New witness, 85 yrs. old, discloses seeing new shooter

[Duke Lane]

... She said that she was parked behind the TSBD - and saw a man who was built similarly to Oswald come running from the back of the building carrying a high-powered rifle with a telescopic sight. I believe she said it was a "buff-colored" Plymouth that he got into - which had been there waiting. It was being driven by a husky, darker-complected man who had bushy eyebrows and a hat - and had given her an unfriendly, disapproving stare. She said that prior to the man with the rifle exiting the building, a policeman (whom she thought may have been Tippit) had apparently approached the driver of the Plymouth - and had indicated that he should move his car. The driver did not respond immediately and the car continued to sit there for awhile longer. The host of the show asked if she would be willing to take a lie detector test, to which she agreed - and they were going to arrange for that to happen.

I was listening to the radio show when the new witness called in. It is my recollection that she said the police officer, whom she claimed was Tippit, told the driver to move the car, which he reluctantly did. So when the shooter exited the building running soon thereafter he was perplexed for a moment as the car was not where it should have been but was instead in a nearby location where it could not be seen.

The shooter, holding the rifle, then started running at a gallop with his jacket blowing in the wind towards a nearby tunnel under a road and the police officer immediately pursued him in his vehicle. That was the last that was seen by the new witness. She did say that she later learned that the driver of the car that was forced to move was named "Elrod." ...

Thanks Mr. Caddy. It could work with Worrell's account. It's hard to imagine that you would run with a weapon in your hands of course, and not be seen by anyone else. Sam Pate could then have arrived after the fact and seen Worrell. I forget - Couch? Had the cops chasing someone.

... Very curious. Too bad the woman's identity is unknown - could at least show her a photo of John Elrod, Malcolm Wallace and a few other folks.

Edit - anyone know if Elrod wore his hair long? The kind of car he was driving when he was arrested?

Edit #2 - this is itching. A buff colored Plymouth could match the description of the car parked in Lee Vida Whatley's space that morning. How does she know it was a Plymouth? What kind of car was she driving? Where exactly was she parked, and why would she be sitting in her car while the motorcade was passing? If she saw him run towards a tunnel under a road - is this the triple underpass? Could this then be the same man as seen by Jean Hill? How could the cops have given chase in a vehicle? Does the man running get into the Plymouth or keep running? How did she manage to learn the driver's name afterwards? What color was the running man's jacket? A dark grey sportscoat?

Was there another cop that resembled Tippit? What on earth would make her think Tippit was there?

Too many unknown variables here to work with - it's a shame we can't get more info.

To quote the eminent researcher David Perry regarding Elrod:

Over the last few years there has been a rash of what I call John F. Kennedy assassination "groupies." The assembly includes the likes of Ricky White, Chauncey Holt and Jim Files. All have come forward claiming they have something valuable to contribute to assassination lore. Of course, these people required a publicist. Someone that could "investigate" the story in such fashion that it is half way believable, at least to those with little knowledge of events.

The above story seems to fall into that category.

A key question among those above is "How did she manage to learn the driver's name afterwards?" How indeed! If there's no credible way that she could have accomplished that, then the whole story falls apart.

Lee, you noted:

Shortly after the assassination of the President, ELROD, who had been about two and one half miles from the scene of the assassination at Lem[m]on and Oaklawn Streets in Dallas, was arrested by the Dallas Police Department and placed in the City Jail. His arrest had nothing to do with the assassination of the President.

... which is apparently not quite accurate, whatever the source. According to the Dallas City Archives' Police "Arrest Report on Investigative Prisoner" for John Franklin Elrod dated 11/22/63 at 2:45 p.m.:

This man was arrested on railroad tracks a few minutes after [a] radio call was dispatched that [a] man was walking along railroad carrying a rifle.

This man was not carrying a rifle at the time of his arrest

. This suspect is unemployed, states he has been in Dallas for two weeks. Lost his job last week at El Fenix [Restaurant], states he has been arrested for theft and D.W.I.

