The vehicle parked behind the retaining wall

[Lee Forman]

I don't know if this will help or hinder, but in the Who Were the Shooters thread, discussion had come up about Ms. Julia Ann Mercer's account as a witness to having seen two men unloading something from a green truck that was parked on Elm Street on the morning of 22 November 1963, under the eye of policemen stationed on the overpass.

In that thread, I said in pertinent part:

As Lane points out, the testimony by both Mercer and Bowers about "two men" is consistent, and taken together is all very consistent (allowing for them taking their jackets off as the day warmed up) with two men doing some kind of work they needed to do—under the watchful eye of policemen—then moving their truck and hanging around to see the President go by—still under the watchful eye of policemen who probably had been watching them the whole time.

..This is at least an approximation of what Bowers described about the two men at issue and at least one of the policemen at that end of the overpass:

When I encountered this discussion I wondered idly whether the two things could be related, and whether the two men in question might have parked their green truck behind the pergola, maybe in somebody's spot that they shouldn't have taken. Having just put some cars into the TSBD parking lot at Peter Lemkin's request, I discovered that I had a stock pick-up truck (which I painted green) that I could replace one of the cars with at very little effort. So I did that, placing it approximately where I thought such a truck might have had a chance of being seen in the Moorman photo:

The next obvious thing to do was to attempt to approximate Moorman's position and the field of view of the camera. Although I can't claim to have hit it with any surveyor's accuracy, I was pleasantly surprised to discover that I could, indeed, see the top of the pick-up truck I had put into the model:

A host of unknown variables could render all of the above null and void. But I thought some might at least find it of interest.

Ashton

I like the parking lot - however, it needs help. I tried to do a bit of a recreation myself - it's a real challenge. Jim Connor told me that the layout of the lot changed since 1963. I don't think it was normal to park up against the fence - there may have been a lane there - if you see Holland's map it give you an indication of where the other vehicles were located, close to the corner. Also if you take a look at the one Murray photo.

Real quick - on the green pickup - that was removed from the scene. There were the 2 cars seen by Lee Vida Whatley early that morning - a large cream colored sedan, and a gold colored wagon. The first seems to match the description provided by Jim Hicks, of a '56 Pontiac. Then there are the three cars seen by Lee Bowers, which cruised through closer to the time of the assassination - with the '59 Olds coming close to the description of the car seen by Howard Brennan. The black Ford and the white Impala - no clue. There is also a brown Chevy that is suspicious as per the arrest made by Craig. Nix, Bell and Hughes were in color - the car is a light color - looks white.

Anyway - if you take the height of a '56 Pontiac and park it where I did, I don't think you would see anything at all from the Moorman location - as per the first part of this thread - that SUV I parked there was not visible - and I stand 6'4" tall. I think Jack, Robin and Bill are on the right track with a bush being in that position in the Moorman polaroid. Still need to solve a few things. Is it possible that this is a vehicle seen from quite some distance away towards the middle of the lot? I tend to think not. Is it true that there was an open lane there by the fence, and that cars did not normally park in that location? I don't know. It would be great to learn that this was the case - and that this car was suspiciously parked at the fence - however again, it's odd that Bowers fails to mention it, unless his view was blocked.

Have a look at this Murray. Could that white car be the object visible in Nix, Bell and Hughes? Note the two cars just beyond that Ford Pickup [which could be green? : )] I assume that this is the location where Lee Vida Whatley was accustomed to parking based upon the arrangement she had with the sheriff's office - the TSBD employee parking lot [for Frazier for example] was some distance away. I am not sure about in 1963, maybe someone could provide input, but that whole area in the foreground of the shot is reserved parking today.

Note on the 'fence' - RB Cutler has it as railroad ties on his plat.

- lee

[Lee Forman]

Another quick comment:

On the basis of what I have read, folks I've spoken with, emailed, etc. - it's my impression that there was a lot more firepower in the Plaza than what ended up being used - or hitting their marks anyway. I learned from more than one reference that there may have been selected positions that could not be used, and that some individuals may have been too scared to even squeeze off a shot - possibly compounded further if there is any truth to being 'dropped' into the op with no real sense of who the target was until the last moment.

