including the rather highly qualified ones that the WC had trying it? Most non-shooters have no concept of the difference in skill between Oswald, (as demonstrated by his qualification scores in the Marine Corps), and the men the WC used to try to duplicate the event. It would not be overexaggerating to compare Oswald to 14 year old in the boxing ring at the local Boys & Girls Club, compared to a seasoned professional boxer. And yet, "It was an easy knockout...." I suspect that someone clued in the WC, since they never insisted on an elevation difference and a moving target. >>I don't know much about Oswald's military record, but it should be >>available via the Open Records Act. If he was that good a marksman >>the Marine Corps would have at a minimum given him a marksmanship >>medal (they give those out in Basic Training; so no matter what his >>speciality, he would have been so recognized had he the talent). A >>man that skilled would have immediately been promoted into a >>sharpshooters unit too. Even then 99.5% of the people in special >>units like that won't have the skill to make those shots on JFK. One >>thing is for sure, though - if the USMC didn't give him any >>marksmanship medals it's impossible he could have shot JFK. I fired on the USMC's West Coast rifle team for a few months, and those shooters the WC chose to 'test' their theories are as far above my shooting abilities, as I was above Oswald's. For any Marines out there, I routinely qualified between a 238 and a 242. A "Sharpshooter", which is what Oswald qualified for in Boot camp, is not what it sounds like to a civilian. Really good shooting skills *begin* at the Expert badge... You can have 50% or more of just everyday average people qualify for a sharpshooters badge in just two weeks of training. It's what the Marine Corps does!! >*** It is common record that Oswald qualified for the mid level medal by two >shots during basic. It is also common knowledge that closer shots are easier >than far shots. Kennedy was relatively close by military standards. >*** Deceptive... He fired Sharpshooter in Basic, but never again fired above Marksman... and had *trouble* just qualifying as marksman. There's witness testimony to his 'Maggies Drawer's'. (Missing the target entirely) And if you don't know how big the standard Marine Corps target is, you should find out. Close shots *are* easier than far shots. But moving targets are more difficult than non-moving, and level shots are far easier than shots over a vertical difference. Something, I might point out, the Marine Corps does *not* train in. >>I remember a scene in "Full Medal Jacket" when the Drill Sergeant >>bragged that a marine shot JFK and also a marine did the rampage here >>at the Univ. of Texas at Austin from the Tower, in which a couple >>dozen people were shot all over the campus. >***best you pay atttention to that. Marines are justly famous for their marksman skills. It's emphasized quite a bit in the Corps. And although there's almost certainly just as many former Army personal involved in shooting incidents as former Marines... it's always noted and remarked on when it's a former Marine. We *do* have that reputation, and it becomes self-sustaining. I enjoyed a decade of firing Expert in the Corps, shooting with the rifle team, and meeting some *real* rifle experts... I learned just how large the span is between people like Oswald and myself... and between my modest shooting ability and someone who is *REALLY* good. And my experience in the Corps has given me enough knowledge to be able to enjoy a good laugh at the ease with which people will charactorize the shots as easy. >>I suspect the second shooter at UT is the key to who shot JFK. An >>investigation of his military record should show marksmanship medals >>too. If they don't then - since it's 100% proven that he really did >>do the shootings at UT - it means that the USMC is covering up the >>event; and it also implies the marines are covering up Oswald's >>record. >***The USMC has no reason to cover up Oswald's record. He shot at relatively >close range- under 100 yards. >*** Why is it that experienced shooters invariably point out how difficult the shots were, while non-shooters attempt to claim how 'easy' the shots were? >>Either way, somebody ought to be looking into how the USMC and the >>other military branches train people to shoot like that. Here in >>Central Texas they are training lots of military personnel for the >>campaign in Central Asia. I sure hope they screen those people before >>they train them. Give me two weeks of your time, and I can get you to the same level Oswald was at. Just don't expect that it will mean as much as many people think. The evidence shows that Oswald was *not* a 'natural' shot, and never improved over his bootcamp scores... in fact, he got worse. PRIOR REFERENCE As stated elsewhere, I have neither attempted to duplicate Superman's flying ability, nor have I attempted to duplicate the shooting ability reportedly atributed to LHO by the WC. I am neither stupid enough to think that I can fly, nor am I more qualified than many who have attempted to get off three well aimed shots utilizing the 91/38 Carcano, in 5.6 seconds elapsed time. But then again, I was never so misguided as to believe the WC's shot/shooting sequence senario either. Now! As stated, go back to some good shooters with the information which was long ago provided and thereafter exactly how good one has to be to pull off such a shooting feat. Try this, then the "test" will not be "rigged" by the WC's misguided/mis-directed efforts. 