Missing Nix frames

[John Dolva]

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c168/yanndee/b.gif

is a 3 meg Z sequence overlapping with the end of the Nix posted above

(small version)

[Thomas H. Purvis]

John: (& anyone else)

Sometimes, we tend to get so wrapped up in a subject that we must take off our blinders and look around as well as look at ourselves.

There are frequently various means in which to accomplish some tasks, and sometimes the most simple of methods may get lost among the "big" thoughts.

As regards the Nix film, I do believe that we have several relatively well fixed position objects of reference in the background.

Such as concrete columns, and especially the right vertical edge of the concrete pedestal on which Mr. Zapruder was standing.

Additionally, we also have the given dimensions of the Presidential Limousine. (CE872)

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0447a.htm

So? Exactly how far did the Presidential Limousine move between Nix 10 & Nix 24?????

[John Dolva]

Tom, approximately 13.3 feet in 0.72 seconds

12.6 mph

However the average with the suggested missing frames in place is 10.5 - 11.2

and for the four frames before the first missing frame the speed is 8.4 mph

Edited December 1, 2006 by John Dolva

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Tom, approximately 13.3 feet in 0.72 seconds

12.6 mph

However the average with the suggested missing frames in place is 10.5 - 11.2

and for the four frames before the first missing frame the speed is 8.4 mph

Tom, approximately 13.3 feet in 0.72 seconds

Based on?

[John Dolva]

OK. WC frame 24 is my frame 25. Their frame 10 is 11. So the frames missing from the clip are indeed 4 and they must have left out frame 1 counting it as too blurry and the true headshot frame is two or three before the one they say is the headshot.

Now assuming that you mean their frame 10 and 24 I get the distance travelled during 14 frame transitions as ten feet. (see image) limo is 21.34 feet

Ten feet during 14/18.5 is average speed 9.0 mph. (please check) and for the four frames before the first missing frame the average speed is 8.4 mph

and for the eight frames after the wc 24 the average speed is 7.6 mph

Edited December 1, 2006 by John Dolva

[Thomas H. Purvis]

OK. WC frame 24 is my frame 25. Their frame 10 is 11. So the frames missing from the clip are indeed 4 and they must have left out frame 1 counting it as too blurry and the true headshot frame is two or three before the one they say is the headshot.

Now assuming that you mean their frame 10 and 24 I get the distance travelled during 14 frame transitions as ten feet. (see image) limo is 21.34 feet

Ten feet during 14/18.5 is average speed 9.0 mph. (please check) and for the four frames before the first missing frame the average speed is 8.4 mph

and for the eight frames after the wc 24 the average speed is 7.6 mph

Well now!

We certainly are coming closer to an understanding.

My "calibrated" eyeballs give me a distance travelled of 10.1066 feet in the 14 exposed frames.

Therefore (10.1066 divided by 14) = 0.7219 feet per exposed frame.

0.7219 X 18.5 (frames per second) = 13.35515 feet per second

X 60 = 801.309 feet per minute

X 60 = 48,078.54 feet per hour

divided by 5,280 = 9.105 miles per hour

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, were one to assume 4 missing frames and thereafter add them back in:

10.1066 divided by (now) 18 frames = 0.5614777 feet per frame.

0.5614777 X 18.5 = 10.387337 feet per second

X 60 =623.24002 feet per minute

X 60 =37,394.413 feet per hour

divided by 5,280 = 7.082 miles per hour.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All of which clearly demonstrates exactly how a few "omitted" frames can severely impact the presumed and calculated speed of the Presidential Limousine, when one is relying absolutely on counting frames of the films.

Just perhaps the "running man" did not have to run nearly as fast as some had previously thought.

[John Dolva]

Tom, you're jumping the gun. This is a work in progress and no conclusions are there yet.

Reread:

"WC frame 24 is my frame 25.

Their frame 10 is (my frame) 11. (IOW the same number of frames in between with the 4 missing counted)

So the frames >>>missing from the clip<<< are indeed 4 and they must have left out frame 1 counting it as too blurry and the true headshot frame is two or three before the one they say is the headshot"

I can't say whether the WC left out any particular frames. However >>this clip<< has frames missing in a suspect pattern. For this calculation I have already put the missing frames back, so you can't add them again.

The WC may have only left out the first frame. Or they may have left out another frame and shifted the count to hide that. What they certainly did do is to mislabel the headshot frame. And they used the average pre headshot speed as 11.2 while the more accurate would be around 7-9 for the second or so before the headshot. I've yet to compare the pre shot frames with the z film to see if gaps can be found that way. So stay skeptic and don't make hasty conclusions.

Still, it illustrates a problem I have to continually counter in mysef too which is to not let what I want to be in the way of what is.

Edited December 1, 2006 by John Dolva

[Robin Unger]

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c168/yanndee/b.gif

is a 3 meg Z sequence overlapping with the end of the Nix posted above

(small version)

Thanks for that LARGE gif John.

I watch it replay over and over again. !

Mezmerizing.