Anyway, if we have rifles going up the hill with the green pick-up, long packages seen being taken out of a car that morning, a man with a rifle seen on the tracks, Ed Hoffman seeing a man breaking down a weapon and carrying it off in a toolbox, Tilson [maybe] seeing someone throw something into the back of a black car [maybe], someone seeing a man on the stairs with a weapon, Hill thinking for some reason that the good guys were shooting back, the gun found in a paperbag the following day, the pools of blood, etc. - seems plausible to me that there may have been quite a few guns distributed around the plaza - at ground level. Further, the odd report on a .22 lodged behind Kennedy's ear, the furrows in the grass, the 'pellet' that allegedly struck the grass ['Did you retreive the pellet?' - perhaps the most foolish question in the Warren Report], the numerous reports of shots which struck the Elm St pavement, the possible .45 removed by the mystery man, etc. I don't know if this is for real or not - but I had it from one place that the 'plan' didn't go off as anticipated. The reason for all the firepower, aside from ensuring that the target was eliminated, was in the event that the Queen Mary disembarked - which is why I called them cowards in some thread or other. The President has his head blown into pieces and they all rush off the hospital en masse - and with no consequences or repercussions for their miserable failure. The plan, so this story goes, was that the Lincoln was supposed to stop once the firing began. Interesting that it actually did - at least, in the reports of the eye witnesses -- not in the films, but also not where I was told it was supposed to have stopped - which would have been higher up on Elm.

Mostly theory and speculation.

- lee

[Ashton Gray]

Another quick comment:

On the basis of what I have read, folks I've spoken with, emailed, etc. - it's my impression that there was a lot more firepower in the Plaza than what ended up being used - or hitting their marks anyway.

Oh, yes: given such evidenciary solidity as chit-chat and "etc.," I'd have to guess a minimum of 30 or 40 shooters with rifles scattered all over Dealey Plaza in a secret plot to murder the President. Maybe a few dancing girls dressed as avocados, too, to cascade down a spiral staircase lowered from a sky hook if it all went wrong. I feel we're on the very brink of a solution...

Ashton

[Ashton Gray]

on the green pickup - that was removed from the scene.

I'll make you a deal: you write something that's understandable, I'll be sure to understand it. Work for you?

So re: your "the green pickup" here are some very specific questions so I can approach understanding:

1. Specifically what "green pickup" are you referring to?

2. "It" was removed from what "scene," specifically?

3. How did it get into "the scene," and exactly where in "the scene" was it at the relevant times?

3. At what time was it removed from "the scene"?

4. By whom was it "removed from the scene," and to where?

6. Can you substantiate and prove that there was no green pickup in the location I depicted at the time of the photos and movies at issue? If so, how?

Ashton

[Lee Forman]

on the green pickup - that was removed from the scene.

I'll make you a deal: you write something that's understandable, I'll be sure to understand it. Work for you?

So re: your "the green pickup" here are some very specific questions so I can approach understanding:

1. Specifically what "green pickup" are you referring to?

2. "It" was removed from what "scene," specifically?

3. How did it get into "the scene," and exactly where in "the scene" was it at the relevant times?

3. At what time was it removed from "the scene"?

4. By whom was it "removed from the scene," and to where?

6. Can you substantiate and prove that there was no green pickup in the location I depicted at the time of the photos and movies at issue? If so, how?

Ashton

No deal. Takes too much effort. It's already here somewhere. And I was responding to this piece of your post:

When I encountered this discussion I wondered idly whether the two things could be related, and whether the two men in question might have parked their green truck behind the pergola, maybe in somebody's spot that they shouldn't have taken. Having just put some cars into the TSBD parking lot at Peter Lemkin's request, I discovered that I had a stock pick-up truck (which I painted green) that I could replace one of the cars with at very little effort. So I did that, placing it approximately where I thought such a truck might have had a chance of being seen in the Moorman photo:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...amp;hl=vehicles

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...amp;hl=vehicles

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...amp;hl=vehicles

1. The one seen by Mercer.

2. Removed from where it was parked on Elm.

3. It was parked there.

4. Good question. It's here on the forum someplace.

6. Nope. I think I did mention that the films which capture the vehicle were in color. T'ain't green.

Oh, yes: given such evidenciary solidity as chit-chat and "etc.," I'd have to guess a minimum of 30 or 40 shooters with rifles scattered all over Dealey Plaza in a secret plot to murder the President. Maybe a few dancing girls dressed as avocados, too, to cascade down a spiral staircase lowered from a sky hook if it all went wrong. I feel we're on the very brink of a solution...