1. First Shot: Slant distance---185 ft. (62 yards). 5.8 seconds thereafter: 2. Second Shot: Slant distance----265 ft. (88 yards) 2.3 seconds thereafter: 3. Third Shot: Slant distance------295 ft. (98 yards) Bench Rest position for shots# 1 and #2. Standing position leaning against wall for shot#3. Scope usage for shots# 1 and #2. Iron sights for shot#3. Everything which LHO shot at in the USMC marksmanship training, began at a distance of 200 yards. Now! As every Marine knows: EVERY MARINE IS A RIFLEMAN! The USMC rifle training, by far exceeds any other training of any other branch of the Military Services. They are ALWAYS deemed a "RIFLEMAN FIRST"! Other services, including the US Army, only give the most basic of rifle training during the 8-weeks of basic training. Thereafter, if one is going to be an 11Bravo (Infantry Rifleman), his rifle marksmanship is expanded considerably during his 8-week program of training which gives him his military MOS. Cooks; truck drivers; supply personnel; etc; etc; etc; in the US Army, thereafter get very little additional rifle marksmanship training, and are nowhere near the normal proficiency of the USMC personnel. If and when you ask anyone (preferably USMC personnel who know what we are speaking of) ask them if a score of 49 out of a maximum of 50 points for the 200 yard Rapid Fire sequence of marksmanship qualification sounds like someone who was a poor shot. One might even ask if a score of 48 out of a maximum of 50 point for the same 200 yard Rapid Fire sequence sounded like someone who was a poor shot. P.S. Math also is "supposed" to count. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pre-Qualification shooting of LHO 200 Yard Rapid Fire Friday, Dec 21 (Qualification): Score of 48 out of maximum of possible 50. Thursday, December 20 (practice): Score of 43 out of maximum of possible 50. Wednesday, December 19 (practice): Score of 49 out of maximum of possible 50. Tuesday, December 18 (practice): Score of 73 out of maximum of possible 80. Monday, December 17 (practice): Appears to be a score of 46 out of maximum of possible 50. Thursday: (prior week) first day of shooting practice: Score of 24 out of maximum of possible 25. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It appears that this 200 yard rapid fire shooting was from the sitting position, and this also represents some of the best shooting of/by LHO. And, the above results demonstrate that LHO was quite proficient with the rifle, in a rapid fire exercise, at a range of 200 yards, which happens to be twice the distance of the longest shot made in Dealy Plaza. What most are unaware of in the shooting skills of LHO (& all Marines), is that their qualification, not unlike he ACT/GED/etc; etc; etc;. is based on shooting ability from a number of different shootingj positions, from a variety of ranges/distances. Therefore, one could shoot absolutely perfect scores at shorter ranges and from stable firing positions, yet do badly on other portions of the course at longer ranges and different positions, and only therefore only qualify to the basic minimum "Marksman" or "Sharpshooter" ability. For all practical purposes, LHO initially began shooting in the high "EXPERT" range for the 200 yard-rapid fire exercise, from the sitting position. And, even on the day in which he qualified at only barely a "Sharpshooter", he still was in the 96 percentile rating for this particular portion of the qualification which was for the shorter ranges from a stable firing position (sitting). The USMC rifle qualification requires shooting from the sitting position; kneeling position; prone position; and unfortunately for many, the "Off-Hand" position, which is standing with absolutely nothing except the feet on the ground for firing position/platform stability. In addition, ranges for qualification begin at the 200 yard mark and thereafter progress to 300 yard targets, and then to 500 yard targets. So, based on LHO's initial/entry shooting ability, as well as his shooting skill at the time of qualification, one can rest assured that they did not want LHO to be shooting at them at a distance of 200 yards, in