Jack White Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 No offense Bill - can you post Thompsons replication? - lee Lee, the tree I spoke of will not be found in pictures taken of the plaza in recent years, unlike what Jack thinks. As I recall, I saw the tree that I believed it to be in the photo taken on the afternoon of the assassination ... the same day Moorman took her photo. That photo should be in Trask's book "POTP". Josiah Thompson would have to post his photo because I don't have a copy of it. Bill Miller What Bill is referring to, I think, is on pages 223-225 of Six Seconds. "Question 5: Did the fatal shot come from a 'gunman' perched on a 'station wagon' located near the concrete pergola? Answer: No. The 'station wagon' is a vehicle parked some 30 to 40 feet behind the pergola, while the 'gunman' turns out to be a pattern of light and dark shadows on its west wall." His answer was based on an Itek study of the Nix film, plus his own observations of the Hughes and Bell films. The quote that Bill may have in mind is on 224: "The man with the rifle, however, was found to be nothing more than the shadows of tree branches and leaves on the side of the white pavilion." The photos in Six Seconds are the ones we all are familiar with. Hope this helps. Dave I agree with this particular ITEK study in part...the "left arm" of the gunman is sunlight on the pergola wall. But the car has never been identified as a station wagon, and is not 30-40 feet behind the pergola, but more like 10-15 feet. The "cartop gunman" is an illusion. Thanks. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack White Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 (edited) No offense Bill - can you post Thompsons replication? - lee Lee, the tree I spoke of will not be found in pictures taken of the plaza in recent years, unlike what Jack thinks. As I recall, I saw the tree that I believed it to be in the photo taken on the afternoon of the assassination ... the same day Moorman took her photo. That photo should be in Trask's book "POTP". Josiah Thompson would have to post his photo because I don't have a copy of it. Bill Miller The photo posted by Mark is not "in recent years" but back when the Hertz sign was still up...years ago. How can you describe a photo you may have seen somewhere, but can't tell us where, and that you said was taken by Thompson, but now you say was taken the afternoon of the assassination? You are going in circles and getting nowhere. Jack Edited December 1, 2006 by Jack White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack White Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 (edited) While restudying the vehicle behing the pergola, I found a couple of studies showing SOMETHING BLOCKING THE PERGOLA WINDOWS IN NIX which are not seen in Bond and Willis. Jack Edited December 1, 2006 by Jack White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Forman Posted December 1, 2006 Author Share Posted December 1, 2006 While restudying the vehicle behing the pergola, I found a couple ofstudies showing SOMETHING BLOCKING THE PERGOLA WINDOWS IN NIX which are not seen in Bond and Willis. Jack Jack, This may sound foolish, but I used to wonder [and still do] about that truck parked back there which can be seen in the backlot in one of the aftermath shots. Bowers, for example, never mentioned anything about that car. I was wondering if perhaps a truck wasn't used as a shield to block whatever it is that they were doing from Bowers view - in that location. I guess I will have to keep wondering - but I always thought it made a great deal of sense. Standing at the back of the pergola leaves you completely naked to the rear. You can be seen from as far away as the railroad underpass on Stemmons, where DPD were stationed at the time. You would of course be more than fair game for Bowers. To create some confusion, all you would have to do is move it afterwards - like the car. Anyway - just a thought that I had a long time ago. - lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Forman Posted December 1, 2006 Author Share Posted December 1, 2006 No offense Bill - can you post Thompsons replication? - lee Lee, the tree I spoke of will not be found in pictures taken of the plaza in recent years, unlike what Jack thinks. As I recall, I saw the tree that I believed it to be in the photo taken on the afternoon of the assassination ... the same day Moorman took her photo. That photo should be in Trask's book "POTP". Josiah Thompson would have to post his photo because I don't have a copy of it. Bill Miller What Bill is referring to, I think, is on pages 223-225 of Six Seconds. "Question 5: Did the fatal shot come from a 'gunman' perched on a 'station wagon' located near the concrete pergola? Answer: No. The 'station wagon' is a vehicle parked some 30 to 40 feet behind the pergola, while the 'gunman' turns out to be a pattern of light and dark shadows on its west wall." His answer was based on an Itek study of the Nix film, plus his own observations of the Hughes and Bell films. The quote that Bill may have in mind is on 224: "The man with the rifle, however, was found to be nothing more than the shadows