[Robin Unger]

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c168/yanndee/b.gif

is a 3 meg Z sequence overlapping with the end of the Nix posted above

(small version)

Thanks for that LARGE gif John.

I watch it replay over and over again. !

Mezmerizing.

[John Dolva]

You're welcome, Robin.

I do too. One begins to notice lots of minor details like how all the peripheral people move. Like Altgens and the couple, Hills leap and stumble etc. Also if you zoom in and watch Jackies hands and how she pushes Kennedy's head forward. Put it up on your site if you wish, (perhaps with a plug for the forum?)

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Tom, you're jumping the gun. This is a work in progress and no conclusions are there yet.

Reread:

"WC frame 24 is my frame 25.

Their frame 10 is (my frame) 11. (IOW the same number of frames in between with the 4 missing counted)

So the frames >>>missing from the clip<<< are indeed 4 and they must have left out frame 1 counting it as too blurry and the true headshot frame is two or three before the one they say is the headshot"

I can't say whether the WC left out any particular frames. However >>this clip<< has frames missing in a suspect pattern. For this calculation I have already put the missing frames back, so you can't add them again.

The WC may have only left out the first frame. Or they may have left out another frame and shifted the count to hide that. What they certainly did do is to mislabel the headshot frame. And they used the average pre headshot speed as 11.2 while the more accurate would be around 7-9 for the second or so before the headshot. I've yet to compare the pre shot frames with the z film to see if gaps can be found that way. So stay skeptic and don't make hasty conclusions.

Still, it illustrates a problem I have to continually counter in mysef too which is to not let what I want to be in the way of what is.

John;

Just giving some examples as to what ommission of frames could do.

Now, last time that I checked, Z-film vehicle speed from around Z-291 to Z309 (per the existing Z-film) was calculated at approximately 9.737 mph.

However, it will ultimately be that vehicle speed between the headshot at Z-313 (second shot) and the headshot down in front of Altgens which forces the hand of those who like to play games with frames of the film(s).

(That is, for those who recognize that the third/last/final shot was in fact down in front of James

Altgens location, irrelevant as to where it may have come from.)

1.9/2.0 seconds or so between shots will not be swallowed by anyone, even for the best supporter of the "Lone Assassin".

Anyone attempted to get Ken Rahn or John McAdams to "debunk" this one?

Z-313 = Survey Stationing 4+65.3

Third Shot = Survey Stationing 4+95 (survey notes)/4+96 (approximately) according to US Secret Service notes

29.7 feet separation of distance between shots.

All of which would indicate that the Presidential Limo averaged a speed of approximately 10.125 mph through this distance, whereas other evidence as well as witness statements claim that it almost came to a complete stop.

I do believe that we need about another 0.4 seconds or so (minimum) elapsed time, which would in fact only equate to 7 to 8 frames of the film, and which would also decrease vehicle speed to an average speed of approximately

8.3 mph through this distance as well.

[John Simkin]

"As I don't have access to the education forum debate on Missing Nix Frames, would you post on my behalf that these frames were removed by the F.B.I. And the frames were replaced by the image of a little man super-imposed onto the film to cover the images of gunflash before this film footage was returned to Orville Nix. Nix suspected that frames had been cut from his film , Which they were , But he didn't know exactly what the F.B.I. had done way back in 1963 , I seen the copy that was returned to Nix, But in later versions of his film the two frame image of the little man was removed." (James O'Hagan)

[Frank Agbat]

I've re-worked some of the Nix frame-spacing analysis to try to make it a bit easier to see. Per John Dolva's request, I have noted the frame which contains the head shot.

I've verified correct de-interlacing and IVTC (inverse Telecine) from an NTSC source for these frames.

Here is the full panorama version:

And the tracking alone, using the center of the front wheel:

[Shanet Clark]

So this version would indicate that there are no missing frames,

only a smooth frame to frame rate for the

GG300 limousine through the ambuscade according to Nix.

Is that right?

[Frank Agbat]

So this version would indicate that there are no missing frames,

only a smooth frame to frame rate for the

GG300 limousine through the ambuscade according to Nix.

Is that right?

Hi Shanet,

I'm not sure I'm ready to come to any conclusions yet...

In this topic, I felt that it was necessary to eliminate any potential issues created in the digital domain. Such things as misbehaving IVTC could end up discarding some frames, throwing off the results. I'm completely certain that the frames that I used are purely progressive.

In the analysis of these frames, I did not get quite the same results as John Dolva got. However, our sources were different, and our methods vary slightly. The most notable difference is the measurement point used. Mine is based on the center of the front tire, John's uses the front of the limo. I've provided John a copy of the same frames I used so that he can work on them using his method.

That said, I don't know if I'd call the rate completely smooth. There are some compressions and gaps that are a bit more obvious on the full-sized version (I had to reduce the size for posting here, unfortunately). However, whether they indicate missing frames or not, I don't know.

Another anomaly is that while messed-up IVTC could explain *some* of the stuff going on in the original (John's) source, it cannot explain *all* of the things...

I view this as very much a work-in-progress.