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Missing Nix frames


John Dolva

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Very nice work indeed Frank. Even down to the flapping of the coat sync. So which frame numbers are used there? Could you give the start and end frame of each film, please?. It would be a good basis for other sync checks.

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Very nice work indeed Frank. Even down to the flapping of the coat sync. So which frame numbers are used there? Could you give the start and end frame of each film, please?. It would be a good basis for other sync checks.

John,

Thank you very much.

The Z-frames used are Z298 - Z324 (inclusive).

The NS frames used are NS8 - NS34 (inclusive). (NS = the shooting sequence on Elm, to distinguish the frames from the Houston St. footage)

I then aligned the Nix frames matching Z313 with the nix frame that shows blood splatter and then counted back the same number of frames on both films. I think that is the one that we have been calling NS23. (On the sequence of images that I sent you, it would have originally been named "Nix00000446.jpg") I estimate that the assassination sequence that we have been looking at on the N-film covers z-frames Z291 - Z340.

Apart from making a (somewhat) arbitrary decision to align Z313 and NS23, I didn't do any shenanigans with the frames in the animation to get them to align time-wise. No doubled frames, no offset of one film vs. the other. Z298 was chosen as the starting frame, because it is the first decent in-focus picture of Ms. Foster on the z-film. Using a 1:1 frame association, Z298=NS8 and Z324=NS34.

The frames are stabilized on Ms. Foster, per the technique you previously created.

Of course, there are many other questions, including what would happen if NS22 was equated to Z313? (NS22 may actually be a better candidate). So many ideas, so little time...

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This is the same animation, but with Z-313 equated to NS-22. (difference of one frame from the previous version).

In this sequence, the Z-frames run from Z298 - Z324

The NS-frames run from NS-7 through NS-33.

(Edit: John Simkin was kind enough to provide additional space. I have replaced the original version with one of slightly higher quality.)

Edited by Frank Agbat
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Seeing that now (excellent again BTW) the ghost motorcycle is the MC on the right hand side as it was on the previous frame. I wonder if when that lines up with Zapruder - Toni on both frames (Zminus1) we have a exact match? Perhaps N23 Z313 N24 is timeline? What do you see?

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Seeing that now (excellent again BTW) the ghost motorcycle is the MC on the right hand side as it was on the previous frame. I wonder if when that lines up with Zapruder - Toni on both frames (Zminus1) we have a exact match? Perhaps N23 Z313 N24 is timeline? What do you see?

I'll be perfectly honest with you, John... I'm still having a heck of a time determining which alignment "looks" better to me. If the clips were longer, we *might* notice drift. However, over such a small number of frames, the difference is very hard to see. Even worse, there aren't any quick definitive motions that could expose sync problems (even if there were, though, the difference of one frame might still not be noticeable).

At this point, my postulate sequence would be N22-Z313 N23 (splatter)-Z314 N24-Z315. In each "pair" (e.g. N22-Z313), the N-frame precedes its paired Z-frame by some fraction of a frame-duration. If you look at N22, you can see a noticeable shape-change in JFK's skull, but no splatter shows. Z313 shows the shape distortion AND the splatter. N23 actually shows "more" forward splatter than does Z314. But again, just a postulate at this point. I may be able to create a clip which has the frames operating on independent sync, but I'm going to work with the N22=Z313 assumption for the time being.

One thing I think we can say with reasonable confidence is that we're in the right ballpark with either alignment. As you observed, there are probably other landmarks and events that we can look at. I'm going to keep working at it.

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This is the same animation, but with Z-313 equated to NS-22. (difference of one frame from the previous version).

In this sequence, the Z-frames run from Z298 - Z324

The NS-frames run from NS-7 through NS-33.

(after posting this, I'm all but out of attachment space. I'll have to delete it in a few days. I can make the source frames available if anyone is interested.)

good job John and Frank... can we assume 3:2 puldown has been removed from both source files? And the exact source of the film clips utilized, please... again good job!

