Thomas H. Purvis Posted May 15, 2007 Share Posted May 15, 2007 ==================================================================================== The U.S. Secret Service survey work and assassination re-enactment of December 1963 is, for all practical purposes, accurate. Three shots were fired, the last two of which struck JFK in the head. One at Z312/313 and the last shot some 30-feet farther down the road in front of James Altgens. It is that simple! Not remotely!!! While you keep looking at the shot distances, you miss that the SS and FBI, almost from day one, insisted the last shot was the head shot. They were claiming the head shot at 313 was out by the steps. Eisenberg caught them in their "mistake." Gauthier, furthermore, turned in his exhibits before Specter had begun his work. It was up to Specter to clean up his mess... and make a mess of his own. You really have not caught on yet! The last shot was A headshot. ================================================================================ == Mr. ALTGENS - This would put me at approximately this area here, which would be about 15 feet from me at the time he was shot in the head--about 15 feet from the car on the west side of the car--on the side that Mrs. Kennedy was riding in the car. There was not another shot fired after the President was struck in the head. That was the last shot--that much I will say with a great degree of certainty. ================================================================================ == Just as was the second shot! ================================================================================ == Mr. HUDSON - Well there was a young fellow, oh, I would judge his age about in his late twenties. He said he had been looking for a place to park and he walked up there and he said he finally just taken a place over there in one of them parking lots, and he come on down there and said he worked over there on Industrial and me and him both just sat there first on those steps. When the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm, we got up and stood up, me and him both. He was on the left side and I was on the right and so the first shot rung out and, of course, I didn't realize it was a shot, what was taking place right at that present time, and when the second one rung out, the motorcade had done got further on down Elm, and you see, I was trying to get a good look at President Kennedy. I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet hit him - the second shot. Mr. LIEBELER - That was when the bullet hit him in the head; is that correct? Mr. HUDSON - Yes; it looked like it ht him somewhere along about a little bit behind the ear and a little bit above the ear. Mr. LIEBELER - On the right-hand side or the left-hand side? Mr. HUDSON - Right hand. ================================================================================ === Glen Bennett's original notes of 11/22/63 http://jfkassassination.net/russ/exhibits/ce2112.htm "I saw a shot that hit the Boss about 4 inches down from the right shoulder; a second shot followed immediately and hit the right rear back of the Boss's head." ================================================================================ == http://jfkassassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/Sa-landi.htm "I heard a second report and it appeared that the President's head split open" "I saw pieces of flesh and blood flying through the air" "The time lapse between the first and second report must have been about four or five seconds." ================================================================================ == http://jfkassassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/sa-kinne.htm I was driving SS 679-X, follow-up. As we turned off Main Street (left) about 4 minutes from our destination of Trade Mart. The first shot was fired as we were going into an underpass. The first shot was fired, I glanced from the taillight of SS 100-X, at the President and it appeared that he had been shot because he slumped to the left. Immediately he sat up again.* At this time the second shot was fired and I observed hair flying from the right side of his head. With this, simultaneously with the President's car, we stepped on the gas. I released the siren at that time. I did hear three shots but do not recall which shots were those that hit the President. ================================================================================ == http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/brehm.htm BREHM said when the President was hit by the second shot, he could notice the President's hair fly up, and then roll over to his side, as Mrs. KENNEDY was apparently pulling him in that direction. ================================================================================ == Mr. HUDSON - Yes; so right along about even with these steps, pretty close to even with this here, the last shot was fired - somewhere right along in there Mr. LIEBELER - So, it is clear from your testimony that the third shot--the last shot, rather--hit the President? Mr. ALTGENS - Well, off and on we have been referring to the third shot and the fourth shot; but actually, it was the last shot, the shot did strike the President and there was no other sound like a shot that was made after that. Mr. ALTGENS - This would put me at approximately this area here, which would be about 15 feet from me at the time he was shot in the head--about 15 feet from the car on the west side of the car--on the side that Mrs. Kennedy was riding in the car. Mr. ALTGENS - Yes. What made me almost certain that the shot came from behind was because at the time I was looking at the President, just as he was struck There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing ================================================================================ ==== "Quickly there was a second shot (John had turned to the right at the first shot to look back & had then whirled to the left to get another look---realized the President had been shot said "No, No, No) Was hit and said "My God, they are are going to kill us all"--Wheeled back to the right crumpling his shoulders and his knees in the most unpleasant & pitiful position a tall big man could be in. I reached over and pulled him to me & tried to get us both down in the car. Then came a third shot. With John in my arms and still trying to stay down I did not see the third shot hit--but I felt something falling all over me. My sensation was of spent buckshot. My eyes saw bloody matter in tiny bits all over the car." Nellie Connally, handwritten notes made 10 days after the event. http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z313.jpg Certainly would appear that JBC is a long way from being over in Nellie's lap at this point! ================================================================================ ==== Now! Were it that I were the SS and I insisted that the third/last shot struck JFK in the head, I would neither be incorrect/wrong, nor would I be telling a lie. Were it that I were the SS and I insisted that the second shot struck JFK in the head, I would neither be incorrect/wrong, nor would I be telling a lie. ================================================================================ ==== Lastlly! Failure to understand the evidence has no bearing on the validity of that evidence. It merely means that one does not understand the evidence." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted May 15, 2007 Share Posted May 15, 2007 ==================================================================================== The U.S. Secret Service survey work and assassination re-enactment of December 1963 is, for all practical purposes, accurate. Three shots were fired, the last two of which struck JFK in the head. One at Z312/313 and the last shot some 30-feet farther down the road in front of James Altgens. It is that simple! Not remotely!!! While you keep looking at the shot distances, you miss that the SS and FBI, almost from day one, insisted the last shot was the head shot. They were claiming the head shot at 313 was out by the steps. Eisenberg caught them in their "mistake." Gauthier, furthermore, turned in his exhibits before Specter had begun his work. It was up to Specter to clean up his mess... and make a mess of his own. Not remotely!!! Well Pat: Us ole Mississippi backwoods/swamp rat country boys just can not get a grasp on all of that complicated stuff which goes into great detail on body snatching, wound alteration, and assassins hiding in ever nook, cranny, manhole, and behind every tree and fence, and in each of the buildings located in Dealy Plaza. Therefore, we have to stick with those things which we understand. The simple facts! ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/hudson.htm Mr. HUDSON - Well there was a young fellow, oh, I would judge his age about in his late twenties. He said he had been looking for a place to park and he walked up there and he said he finally just taken a place over there in one of them parking lots, and he come on down there and said he worked over there on Industrial and me and him both just sat there first on those steps. When the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm, we got up and stood up, me and him both. He was on the left side and I was on the right and so the first shot rung out and, of course, I didn't realize it was a shot, what was taking place right at that present time, and when the second one rung out, the motorcade had done got further on down Elm, and you see, I was trying to get a good look at President Kennedy. I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet hit him - the second shot. Mr. LIEBELER - That was when the bullet hit him in the head; is that correct? Mr. HUDSON - Yes; it looked like it ht him somewhere along about a little bit behind the ear and a little bit above the ear. Mr. LIEBELER - On the right-hand side or the left-hand side? Mr. HUDSON - Right hand. Mr. LIEBELER - You say that it was the second shot that hit him in the head; is that right? Mr. HUDSON - Yes; I do believe that - I know it was. Mr. LIEBELER - You saw him hit in the head, there wasn't any question in your mind about that, was there? Mr. HUDSON - No, sir. Mr. LIEBELER - And after you saw him hit in the head, did you here another shot? Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir. Mr. LIEBELER - Did you see that shot hit anything - the third shot? Mr. HUDSON - No, sir. I'll tell you - this young fellow that was sitting there with me - standing there with me at the present time, he says, "lay down, Mister, somebody is shooting the President." He says, "Lay down, lay down." and he kept repeating, "Lay down." so he was already laying down one way on the sidewalk, so I just laid down over on the ground and resting my arm on the ground and when that third shot rung out and when I was close to the ground - you could tell the shot was coming from above and kind of behind. Mr. LIEBELER - You say it was the second shot that hit him in the head? Mr. HUDSON - Yes. Mr. LIEBELER - And you saw the President get hit by what you heard as the second shot? Mr. HUDSON - Yes. Mr. HUDSON - Yes; so right along about even with these steps, pretty close to even with this here, the last shot was fired - somewhere right along in there. Mr. LIEBELER - You think the last shot was fired and the car was about where it actually is in that picture when the third shot was fired? Mr. HUDSON - Pretty close to it; yes, sir. Mr. LIEBELER - But you think the President had already been hit in the head by the time the third shot was fired? Mr. HUDSON - He had been hit twice, so Parkland Hospital said. He was hit in the neck one time and in the head one time. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://jfkassassination.net/russ/exhibits/ce2112.htm "I saw a shot that hit the Boss about 4 inches down from the right shoulder; a second shot followed immediately and hit the right rear high of the Boss's head" ================================================================================ == http://jfkassassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/Sa-hicke.htm The first shot of the second two seemed as if it missed because the hair on the right side of his head flew forward and there didn't seem to be any impact against his head. The last shot seemed to hit his head and cause a noise at the point of impact which made him fall forward and to his left again. - I heard what appeared to be two shots and it seemed as if the right side of his head was hit and his hair flew forward. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ http://jfkassassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/sa-kinne.htm As we completed the left turn and on a short distance, there was a shot. At this time I glanced from the taillights of the President's car, that I use for gauging distances for driving. I saw the President lean toward the left and appeared to have grabbed his chest with his right hand. There was a second of pause and then two more shots were heard. At this time the second shot was fired and I observed hair flying from the right side of his head. With this, simultaneously with the President's car, we stepped on the gas. I released the siren at that time. I did hear three shots but do not recall which shots were those that hit the President. ================================================================================ == http://jfkassassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/Sa-landi.htm It was at this moment that I heard a second report and it appeared that the President's head split open with a muffled exploding sound. I can best describe the sound as I heard it, as the sound you would get by shooting a high powered bullet into a five gallon can of water or shooting into a melon. I saw pieces of flesh and blood flying through the air and the President slumped out of sight towards Mrs. Kennedy. The time lapse between the first and second report must have been about four or five seconds. ================================================================================ === http://jfkassassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/Sa-mcint.htm After the second shot, I looked at the President and witnessed his being struck in the head by the third and last shot ================================================================================ == http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/altgens.htm Mr. ALTGENS - Well, it sounded like it was coming up from behind the car from my position--I mean the first shot, and being fireworks--who counts fireworks explosions? I wasn't keeping track of the number of pops that took place, but I could vouch for No. 1, and I can vouch for the last shot, but I cannot tell you how many shots were in between. There was not another shot fired after the President was struck in the head. That was the last shot--that much I will say with a great degree of certainty. Mr. LIEBELER - So, it is clear from your testimony that the third shot--the last shot, rather--hit the President? Mr. ALTGENS - Well, off and on we have been referring to the third shot and the fourth shot; but actually, it was the last shot, the shot did strike the President and there was no other sound like a shot that was made after that. I was just going to make a conclusion here, but that's not my place to do that, so I'll just forget it--what I was going to say. There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing ================================================================================ === "Quickly there was a second shot (John had turned to the right at the first shot to look back & had then whirled to the left to get another look---realized the President had been shot said "No, No, No) Was hit and said "My God, they are are going to kill us all"--Wheeled back to the right crumpling his shoulders and his knees in the most unpleasant & pitiful position a tall big man could be in. I reached over and pulled him to me & tried to get us both down in the car. Then came a third shot. With John in my arms and still trying to stay down I did not see the third shot hit--but I felt something falling all over me. My sensation was of spent buckshot. My eyes saw bloody matter in tiny bits all over the car." Nellie Connally, handwritten notes made 10 days after the event. http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z313.jpg Certainly would appear that JBC is a long way from being over in Nellie's lap at this point! ================================================================================ ==== Failure to understand the evidence has no bearing on the validity of that evidence. It merely means that one does not understand the evidence. Were I a SS Agent who witnessed the LAST/Third shot strike JFK, then I would neither be confused nor would I be telling a lie, if I were to state this. Were I another SS Agent who witnessed the SECOND/aka Z313 shot strike JFK, then I would neither be confused nor would I be telling a lie, if I were to state this. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- While you keep looking at the shot distances, Exactly how many years have you wasted under the erroneous assumption that the Z312/313 headshot was the last shot? How many erroneous pathways has this lead you down? you miss that the SS and FBI, almost from day one, insisted the last shot was the head shot. Well, had I even actually done this, it would be far better than missing that the Z312/313 shot WAS NOT the last shot fired, and thus becoming lost in this assumption. By the way, just in case you did not notice, the majority of the SS testified that what they observed was the SECOND shot strike JFK in the head. Gauthier, furthermore, turned in his exhibits before Specter had begun his work. It was up to Specter to clean up his mess... and make a mess of his own. Actually! Specter was cleaning up two mess's. The primary one related to the FBI was the cleanup of the February 1964 FBI re-enactment and survey work in which JEH & Company moved the second shot (Z313) back/prior to it's impact point, to a point which was approximately 25 feet prior to the actual impact point. Which by the way placed this impact point prior to JFK having passed Jean Hill & Mary Moorman. Thereafter, the third shot/aka down in front of Altgens position, was moved back to the Z313 position. All nice and neat to support JEH's lie. Lie caught! Only 25 feet separation distance now between shot# 2 and #3! Vehicle speed absolutely preculded this from being possible with/from the bolt action rifle. JEH's attempt at telling this lie was fully caught, and thus Arlen Specter now had two lies in which to obscure the facts. Which is of course why he had the assistance of the FBI as well as Gauthier helping to obscure the facts related to the SS Survey and re-enactment as well as the ever so "slight" sleight-of-hand admission of the WC Survey Plat in a sealed envelope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Rigby Posted May 16, 2007 Author Share Posted May 16, 2007 I believe in a free flow of information, for better or worse, and have tried, however imperfectly, to practice what I preach. The question is, does Mack believe in open, informed debate? Paul, It doesn't matter how many copies Zapruder had made of his film ... how many copies any Federal branch made ... or how many bootlegs Garrison and others made - they all show the same event. And while I too, believe in a free flow of information ... it seems that some folks do not see it as free flowing information when it doesn't support their position. Then what seemingly soon follows with them is a free flow of disinformation. Bill Miller The remedy, if such be needed, is in the hands of you, Mack et al - contribute what you've got, and argue from there, with the evidence before those who wish to read it and participate. Not very difficult, surely? Unless, of course, what your side refuses to disclose doesn't reinforce the party line. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted May 16, 2007 Share Posted May 16, 2007 Thomas, Altgen's testimony doesn't describe the (1st head shot). He only deals with the last shot (2nd head shot), the one closest to him. Why? Mr. ALTGENS - Well, it sounded like it was coming up from behind the car from my position--I mean the first shot, and being fireworks--who counts fireworks explosions? I wasn't keeping track of the number of pops that took place, but I could vouch for No. 1, and I can vouch for the last shot, but I cannot tell you how many shots were in between. There was not another shot fired after the President was struck in the head. That was the last shot--that much I will say with a great degree of certainty. Mr. LIEBELER - So, it is clear from your testimony that the third shot--the last shot, rather--hit the President? Mr. ALTGENS - Well, off and on we have been referring to the third shot and the fourth shot; but actually, it was the last shot, the shot did strike the President and there was no other sound like a shot that was made after that. I was just going to make a conclusion here, but that's not my place to do that, so I'll just forget it--what I was going to say. There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing. thanks chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Speer Posted May 16, 2007 Share Posted May 16, 2007 For Tom, from patspeer.com. "On 1-20-64, we receive a shock. On the first page of a 65-page packet of visual aids and memos from the FBI’s Exhibits Section (CD 298) is a letter from J. Edgar Hoover himself, telling us that 28 copies of this packet have been sent out to Warren Commission counsel and staff per General Counsel Rankin’s request. When we look inside, however, we find that the Exhibits Section of the FBI has been conducting a separate investigation from the Investigative Division run by Rosen and has come to some surprising conclusions. We just can’t believe it. There is photo after photo of the FBI’s model of Dealey Plaza, and photo after photo depicting the limousine in front of the concrete steps at the time of the third shot. At the end of the packet, moreover, is a summary of the Exhibit Section’s findings. Under the heading “What was the aiming pattern of the assassin’s target?” it reads: a. SHOT ONE hit the target from a distance of 167 feet, measured downward along a 23-degree angle from the horizontal. (P.S. THIS CORRESPONDS ROUGHLY TO THE LIMO’S POSITION AT FRAME 197 OF THE ZAPRUDER FILM, WHEN THE LIMOUSINE WAS BEHIND A TREE FOR A SHOT FIRED FROM THE SNIPER’S NEST.) b. SHOT TWO hit the target from a distance of 262 feet, measured downward along an 18-degree angle from the horizontal. The target moved forward 96 feet in 4.4 seconds at 15 mph (22fps) or 5.5 seconds at 12 mph (17.6 fps). Line of sight change from shot one: 5 degrees upward, 4 degrees to the right. (P.S. THIS IS AN OBVIOUS REFERENCE TO FRAME 313 OF THE ZAPRUDER FILM, THE MOMENT OF THE FATAL HEADSHOT, DETERMINED ON 11-27-63 TO HAVE BEEN FIRED FROM 260 FEET AND EVENTUALLY DETERMINED TO HAVE BEEN FIRED FROM 265 FEET.) c. SHOT THREE hit the target from a distance of 307 feet, measured downward along a 15 degree angle from the horizontal. The target moved forward 45 feet in 2.0 seconds at 15 mph (22 fps) or 2.5 seconds at 12 mph (17.6 fps). Line of sight change from shot two: 3 degrees upward, 1.5 degrees to the right. (P.S. THIS CORRESPONDS ROUGHLY TO KENNEDY’S POSITION AT FRAME 358 OF THE ZAPRUDER FILM, APPROXIMATELY 2 1/2 SECONDS AFTER THE FATAL HEADSHOT.) d. ELAPSED TIME to hit targets two and three after hitting target one: 6.4 seconds at 15 mph (22 fps) or 8.0 seconds at 12 mph (17.6 fps). e. CHANGE OF AIMING PATTERN from shot one to shot three: 8 degrees upward, 5.5 degrees to the right. From this, we can see that the photos were not a mistake. The report clearly suggests there was a shot after the head shot. But it also says “Shot Three hit the target.” So which shot came after the head shot? Did they conclude Connally was hit after the head shot? Well…no. In another section of the summary, a brief description is given of the Zapruder film, in which it is made clear that Connally was hit before the fatal