Throat Wound

[Ashton Gray]

There is no evidence that any projectile passed through John F. Kennedy's tie, or through his shirt collar.

There are cut mark "nicks" in the shirt collar and the tie. These have been attributed to marks of scalpels used to cut John F. Kennedy's clothes off of him. (Speaking just personally, I recommend that you don't think about that "explanation" of such nicks for very long.)

Ashton Gray

[Ashton Gray]

Submitted for your consideration, here are two photos of John F. Kennedy at Love Field in Dallas, Texas on the morning of 22 November 1963, the day he was murdered. Note the ride of his shirt collar and tie:

In the animation below, the photo of the tracheotomy (sometimes "tracheostomy") opening—which destroyed all the evidence of a reported throat wound—is overlaid with the same shirt and tie from the black-and-white photo above. The clothing has been adjusted to overlay it on the reclining body in the best approximation of the photos above that could be attained. The suit jacket has been made black only because the play of shadows on the jacket in the above image made the overlay confusing to the eye, and the jacket is largely irrelevant to what is being demonstrated:

It is impossible that any projectile fired from a gun could have penetrated John F. Kennedy's throat at the location indicated by the tracheotomy opening, either going or coming, without having penetrated the shirt, the tie, or both.

Neither happened.

"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

—Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

Ashton Gray

Edited January 2, 2007 by Ashton Gray

[Brian Smith]

I think you may be onto something. I have often wondered if the supposed entrance wound in the throat could have been caused by the scalpel used to cut away the tie. The tracheotomy hole is right behind the shirt collar and tie - exactly on the trajectory that the bullet would have to have travelled to cause the entry wound. Maybe the reason no bullet was found, could be that there was no bullet entrance into the throat to begin with. Kennedy was hit in the back by a bullet that penetrated only an inch or two, that either fell out later on, or was removed sometime before (or during) the autopsy. Your animated gif does seem to illustrate that a bullet couldn't have gotten past the shirt and tie. It would have surely created a large, clearly visible hole, in the shirt and tie. David Mantik has a theory that the throat wound was caused by a fragment of glass propelled into Kennedy's throat from a shot through the windshield. Interesting theory, but the problem of how it got past the shirt collar and tie remains.

[Michael G. Smith]

Submitted for your consideration, here are two photos of John F. Kennedy at Love Field in Dallas, Texas on the morning of 22 November 1963, the day he was murdered. Note the ride of his shirt collar and tie:

In the animation below, the photo of the tracheotomy (sometimes "tracheostomy") opening—which destroyed all the evidence of a reported throat wound—is overlaid with the same shirt and tie from the black-and-white photo above. The clothing has been adjusted to overlay it on the reclining body in the best approximation of the photos above that could be attained. The suit jacket has been made black only because the play of shadows on the jacket in the above image made the overlay confusing to the eye, and the jacket is largely irrelevant to what is being demonstrated:

It is impossible that any projectile fired from a gun could have penetrated John F. Kennedy's throat at the location indicated by the tracheotomy opening, either going or coming, without having penetrated the shirt, the tie, or both.

Neither happened.

"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

—Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

Ashton Gray

Hey Ashton, great images and theory. Considering they could have done a better job with a chainsaw, going by the pictures we have all seen, its obvious it was done to hide something. There was "something" there, wheather it be an entrance bullet hole, dart, "murder slice" or what have you. I understand your thought on the "hole". Personally I dont think the "nicks" on the tie and shirt, were from cutting. If you were going to get his tie off ASAP, I would think, from my point, would be to cut it on side, fast and easy. I wouldnt be fooling around with the knot, and then rip the shirt off. [why they even tried is beyond me, having him come in with half his head blown off. I dont know how they thought it would help, but then we werent there] Im not thinking on this too long either.[lol] I believe that the "nicks" probably were from a "shot" of some kind. The animation you present, is terrific. But we are guessing, as close as possible here. It could be off enough, I would guess, to have the "projectile" nick the top of the tie and shirt. I dont think we are talking a whole lot here, and from the Zfilm, we cant see what position he was really in when he was hit. [plus, can we trust the photos that were shown??] I dont think anyone there in the ER could have gotten away with "cutting his throat", with all of the people present. Thinking on it, they would have to do it ASAP, to make sure he didnt keep breathing, not later on after he was pronounced dead. I would think there would have been a whole room full of doctors present when he was brought in, nurses, and what have you. I cant see how they could all be in on cutting him. There just doesnt seem like there would have been the opportunity, without someone else seeing what was going on. I dont think it could have been done on the way to the hospital, or any time preceding their arrival at the ER. The wound we see in the autopsy photos show a large wound, considering all you need, from my understanding, is a clean slice to insert the tube or what have you. Im not a doctor, [and I didnt sleep at a Holiday Inn Express either. lol!] but that wound is excessive from my point, and alot of other peoples too I would assume. The "hack job" we see in the photos was done, on the plane or when they arrived back in MD, not in Dallas. [when whatever else was done to alter any wounds] Just my opinion buddy, FWIW.

thanks-smitty

[Brian Smith]

I don't think anyone there in the ER could have gotten away with "cutting his throat", with all of the people present.