[emphasis added]

Perhaps the end result of his arrest "had nothing to do with the assassination of the President," but clearly his initial arrest did, or was at least a "definite maybe" at that point in time.

The arresting officer is listed as C.M. Barnhart, who was a motorcycle officer. His own broadcast of detaining a "drunk" ("... arrested for theft and D.W.I.?") is at 1:08 on Channel 1; he is unit #261. He had first stopped the man and asked for a description of the shooter, which dispatch radioed back was "... a white male, thirty, slender build, five feet ten, a hundred and sixty-five pounds, armed with a .30 caliber rifle." Barnhart said that he had "a white male that fits that description in size. He's drunk" at the dead end of Laws Street, which is near the west end of the railroad yard.

The arrest report - or news reports about it - is one way that the new "witness" could have learned Elrod's name, but of course, Elrod wasn't driving a car when he was arrested, so clearly - and at best - she got her subjects mixed up: if Elrod was either of the two men she'd claimed to have seen, he would have to have been the man supposedly carrying a rifle, not the driver of the car. That being the case, she is either confused or full of it.

Personally, I think that calling into a radio show anonymously with claims that seem to "tie everything together" (i.e., Tippit at the assassination scene chasing "cohort" John Elrod, whom nobody has ever claimed was a shooter anyway, in a car nobody ever said he was driving anyway) tends toward the latter explanation.

It seems like, at the least, she needs a better publicist!

Consider also that there was only one block in which she - or "Elrod" - could have been parked on Houston Street before construction began: where could she have possibly been parked - and, as you'd asked, why would she be parked on a side street sitting in her car when the motorcade went by anyway, or more markedly, why she'd be sitting there after the shooting calmly enough to notice and remember all these details - that cops would supposedly order "Elrod" to move, but not her?

Aren't there photos showing vehicles that were parked on Houston Street?

Other aspects between the Pate and Worrell stories: Pate could not have arrived at TSBD any sooner than four minutes after the shooting at the very soonest, based on his whereabouts, what he'd seen, and the driving time it takes to get from where he was to TSBD. Worrell claimed to have taken off running even before the last shot had been fired, and never claimed to have dallied any four or five minutes. Ergo ...?

Finally, don't forget the testimony of James Romack, who said he'd been watching the back of the TSBD and saw nobody come out, with or without a rifle. It's been speculated that someone could've come out of the building while he was moving the construction barricade for Pate, but we know about what time that was - 12:34-12:36 - and that it didn't take long, so an awful lot of stuff had to transpire in a very limited time span, and the only brief time span when Romack wasn't watching the doors.

That there may be "too many unknown variables here to work with," the ones that are known seem to render the rest of them completely moot. There may be "unknown variables," but they're not necessarily - and seem unlikely to be - related.

[Duke Lane]

[duplicate post deleted]

[Lee Forman]

... She said that she was parked behind the TSBD - and saw a man who was built similarly to Oswald come running from the back of the building carrying a high-powered rifle with a telescopic sight. I believe she said it was a "buff-colored" Plymouth that he got into - which had been there waiting. It was being driven by a husky, darker-complected man who had bushy eyebrows and a hat - and had given her an unfriendly, disapproving stare. She said that prior to the man with the rifle exiting the building, a policeman (whom she thought may have been Tippit) had apparently approached the driver of the Plymouth - and had indicated that he should move his car. The driver did not respond immediately and the car continued to sit there for awhile longer. The host of the show asked if she would be willing to take a lie detector test, to which she agreed - and they were going to arrange for that to happen.

I was listening to the radio show when the new witness called in. It is my recollection that she said the police officer, whom she claimed was Tippit, told the driver to move the car, which he reluctantly did. So when the shooter exited the building running soon thereafter he was perplexed for a moment as the car was not where it should have been but was instead in a nearby location where it could not be seen.

The shooter, holding the rifle, then started running at a gallop with his jacket blowing in the wind towards a nearby tunnel under a road and the police officer immediately pursued him in his vehicle. That was the last that was seen by the new witness. She did say that she later learned that the driver of the car that was forced to move was named "Elrod." ...