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This is the same animation, but with Z-313 equated to NS-22. (difference of one frame from the previous version).

In this sequence, the Z-frames run from Z298 - Z324

The NS-frames run from NS-7 through NS-33.

(after posting this, I'm all but out of attachment space. I'll have to delete it in a few days. I can make the source frames available if anyone is interested.)

good job John and Frank... can we assume 3:2 puldown has been removed from both source files? And the exact source of the film clips utilized, please... again good job!

David,

The source for the NIX clips is Groden's NFV DVD from my personal video collection. This DVD is a 29.97fps NTSC interlaced source, and I have removed the interlaced frames and performed inverse telecine. The clip I selected was the "hair free" second generation version (the first-gen copy he has picked up a hair in the lower left corner somehow during the copy process).

The source of the Z-Film clip is the MPI DVD from my personal video collection. This DVD is also 29.97fps NTSC interlaced source, and has also gone through appropriate de-interlace/inverse telecine. The version used was the "Under Sprocket Hole" track where the entire 8mm frame is visible.

In both cases, the actual telecine process used is not 3:2, as that is the formula for a 24fps source. I'd have to look again for the exact pattern used, but it is slightly different because of the 18.x fps original. Regardless, I made certain (by hand) that no duplicate frames or interlaced frames remained prior to doing any work.

To create the smaller clips, a fixed-size region (120x200 pixels) was taken from the original frame, attempting to horizontally center on Ms. Foster's neck/spine line and vertically centering on her elbows. The stabilization was done using the method that John Dolva described earlier in this thread (which is, in photoshop parlance, essentially using a difference layer to determine alignment). This produced a series of stills (each holding a pair of images - 1 from Nix, 1 from Zapruder) that were stabilized. The actual stills look better than the animated GIF, due to the GIF's limited palette (and my attempts to keep it small enough to fit on the forum). If you're interested, I can make the sources available for inspection, as peer review is always a vital and welcome part of any research effort.

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Frank, I found that photobucket accepts large gifs. I'll send you my email as well. If you zip things up into an archive using winzip they become more manageable too.

Interesting sequence that you see. I'll look more closely at that. Like you say so much to do, but I think what you have done re this sync when throughly worked through will be a significant benchmark work. Perhaps one can eventually leapfrog through all the overlapping films from this point and determine with some certainty about missing frames etc. It would be great if there was some split screen thing that can have frames running at different rates for different parts of the image to take care of long time syncs. Just thinking aloud.

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Note -- I have replaced the T. Foster examples with higher-quality versions.

Proof of concept 2:

Tracking Secret Service Agent Clint Hill

Source: Zfilm=MPI Under Sprocket, NFilm=NFV/Groden Generation1 version

Temporal Alignment: NS22 = Z313

ZFrame range: Z333-Z390

NSFrame range: NS41-NS98 (Where NS1 is the first frame after the restart)

NFrame range: N215-N272 (Where N1 is the very first frame of the Nfilm)

Running slightly fast. (If viewing with Firefox, it runs waaaay too fast. IE views the gif at the intended speed)

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Note -- I have replaced the T. Foster examples with higher-quality versions.

Proof of concept 2:

Tracking Secret Service Agent Clint Hill

Source: Zfilm=MPI Under Sprocket, NFilm=NFV/Groden Generation1 version

Temporal Alignment: NS22 = Z313

ZFrame range: Z333-Z390

NSFrame range: NS41-NS98 (Where NS1 is the first frame after the restart)

NFrame range: N215-N272 (Where N1 is the very first frame of the Nfilm)

Running slightly fast. (If viewing with Firefox, it runs waaaay too fast. IE views the gif at the intended speed)

//

why does it run waaaaay to fast in Firefox? There appears dropped-missing frames in the N-filmAny post process applied to the MPI Z-frames, Frank?

Also, there appears to be dropped (or missing) N-frames

Edited by David G. Healy
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why does it run waaaaay to fast in Firefox? Any post process applied to the MPI Z-frames, Frank?