Could his throat have been cut accidentally, as the medical personnel scrambled to get his shirt and tie loosened for the tracheotomy? Most people would claim that he was hit in the throat from the front, solely because he raises his hands upward at around frame 224 of the Zapruder film. But lone gunman proponent Dr. John Lattimer pointed out an an automatic neuromuscular reaction to spinal trauma termed "Thorburns Position," in which the victim involuntarily raises his arms and shoulders upward in reaction to the spinal trauma. If you look closely at the Z film, Kennedy really doesn't seem to be clutching at his throat, but seems to have raised his balled fists up in a defensive posture. Could there be something to the "Thorburns Position" explanation after all?

[Michael G. Smith]

I don't think anyone there in the ER could have gotten away with "cutting his throat", with all of the people present.

Could his throat have been cut accidentally, as the medical personnel scrambled to get his shirt and tie loosened for the tracheotomy? Most people would claim that he was hit in the throat from the front, solely because he raises his hands upward at around frame 224 of the Zapruder film. But lone gunman proponent Dr. John Lattimer pointed out an an automatic neuromuscular reaction to spinal trauma termed "Thorburns Position," in which the victim involuntarily raises his arms and shoulders upward in reaction to the spinal trauma. If you look closely at the Z film, Kennedy really doesn't seem to be clutching at his throat, but seems to have raised his balled fists up in a defensive posture. Could there be something to the "Thorburns Position" explanation after all?

Going back to the "Express thing".......I dont know. Your right about the arms. The bullet wound in the back seemed a bit right for the coloum, though....who really knows were it really went??? Word is it only went in a few inches if that. Regardless, he was hit at some point behind the sign going by the film. What he was reacting to......???? In the one report, there is the reciept of a projectile being handed over. What the projectile is, again...who knows?? From their report, he was hit in the neck, by what appeared to be a frontal entrance wound. I would believe the Parkland report over anything else thereafter for it being closest to being the truth. We are speculating, and just giving opinions here. Just mine FWIW

thanks-smitty

[Ashton Gray]

I don't think anyone there in the ER could have gotten away with "cutting his throat", with all of the people present.

Could his throat have been cut accidentally, as the medical personnel scrambled to get his shirt and tie loosened for the tracheotomy? Most people would claim that he was hit in the throat from the front, solely because he raises his hands upward at around frame 224 of the Zapruder film. But lone gunman proponent Dr. John Lattimer pointed out an an automatic neuromuscular reaction to spinal trauma termed "Thorburns Position," in which the victim involuntarily raises his arms and shoulders upward in reaction to the spinal trauma. If you look closely at the Z film, Kennedy really doesn't seem to be clutching at his throat, but seems to have raised his balled fists up in a defensive posture. Could there be something to the "Thorburns Position" explanation after all?

My current opinion is that the reaction you're describing, or something akin to it, likely has a great deal to do with what I see in the Zapruder film after JFK emerges from behind the Stemmons sign. At no time does he actually clutch at his throat. In fact, a careful and impartial study of the Zapruder film from the Stemmons sign to the head shot finds JFK pointing down to his chest around the time the limo passes the lamp post. Although he clearly is gripped in some sort of spasm, still, his right hand lowers toward his chest and his left forefinger is seen pointing down to his chest. With whatever brief thought processes there was time for, he might even have mistaken the radiating shock of the impact for a heart attack.

Although I can't say for certain what reaction one would expect from a person who had been shot in the throat, compromising his breathing, I've never thought it would be what is depicted in the Zapruder film. This could wander so far into speculation that I won't bother, except to say I would expect something much more extreme in someone who still had faculties and any motor control.

In comparison, the reaction that is seen does not seem at all inconsistent, to me, for a reaction to a nonfatal gunshot wound to the back.

As for any idea that the nicks in the collar and tie were from a projectile, there isn't even a straw to clutch at.

The only way a small, neat 4-7 mm puncture wound could have been made in the throat at the location of the so-called tracheotomy butchery is by a human hand with an instrument that would make just such a puncture wound. And it would not be by just any human hand: it would be one that would know just where the tracheotomy cut would be made to obscure the work.