Thanks Mr. Caddy. It could work with Worrell's account. It's hard to imagine that you would run with a weapon in your hands of course, and not be seen by anyone else. Sam Pate could then have arrived after the fact and seen Worrell. I forget - Couch? Had the cops chasing someone.

... Very curious. Too bad the woman's identity is unknown - could at least show her a photo of John Elrod, Malcolm Wallace and a few other folks.

Edit - anyone know if Elrod wore his hair long? The kind of car he was driving when he was arrested?

Edit #2 - this is itching. A buff colored Plymouth could match the description of the car parked in Lee Vida Whatley's space that morning. How does she know it was a Plymouth? What kind of car was she driving? Where exactly was she parked, and why would she be sitting in her car while the motorcade was passing? If she saw him run towards a tunnel under a road - is this the triple underpass? Could this then be the same man as seen by Jean Hill? How could the cops have given chase in a vehicle? Does the man running get into the Plymouth or keep running? How did she manage to learn the driver's name afterwards? What color was the running man's jacket? A dark grey sportscoat?

Was there another cop that resembled Tippit? What on earth would make her think Tippit was there?

Too many unknown variables here to work with - it's a shame we can't get more info.

To quote the eminent researcher David Perry regarding Elrod:

Over the last few years there has been a rash of what I call John F. Kennedy assassination "groupies." The assembly includes the likes of Ricky White, Chauncey Holt and Jim Files. All have come forward claiming they have something valuable to contribute to assassination lore. Of course, these people required a publicist. Someone that could "investigate" the story in such fashion that it is half way believable, at least to those with little knowledge of events.

The above story seems to fall into that category.

A key question among those above is "How did she manage to learn the driver's name afterwards?" How indeed! If there's no credible way that she could have accomplished that, then the whole story falls apart.

Lee, you noted:

Shortly after the assassination of the President, ELROD, who had been about two and one half miles from the scene of the assassination at Lem[m]on and Oaklawn Streets in Dallas, was arrested by the Dallas Police Department and placed in the City Jail. His arrest had nothing to do with the assassination of the President.

... which is apparently not quite accurate, whatever the source. According to the Dallas City Archives' Police "Arrest Report on Investigative Prisoner" for John Franklin Elrod dated 11/22/63 at 2:45 p.m.:

This man was arrested on railroad tracks a few minutes after [a] radio call was dispatched that [a] man was walking along railroad carrying a rifle.

This man was not carrying a rifle at the time of his arrest

. This suspect is unemployed, states he has been in Dallas for two weeks. Lost his job last week at El Fenix [Restaurant], states he has been arrested for theft and D.W.I.

[emphasis added]

Perhaps the end result of his arrest "had nothing to do with the assassination of the President," but clearly his initial arrest did, or was at least a "definite maybe" at that point in time.

The arresting officer is listed as C.M. Barnhart, who was a motorcycle officer. His own broadcast of detaining a "drunk" ("... arrested for theft and D.W.I.?") is at 1:08 on Channel 1; he is unit #261. He had first stopped the man and asked for a description of the shooter, which dispatch radioed back was "... a white male, thirty, slender build, five feet ten, a hundred and sixty-five pounds, armed with a .30 caliber rifle." Barnhart said that he had "a white male that fits that description in size. He's drunk" at the dead end of Laws Street, which is near the west end of the railroad yard.

The arrest report - or news reports about it - is one way that the new "witness" could have learned Elrod's name, but of course, Elrod wasn't driving a car when he was arrested, so clearly - and at best - she got her subjects mixed up: if Elrod was either of the two men she'd claimed to have seen, he would have to have been the man supposedly carrying a rifle, not the driver of the car. That being the case, she is either confused or full of it.

Personally, I think that calling into a radio show anonymously with claims that seem to "tie everything together" (i.e., Tippit at the assassination scene chasing "cohort" John Elrod, whom nobody has ever claimed was a shooter anyway, in a car nobody ever said he was driving anyway) tends toward the latter explanation.

It seems like, at the least, she needs a better publicist!