Well, I'm sorry that you feel that way. I thought perhaps I was being helpful.

- lee

[Jack White]

Robin...a comparison shows the vast difference in points of

view which results in foreshortening of the row of bushes

along the fence in Moorman, who was across the street aiming

north. Stoughton was close to the wall and aiming west.

Jack

Thanks Jack.

Regarding the item in the previous photo " What's this "

Gary Mack says that it is the FENCE.

He said it was much longer in 1963 than it is now, is the item i reffered to just a continuation of the picket fence.

It seems to stick way out into the carpark area. !

This is a CLEAN copy of the stoughton photo.

Robin...IT CANNOT BE A CONTINUATION OF THE FENCE, based on the

shadows. The fence is 5 feet tall. Cars are about 5 feet tall. LOOK AT

THE WIDE SHADOWS CAST BY CARS and compare shadows. In the

late afternoon sun, a 5 foot fence would cast a very long shadow.

Also steel train rails are about four inches tall, and wood rail ties are

about 8 inches tall. Compare the shadows cast by the rails with the

shadows cast by the object in question. They are about twice as tall

as the shadows of the rails, so must be about 8 inches tall. There are

other photos, I think, showing the pergola from the rear, and the

fence was no longer than today.

Jack

How it was in 1963.

Jack

[Jack White]

Location of car seen in Nix.

Jack

[Ashton Gray]

Location of car seen in Nix.

Jack

Excellent reference! Thanks, Jack.

Ashton

[Ron Ecker]

Regarding the item in the previous photo " What's this "

Gary Mack says that it is the FENCE.

He said it was much longer in 1963 than it is now, is the item i reffered to just a continuation of the picket fence.

It seems to stick way out into the carpark area. !

I don't understand this at all. If it's the fence extending that far, then how could any vehicle in the parking lot be seen through it in Nix or any other photo?

And where did all those people go who rushed up the steps after the shooting? I thought they went and milled in the parking lot. Not so if the lot was fenced off.

Also, there is the video (a still from it was posted recently on the forum) of a sheriff's deputy (?) with a coat folded over his arm leaving the knoll fence, with a cop directing people, from where I thought the fence ended, just where it ends today. If this deputy wasn't coming out from behind the fence, where was he coming from?

A fence extended that far only makes sense if there was a gate or opening in it where the fence ends now. Why has such a gate or opening never been described or even alluded to? It has been my impression from all my reading for all these years that people simply went around the fence on the knoll, period.

Oh well, I still keep learning something every day.

[Robin Unger]

Regarding the item in the previous photo " What's this "

Gary Mack says that it is the FENCE.

He said it was much longer in 1963 than it is now, is the item i reffered to just a continuation of the picket fence.

It seems to stick way out into the carpark area. !

I don't understand this at all. If it's the fence extending that far, then how could any vehicle in the parking lot be seen through it in Nix or any other photo?

And where did all those people go who rushed up the steps after the shooting? I thought they went and milled in the parking lot. Not so if the lot was fenced off.

Also, there is the video (a still from it was posted recently on the forum) of a sheriff's deputy (?) with a coat folded over his arm leaving the knoll fence, with a cop directing people, from where I thought the fence ended, just where it ends today. If this deputy wasn't coming out from behind the fence, where was he coming from?

A fence extended that far only makes sense if there was a gate or opening in it where the fence ends now. Why has such a gate or opening never been described or even alluded to? It has been my impression from all my reading for all these years that people simply went around the fence on the knoll, period.

Oh well, I still keep learning something every day.

Hi Ron.

I may have misread what Gary had stated.

I think Jack is right on the mark with this one, regarding the sleepers.