a rapid-fire condition, when he had a stable/sitting position. And, without going through all of the specifics of his shooting ability at the 300 yard/rapid fire portion of final qualification, it should suffice to demonstrate that he fired a score of 46 out of a maximum possible score of 50, on this portion of qualification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hogan Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 (edited) Warren Commission Testimony of Dean Andrews (11H 330) Mr. Andrews: There's three people I am going to find: One of them is the real guy that killed the President; the Mexican; and Clay Bertrand. Mr. Liebeler: Do you mean to suggest by that statement that you have considerable doubt in your mind that Oswald killed the President? Mr. Andrews: I know good and well he did not. With that weapon, he couldn't have been capable of making three controlled shots in that short time. (Emphasis added) Mr. Liebeler: You are basing your opinion on reports that you have received over news media as to how many shots were fired in what period of time; is that correct? Mr. Andrews: I am basing my opinion on five years as an ordnanceman in the Navy. You can lean into those things, and with throwing the bolts--if I couldn't do it myself, 8 hours a day, doing this for a living, constantly on the range, I know this civilian couldn't do it. He might have been a sharp marksman at one time, but if you don't lean into that rifle and don't squeeze and control consistently, your brain can tell you how to do it, but you don't have the capability. Mr. Liebeler: You have used a pronoun in this last series of statements, the pronoun "it." You are making certain assumptions as to what actually happened, or you have a certain notion in your mind as to what happened based on material you read in the newspaper? Mr. Andrews: It doesn't make any difference. What you have to do is lean into a weapon, and, to fire three shots controlled with accuracy, this boy couldn't do it. Forget the President. Mr. Liebeler: You base that judgment on the fact that, in your own experience, it is difficult to do that sort of thing? Mr. Andrews: You have to stay with it. You just don't pick up a rifle or a pistol or whatever weapon you are using and stay proficient with it. You have to know what you are doing. You have to be a conniver. This boy could have connived the deal, but I think he is a patsy. Somebody else pulled the trigger. Mr. Liebeler: However, as we have indicated, it is your opinion. You don't have any evidence other than what you have already told us about your surmise and opinions about the rifle on which to base that statement; is that correct? If you do, I want to know what it is. Mr. Andrews. If I did, I would give it to you. It's just taking the 5 years and thinking about it a bit. I have fired as much as 40,000 rounds of ammo a day for 7 days a week. You get pretty good with it as long as you keep firing. Then I have gone back after 2 weeks. I used to be able to take a shotgun, go on a skeet, and pop 100 out of 100. After 2 weeks, I could only pop 60 of them. I would have to start shooting again, same way with the rifle and machineguns. Every other person I knew, same thing happened to them. You just have to stay at it. Edited November 21, 2006 by Michael Hogan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashton Gray Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 (edited) About time to destroy the myth that LHO was a poor marksman. Do you actually think that anyone wanting to set up a patsy for the JFK assassination would have chosen someone who was a "poor marksman"? By all means, do go right ahead and "destroy the myth." Please destroy it for all time. Let me know if there is any way I can help, won't you? Ashton Gray Edited November 21, 2006 by Ashton Gray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dolva Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 (edited) 0.96 0.86 0.98 0.9125 0.92 0.96 0.93 http://nces.ed.gov/nceskids/createagraph/d...2c2291b2666764a (image) Tom, does this mean that on each of these shootings the shooter continuousy, or the target continuously changes or is one set of shootings in the same position/range? What sort of pressure is a shooter put under during these tests? AFAIK: It also is one thing to shoot at a target. Shooting at a human being is an entirely different thing. Totally different. And certainly if it's the first time then the energy in the mind/body can be extremely intrusive. I think this is often forgotten in the rather blase' discussions of shooting ability. I don't think any amount of self talk can change that. Oswald must have been the sort of person who freezes emotionally in that situation. Was he that sort of person. Sounds like psychopathic. Not even the WC accused him of that. He seemed like quite a feeling sort of person. Here