Consider also that there was only one block in which she - or "Elrod" - could have been parked on Houston Street before construction began: where could she have possibly been parked - and, as you'd asked, why would she be parked on a side street sitting in her car when the motorcade went by anyway, or more markedly, why she'd be sitting there after the shooting calmly enough to notice and remember all these details - that cops would supposedly order "Elrod" to move, but not her?

Aren't there photos showing vehicles that were parked on Houston Street?

Other aspects between the Pate and Worrell stories: Pate could not have arrived at TSBD any sooner than four minutes after the shooting at the very soonest, based on his whereabouts, what he'd seen, and the driving time it takes to get from where he was to TSBD. Worrell claimed to have taken off running even before the last shot had been fired, and never claimed to have dallied any four or five minutes. Ergo ...?

Finally, don't forget the testimony of James Romack, who said he'd been watching the back of the TSBD and saw nobody come out, with or without a rifle. It's been speculated that someone could've come out of the building while he was moving the construction barricade for Pate, but we know about what time that was - 12:34-12:36 - and that it didn't take long, so an awful lot of stuff had to transpire in a very limited time span, and the only brief time span when Romack wasn't watching the doors.

That there may be "too many unknown variables here to work with," the ones that are known seem to render the rest of them completely moot. There may be "unknown variables," but they're not necessarily - and seem unlikely to be - related.

Hey Duke.

It doesn't make a great deal of sense - granted. However, I think there is clearly something fishy going on here with Elrod and his stories - I thought it was Lonnie Ray Right - however, he doesn't match the description - does he? I will have to look over the arrest stuff again - I remember we ran through some of it - I think some was in that suspicious vehicle thread. Wait...got it - Steve Thomas is raising the same issue.

There are some pieces to the puzzle missing. Is the Falcon the same that was seen with Mathers plates and the LHO lookalike? Is it Vaganov in his very unique looking T-bird? Is something missing from the dictabelt? None of this makes any sense - however, who would call in a man seen running along the RR tracks with a rifle and be satisfied that the man found had no rifle? That's not logical. It's almost like Elrod played breakdown man and ran for it - was pursued, ditches the rifle, and then Lonnie steps in to play the tramp as cover-up. I love the description on his jacket. He's also NOT the only one possibly pretending to be drunk that was arrested that day - 'Larry Florer' used this same sham - very effective and I may use it myself one day - apparently it doesn't matter what time of day this particular technique is used - any dumb cop will fall for it. Wasn't there also some other account of another drunk tramp being arrested closer to the trains - I could be wrong on that - I couldn't find anything right away - thought maybe I read it on AJ Weberman's site. Okay - this one is going to bother me for awhile. I hope that this 85 year old lady caller can shed some additional light - like how she found out the name of the driver, for starters, but also to address the big disconnect in her account - which has the shooter with the rifle both getting into the car, and also running off into the distance.

Any ideas? I think this may actually be something significant - perhaps the role of the tramps in mud time is finally becoming clear - I know I never could figure out the Frost poem. Perhaps we have an answer to the Oswald beer and peanut brittle mystery. Alcohol on the breath to help out with an act in the event of being snagged.

Based on the timing of the dispatches, I believe the person being described below is Lonnie Ray Wright:

At 1:12 # 243 calls in on Channel 2. #243 is Patrolman B. L. Apple

“I’m down here with this three wheeler at the dead-end of Laurels (sic) and he has got black hair. He is 42 years old and got a light colored jacket on and he is pretty drunk but he has been walking down these railroad tracks. Do you want me to take him up there or what do you want me to do with him?"

Along the lines of suspicious vehicles, I have always found these exchanges intriguing:

According to CE 1974 at 23H885, at approximately 2:20PM, Unit 474A (which is only identified as the Special Services Bureau) is dispatched to pick up a "subject on this overpass, carrying a rifle; railroad tracks, Cobb Stadium." 474A was asked if he could see the subject. 474A said no, but that they would go over and get him.

