Missing Nix frames

[Frank Agbat]

John,

Nicely done, again. I have looked at this, too, and for my eye, NS35 matches Z325 very, very well. This particular frame has all the characteristics necessary to produce a good temporal alignment. Specifically, it contains very quick motions from muscles capable of exceedingly fast movement (arm, wrist, and fingers.)

If you look at my image sequence below, you can see that in Z325, Jackie moves her had away from JFK's head. This is a quick, upward motion of the wrist and fingers - not unlike the motion one makes when shaking water off one's fingers or pulling away from something hot. These muscle groups are VERY capable of rapid motion (just watch a professional percussionist play, you'll see what I mean). That gives this frame the characteristics needed to be a target for alignment. If you look at the surrounding frames, Z324 still shows hand-to-head contact, and Z326 shows the hand well away from the head (like touching something hot.)

If you observe the corresponding NIX sequence frame, NS35 is the only one that shows this characteristic hand location and shape.

NS34 still shows the hand curved and near/on the head. NS36 shows spacing. NS37 and Z327 both show the right hand descending.

I'll post a synched version in a bit (with NS35 = Z325).

[Frank Agbat]

and in sequence...

and the sync portion slowed down...

[Bill Miller]

Bill, That doesn't address the question. That motion blur has continuity. Take a look at the frames like 311 at Jeans red coat. There are two much more distinct images making up the blur. What causes this. What causes that PARTICULAR TYPE of blur?

Zapruder moved his camera and caused the still and/or the slower moving objects to blur ... who hasn't had this happen when taking a photograph??? (see below)

In the first frasme - the officer and cycle are blurred while Hill and Moorman are not. Zapruder moves his camera (possibly due to his vertigo) and the opposite is seen between the cycle and the two said women.

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This means that N23 is about 2/10th's of a frame time after Z313.

This cannot be if N23 is the spatter shot because the spatter and bones flying from JFK are CLOSER to his head than seen on the Zapruder film.

Bill Miller

Edited December 17, 2006 by Bill Miller

[Ashton Gray]

This means that N23 is about 2/10th's of a frame time after Z313.

This cannot be if N23 is the spatter shot because the spatter and bones flying from JFK are CLOSER to his head than seen on the Zapruder film.

Bill Miller

Maybe we could substitute "is problematic" for "cannot be," and possibly take relative angles, relative light angles, and other factors into account to see if such problems might resolve.

Ashton

[John Kennedy White]

Gratitude for being able to procedeed with a minimum of negativities. Congratulations to every one really. It makes it easier to ditch mistakes and change the conclusions to suit the results. No real conclusions yet, just an ongoing check in a number of ways.

John, I think the streak that could be taken for a bullet track, rather than a bullet, is a defect on one particular frame. If you get a copy of irfranview (good freeware widely available latest version : http://www.irfanview.com/ ) you can use it to extract the frames and have a look.

Bill, That doesn't address the question. That motion blur has continuity. Take a look at the frames like 311 at Jeans red coat. There are two much more distinct images making up the blur. What causes this. What causes that PARTICULAR TYPE of blur?

______________

An 'anchor point".

in Z325-Z326-Z327 Jackies hand makes a movement ( across and down ) that matches almost exactly in time and space the hand movement in N35-N36-N37.

This means that N23 is about 2/10th's of a frame time after Z313.

Thanks, John. I'll check that out. Thought that would have been too easy... a similar defect in the upper left corner during the same sequence made me think it was the film, not a bullet path.

[Frank Agbat]

This cannot be if N23 is the spatter shot because the spatter and bones flying from JFK are CLOSER to his head than seen on the Zapruder film.

Bill Miller

Hi Bill,

I'm not quite sure I'm ready to say "cannot" either. It is my opinion, at this time, that N22 is the closest frame (between the two films) of the actual headshot. I'll try to post something that illustrates from where this opinion has been formed.

However, I must point out that N23 could follow Z313, and what we are seeing is the aftermath of the large splatter in Z313, as opposed to an event preceding it. Also, the Nix camera has more zoom-lens distance-compression effect in play here (plus it is at a greater distance, reducing detail based on the resolving ability of the film). Yeah -- that is a lot of words to say, "I'm not sure..."

On the other hand, you could very well be correct. At this writing, I'm fairly comfortable with saying NS35 = Z325. I'd like to make a table with Z325 set as "Zero time" and work forward and back using "shutter interval math" to see where frames line up in this continuum.

[John Dolva]

This cannot be if N23 is the spatter shot because the spatter and bones flying from JFK are CLOSER to his head than seen on the Zapruder film.

Bill Miller

Hi Bill,

I'm not quite sure I'm ready to say "cannot" either. It is my opinion, at this time, that N22 is the closest frame (between the two films) of the actual headshot. I'll try to post something that illustrates from where this opinion has been formed.