headshot. It states: “The car momentarily became obscured from Zapruder’s line of sight behind a road sign (refer to scale model). As it emerged from behind the sign, the Zapruder film reproduced the action of the occupants of the car as follows: The President is slumped forward in his seat with his right hand partly lowered from the previous waving position, he appears to be leaning toward his left nearer to Mrs. Kennedy; Governor Connally is seen turning his head to the right and rear, falling towards Mrs. Connally, as a circle of light resembling an explosive blast encircles the President’s head.” As the report also describes the assassination film of Orville Nix, filmed from opposite Zapruder, and as the Nix film clearly shows the head shot occurring when the limousine is in front of the pedestal, forty five feet closer to the school book depository than the steps, the Exhibits Section should have known that their second shot was the head shot. As to how this escaped them, one can only guess. In his 6-4-64 testimony before the Commission, Exhibits Section Chief Leo Gauthier revealed that the data used by his section in making the exhibits was obtained in Dallas on December 2, 3 and 4, and that it took his people five weeks to create their model. This suggests they used the 12-5 Secret Service Survey performed for Elmer Moore as the basis for their exhibits. If so, however, why did they place the first shot 17 feet closer, the second shot 20 feet further, and the third shot 13 feet further from the sniper’s nest than Moore? Ultimately, all we can take from the 12-5-64 Secret Service Plat and Gauthier’s exhibits is that the Secret Service and FBI were blindly clutching at straws trying to give Oswald enough time to have fired all three shots. Either that or their eyes were wide open and they were trying to deceive the commission." (P.S. your assertion that both the second and third shots were interpreted as "head shots" is rather silly. No one describes two head shots, least of all Altgens, who described one early shot and one head shot." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted May 16, 2007 Share Posted May 16, 2007 Thomas,Altgen's testimony doesn't describe the (1st head shot). He only deals with the last shot (2nd head shot), the one closest to him. Why? Mr. ALTGENS - Well, it sounded like it was coming up from behind the car from my position--I mean the first shot, and being fireworks--who counts fireworks explosions? I wasn't keeping track of the number of pops that took place, but I could vouch for No. 1, and I can vouch for the last shot, but I cannot tell you how many shots were in between. There was not another shot fired after the President was struck in the head. That was the last shot--that much I will say with a great degree of certainty. Mr. LIEBELER - So, it is clear from your testimony that the third shot--the last shot, rather--hit the President? Mr. ALTGENS - Well, off and on we have been referring to the third shot and the fourth shot; but actually, it was the last shot, the shot did strike the President and there was no other sound like a shot that was made after that. I was just going to make a conclusion here, but that's not my place to do that, so I'll just forget it--what I was going to say. There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing. thanks chris Altgen's testimony doesn't describe the (1st head shot). He only deals with the last shot (2nd head shot), the one closest to him. Why? If one looks at the Altgens photo which was taken at approximately Z255, then one has some appreciation for the lower elevation difference between where James Altgens was standing and where JFK was located on Elm St. At Z255, street elevation for JFK was slightly more than 421 feet, while the street elevation at Altgen's position was slightly higher than 416. Thus, at this point, (exclulding the curb height where Altgens was standing), Altgens was standing at a point which was approximately 5-feet lower than the street elevation of Z255. All of which can be clearly seen in the Altgens photo in which JFK can be seen through the windshield of the Presidential Limo. After having taken the Z255 shot, Altgens had to manually re-focus his camera, which would have caused him to have taken his eyes off the target (JFK). "I was prepared to make a picture at the very instant the President was shot. I had refocused to 15 feet because I wanted a good closeup of the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and that's why I know that it would be right at 15 feet, because I had prefocused in that area, and I had my camera almost to my eye when it happened and that's as far as I got with my camera." http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z342.jpg The headshot at Z313 was approximately 3 seconds after Altgens took his Z255 photo of the Presidential Limo as it approached his position. I must therefore assume that a combination of items are what caused Altgens not to see the spray of blood and cerebral tissue as seen in the Z313 impact. 1. Altgens was engaged in manually re-focusing his camera and thus was looking down at the camera and not "up" the street at the Presidential Limo and JFK. 2. At Z313, street elevation was approximately 418.5, with James Altgens still located at approximately 416.5 (curb height added in). Thus even here, the street elevation was some 2-feet higher than at Altgen's position. With the added elevation to the top of JFK's head, which was slightly more than 3-feet, JFK's head would have been at an elevation of approximately 421.5 (418.5 street elevation + height above street of JFK). Assuming Mr. Altgens was 6-feet tall, then his camera would have been at an approximately elevation of 416.5 + 6 = 421.5. Therefore, even had Altgens been looking directly at JFK at impact of the Z313 headshot, he may have observed the blood and debri splatter of the shot as it went vertically skyward, but he could not have seen JFK's head due to the the front windshield and the crossbar of the Presidential Limo which would have completely blocked his view of JFK. http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol18_0054a.htm The street elevation decrease between the Altgens Photo/CE900/aka Z255 and the impact point of the Z313 headshot was 2.7 feet. Due to the distance to Mr. Altgens, the decrease in this vertical angle would have placed JFK's head directly behind the windshield and crossbar frame of the Presidential Limo, at Z313, completely blocked from the view of Altgens. Mr. ALTGENS - Yes. What made me almost certain that the shot came from behind was because at the time I was looking at the President, just as he was struck, it caused him to move a bit forward. He seemed as if at the time----well, he was in a position-- sort of immobile. He wasn't upright. He was at an angle but when it hit him, it seemed to have just lodged--it seemed as if he were hung up on a seat button or something like that. It knocked him just enough forward that he came right on down. There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted May 16, 2007 Share Posted May 16, 2007 For Tom, from patspeer.com. "On 1-20-64, we receive a shock. On the first page of a 65-page packet of visual aids and memos from the FBI’s Exhibits Section (CD 298) is a letter from J. Edgar Hoover himself, telling us that 28 copies of this packet have been sent out to Warren Commission counsel and staff per General Counsel Rankin’s request. When we look inside, however, we find that the Exhibits Section of the FBI has been conducting a separate investigation from the Investigative Division run by Rosen and has come to some surprising conclusions. We just can’t believe it. There is photo after photo of the FBI’s model of Dealey Plaza, and photo after photo depicting the limousine in front of the concrete steps at the time of the third shot. At the end of the packet, moreover, is a summary of the Exhibit Section’s findings. Under the heading “What was the aiming pattern of the assassin’s target?” it reads: a. SHOT ONE hit the target from a