At 2:23, Unit 22 (Patrolman L.L. Hill) was dispatched to go out to Cobb Stadium on the railroad track overpass and meet 474A at the railroad tracks. "There is a white male carrying a rifle" (23H886)

At 2:26, unit 562 (a wrecker) radioed in and said that he was at Cobb stadium "for that suspect's car" (23H887). The Dispatcher told the wrecker to wait there, that 474A will "be back in a minute".

At 2:27, Unit 52(unknown) radioed in and asked if the T.C. Cobb Stadium was on the Hines Blvd overpass, the railroad overpass, or the freeway overpass and asked which direction the suspect was walking. The Dispatcher's response was garbled, but said he didn't know about the direction. (23H887)

At 2:28 Patrolman Hill reported that he was with the wrecker at Cobb Stadium and Unit 474A was ordered to go there. (23H887)

474A radios in and says, "The car that we want picked up is on the parking lot if front of the Merchandise Mart just north of Cobb Stadium."

22 asks if it is a 1964 Falcon. 474A says, "No. It is a red panel truck with writing on the side... license plate 3E9087. (23H888)

The time on Elrod's Arrest Record is given as 2:45 pm.

As early as 2:03 PM, Unit 474A was calling for a wrecker. "We need a wrecker on the parking lot just west of Cobb's stadium for suspect's car." (23H881)

At 2:26, unit 562 (a wrecker) radioed in and said that he was at Cobb stadium "for that suspect's car" (23H887). The Dispatcher told the wrecker to wait there, that 474A will "be back in a minute".

What suspect was that? At 2:03 unit 474A is looking to pick up a "suspect's" car, but 474A wasn't dispatched to pick up the suspect walking on the railroad tracks until 2:20 PM. (23H885)

There follows as series of transmissions from 474A looking for Deputy Chief M.W. Stevenson and Lieutenant C.C. Wallace.

Steve Thomas

Edited December 30, 2006 by Lee Forman

[Joe Bauer]

On 11/27/2006 at 5:01 AM, Jack White said:

Not totally accurate. I was the very first RESEARCHER Groody told his story to,

and a few details above are not exactly right. The craniotomy was done

by Dr. Earl Rose at autopsy...NOT by Groody. Groody was an embalmer.

He did such things as repair the autopsy disfigurements. He took off the

skull cap and FILLED THE HEAD WITH "STYROFOAM" for stability before

repairing the reflected scalp. He placed the autopsied internal organs in

a plastic bag within the chest cavity. He wired the jaws together, etc.

There were other things done by Groody, WHO WAS PRESENT AT THE

DISINTERMENT AND START OF THE LINDA NORTON REAUTOPSY, that

were not consistent with Groody's handiwork. He is adamant that the

disinterred head was not connected to the body, and even described to

me that he saw the head put into a steel medical pan after the casket

was opened, and it rolled around in the pan. The Norton Report makes

no mention of the material Groody says he put inside the skull. There

is much more to indicate that the body may not have been LHO.

Jack

Remarkable.

[Paul Cummings]

1 hour ago, Joe Bauer said:

Remarkable.

I believe this was covered in TMWKK. Reopening Oswald's casket and he noticed the head being moved from what he previously remembered.

[Gerry Down]

Robert Groden says he has seen the exhumation video. You could ask him to know if Oswalds head was attached to the body or not.

[Vince Palamara]

On 11/27/2006 at 7:05 PM, Evan Marshall said:

my experiences with the polygraph were always less than satisfactory-you're at the mercy of the operator and what he or she decides is deception.

Velma at the 17:58 mark:

 

[Vince Palamara]

5 hours ago, Paul Cummings said:

I believe this was covered in TMWKK. Reopening Oswald's casket and he noticed the head being moved from what he previously remembered.

 

[Paul Cummings]

2 hours ago, Vince Palamara said:

 

I solved the mystery of Oswald's vault. It had to be Angleton. He was a sloppy dresser and sloppy at opening vaults. Case Closed.