However, I must point out that N23 could follow Z313, and what we are seeing is the aftermath of the large splatter in Z313, as opposed to an event preceding it. Also, the Nix camera has more zoom-lens distance-compression effect in play here (plus it is at a greater distance, reducing detail based on the resolving ability of the film). Yeah -- that is a lot of words to say, "I'm not sure..."

On the other hand, you could very well be correct. At this writing, I'm fairly comfortable with saying NS35 = Z325. I'd like to make a table with Z325 set as "Zero time" and work forward and back using "shutter interval math" to see where frames line up in this continuum.

I've been trying to determine exactly where Nix is and thinking that it should be possible to work out in 3d the exact path that produces the trail by comparing the frames. I think that the bullet just strikes the head at 312, 22 is a moment after this. Then 313 and immediately after that comes 23. If you look at the image on the previous page

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...ost&p=85376

on the right is a ruler of 18.5and 18-3 side by side. This places (as I think there need be no doubt that 35 325 are a very close match) 23 immediately after 313. This is what I get anyway. (I did look at this a year+ ago and worked out that the top line points almost directly at Harry.) This means it's shallow and that for Nix it's close to the head and for Zap further away. It is then in reality even further away for both. ie. neither are looking sideways on the path, rather it's pointing towards Nix's left and away from Zapruder on a low trajectory.

The blue dot is approx centre of Nix lens.

Edited December 17, 2006 by John Dolva

[Bill Miller]

Hi Bill,

I'm not quite sure I'm ready to say "cannot" either. It is my opinion, at this time, that N22 is the closest frame (between the two films) of the actual headshot. I'll try to post something that illustrates from where this opinion has been formed.

Frank, let me explain a little better why I say what I do ......... When I talk about the Nix frame that matches Zframe 313 - I am talking about the initial spatter frame on both films. That spatter can only be seen in one frame in its dense form because it is moving too fast to allow a second frame to capture it in that state. This is why the skull flap/bone plate is already seen at the end of its tether in Zframe 313. A film capturing images at only 18 fps cannont possibly keep up with objects moving at such a high rate of speed, thus it only captures segments of time. In the Zapruder film at Z313, a piece of bone is already in flight a good 3.5 to 4 feet above the President's head from Zapruder's perspective. Zapruder's elevated view will make the piece of bone look closer to JFK than it really is as compared to seeing it more at ground level like Nix was. (I'll add some more details below in the next response)

However, I must point out that N23 could follow Z313, and what we are seeing is the aftermath of the large splatter in Z313, as opposed to an event preceding it. Also, the Nix camera has more zoom-lens distance-compression effect in play here (plus it is at a greater distance, reducing detail based on the resolving ability of the film).

The density of the spatter in the Nix film is contained very close to the Presidnt's head as compared to the same explosion frame seen on the Zapruder film. Further support for the Nix frame being exposed sooner than Zapruder's impact frame is the previously mentioned bone seen flying off the top of JFK's head. If Zapruder was off the pedestal and closer to the elvation Nix was, then the piece of bone Abe caught streaking away in Z313 would appear even further above JFK compared to seeing the same moment in time atop the pedestal - this is simple perspective and how things appear when seen at differfent angles. That same bone leaving JFK's head in the Nix film is little more than a foot from the President's head and the debris flying off the back of JFK's head is also captured in that frame. There is no such debris seen coming off the back of JFK's head in Z313 because it has already been rifled out of the frame when it was exposed, thus Z313 was exposed after the same Nix frame IMO. (see examples below)

Bill Miller

Edited December 17, 2006 by Bill Miller

[Ashton Gray]

...In the Zapruder film at Z313, a piece of bone is already in flight a good 3.5 to 4 feet above the President's head from Zapruder's perspective. Zapruder's elevated view will make the piece of bone look closer to JFK than it really is as compared to seeing it more at ground level like Nix was. ...in the Nix film is little more than a foot from the President's head...

I will opine that references to bone fragments being a given "number of feet" from Kennedy's head (or from anything), in either film, at any given captured moment, assumes known angles of flight for such fragments that simply are not in evidence, making it anything and everything but "simple perspective," and introducing "measurements" that have no basis in fact as a "proof' against other well-demonstrated sync point analyses that have much to recommend them.

Ashton

[John Dolva]

Absolutely, and equally valid argument (to Bills suggestion) (IMO more valid) is:

The matter of the unseen mist.

The solution draws on the principle outlined re alignment technique. It's a simple matter of how colors behave. If one has a color such as a shade of red and places it over its inverse, a shade of green, the resultant color is a shade of grey. Illuminate it, and depending on the colors involved it can easily be seen as whitish. The color of that lawn in viewing it as Nix does with the sun where it is or as it is for Zap, the light passing through the mist, illuminating it and the light from the lawn illuminating it and the mist being transparent and the lawn color seen through it washes the mist color out in different ways. When you then have vastly different resolution as far as the object concerned like the mist it is not surprising that the Nix blood is less visible. That doesn't mean at all that it is not there in equal measure. Not at all.