David,

I don't know exactly why it runs fast in Firefox. It is possible that Firefox is not correctly interpreting the frame duration (0.05 seconds) that I'm adding. It runs at the intended speed in IE. I'll have to look into it a bit more.

The only thing I did to the MPI frames was to crop them. (Same for the Nix frames)

However, the conversion to GIF undoubtedly produced some changes. The GIF palette is limited due to the nature and age of the standard. Also, to get the sequence to fit on the forum, I had to accept some loss (25% in this case), and the images are dithered (again, due to size limits).

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why does it run waaaaay to fast in Firefox? Any post process applied to the MPI Z-frames, Frank?

David,

I don't know exactly why it runs fast in Firefox. It is possible that Firefox is not correctly interpreting the frame duration (0.05 seconds) that I'm adding. It runs at the intended speed in IE. I'll have to look into it a bit more.

The only thing I did to the MPI frames was to crop them. (Same for the Nix frames)

However, the conversion to GIF undoubtedly produced some changes. The GIF palette is limited due to the nature and age of the standard. Also, to get the sequence to fit on the forum, I had to accept some loss (25% in this case), and the images are dithered (again, due to size limits).

yeah, I ask because Z-film imagery on my MPI DVD is no where near as sharp as what you posted in the above clip. Leads me to believe some *unsharp-mask* process was done someplace... What software was used for 3:2 pulldown removal? and did the final Z-product work out to 18.3fps?

yeah, I'm well aware of .gif color palette issues and the internet. Further, the intended speed of the displayed clips - and the N-dropped/missing frames issue i raised? Sorry for all the questions.

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Hi Jack, a full size gif (5+ meg) is here

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c168/yanndee/c.gif

It would be good to get a number of opinions about how it looks speed wise. Gary has informed me that the 40 is a misread by Orville regarding film not camera speed. I've set this gif to run at 54 ms or 18.5 fps. The black flashes are frames inserted where I think frames are missing. More later.

As well as the reactions of Newman and Toni, the inside right motorcycle cop slows dramatically. Wonder what his testimony was?

Fascinating stuff!

It looks to me like that cop sees something on the knoll and brakes hard.

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Findings: On this composite the black lines are the locations of the front edge of the fender on consecutive frames as per available film . The lower single red mark is the frame where the headshot is first visible. The red lines between the black lines are my estimates of missing frames. When the film runs the missing frames give an appearance of smooth continuity. When properly placed in space on the composite the jerky leaps of speed at the missing frames is obvious.

(image)

John, I must be blind for I cannot see your example ... can you point me towards it? Feel free to email me with it if you wish at - Imsjle@aol.com. I would also like to know the source for the film you are using because I have a copy of Groden's 1st generation print from the Nix film and I do not see any missing frames around the kill shot in my copy. I called Groden just now and confirmed my observation with him and this is why I would like to see your example and to find out its source. Knowing this is important because if you are using a latter generation copy that someone has damaged by removing frames - it is a moot point if the same film without missing frames exist.

Thanks,

Bill Miller

Edited by Bill Miller
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Findings: On this composite the black lines are the locations of the front edge of the fender on consecutive frames as per available film . The lower single red mark is the frame where the headshot is first visible. The red lines between the black lines are my estimates of missing frames. When the film runs the missing frames give an appearance of smooth continuity. When properly placed in space on the composite the jerky leaps of speed at the missing frames is obvious.

(image)

John, I must be blind for I cannot see your example ... can you point me towards it? Feel free to email me with it if you wish at - Imsjle@aol.com. I would also like to know the source for the film you are using because I have a copy of Groden's 1st generation print from the Nix film and I do not see any missing frames around the kill shot in my copy. I called Groden just now and confirmed my observation with him and this is why I would like to see your example and to find out its source. Knowing this is important because if you are using a latter generation copy that someone has damaged by removing frames - it is a moot point if the same film without missing frames exist.

Thanks,

Bill Miller

it's there...

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