[Greg Doudna]

7 hours ago, Vince Palamara said:

Velma at the 17:58 mark:

 

Thanks for this Vince, and thanks to Douglas Caddy. The link given to the full radio program isn't working, and the clip of Velma starting at 17:58 in Vince's above is cut off midway unfortunately. But below is my transcription of what it has. The notation <...> means the radio host or another voice in the studio, not Velma.

(A point of detail: Velma did not say the car was "buff" colored but "gray, dove colored". There is a color called "dove gray" which is defined as "a color of gray with a hint of blue, sometimes described as blue-gray".)

START TRANSCRIPT

<Let's go to our final caller, with you Alex, first-time caller. Hi there>

Hello?

<Yeah, go ahead please>

Uh, I am Velma, and I live a hundred miles from Dallas. I was living in Dallas at the time. And I had my car parked behind that Texas Depository Book Building?

<Yes, ma'am>

I saw the shooter came out and he had a very high powered rifle. It was no bolt action. And, uh,--

<Well now let me ask you please, because that rifle that they said Oswald used to kill Kennedy was apparently left upstairs.>

It was.

<You're saying you saw someone else?>

Yes sir.

<With a high-powered rifle.>

Yes.

<OK, tell me what happened then.>

OK, I'm sitting in my car and there's a gray, dove-colored old one-seated Plymouth car sittin' there. And there's a man with a felt hat on with a wide band, and he had on a suit, and he had black hair and real heavy eyebrows, and he'd look at me kind of dirty. Well about that time a police car come and told that man to move. And he didn't move right away. And the police got out of his car, and I knew later it was Tippit, and he told him, he said, "I said move that car!" Well then, this man, that's in this old gray car, he went straight on around and went around this big building that was across the street from me. Tippit went the other way, so they must have met back there. Anyway this man--

(different voice) <There were dozens of witnesses that saw-- >

<Let me ask you this Alex, because we're ready to hit the hour now, did you say this to the Warren Commission, or to anybody else?>

I haven't told anybody, because, uh, I didn't want--I had four children I was having to support them, and I didn't want to get shot. And I saw the man, and I could tell you how he's dressed--

[cuts off] 

END TRANSCRIPT

Edited June 15, 2023 by Greg Doudna

[Greg Doudna]

Howard Brennan's version of the same thing Velma saw

From Howard Brennan, Eyewitness to History 1987), pp. 8, 16.

"While surveying the area, I glanced away to the side of the Depository Building and found something I could not understand. At that time there was a side entrance towards the rear of the building on Houston Street. At some point during the morning hours, the police had sealed off parking in that block and forced all cars to move. Saw horses were placed at Elm and Houston to block traffic. As I looked around I saw a lone car parked beside the School Depository with a white male seated behind the wheel. The car was an Oldsmobile, a 1955-57 model. It is difficult to tell the exact year unless one is an expert because all those years looked nearly alike. I remember wondering why all the other cars had been made to move and this one had not. 

"I didn't have the chance to study the driver carefully but he was wearing civilian clothes and appeared to be middle aged.

"One thing that interested me about the car was the way it was parked. The front left wheel was pulled sharply away from the curb and the driver had the door partially open. Later I wondered if the reason for this was so the car could make a quick U-turn in a speedy departure. As I was watching the man in the car I saw a policeman who was on foot walk over towards the car and begin talking to the man in a friendly, laughing manner. So far as I could see, there was no attempt made to get the man to move his car and after chatting for a minute or so, the policeman walked back to his post. It was this fact that made me think the police should have made some report about the presence of the car, but I have never seen any other account of this 'mystery car'.

(... [after the shots, Brennan finding a police officer]...)

"...He [the officer] grabbed my arm and we both ran to the front of the School Book Depository. I glanced back towards the street to the side of the building. The car I had seen PARKED there before the motorcade passed WAS GONE. Although only a few moments had elapsed and all exits were blocked except one, the car had disappeared. The policeman who had been talking to the driver was gone, but I assumed he was looking for the gunman.

"Many times since, especially in recent years, I have thought about the car parked alongside the Texas Book Depository and wondered where it came from and where it went. I have always wondered why the policeman allowed the car to be parked illegally beside the building with its wheels turned outward when other cars had been made to vacate the area. Of course, the paramount question in my mind was, 'Who was the man sitting behind the wheel that day?'