Whether one chooses to say 23 comes before or after 313 the fact remains that 35 - 325 is a match and tracking back places 23 immediately after 313.

The distance between the head and fragments are not this 'one foot'. The path seen is viewed obliquely and merely appears to be short, in fact it's long. Even longer than Z shows.

It may be possible to use some steroscopic thinking to understand what is seen and derive an exact 3d model of the fragment path (if that is what it is). First one must simply accept the apparent evidence re 35 325 match and the conclusion from that that 23 occurs (must occur) immediately after 313.

________________

Chris, that's a very nice clip, thank's for posting it. I notice one can also 'see the lens' as Jean moves to the edge and suddenly distorts.

Edited December 17, 2006 by John Dolva

[Bill Miller]

I will opine that references to bone fragments being a given "number of feet" from Kennedy's head (or from anything), in either film, at any given captured moment, assumes known angles of flight for such fragments that simply are not in evidence, making it anything and everything but "simple perspective," and introducing "measurements" that have no basis in fact as a "proof' against other well-demonstrated sync point analyses that have much to recommend them.

Maybe I should have said it this way .... What I posted is for those who CAN judge distances and who DO have an understanding as to how perspective works. Those who cannot see the difference - I cannot help them for they are the ones who were probably taken in by the 'Toni Foster is 7 feet tall' claim. As you may remember - Jack drew a line between two poles and figured that just because Toni Foster's head appeared to be almost touching a line that represented 7' off the ground - then Foster must also be 7 feet tall. A simple test can be done to show this illusion .... take two alike objects like a salt and pepper shaker and stand one just in front of the other and look at them from ground level ... next raise up your line of sight and note how one will now appear to be taller than the other in your field of view. This is a simple principle that cannot be disputed by anyone who understands it ... there can be no help for those who ponder whether one shaker grew in size over the other.

The point I am making is that there is such a difference in distance from JFK's head between the same bone fragment seen in Z's film Vs. Nix's film, that one doesn't need to know the exact measurements of each from Kernnedy's head, but rather to just understand that the same fragment furthest from the President's head is the latter exposed frame.

Bill Miller

[Frank Agbat]

The following sequence is from the NFV/Groden DVD's Nix film. The sequence is the NS21 - NS24 headshot area, and has been optically zoomed.

Please notice the skull-shape distortion in NS22. This is why I am currently of the opinion that this is the true headshot frame in the Nix film.

[Ashton Gray]

The following sequence is from the NFV/Groden DVD's Nix film. The sequence is the NS21 - NS24 headshot area, and has been optically zoomed.

Please notice the skull-shape distortion in NS22. This is why I am currently of the opinion that this is the true headshot frame in the Nix film.

Truly brilliant work, Frank.

Ashton

[Frank Agbat]

The math of Nix and Zapruder... (I have a spreadsheet I can share if anyone is interested.)

I have set Z-325 = NS-35 and am calling this the "zero" point on a timeline. The alignment in this frame is quite good and is a reasonable place to consider a zero point. There is, of course, a valid argument to use 324/34 or 326/36 - I'm not sure it is going to matter that much.

Using this as the base point, here is what the math yields:

Z312 occurs at -0.7103825137 (0.71038.. seconds BEFORE Z325) (computations based on 18.3 frames per second)

Z313 occurs at -0.6557377049

NS22 occurs at -0.7027027027 (computations based on 18.5 frames per second)

NS23 occurs at -0.6486486486

(the values are negative because they happen before the zero point of Z325/NS35)

Interpretation:

The shutter opening for Z312 occurs very slightly (0.0076798110 seconds) BEFORE the shutter opens for NS22.

The shutter opening for Z313 occurs very slightly (0.0070890563 seconds) BEFORE the shutter opens for NS23.

Sanity check:

Given the diverging rate and the math, is the previously observed difference (Clint Hill's Foot) consistent with expectations?

The previous alignment paired Z380 with NS90.

Z380 Occurs at 3.0054644809 seconds after Z325

NS90 Occurs at 2.9729729730 seconds after NS35

In other words: NS90 occurs 0.0324915079 seconds BEFORE Z380. This is nearly 6/10 of a frame difference with Nix preceding Zapruder. Thus the fact that Hill's foot is OFF the limo in NIX and ON the Limo in Zapruder is expected behavior.

Base assumptions:

The published frame rates (18.3fps and 18.5fps are accurate)

The cameras maintained a constant framerate (at the published rate) through the sequence.

Z325 = NS35

[John Dolva]

So, that's approximately 0.007 seconds after 313 for 23. That matches my estimate, using graphics, of 2/10ths of a frame time between the two, or about 0.01 seconds. Very good. We have a benchmark at 35-325. Too optimistic? Perhaps it can confidently be stretched from 312-22 to 325-35.

_____________

This illustrates how as ones view of the limousine is elevated the path looks longer. Should one have a birds eye view one would see it longer still.

Edited December 17, 2006 by John Dolva