Ashton

Edited January 3, 2007 by Ashton Gray

[Ashton Gray]

Hey Ashton, great images and theory. Considering they could have done a better job with a chainsaw, going by the pictures we have all seen, its obvious it was done to hide something.

Yes, it is obvious.

I haven't reached to formal or comprehensive theory. I've eliminated what clearly, to me, is the impossible in the matter of the reported throat wound, and only speculated about the few possibilities that are left.

Ashton

Edited January 3, 2007 by Ashton Gray

[Jack White]

Submitted for your consideration, here are two photos of John F. Kennedy at Love Field in Dallas, Texas on the morning of 22 November 1963, the day he was murdered. Note the ride of his shirt collar and tie:

In the animation below, the photo of the tracheotomy (sometimes "tracheostomy") opening—which destroyed all the evidence of a reported throat wound—is overlaid with the same shirt and tie from the black-and-white photo above. The clothing has been adjusted to overlay it on the reclining body in the best approximation of the photos above that could be attained. The suit jacket has been made black only because the play of shadows on the jacket in the above image made the overlay confusing to the eye, and the jacket is largely irrelevant to what is being demonstrated:

It is impossible that any projectile fired from a gun could have penetrated John F. Kennedy's throat at the location indicated by the tracheotomy opening, either going or coming, without having penetrated the shirt, the tie, or both.

Neither happened.

"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

—Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

Ashton Gray

Nice gif Ashton! I used to show the same point in my slideshow two decades

ago. If you check, the HSCA addressed this, as I recall. They were puzzled

that the neck wound appeared to be a neat round ENTRY wound instead of

a SBT-required jagged EXIT wound. So they made up the fiction that the

TIGHTNESS of JFK's collar and tie constrained the flesh tightly so that the bullet

MADE A ROUND EXIT HOLE instead.

Your animation shows it much clearer than my slide does.

KUTGW.

Jack

Edited January 3, 2007 by Jack White

[Cliff Varnell]

Hey Ashton, great images and theory. Considering they could have done a better job with a chainsaw, going by the pictures we have all seen, its obvious it was done to hide something.

I haven't reached to formal or comprehensive theory.

That's what happens when people start with a conclusion and work backwards

to make all the evidence fit the conclusion, like this exercise dressing a dead

man.

I've eliminated what clearly, to me, is the impossible in the matter of the reported throat wound, and only speculated about the few possibilities that are left.

Ashton

Ah, it must be great to have a pet theory that arbitrarily indicts people for treason

and murder because what they say doesn't fit the theory.

How fun!

Edited January 3, 2007 by Cliff Varnell

[Charles Black]

To all who have responded to this thread :

I was originally going to offer apologies to the shoes that I would no doubt step on........I have decided otherwise.

This in my not so humble opinion, is as obvious a "Grasp at Straws" as I have EVER seen. It is not a grasp, but a giant leap into space ! I find it unbelievable that members of this particular forum,

are so easily swayed. About the only accusation that I have not heard is a possible throat cut by the priest administering last rites.

Do you think that the Parklsnd personnel used a hatchet or a meat cleaver to remove the tie? We are talking about SURGEONS. There is no absolute proof regarding the "nick" on the tie. The tie itself was certainly not massacred !

These were persons that removing ties and clothing was a job that they performrd several times every day. They were not mule skinners !

It is equally surprising to me that one can go so far in an attempted alteration of truth, that in good conscience, they could even "intimate" that JFK was not responding to throat trauma as he emerged from behind the freeway sign. Do you feel that he was responding to a hemmorhoid attack ?

I wish you would all read, either again or for the first time, my response to this thread in Post # 9.

I more firmly than ever maintain what I posted !

I offer no apologies when I absolutely state that I feel this thread has gone Looney Tunes.....and there are no doubt a number of members whom it well satisfies !

Charlie Black

[Cliff Varnell]

Submitted for your consideration, here are two photos of John F. Kennedy at Love Field in Dallas, Texas on the morning of 22 November 1963, the day he was murdered. Note the ride of his shirt collar and tie:

In the animation below, the photo of the tracheotomy (sometimes "tracheostomy") opening—which destroyed all the evidence of a reported throat wound—is overlaid with the same shirt and tie from the black-and-white photo above. The clothing has been adjusted to overlay it on the reclining body in the best approximation of the photos above that could be attained. The suit jacket has been made black only because the play of shadows on the jacket in the above image made the overlay confusing to the eye, and the jacket is largely irrelevant to what is being demonstrated:

It is impossible that any projectile fired from a gun could have penetrated John F. Kennedy's throat at the location indicated by the tracheotomy opening, either going or coming, without having penetrated the shirt, the tie, or both.