"As I watched the car, it never occurred to me that an assassination was about to take place and this might be the 'get-away' car. Even though I could not have positively identified the man behind the wheel, I can say this for certain. The man was white, middle-aged and dressed in civilian clothes. I didn't have an opportunity to study his face, so identification is impossible but I have always felt that somehow he was involved in the assassination.

"Later, I would remember, 'if that was a "get-away" car, why didn't it wait to pick up the killer?' Was it possible that he was being left on purpose? These questions and others tormented me for years after that experience and will never be fully answered. The one thing I knew for certain--there was a car there before the assassination and it disappeared before the assassin had time to get out of the building.**

" ** Authors note: Howard did not report the presence of the car beside the Book Depository Building initially because he did not make an association. Subsequent to that time he had already made a formal statement and probably realized that to insert this new item might cast some doubt on his testimony. He thus determined not to say anything he could not verify absolutely. In retrospect, he acknowledged he probably should have reported it, but he wanted to be sure his testimony would stand since it was critical."

Other witnesses of the same thing Velma saw

James Worrell said he saw a man come out of the rear of the TSBD, not carrying anything, running with a jacket flapping

15-yr old Amos Euins, said he saw a man "leaving hurriedly after the shooting" and said when he tried to tell he was told to be quiet about it, https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62490#relPageId=102).

Roger Craig, saw a running man come around the TSBD from the Houston side and run down to Elm and get in a station wagon, gave descriptions. 

Marvin C. Robinson driving a car on Elm behind that station wagon told of seeing a white man run and get into the station wagon ahead of him, which he called a "light colored Nash station wagon", https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=233493#relPageId=3 .

Richard Randolph Carr, from an HSCA staff report (https://spartacus-educational.com/JFKcarrR.htm) : "Carr was asked during the Shaw trial if he noticed any movement after the shots which seemed "unusual." Carr then said that he saw a Rambler station wagon with a rack on top parked on the wrong side of the street [on Houston], heading north and facing in the direction of the railroad tracks, next to the depository. Carr said that immediately after the shots he saw three men emerge from behind the depository and enter the station wagon. He gave a description of one of them: he was "real dark-complected" and appeared to be Spanish or Cuban; he drove the car away, going north on Houston Street. During the Shaw trial testimony, Carr said he had reported this information to law enforcement officers and that someone had told him not to repeat this information. At that point, defense counsel objected to hearsay by Carr, and no further details were elicited about the reported coercion of Carr, other than his statement that he did what the FBI told him to do, "I shut my mouth." 

Marion Meharg saw the same thing but misidentified the car as belonging to his ex-wife--said it was his ex-wife's white-over-green two-tone 1956 Chevy station wagon--and imagined his ex-wife's new husband (who had nothing to do with anything), a younger man his wife had left him for, was the shooter, in conspiracy with his ex-wife to assassinate JFK. Meharg phoned this claim in to the Dallas Police the day of the assassination according to what Alveeta Treon had in her notes (the operator who told of the Oswald call to John Hurt), and Meharg told the same to the FBI on Dec 12. I have talked to the younger son of Meharg and confirmed the son's stepfather (the one wrongly accused by Meharg of being the running man/assassin) and his mother's station wagon were in Atlanta, Georgia, where the boy was, on the day of the assassination Nov 22, 1963. The point of interest in the Meharg story is not the (sad, on a human level) saga of the wrong identification, but that he saw something in the first place which was not itself made up. However one point: I suspected Meharg may have viewed from the same approximate vantage point as Carr, so much so that it would not surprise me if Meharg and Carr had been acquainted or together that day. If so, he could not have seen the back of the TSBD, any more than could Carr from his vantage point, so as to know that the running man actually came out the rear door of the TSBD. But it would look that way from that vantage point seeing a man come running around from the back of the TSBD on to Houston. Also, if that is where Meharg was it would be too far away for Meharg to be able to read a license plate number. Very frustratingly, although the FBI talked to Meharg, there is no report that they ever asked him where his position was when he claimed to have seen what he saw, nor showed any interest in his story for its potential witness value. Either Meharg fed the license plate number of his ex-wife's car (a license number he had not really seen on the car that he did see) to the FBI, or his vantage point was closer than that of Carr, I suspect the former:   