NICE pic Jack, is there a wider version of that image. ?

[Jack White]

Regarding the item in the previous photo " What's this "

Gary Mack says that it is the FENCE.

He said it was much longer in 1963 than it is now, is the item i reffered to just a continuation of the picket fence.

It seems to stick way out into the carpark area. !

I don't understand this at all. If it's the fence extending that far, then how could any vehicle in the parking lot be seen through it in Nix or any other photo?

And where did all those people go who rushed up the steps after the shooting? I thought they went and milled in the parking lot. Not so if the lot was fenced off.

Also, there is the video (a still from it was posted recently on the forum) of a sheriff's deputy (?) with a coat folded over his arm leaving the knoll fence, with a cop directing people, from where I thought the fence ended, just where it ends today. If this deputy wasn't coming out from behind the fence, where was he coming from?

A fence extended that far only makes sense if there was a gate or opening in it where the fence ends now. Why has such a gate or opening never been described or even alluded to? It has been my impression from all my reading for all these years that people simply went around the fence on the knoll, period.

Oh well, I still keep learning something every day.

Hi Ron.

I may have misread what Gary had stated.

I think Jack is right on the mark with this one, regarding the sleepers.

NICE pic Jack, is there a wider version of that image. ?

I don't know, Robin, but I presume it is cropped from a much

larger image. I saved it some time ago from the internet,

but do not remember who posted it or when, or why they

cropped it from an aerial. I think the topic under discussion

at the time was the "steam pipe" in the foreground. I

accidentally found it in a computer search using the file

word FENCE. I had named it BEHINDFENCE.

Jack

[Robin Unger]

Regarding the item in the previous photo " What's this "

Gary Mack says that it is the FENCE.

He said it was much longer in 1963 than it is now, is the item i reffered to just a continuation of the picket fence.

It seems to stick way out into the carpark area. !

I don't understand this at all. If it's the fence extending that far, then how could any vehicle in the parking lot be seen through it in Nix or any other photo?

And where did all those people go who rushed up the steps after the shooting? I thought they went and milled in the parking lot. Not so if the lot was fenced off.

Also, there is the video (a still from it was posted recently on the forum) of a sheriff's deputy (?) with a coat folded over his arm leaving the knoll fence, with a cop directing people, from where I thought the fence ended, just where it ends today. If this deputy wasn't coming out from behind the fence, where was he coming from?

A fence extended that far only makes sense if there was a gate or opening in it where the fence ends now. Why has such a gate or opening never been described or even alluded to? It has been my impression from all my reading for all these years that people simply went around the fence on the knoll, period.

Oh well, I still keep learning something every day.

Hi Ron.

I may have misread what Gary had stated.

I think Jack is right on the mark with this one, regarding the sleepers.

NICE pic Jack, is there a wider version of that image. ?

I don't know, Robin, but I presume it is cropped from a much

larger image. I saved it some time ago from the internet,

but do not remember who posted it or when, or why they

cropped it from an aerial. I think the topic under discussion

at the time was the "steam pipe" in the foreground. I

accidentally found it in a computer search using the file

word FENCE. I had named it BEHINDFENCE.

Jack

Thanks Jack.

QUOTE:

The picture you posted from POTP was a Fort Worth Star-Telegram photo taken later on Friday afternoon. Jack's picture is by an unknown photographer - but probably Squire Haskins - taken on Sunday afternoon. I have access to some of them, too.

Contrary to what I told you, the knoll stockade fence was the same north-south length in 1963 as it is today; however, it was longer at some point in time, if I am remembering the UPI study of the Nix film a few years later.

What's interesting is that there were railroad ties marking the east boundary of the parking lot and they extended from the end of the fence all the way north past the big tree. The aerial photos strongly suggest there were also ties north of the pergola running east-west. These barriers effectively prevented any vehicles from parking in the area immediately surrounding the pergola.

Personal inspection this morning shows that on the east side of the dirt parking lot there were two rows of ties side by side; they are mostly covered by grass and turf now. Whether there were also two ties on top of each other (for a total of four) cannot be answered by the available aerial pictures.

Gary Mack