we have Oswalds score rising to 100 under extreme psychological conditions while shooting down at a moving target. Does that make sense? I ask this as it doesn't seem to make sense to me, but it's based on ignorance of shooting in general and no personal experience. Edited November 21, 2006 by John Dolva Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted November 21, 2006 Author Share Posted November 21, 2006 The topic subject matter is regarding LHO's shooting ability. It IS NOT in regards to the WC lie/misrepresentation as to the time frame in which the three shots which were fired. If one is so stupid and so lacks research ability that they are not aware that the WC shooting scenario and their "THE SHOT THAT MISSED" is another of their "slight" sleight-of-hand tricks, then it is most unlikely that they will ever resolve anything, in another 40+ years. For years, researchers have reported about what a poor shot LHO was. Yet, not unlike most other aspects of the JFK assassination, they truly did not do their homework. And, thus they were lead into another rabbit hole. After initial "zero" and establishment of elevation and windage settings, LHO stepped up to the plate and fired five rounds, rapid fire, at a target that was 200 yards down range. His score was a 24 our of a possible maximum of 25, and four of the rounds fired struck within a shot pattern grouping of less than a 4-inch square. Now, to LHO's final Range Fire Qualification on December 21: The USMC Range Fire Qualification consisted of firing on five (5) different firing stations, which were: a. 200 yard Rapid Fire b. 300 yard Rapid Fire c. 200 yard Slow d. 300 yard Slow e. 500 yard Slow Each station carried a weight/maximum points of 50 points, for 250 points maximum score. Marksmanship qualifications ratings for the earned scores were: a. 190 to 209 score-----------------Marksman b. 210 to 219 score-----------------Sharpshooter c. 220 to 250 score-----------------Expert Therefore, one had to shoot in the 88th percentile or above, in order to attain the "EXPERT" qualification. (220 divided by 250 = .88) December 21 Range Fire Qualification of LHO: 1. 200 yard Rapid Fire:-------------Score: 48 out of possible 50--------% rating:---96% Classification for this shooting station:---------UPPER EXPERT range. 2. 300 yard Rapid Fire:-------------Score: 46 out of possible 50--------% rating:--92% Classification for this shooting station:---------UPPER EXPERT range. 3. 500 yard Slow Fire:--------------Score: 46 out of possible 50--------% rating:--92% Classification for this shooting station:--------UPPER EXPERT range. 4. 200 yard Slow Fire:--------------Score: 39 out of possible 50--------% rating:--78% Classification for this shooting station:--------- BOTTOM range for Marksman qualification. 5. 300 yard Slow Fire:--------------Score: 33 out of possible 50--------% rating:--66% Classification for this shooting station:-------Failure. Does not even qualify for Marksman. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now! The 200 yard Rapid Fire was shot from the sitting position. The 300 yard Raid Fire was shot from the prone position. The 500 yard Slow Fire was shot from the prone position. The 200 yard Slow Fire was shot from the off-hand (standing position)* The 300 yard slow fire appears to have been from the kneeling position.** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- * The 200 yard SLOW FIRE station is shot from the Off-Hand/ standing position in which the shooter must provide the stable platform for firing. It is one of the most difficult shooting positions for most to master and requires considerable concentration along with breathing control, etc;. **Although the 300 yard "SLOW-FIRE" station was a complete failure for LHO, it is noted that wind speeds had increased from virtually ZERO at previous stations to 5mph by the time that he fired this station. And, during this firing station, his "Windage" sight adjustment was changed through four different adjustments in an attempt to get the correct sighting which would compensate for the wind speed increase. Even with this, LHO managed a relative good "shot grouping", just that they were all concentrated just below and to the right of target center. The 300 yard Slow Fire was shot from the kneeling position. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From this information, and that which demonstrates that LHO entered the USMC shooting virtually EXPERT from any stable firing position, one can see that given a fixed firing position such as a bench rest and/or a window ledge and cardboard boxes to sit and rest on, LHO easily fired in the UPPER EXPERT ranges for the USMC qualification. His capability for "Free-Hand"/Off-Hand/standing & unsupported firing was marginal, and his virtual failure at the 300 yard Slow-Fire station is directly attributal to repeated attempts to correct for an increase in wind speed by changing his windage adjustment through 4 different positions through the course of the 10 shots fired. Anyone who thinks that LHO was not an excellent shot, knows little of what they speak. Now, had he been standing in the middle of a cow pasture with absolutely no means of support, then he most probably would have missed JFK on at least one of the three shots. He was not in a cow pasture. He was, for all practical purposes, firing from a sitting/bench rest position in which he could support his entire arms as well as the weapon for shooting accuracy. (see Bench Rest for shooting accuracy). From which position, LHO entered the USMC shooting virtually uppermost ranges for EXPERT, and qualified on December 21 in the uppermost ranges for EXPERT, in a rapid-fire shooting environment. Ask a Marine shooter about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted November 21, 2006 Author Share Posted November 21, 2006 TOP POST! For whatever reason, the below was initially lost. The topic subject matter is regarding LHO's shooting ability.It IS NOT in regards to the WC lie/misrepresentation as to the time frame in which the three shots which were fired. If one is so stupid and so lacks research ability that they are not aware that the WC shooting scenario and their "THE SHOT THAT MISSED" is another of their "slight" sleight-of-hand tricks, then it is most unlikely that they will ever resolve anything, in another 40+ years. For years, researchers have reported about what a poor shot LHO was. Yet, not unlike most other aspects of the JFK assassination, they truly did not do their homework. And, thus they were lead into another rabbit hole. After initial "zero" and establishment of elevation and windage settings, LHO stepped up to the plate and fired five rounds, rapid fire, at a target that was 200 yards down range. His score was a 24 our of a possible maximum of 25, and four of the rounds fired struck within a shot pattern grouping of less than a 4-inch square. Now, to LHO's final Range Fire Qualification on December 21: The USMC Range Fire Qualification consisted of firing on five (5) different firing stations, which were: a. 200 yard Rapid Fire b. 300 yard Rapid Fire c. 200 yard Slow d. 300 yard Slow e. 500 yard Slow Each station carried a weight/maximum points of 50 points, for 250 points maximum score. Marksmanship qualifications ratings for the earned scores were: a. 190 to 209 score-----------------Marksman b. 210 to 219 score-----------------Sharpshooter c. 220 to 250 score-----------------Expert Therefore, one had to shoot in the 88th percentile or above, in order to attain the "EXPERT" qualification. (220 divided by 250 = .88) December 21 Range Fire Qualification of LHO: 1. 200 yard Rapid Fire:-------------Score: 48 out of possible 50--------% rating:---96% Classification for this shooting station:---------UPPER EXPERT range. 2. 300 yard Rapid Fire:-------------Score: 46 out of possible 50--------% rating:--92% Classification for this shooting station:---------UPPER EXPERT range. 3. 500 yard Slow Fire:--------------Score: 46 out of possible 50--------% rating:--92% Classification for this shooting station:--------UPPER EXPERT range. 4. 200 yard Slow Fire:--------------Score: 39 out of possible 50--------% rating:--78% Classification for this shooting station:--------- BOTTOM range for Marksman qualification. 5. 300 yard Slow Fire:--------------Score: 33 out of possible 50--------% rating:--66% Classification for this shooting station:-------Failure. Does not even qualify for Marksman. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now! The 200 yard Rapid Fire was shot from the sitting position. The 300 yard Raid Fire was shot from the prone position. The 500 yard Slow Fire was shot from the prone position. The 200 yard Slow Fire was shot from the off-hand (standing position)* The 300 yard slow fire appears to have been from the kneeling position.** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- * The 200 yard SLOW FIRE station is shot from the Off-Hand/ standing position in which the shooter must provide the stable platform for firing. It is one of the most difficult shooting positions for most to master and requires considerable concentration along with breathing control, etc;. **Although the 300 yard "SLOW-FIRE" station was a complete failure for LHO, it is noted that wind speeds had increased from virtually ZERO at previous stations to 5mph by the time that he fired this station. And, during this firing station, his "Windage" sight adjustment was changed through four different adjustments in an attempt to get the correct sighting which would compensate for the wind speed increase. Even with this, LHO managed a relative good "shot grouping", just that they were all concentrated just below and to the right of target center. The 300 yard Slow Fire was shot from the kneeling position. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From this information, and that which demonstrates that LHO entered the USMC shooting virtually EXPERT from any stable firing position, one can see that given a fixed firing position such as a bench rest and/or a window ledge and cardboard boxes to sit and rest on, LHO easily fired in the UPPER EXPERT ranges for the USMC qualification. His capability for "Free-Hand"/Off-Hand/standing & unsupported firing was marginal, and his virtual failure at the 300 yard Slow-Fire station is directly attributal to repeated attempts to correct for an increase in wind speed by changing his windage adjustment through 4 different positions through the course of the 10 shots fired. Anyone who thinks that LHO was not an excellent shot, knows little of what they speak. Now, had he been standing in the middle of a cow pasture with absolutely no means of support, then he most probably would have missed JFK on at least one of the three shots. He was not in a cow pasture. He was, for all practical purposes, firing from a sitting/bench rest position in which he could support his entire arms as well as the weapon for shooting accuracy. (see Bench Rest for shooting accuracy). From which position, LHO entered the USMC shooting virtually uppermost ranges for EXPERT, and qualified on December 21 in the uppermost ranges for EXPERT, in a rapid-fire shooting environment. Ask a Marine shooter about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted November 21, 2006 Author Share Posted November 21, 2006 TOP POST!For whatever reason, the below was initially lost. The topic subject matter is regarding LHO's shooting ability. It IS NOT in regards to the WC lie/misrepresentation as to the time frame in which the three shots which were fired. If one is so stupid and so lacks research ability that they are not aware that the WC shooting scenario and their "THE SHOT THAT MISSED" is another of their "slight" sleight-of-hand tricks, then it is most unlikely that they will ever resolve anything, in another 40+ years. For years, researchers have reported about what a poor shot LHO was. Yet, not unlike most other aspects of the JFK assassination, they truly did not do their homework. And, thus they were lead into another rabbit hole. After initial "zero" and establishment of elevation and windage settings, LHO stepped up to the plate and fired five rounds, rapid fire, at a target that was 200 yards down range. His score was a 24 our of a possible maximum of 25, and four of the rounds fired struck within a shot pattern grouping of less than a 4-inch square. Now, to LHO's final Range Fire Qualification on December 21: The USMC Range Fire Qualification consisted of firing on five (5) different firing stations, which were: a. 200 yard Rapid Fire b. 300 yard Rapid Fire c. 200 yard Slow d. 300 yard Slow e. 500 yard Slow Each station carried a weight/maximum points of 50 points, for 250 points maximum score. Marksmanship qualifications ratings for the earned scores were: a. 190 to 209 score-----------------Marksman b. 210 to 219 score-----------------Sharpshooter c. 220 to 250 score-----------------Expert Therefore, one had to shoot in the 88th percentile or above, in order to attain the "EXPERT" qualification. (220 divided by 250 = .88) December 21 Range Fire Qualification of LHO: 1. 200 yard Rapid Fire:-------------Score: 48 out of possible 50--------% rating:---96% Classification for this shooting station:---------UPPER EXPERT range. 2. 300 yard Rapid Fire:-------------Score: 46 out of possible 50--------% rating:--92% Classification for this shooting station:---------UPPER EXPERT range. 3. 500 yard Slow Fire:--------------Score: 46 out of possible 50--------% rating:--92% Classification for this shooting station:--------UPPER EXPERT range. 4. 200 yard Slow Fire:--------------Score: 39 out of possible 50--------% rating:--78% Classification for this shooting station:--------- BOTTOM range for Marksman qualification. 5. 300 yard Slow Fire:--------------Score: 33 out of possible 50--------% rating:--66% Classification for this shooting station:-------Failure. Does not even qualify for Marksman. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now! The 200 yard Rapid Fire was shot from the sitting position. The 300 yard Raid Fire was shot from the prone position. The 500 yard Slow Fire was shot from the prone position. The 200 yard Slow Fire was shot from the off-hand (standing position)* The 300 yard slow fire appears to have been from the kneeling position.** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- * The 200 yard SLOW FIRE station is shot from the Off-Hand/ standing position in which the shooter must provide the stable platform for firing. It is one of the most difficult shooting positions for most to master and requires considerable concentration along with breathing control, etc;. **Although the 300 yard "SLOW-FIRE" station was a complete failure for LHO, it is noted that wind speeds had increased from virtually ZERO at previous stations to 5mph by the time that he fired this station. And, during this firing station, his "Windage" sight adjustment was changed through four different adjustments in an attempt to get the correct sighting which would compensate for the wind speed increase. Even with this, LHO managed a relative good "shot grouping", just that they were all concentrated just below and to the right of target center. The 300 yard Slow Fire was shot from the kneeling position. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From this information, and that which demonstrates that LHO entered the USMC shooting virtually EXPERT from any stable firing position, one can see that given a fixed firing position such as a bench rest and/or a window ledge and cardboard boxes to sit and rest on, LHO easily fired in the UPPER EXPERT ranges for the USMC qualification. His capability for "Free-Hand"/Off-Hand/standing & unsupported firing was marginal, and his virtual failure at the 300 yard Slow-Fire station is directly attributal to repeated attempts to correct for an increase in wind speed by changing his windage adjustment through 4 different positions through the course of the 10 shots fired. Anyone who thinks that LHO was not an excellent shot, knows little of what they speak. Now, had he been standing in the middle of a cow pasture with absolutely no means of support, then he most probably would have missed JFK on at least one of the three shots. He was not in a cow pasture. He was, for all practical purposes, firing from a sitting/bench rest position in which he could support his entire arms as well as the weapon for shooting accuracy. (see Bench Rest for shooting accuracy). From which position, LHO entered the USMC shooting virtually uppermost ranges for EXPERT, and qualified on December 21 in the uppermost ranges for EXPERT, in a rapid-fire shooting environment. Ask a Marine shooter about this. SHOT:[/b] 1. Sitting/bench rest position/Distance:----------62 yards.* *Marines are normally expected to use only their bayonet at these short ranges. (conserves ammo) 2. Sitting/bench rest position/Distance:---------88 yards.** ** Normally, Marines are expected to throw rocks at these distances and short ranges. (conserves ammo) 3. Standing/leaning support/wall to lean against/Distance: 98 yards.*** ***Two yards shy of where a Marine is expected to actually expend ammo. One can get by with shooting in claiming a mis-judge of distance and thinking that the target was actually 100 yards away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Raymond Carroll Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 The topic subject matter is regarding LHO's shooting ability. Actually the topic's subject, if it is to be relevant, is Lee Oswald's shooting ability in November 1963, not his ability some 5 or so years earlier, when he was practising regularly. Mr. Purvis: why do you keep avoiding the question I posted earlier on this thread, namely, "Is it not the case that even a skilled marksman needs regular practice to maintain his skill, just like a violinist or a trumpet-player? Lee Oswald's life has probably been scrutinized in greater detail than any other private citizen in history, but where is the evidence that he practised marksmanship in the weeks/months preceding the assassination?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evan Marshall Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 The topic subject matter is regarding LHO's shooting ability. Actually the topic's subject, if it is to be relevant, is Lee Oswald's shooting ability in November 1963, not his ability some 5 or so years earlier, when he was practising regularly. Mr. Purvis: why do you keep avoiding the question I posted earlier on this thread, namely, "Is it not the case that even a skilled marksman needs regular practice to maintain his skill, just like a violinist or a trumpet-player? Lee Oswald's life has probably been scrutinized in greater detail than any other private citizen in history, but where is the evidence that he practised marksmanship in the weeks/months preceding the assassination?" not a Marine Sharpshooter, just a former police sniper, swat instructor, and former contract instructor for a Fed Agency with direct counter-terrorist responsibilities. shooting at a target below you thats moving away from you is not the same as shooting from a rest at a target a known distance away. If Oswald was so high speed why did he try and do it with a piece of junk rifle instead of just stealing a quality rifle. evan marshall www.stoppingpower.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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