"Meharg was then asked by the FBI Special Agents if he advised Alfred C. Ellington on December 2, 1963 as follows" "That within a matter of minutes after President Kennedy was shot, he observed a man come out of the Texas School Book Depository loading dock at the rear of the building, run across Houston Street and get into a 1956 green and white Chevrolet station wagon; that he further observed the license number on this vehicle and believes the first four digits were PW 17. He was further asked that did his former wife not own a 1956 green and white Chevrolet station wagon with a 1963 Texas license PW 1784." Meharg stated that he did furnish SA Ellington this information and advised that he was worried about his two boys who are in the custody of his former wife, Mildred, and is afraid she might have gotten mixed up in this affair. He stated he is sure he observed a 1956 green and white Chevrolet station wagon on Houston Street with Texas license starting with PW or PB or PF or something, and was afraid it was hers." (https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t585-the-case-of-the-nuisance-phone-calls-redux)

Edited June 15, 2023 by Greg Doudna

[Bill Fite]

I remember listening to C2C that night and being stunned by Velma's call.

What was puzzling was why the call screener or host would wait until the very end of the hour to put her on then cut her off without time for questioning her or suggesting actions that she could take to get her story out.  So, there is no verification of her age or presence in Dallas that day.

[Greg Doudna]

The unidentified Velma may also have had a name "Alex", since that is how the announcer addresses her, likely from a screened call-in note taken by an assistant handed to him before the host put her on the air. Why Velma would identify herself as "Alex" when phoning in before going on the air, and then "Velma" on the air, is not clear. Unless "Alex" was a daughter of Velma placing the call for Velma, my guess is "Alex" may have been her last name, with the radio host confusing a last name as a first name. Is it possible Velma might be identifiable making use of this other name used by the announcer, "Alex"? 

Just guessing ... but here is a "Velma Alex" (maiden name) of Texas who would have been 17 years old in 1963 (old enough to drive?). However her given location, "Harris County", Texas, looks closer to 200 miles from Dallas rather than the 100 Velma told the radio host.

Velma A Mickens of Texas was born c. 1946. Velma Mickens was married to Charles E. Mickens on April 5, 2009 in Harris County, Texas. Family, friend, or fan, this family history biography is for you to remember Velma A. (Alex) Mickens. (https://www.ancientfaces.com/person/velma-a-alex-mickens-birth-1946/96693709)

 

[Greg Doudna]

Velma's voice does sound elderly at the time of the radio interview, but "85" would not work with this Velma Alex b. 1946 because that Velma Alex would not be 85 until the year 2031. Is that "85" (age of Velma at the time of the radio call-in) accurate? (Mentioned above by someone in this thread.) Its not in the partial clip I transcribed. 

Also, Velma in the radio call-in referred to having four children, implied as maybe a single mother, as her reason for not reporting what she saw out of fear. If she was age 17 in 1963 she would not have four children, though Velma could be meaning that as a reason not to tell her story in later years too.

Edited June 15, 2023 by Greg Doudna

[Vince Palamara]

On 6/15/2023 at 10:30 AM, Greg Doudna said:

Velma's voice does sound elderly at the time of the radio interview, but "85" would not work with this Velma Alex b. 1946 because that Velma Alex would not be 85 until the year 2031. Is that "85" (age of Velma at the time of the radio call-in) accurate? (Mentioned above by someone in this thread.) Its not in the partial clip I transcribed. 

Also, Velma in the radio call-in referred to having four children, implied as maybe a single mother, as her reason for not reporting what she saw out of fear. If she was age 17 in 1963 she would not have four children, though Velma could be meaning that as a reason not to tell her story in later years too.

Thanks for all your comments and insights, Greg!