distance of 167 feet, measured downward along a 23-degree angle from the horizontal. (P.S. THIS CORRESPONDS ROUGHLY TO THE LIMO’S POSITION AT FRAME 197 OF THE ZAPRUDER FILM, WHEN THE LIMOUSINE WAS BEHIND A TREE FOR A SHOT FIRED FROM THE SNIPER’S NEST.) b. SHOT TWO hit the target from a distance of 262 feet, measured downward along an 18-degree angle from the horizontal. The target moved forward 96 feet in 4.4 seconds at 15 mph (22fps) or 5.5 seconds at 12 mph (17.6 fps). Line of sight change from shot one: 5 degrees upward, 4 degrees to the right. (P.S. THIS IS AN OBVIOUS REFERENCE TO FRAME 313 OF THE ZAPRUDER FILM, THE MOMENT OF THE FATAL HEADSHOT, DETERMINED ON 11-27-63 TO HAVE BEEN FIRED FROM 260 FEET AND EVENTUALLY DETERMINED TO HAVE BEEN FIRED FROM 265 FEET.) c. SHOT THREE hit the target from a distance of 307 feet, measured downward along a 15 degree angle from the horizontal. The target moved forward 45 feet in 2.0 seconds at 15 mph (22 fps) or 2.5 seconds at 12 mph (17.6 fps). Line of sight change from shot two: 3 degrees upward, 1.5 degrees to the right. (P.S. THIS CORRESPONDS ROUGHLY TO KENNEDY’S POSITION AT FRAME 358 OF THE ZAPRUDER FILM, APPROXIMATELY 2 1/2 SECONDS AFTER THE FATAL HEADSHOT.) d. ELAPSED TIME to hit targets two and three after hitting target one: 6.4 seconds at 15 mph (22 fps) or 8.0 seconds at 12 mph (17.6 fps). e. CHANGE OF AIMING PATTERN from shot one to shot three: 8 degrees upward, 5.5 degrees to the right. From this, we can see that the photos were not a mistake. The report clearly suggests there was a shot after the head shot. But it also says “Shot Three hit the target.” So which shot came after the head shot? Did they conclude Connally was hit after the head shot? Well…no. In another section of the summary, a brief description is given of the Zapruder film, in which it is made clear that Connally was hit before the fatal headshot. It states: “The car momentarily became obscured from Zapruder’s line of sight behind a road sign (refer to scale model). As it emerged from behind the sign, the Zapruder film reproduced the action of the occupants of the car as follows: The President is slumped forward in his seat with his right hand partly lowered from the previous waving position, he appears to be leaning toward his left nearer to Mrs. Kennedy; Governor Connally is seen turning his head to the right and rear, falling towards Mrs. Connally, as a circle of light resembling an explosive blast encircles the President’s head.” As the report also describes the assassination film of Orville Nix, filmed from opposite Zapruder, and as the Nix film clearly shows the head shot occurring when the limousine is in front of the pedestal, forty five feet closer to the school book depository than the steps, the Exhibits Section should have known that their second shot was the head shot. As to how this escaped them, one can only guess. In his 6-4-64 testimony before the Commission, Exhibits Section Chief Leo Gauthier revealed that the data used by his section in making the exhibits was obtained in Dallas on December 2, 3 and 4, and that it took his people five weeks to create their model. This suggests they used the 12-5 Secret Service Survey performed for Elmer Moore as the basis for their exhibits. If so, however, why did they place the first shot 17 feet closer, the second shot 20 feet further, and the third shot 13 feet further from the sniper’s nest than Moore? Ultimately, all we can take from the 12-5-64 Secret Service Plat and Gauthier’s exhibits is that the Secret Service and FBI were blindly clutching at straws trying to give Oswald enough time to have fired all three shots. Either that or their eyes were wide open and they were trying to deceive the commission." (P.S. your assertion that both the second and third shots were interpreted as "head shots" is rather silly. No one describes two head shots, least of all Altgens, who described one early shot and one head shot." Mr. ALTGENS - I made one picture at the time I heard a noise that sounded like a firecracker--I did not know it was a shot, but evidently my picture, as I recall, and it was almost simultaneously with the shot--the shot was just a fraction ahead of my picture, http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol18_0054a.htm Mr. ALTGENS - Because I didn't see who fired it. After the Presidential car moved a little past me, I took another picture--now, just let me back up here--I was prepared to make a picture at the very instant the President was shot. I had refocused to 15 feet because I wanted a good closeup of the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and that's why I know that it would be right at 15 feet, because I had prefocused in that area, and I had my camera almost to my eye when it happened and that's as far as I got with my camera. http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z342.jpg Mr. ALTGENS - Yes. What made me almost certain that the shot came from behind was because at the time I was looking at the President, just as he was struck, it caused him to move a bit forward. He seemed as if at the time----well, he was in a position-- sort of immobile. He wasn't upright. He was at an angle but when it hit him, it seemed to have just lodged--it seemed as if he were hung up on a seat button or something like that. It knocked him just enough forward that he came right on down. There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing, Mr. ALTGENS - I would say that--I know there was one in between. It is possible there might have been another one I don't really know, but two, I can really account for. Mr. LIEBELER - And that's the first one and the last one? Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir. Mr. ALTGENS - Well, I was about 15 feet from it. Mr. LIEBELER - But it was almost directly in front of you as it went down the street; isn't that right? Mr. ALTGENS - Yes. http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z343.jpg and I had my camera almost to my eye when it happened and that's as far as I got with my camera. Mr. LIEBELER - So, it is clear from your testimony that the third shot--the last shot, rather--hit the President? Mr. ALTGENS - Well, off and on we have been referring to the third shot and the fourth shot; but actually, it was the last shot, the shot did strike the President and there was no other sound like a shot that was made after that ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (P.S. your assertion that both the second and third shots were interpreted as "head shots" is rather silly. No one describes two head shots, least of all Altgens, who described one early shot and one head shot." Your attempt to understand the survey information is "rather silly"! Which also helps explain other aspects of why you have been lost for so long on the subject matter. Prior to the WC, the height of target (height of JFK's head above Elm St.) was never taken into consideration in the mathmatical computations. All computations and angles were to the "POINT" on Elm St. at which the position of JFK was directly above at the time of impact. During the WC work, all angles and distances were measured and computed to that point on Elm St. at which the elevation of JFK's head would have been. Thus, even were a point the exact same for the US Secret Service survey work and the WC Survey work, the downward angles as well as the distances would be slightly different. In addition, survey work prior to the WC utilized the top of the window ledge of the sixth floor window for their calculations, and merely did mathmatical calculations for angle determination. During the WC work, these angles were physically "shot" in with an instrument, and the angles were not to the window ledge. Rather, they were to the "jacked" up rifle in the sixth floor window. Therefore, unless you have a survey background, you are again up to your neck into something of which you know nothing. Lastly! a. SHOT ONE hit the target from a distance of 167 feet, measured downward along a 23-degree angle from the horizontal. (P.S. THIS CORRESPONDS ROUGHLY TO THE LIMO’S POSITION AT FRAME 197 OF THE ZAPRUDER FILM, WHEN THE LIMOUSINE WAS BEHIND A TREE FOR A SHOT FIRED FROM THE SNIPER’S NEST.) Nope! The slope distance for the first shot, as determined by Time/Life and their survey work, was 170 feet and approximately 23 degrees downward, as measured from the sixth floor of the TSDB. P.S. This was for approximately Z205/206 of the Z-film. And again, these are those distances as computed for an impact on the street at the position where JFK was located. As the elevation of JFK's head was higher, this decreased both the actual downward angle of fire as well as the actual slope distance, which neither the FBI nor the SS were reporting. and: http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0464b.htm had you bothered to study this relatively accurate data (excluding 161/166/210), one can see how, during the WC work, Mr. West corrected this in that distances are from the rifle to "K"/Kennedy, not the street. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ b. SHOT TWO hit the target from a distance of 262 feet, measured downward along an 18-degree angle from the horizontal. The target moved forward 96 feet in 4.4 seconds at 15 mph (22fps) or 5.5 seconds at 12 mph (17.6 fps). Line of sight change from shot one: 5 degrees upward, 4 degrees to the right. (P.S. THIS IS AN OBVIOUS REFERENCE TO FRAME 313 OF THE ZAPRUDER FILM, THE MOMENT OF THE FATAL HEADSHOT, DETERMINED ON 11-27-63 TO HAVE BEEN FIRED FROM 260 FEET AND EVENTUALLY DETERMINED TO HAVE BEEN FIRED FROM 265 FEET.) Even though you obviously do not fully grasp how the various measurements and angles changed throughout the survey work, at least you got this one relatively correct. I would also give note that one should pay particular close attention to the fact that the FBI report is, at this point, stating that the Presidential limo traversed approximately 96 feet between the impact point of the first shot and the impact point of the second shot. Z313 impact point:-----Survey stationing 465.3 minus 96 = Stationing 369.3. Z207:------Survey Stationing 371.1 371.1 minus 369.3 = 1.8 feet. Thus, even the FBI agreed that the first shot impact point was at approximately 1.8 feet prior to Z207. Shall I reiterate?: The slope distance for the first shot, as determined by Time/Life and their survey work, was 170 feet and approximately 23 degrees downward, as measured from the sixth floor of the TSDB. P.S. This was for approximately Z205/206 of the Z-film. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- c. SHOT THREE hit the target from a distance of 307 feet, measured downward along a 15 degree angle from the horizontal. The target moved forward 45 feet in 2.0 seconds at 15 mph (22 fps) or 2.5 seconds at 12 mph (17.6 fps). Line of sight change from shot two: 3 degrees upward, 1.5 degrees to the right. (P.S. THIS CORRESPONDS ROUGHLY TO KENNEDY’S POSITION AT FRAME 358 OF THE ZAPRUDER FILM, APPROXIMATELY 2 1/2 SECONDS AFTER THE FATAL HEADSHOT.) Nope! As I have previously informed, the "slope" distance for the third shot, as determined by the US Secret Service, was 294 feet. Which placed the impact point of this shot allmost directly, 15 feet to the front of James Altgens. Again, this was a distance, as measured to an impact point on Elm St., just as was the computed downward angle of fire. The "operative" word, as relates to the downward angle of fire is "from the horizontal" In order to compute the exact "firing" downward angle of fire, one must take into consideration the downward slope of Elm St., below the horizontal plane, and thus increases the downward angle, and then subtract the vertical angle computation for the height of JFK's head above that given point on Elm St. Lastly/Lastly! There is of course other aspects of the survey work which I have not bothered to infrom, which also account for some of these different measurements which have and continue to confuse most who delve into it. It is therefore quite "silly" for anyone to think that they can figure this out without having posession of the survey notes, the survey plats, and a few good ole face to face discussions with the honorable Mr. Robert West. I will however state that a little work on one's reading comprehension may be of assistance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted May 16, 2007 Share Posted May 16, 2007 I believe in a free flow of information, for better or worse, and have tried, however imperfectly, to practice what I preach. The question is, does Mack believe in open, informed debate? Paul, It doesn't matter how many copies Zapruder had made of his film ... how many copies any Federal branch made ... or how many bootlegs Garrison and others made - they all show the same event. And while I too, believe in a free flow of information ... it seems that some folks do not see it as free flowing information when it doesn't support their position. Then what seemingly soon follows with them is a free flow of disinformation. Bill Miller The remedy, if such be needed, is in the hands of you, Mack et al - contribute what you've got, and argue from there, with the evidence before those who wish to read it and participate. Not very difficult, surely? Unless, of course, what your side refuses to disclose doesn't reinforce the party line. Paul The record is what it is. Zapruder was very careful and smart to have copies made of his film on the day of the assassination in the event the original was destroyed or damaged. Despite what anyone says - experts have claimed and stated why the existing camera original film is in fact the real deal. It's also true that there have been existing copies made of the film that contain various degrees of clarity, but no one has ever produced a print that showed something happening on the film that all the existing prints do not show. Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Rigby Posted May 16, 2007 Author Share Posted May 16, 2007 The record is what it is. Zapruder was very careful and smart to have copies made of his film on the day of the assassination in the event the original was destroyed or damaged. Despite what anyone says - experts have claimed and stated why the existing camera original film is in fact the real deal. It's also true that there have been existing copies made of the film that contain various degrees of clarity, but no one has ever produced a print that showed something happening on the film that all the existing prints do not show. Bill Miller Bill, you're retreating into the anti-alterationists' bunker: I don't blame you. Just remember to refuse all proferred tablets and medicines. Rick Freedman, “Pictures of Assassination Fall to Amateurs on Street,” Editor & Publisher, November 30, 1963, p.67:“By Tuesday, numerous pictures, both still and movie, were being offered to news media. At least one television station was besieged with protests after it had shown scenes of the President’s motorcade at the moment of the shooting. Many viewers considered them to be too gruesome.” Richard Trask on the Muchmore film, in Pictures of the Pain (Danvers, MA: Yeoman Press, 1994), p.205: “Following its development at the Eastman Kodak lab in Dallas, the film was sent to New York City. Those who examined it found the film to have some fair pre-assassination scenes of the motorcade, and a short, jerky snippet of the assassination. This portion of the film transpired so quickly as to be difficult to follow or to comprehend.” Of course, if we switch the films round - the longer, more graphic Zapruder for the rapid, more distant Muchmore shooting sequence - then we have sense. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted May 16, 2007 Share Posted May 16, 2007 “By Tuesday, numerous pictures, both still and movie, were being offered to news media. At least one television station was besieged with protests after it had shown scenes of the President’s motorcade at the moment of the shooting. Many viewers considered them to be too gruesome.”