Neither happened.

"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

—Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

Ashton Gray

Is it possible Ashton Gray could have picked worse photos to judge the location of

JFK's adams apple?

The wound was below the adams apple right above the knot of the tie.

JFK did NOT wear his shirt collar right at the level of his adams apple, as per

the Gospel of Ashton Gray

[Charles Black]

Hello Cliff

I more than agree with your prior post.

Mr Gray has been doing some very questionable things in my opinion. Not only was his choice of pictures quite disingenous......but the TOPIC itself (the Parkland doctors mangling the body), I doubt would be given a second look by any of the "rags" sold at the supermarket counters.

I do not know Mr. Gray, however this is not the only off beat subject that he has latched onto like a bulldog. In this ridiculous scenario, he has either surgeons who are all gifted with two left hands and are also partially blind, or he has them as an integral, planned element of the conspiracy.

He cannot understand JFK's response to throat trauma as he is not "clutching" his throat. People who have throat trauma "do not" clutch their throat because this action tends to further choke them.

Anyone who has ever had much experience feeding an infant, immediately recognizes this "choking" reaction. Hands are lifted in front of the face, often with the palms outward, they do not "grasp" anything, and they make a choking sound while exhibiting a quite quizzical look . They do not understand what has happened! If my memory is correct, this is basically the exact reaction which

Jackie explained that she witnessed in her husband.

If I were asked to choose "one group of witnesses" whom I had the most faith in regarding their testimonies on 11/22/63......It would without hesitation, be the Parkland Trauma Staff !

Whether Mr. Gray is intimating that the Parkland Staff were conspirators or whether they were all Neanderthals who had picked up scalpels....I cannot be certain. I do feel quite certain that he is as off track as any trumped up theory that I have ever heard regarding this case.

I am having difficulty deciding which one of two possible motives that Mr. Gray is displaying by his "strange choice of topics" upon which he expounds.

The two motives that I feel are most obvious are :

1) He feels that he is clever enough to lead the gullible on fake treasure hunts. Fake because there is never treasure after the much wasted time.

2) I have no proof to base my next possible motive upon, but were he one whose purpose it is to misguide and waste vast amounts of forum space and time......he has excelled !

3) Other than these warnings, which may be misguided, I have decided that my wisest use of time, is to bypass Mr. Gray's future "generous contributions" to this forum.

Seriously ! Does anyone agree that what I think is a ridiculous waste of time, discussing conspiracy and malpractice in the Parkland Trauma room, will contribute anything toward the solution of this case?

Mr Gray is leading you down that well worn path which is bound to keep this case open for centuries. That path is the reasoning .... "if you can't absolutely prove that it didn't occur..it is then a possibility that MUST be explored."

For those of you who are challenged to spend a lifetime "attempting to prove a negative", my opinions in this post will seem to you as quite ridiculous.

I intend for this to hopefully be the last time that I mention Mr. Gray!

Charlie Black

[Dawn Meredith]

I have a difficult time believing that the entire Parkland ER staff was in on the conspiracy, but two things have always puzzled me greatly: If there was an entry wound to the throat where is the corresponding exit wound? And with the president's head blown apart, he was clearly DOA, so why on earth was ANY surgery performed on the throat?

Dawn

[Brian Smith]

I have a difficult time believing that the entire Parkland ER staff was in on the conspiracy, but two things have always puzzled me greatly: If there was an entry wound to the throat where is the corresponding exit wound? And with the president's head blown apart, he was clearly DOA, so why on earth was ANY surgery performed on the throat?

Dawn

It doesn't really make sense to me either, but I have read that it is standard trauma room procedure to do every thing possible to sustain the life of the victim, regardless of how grave the injuries may be. I do have a hard time believing that one of the medical personnel made the hole on purpose though. I don't think anyone really knew the problems that the "lone gunman/ single bullet from behind" theory would present at that early stage of the coverup. It probably wasn't until later in the day that the perpetrators really understood the problems that the actual wounds presented to the single shooter story. I remember reading recently that one of the autopsy technicians (John Stringer?) told the ARRB that a missing X-ray showed a trail of metallic fragments in the throat/neck. I know it was Stringer who said that several X-rays and photos are missing. He is the man who took the autopsy photos.

I am not blindly following Mr. Gray's theory, but am just observing that it is an interesting alternative explanation. I'm not an expert on the case, and I'm sure there are good points to be made to refute it. I don't believe the matter is as open and shut as some others though.