of tree branches and leaves on the side of the white pavilion." The photos in Six Seconds are the ones we all are familiar with. Hope this helps. Dave Thanks Dave. I don't believe that the car is that far back, which is why I did the study to begin with. Hicks said that there was a '56 Pontiac 'backed up to the fence.' I think it's likely he was telling the truth, it is simply a matter of how one interprets what that line 'backed up to the fence' means - to the best of my knowledge, there are no records indicating what he was pointing to in what diagram during the Clay Shaw trial to assist - however, the fence did end there in 1963. Also, it's too much of coincidence that 2 unfamiliar cars with out-of-state plates would be parked in the reserved Sheriff's parking location, with men taking long packages out of the trunk - that morning, as per Whatley. Plus of course, Hicks being tossed out a window and later tossed into the asylum - an interesting coincidence. And again, Whatley is adamant that the event she described took place - although there isn't a shred of documentation to support it, and Truly never reported anything. Add that there was a car seen by Brennan parked on the Elm St extension [Olds] which disappeared shortly after the shooting, and maybe we have a similar modus. On the alleged Nix Classic Gunman - well, maybe he's light and shadow, I don't know. What I find interesting is that the location, generally speaking, corresponds with where folks have indicated to me that the 'other film' from this location was taken from - a bit lower and to the right of what we see in the Zapruder film. Curious anyway. Thanks to you and Bill for the references - I would like to see the photo Bill is referring to sometime. - lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Curbow Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 No offense Bill - can you post Thompsons replication? - lee Lee, the tree I spoke of will not be found in pictures taken of the plaza in recent years, unlike what Jack thinks. As I recall, I saw the tree that I believed it to be in the photo taken on the afternoon of the assassination ... the same day Moorman took her photo. That photo should be in Trask's book "POTP". Josiah Thompson would have to post his photo because I don't have a copy of it. Bill Miller What Bill is referring to, I think, is on pages 223-225 of Six Seconds. "Question 5: Did the fatal shot come from a 'gunman' perched on a 'station wagon' located near the concrete pergola? Answer: No. The 'station wagon' is a vehicle parked some 30 to 40 feet behind the pergola, while the 'gunman' turns out to be a pattern of light and dark shadows on its west wall." His answer was based on an Itek study of the Nix film, plus his own observations of the Hughes and Bell films. The quote that Bill may have in mind is on 224: "The man with the rifle, however, was found to be nothing more than the shadows of tree branches and leaves on the side of the white pavilion." The photos in Six Seconds are the ones we all are familiar with. Hope this helps. Dave Thanks Dave. I don't believe that the car is that far back, which is why I did the study to begin with. Hicks said that there was a '56 Pontiac 'backed up to the fence.' I think it's likely he was telling the truth, it is simply a matter of how one interprets what that line 'backed up to the fence' means - to the best of my knowledge, there are no records indicating what he was pointing to in what diagram during the Clay Shaw trial to assist - however, the fence did end there in 1963. Also, it's too much of coincidence that 2 unfamiliar cars with out-of-state plates would be parked in the reserved Sheriff's parking location, with men taking long packages out of the trunk - that morning, as per Whatley. Plus of course, Hicks being tossed out a window and later tossed into the asylum - an interesting coincidence. And again, Whatley is adamant that the event she described took place - although there isn't a shred of documentation to support it, and Truly never reported anything. Add that there was a car seen by Brennan parked on the Elm St extension [Olds] which disappeared shortly after the shooting, and maybe we have a similar modus. On the alleged Nix Classic Gunman - well, maybe he's light and shadow, I don't know. What I find interesting is that the location, generally speaking, corresponds with where folks have indicated to me that the 'other film' from this location was taken from - a bit lower and to the right of what we see in the Zapruder film. Curious anyway. Thanks to you and Bill for the references - I would like to see the photo Bill is referring to sometime. - lee Lee, I hope you have access to POP and That Day in Dallas by Trask. After I looked more carefully at what Bill was saying, I scanned the books to see if I could identify the photograph he was talking about. I haven't the time to scan them, but pictures I saw that he could be referring to were in Picture of the Pain p. 39, 333, and 494; I checked That Day in Dallas to see if maybe something was there, and the best I could do was p. 33. I am sorry if you don't have access to the books and that scanning them isn't practical for me now. Hopefully Bill will chime in, or someone who can scan them will do that. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ecker Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 (edited) pictures I saw that he could be referring to were in Picture of the Pain p. 39, 333, and 494 The photos on 39 (Stoughton photo from camera car 2) and 333 (Harry Cabluck's second photo) definitely show what looks like part of the bushy top of a tree in the parking lot or railroad yard, visible over the north end of the retaining wall. What it corresponds to in the aerial photos I have no idea. And the photos on 494 (parking lot photos taken by Murray) clearly show a tree in the parking lot where people are milling around. It could be near the fence, but I thought all the trees along the fence were outside of it, except the big one near Badgeman's position. Cabluck photo: http://jfkmurderphotos.bravehost.com/cabluck2.jpg Murray photo with tree in yard: http://jfkmurderphotos.bravehost.com/murray15.jpg Edited December 1, 2006 by Ron Ecker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Unger Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 Note the railway steel structure that can be seen in both of the images below. Is it the same tree seen in both of the photo's. Cabluck2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Unger Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 (edited) Note the railway steel structure that can be seen in both of the images below.Is it the same tree seen in both of the photo's. Tower seen across the tracks towards the North west direction. Edited December 1, 2006 by Robin Unger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Unger Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 (edited) Crop of overhead shot of the carpark area, taken from a bell helicopter on the afternoon of the 22/11/63 Jack. Would you mind marking the Moorman position on the image below. Edited December 1, 2006 by Robin Unger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 (edited) _____________________________________ Note the Rambler (Station Wagon?) in the upper right-hand corner, facing the camera. Sure seems to have been lots of 'em in the DP area that day... FWIW, Thomas _____________________________________ Edited December 1, 2006 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack White Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 Crop of overhead shot of the carpark area, taken from a bell helicopter on the afternoon of the 22/11/63Jack. Would you mind marking the Moorman position on the image below. Robin...Moorman's location. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John Gillespie Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 I do not want to offend anyone, nor waste much time on this matter, but Jack is in error about seeing any part of a car in Moorman's Polaroid. What is seen is the top of a tree that was further back in the parkinglot and nothing more. Josiah Thompson replicated Moorman's photo when he researched the Hat Man location and that tree top was still present. Bill Miller I looked thru all my Dealey Plaza aerials on this computer and could find NO photo which showed any tree in the area described. Show us Thompson's tree. This photo from four years ago was made from Reunion Tower. Jack __________________________________ Jack, To be fair, he wrote: "What is seen is the top of a tree that was further back (emphasis added) in the parkinglot and nothing more." That, of course, ultimately may not change much. Nice thread to all. I feel like I've been walking in and out of the pergola... JG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack White Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 I do not want to offend anyone, nor waste much time on this matter, but Jack is in error about seeing any part of a car in Moorman's Polaroid. What is seen is the top of a tree that was further back in the parkinglot and nothing more. Josiah Thompson replicated Moorman's photo when he researched the Hat Man location and that tree top was still present. Bill Miller I looked thru all my Dealey Plaza aerials on this computer and could find NO photo which showed any tree in the area described. Show us Thompson's tree. This photo from four years ago was made from Reunion Tower. Jack __________________________________ Jack, To be fair, he wrote: "What is seen is the top of a tree that was further back (emphasis added) in the parkinglot and nothing more." That, of course, ultimately may not change much. Nice thread to all. I feel like I've been walking in and out of the pergola... JG To be fair, there was NO TREE on Moorman's line of sight past the end of the pergola. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Unger Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 (edited) Thanks Jack. I have to agree with you on this one, if there is a tree there i cannot pin point it. ? I would like to nail down exactly which tree it is that we can see above the retaining wall in the image below.! Edited December 1, 2006 by Robin Unger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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