[/b] Richard Trask on the Muchmore film, in Pictures of the Pain (Danvers, MA: Yeoman Press, 1994), p.205: “Following its development at the Eastman Kodak lab in Dallas, the film was sent to New York City. Those who examined it found the film to have some fair pre-assassination scenes of the motorcade, and a short, jerky snippet of the assassination. This portion of the film transpired so quickly as to be difficult to follow or to comprehend.” Of course, if we switch the films round - the longer, more graphic Zapruder for the rapid, more distant Muchmore shooting sequence - then we have sense. Paul .... And what is your point, Paul? Muchmore, not being a professional photographer was there not to capture and document the assassination, but to get a glimpse of the nations 1st couple and to capture some images of it. Do you find her actions conspiratorial? If so, then please explain the logic in which you base that opinion. Thanks! Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted May 16, 2007 Share Posted May 16, 2007 (edited) The record is what it is. Zapruder was very careful and smart to have copies made of his film on the day of the assassination in the event the original was destroyed or damaged. Despite what anyone says - experts have claimed and stated why the existing camera original film is in fact the real deal. It's also true that there have been existing copies made of the film that contain various degrees of clarity, but no one has ever produced a print that showed something happening on the film that all the existing prints do not show. Bill Miller Bill, you're retreating into the anti-alterationists' bunker: I don't blame you. Just remember to refuse all proferred tablets and medicines. Paul, is the gibberish in your two sentence reply above the extent of your position or is there more? I must ask this because upon reading such a reply ... it seems to give the impression that because you don't really have anything of substance to offer, then you must resort to meaningless empty remarks that side stepped any factual data that could be presented. Bill Miller Edited May 16, 2007 by Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Speer Posted May 17, 2007 Share Posted May 17, 2007 Lastly/Lastly!There is of course other aspects of the survey work which I have not bothered to infrom, which also account for some of these different measurements which have and continue to confuse most who delve into it. It is therefore quite "silly" for anyone to think that they can figure this out without having posession of the survey notes, the survey plats, and a few good ole face to face discussions with the honorable Mr. Robert West. I will however state that a little work on one's reading comprehension may be of assistance. Come now, Tom. It doesn't take a professional surveyor to see that the SS and FBI kept stretching the head shot further and further from the first shot. Whether one's measuring from the gun or from the windowsill, to the head or to the street, is beside the point when the measurements are off by 40 feet or more. Tom, you spoke to West. Did he say the last shot on his SS plat was determined by their watching the Z film? If so, who determined the exact location? How? Wasn't he suspicious when he saw that it was 34 feet past Howlett's head shot? Why not? And what about Gauthier's 307 feet? Where did he get that? From patspeer.com "On 5-24-64, the Warren Commission and FBI conduct their on-site tests in Dealey Plaza. A few days later Arlen Specter takes the testimony of the FBI’s photographic expert Lyndal Shaneyfelt (6-4-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 5H139-164). Shaneyfelt testifies about the distance of the limousine from the sniper’s nest at relevant moments of the Zapruder film. While discussing frame 313, the moment of the fatal headshot, he states that the “Distance to the rifle in the window is 265.3 feet. The angle to rifle in the window is 15’21’ and this is based on the horizontal.” The establishment of this distance at 265 feet should send shivers down the spine of the commission. If Specter had looked back through the records he would have seen that on 11-27-63 Agent Howlett, using the Zapruder film, determined the distance to be 260 feet. Close enough. He would also have seen that, on 12-5-63, just after the formation of the Warren Commission, Agent Moore, using the Zapruder film and the same surveyor used for the re-enactment, determined the distance to have been 294 feet. Something’s beginning to smell. He then would have remembered that on 1-20-64 the FBI had provided him with exhibits indicating this distance was 307 feet. An even closer look would have indicated that, while the re-enactment determined the limo traveled no more than 88 feet between Kennedy’s receiving his two wounds, and may have traveled as little as 74 feet, the Secret Service on 12-5 indicated it traveled 110 feet, and the FBI Exhibits Section, after surveying the plaza and studying the films for 5 weeks, 140 feet. That means that, in the eyes of the FBI, the span of time in the Zapruder film in which Kennedy had obviously been hit prior to the headshot was almost twice as long as originally interpreted by Agent Howlett, and as later confirmed by the commission. As a result one can only conclude that the Secret Service and FBI were either deliberately misleading the commission or incompetent. Either way their tests were unreliable. As Specter had called doctors such as Malcolm Perry before the commission and forced them to explain why they had initially described Kennedy’s throat wound as an entrance wound, he should have called Agent Moore of the Secret Service and Chief Gauthier of the FBI’s Exhibits Section before the commission to explain how they could be so wrong about the distance of the sniper’s nest from the headshot. That he left their phenomenal errors unexplained suggests the commission was scared of undermining the credibility of its prime investigators, the Secret Service and the FBI, and hoped no one would notice the contradictory conclusions contained within the Secret Service and FBI reports. They nearly got their wish." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted May 17, 2007 Share Posted May 17, 2007 Lastly/Lastly!There is of course other aspects of the survey work which I have not bothered to infrom, which also account for some of these different measurements which have and continue to confuse most who delve into it. It is therefore quite "silly" for anyone to think that they can figure this out without having posession of the survey notes, the survey plats, and a few good ole face to face discussions with the honorable Mr. Robert West. I will however state that a little work on one's reading comprehension may be of assistance. Come now, Tom. It doesn't take a professional surveyor to see that the SS and FBI kept stretching the head shot further and further from the first shot. Whether one's measuring from the gun or from the windowsill, to the head or to the street, is beside the point when the measurements are off by 40 feet or more. Tom, you spoke to West. Did he say the last shot on his SS plat was determined by their watching the Z film? If so, who determined the exact location? How? Wasn't he suspicious when he saw that it was 34 feet past Howlett's head shot? Why not? And what about Gauthier's 307 feet? Where did he get that? From patspeer.com "On 5-24-64, the Warren Commission and FBI conduct their on-site tests in Dealey Plaza. A few days later Arlen Specter takes the testimony of the FBI’s photographic expert Lyndal Shaneyfelt (6-4-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 5H139-164). Shaneyfelt testifies about the distance of the limousine from the sniper’s nest at relevant moments of the Zapruder film. While discussing frame 313, the moment of the fatal headshot, he states that the “Distance to the rifle in the window is 265.3 feet. The angle to rifle in the window is 15’21’ and this is based on the horizontal.” The establishment of this distance at 265 feet should send shivers down the spine of the commission. If Specter had looked back through the records he would have seen that on 11-27-63 Agent Howlett, using the Zapruder film, determined the distance to be 260 feet. Close enough. He would also have seen that, on 12-5-63, just after the formation of the Warren Commission, Agent Moore, using the Zapruder film and the same surveyor used for the re-enactment, determined the distance to have been 294 feet. Something’s beginning to smell. He then would have remembered that on 1-20-64 the FBI had provided him with exhibits indicating this distance was 307 feet. An even closer look would have indicated that, while the re-enactment determined the limo traveled no more than 88 feet between Kennedy’s receiving his two wounds, and may have traveled as little as 74 feet, the Secret Service on 12-5 indicated it traveled 110 feet, and the FBI Exhibits Section, after surveying the plaza and studying the films for 5 weeks, 140 feet. That means that, in the eyes of the FBI, the span of time in the Zapruder film in which Kennedy had obviously been hit prior to the headshot was almost twice as long as originally interpreted by Agent Howlett, and as later confirmed by the commission. As a result one can only conclude that the Secret Service and FBI were either deliberately misleading the commission or incompetent. Either way their tests were unreliable. As Specter had called doctors such as Malcolm Perry before the commission and forced them to explain why they had initially described Kennedy’s throat wound as an entrance wound, he should have called Agent Moore of the Secret Service and Chief Gauthier of the FBI’s Exhibits Section before the commission to explain how they could be so wrong about the distance of the sniper’s nest from the headshot. That he left their phenomenal errors unexplained suggests the commission was scared of undermining the credibility of its prime investigators, the Secret Service and the FBI, and hoped no one would notice the contradictory conclusions contained within the Secret Service and FBI reports. They nearly got their wish." Come now, Tom. It doesn't take a professional surveyor to see that the SS and FBI kept stretching the head shot further and further from the first shot. Whether one's measuring from the gun or from the windowsill, to the head or to the street, is beside the point when the measurements are off by 40 feet or more. If it makes you feel better to blame your lack of understanding of the "genesis" of the survey work on the Secret Service and the FBI, then it is most unlikely that anything which I have to say will change that. However! For those who have some interest in the facts: First off was of course the Time/Life Survey work, which is only marginally better than what the average person could do with a tape measure and looking at the Z-film. Then came the true, one, and only extensive survey work of Dealy Plaza in which elevation control was carried into the assassination area from a known SCP/benchmark, and footing/stationing numbers were assigned along Elm St. along with corresponding elevation contour lines. Not to mention extensive survey work of the surrounding area. This was of course the work done for the U.S. Secret Service on December 2, 3, & 4th, 1963, with the resulting survey plat being dated 12/5/63. In establishment of the positions of shot impact points, the U.S. Secret Service had copies of photographs of the Z-film, and according to Mr. West, neither he nor his survey personnel were allowed access to this information. The Secret Service merely guided the survey crew to points and basically designated the impact point for each of the three shots fired. The US Secret Service has never made any change to this data as generated and produced for and by the US Secret Service,. During this work, Mr. West placed a nail in Elm St. at what was designated as impact point for the first shot, and thereafter worked from this established point as well as having utilized this point to "carry" forward other temporary SCP (survey control points). The nail/pin for the impact point of the first shot was set at stationing 3+81.3. This position HAS NOT changed for either the Secret Service or the later FBI attempt to hide the facts. Stationing 3+81.3 falls at a point approximately between Z210 and Z212, and is the platted impact point for the first shot on ALL of those survey plats which Mr. West produced for the Secret Service (1 survey plat) as well as for the survey plat's generated for the FBI, as well as just general survey notes in which the FBI was attempting to alter the facts. http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0464b.htm If one will look at this, they will find that Z210, according to this, was at stationing 3+73.4. However, if one has taken the time to read and/or study my previous work on the altered survey data, they will find that in reality, this is the survey station number for frame#Z208, and that the exhibit has been altered to read frame#210. Therefore, according to both the Secret Service and the FBI, impact point for the first shot was approximately 7.9 feet farther down Elm St. than frame# Z208. And again, this position has never changed, including up and through the Survey Plat dated 6/25/64 which was the final survey plat that Mr. West produced for the FBI. What has changed is the elevation of the aiming point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Rigby Posted August 15, 2007 Author Share Posted August 15, 2007 4) AP, "Movie Film Depicts Shooting of Kennedy,” Milwaukee Journal, November 26, 1963, part 1, p.3Dallas, Tex.-AP - A strip of color movie film graphically depicting the assassination of President Kennedy was made by a Dallas clothing manufacturer with an 8 millimeter camera. Several persons in Dallas who have seen the film, which lasts about 15 seconds, say it clearly shows how the president was hit in the head with shattering force by the second of two bullets fired by the assassin. Life magazine reportedly purchased still picture rights to the material for about $40,000. ("The film also was being distributed by United Press International Newsfilms to subscribing stations. WITI-TV in Milwaukee is a subscriber, but will reserve judgment on whether to show the film until after its officials have viewed it.") This is what the film by Abe Zapruder is reported to show: First the presidential limousine is coming toward the camera. As it comes abreast of the photographer, Mr. Kennedy is hit by the first bullet, apparently in the neck. He turns toward his wife Jacqueline, seated at his left, and she quickly begins to put her hands around his head. At the same time, Texas Gov. John Connally, riding directly in front of the president, turns around to see what has happened. Then Mr. Kennedy is hit on the upper right side of the back of his head with violent force. His head goes forward and then snaps back, and he slumps down on the seat. At this time, Gov. Connolly is wounded and drops forward on his seat. Mrs. Kennedy then jumps up and crawls across the back deck of the limousine, apparently seeking the aid of a secret service man who has been trotting behind the slowly moving vehicle. He jumps onto the car and shoves Mrs. Kennedy back into the seat. Then he orders the driver to speed to the hospital where the president died. The elapsed time from the moment when Mr. Kennedy is first struck until the car disappears in an underpass is about five seconds." UPI (London), “World Press Raises Doubts About Assassination Case,” St. Louis Post-Dispatch, 26 November 1963, p.4A: …The Milan newspaper Corriere Lombardo…referred to a movie of the actual shooting and said it showed that “not more than five seconds elapsed from the moment Kennedy was shot and the moment his car sped away.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack White Posted August 16, 2007 Share Posted August 16, 2007 West and Breneman were furnished 8x10 prints of Z frames to use in their surveying. They noted numerous discrepancies in surveyed positions and the frames. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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