Dealey Plaza Detailed Map by Donald Roberdeau

[David G. Healy]

OK, Miles I got it by email. The problem with hosting it is its size.

1.45mb compuserve gif.

If anyone can host it for people to download please email/pm for a copy.

Hi John.

Email me a copy and i will upload it to my site.

Hi Robin,

I have been unable to save the map from your site, I have used both IE7 And Firefox browsers. Is it still available?

I'm using the site identified in your sig.

Cheers

Gary

I have Firefox and ran into the same problem: go to the image (don't know if your on a Mac or PC) right click in the browser, click on: get page info (a new window will open) click on the media tab (a new window will NOT open), at the bottom of that screen appears Save as .... do your thing

Edited June 10, 2007 by David G. Healy

[John Dolva]

John : "alternative: 1978 HSCA DP northern half by Drommer Surveyors, Dallas. 1mb jpg

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c168/yan...P_ss_HSCA-1.jpg "

alternative: 1978 HSCA DP northern half by Drommer Surveyors, Dallas.

Which happens to be the second best "Professionally Surveyed" map of Dealy Plaza.

However! It too has it's good points as well as it's bad points.

Bad Point#1:

The survey appears to have been conducted after the re-surfacing/re-asphalting of Elm St. Thus, most street elevations appear to be approximately (+/-) 1-inch higher than what was established during the SS & WC survey work.

Bad Point#2:

The survey group DID NOT carry established elevation into the surveyed area. They merely established a point and gave it the random elevation of 100.

Whereas, Mr. West, during the SS Survey work, had carried established elevation control into the surveyed area from an established Survey Control Station/Benchmark which was a brass marker located at the NW Corner of the County Court House.

Thus, one has difficulty in correlation of WC/SS Survey data and that data as established during the HSCA Survey.

Yup, this confirms my analysis. West's survey was the one done properly, and the HSCA while spatially correct has the problem about benchmark start.

Now this one, Drommer, and hence Wests, resolves certain film synch issues which Don's and the Italian one and Marsh do not.

Basically,I think there is one set readily available that is faulty. and one set which is not available except on fragments or as in the case of Drommer barely readable with certainty the figures, and then they all have to converted to sealevel which may be impossible for reasons stated.

On page one, it was first a series of problems of reconciling film photo issues that led me to suspect Don's plat, and then, this one (Drommer) that led me to state Don's map is signoficantly incorrect, and the correct one that resolves all issues is not available.

Edited June 10, 2007 by John Dolva

[Miles Scull]

John : "alternative: 1978 HSCA DP northern half by Drommer Surveyors, Dallas. 1mb jpg

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c168/yan...P_ss_HSCA-1.jpg "

alternative: 1978 HSCA DP northern half by Drommer Surveyors, Dallas.

Which happens to be the second best "Professionally Surveyed" map of Dealy Plaza.

However! It too has it's good points as well as it's bad points.

Bad Point#1:

The survey appears to have been conducted after the re-surfacing/re-asphalting of Elm St. Thus, most street elevations appear to be approximately (+/-) 1-inch higher than what was established during the SS & WC survey work.

Bad Point#2:

The survey group DID NOT carry established elevation into the surveyed area. They merely established a point and gave it the random elevation of 100.

Whereas, Mr. West, during the SS Survey work, had carried established elevation control into the surveyed area from an established Survey Control Station/Benchmark which was a brass marker located at the NW Corner of the County Court House.

Thus, one has difficulty in correlation of WC/SS Survey data and that data as established during the HSCA Survey.

Yup, this confirms my analysis. West's survey was the one done properly, and the HSCA while spatially correct has the problem about benchmark start.

Now this one, Drommer, and hence Wests, resolves certain film synch issues which Don's and the Italian one and Marsh do not.

Basically,I think there is one set readily available that is faulty. and one set which is not available except on fragments or as in the case of Drommer barely readable with certainty the figures, and then they all have to converted to sealevel which may be impossible for reasons stated.

On page one, it was first a series of problems of reconciling film photo issues that led me to suspect Don's plat, and then, this one (Drommer) that led me to state Don's map is signoficantly incorrect, and the correct one that resolves all issues is not available.

John, Thx for info. In regard to this map:

What is your analysis on accuracy? For example, can you point out some disparities between this map & Don's? Where are there some inaccuracies that might change current factual data re: the assassination? I believe Chris pointed out some points of interest.

[John Dolva]

John : "alternative: 1978 HSCA DP northern half by Drommer Surveyors, Dallas. 1mb jpg

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c168/yan...P_ss_HSCA-1.jpg "

alternative: 1978 HSCA DP northern half by Drommer Surveyors, Dallas.

Which happens to be the second best "Professionally Surveyed" map of Dealy Plaza.

However! It too has it's good points as well as it's bad points.

Bad Point#1:

The survey appears to have been conducted after the re-surfacing/re-asphalting of Elm St. Thus, most street elevations appear to be approximately (+/-) 1-inch higher than what was established during the SS & WC survey work.

Bad Point#2:

The survey group DID NOT carry established elevation into the surveyed area. They merely established a point and gave it the random elevation of 100.

Whereas, Mr. West, during the SS Survey work, had carried established elevation control into the surveyed area from an established Survey Control Station/Benchmark which was a brass marker located at the NW Corner of the County Court House.

Thus, one has difficulty in correlation of WC/SS Survey data and that data as established during the HSCA Survey.

Yup, this confirms my analysis. West's survey was the one done properly, and the HSCA while spatially correct has the problem about benchmark start.

Now this one, Drommer, and hence Wests, resolves certain film synch issues which Don's and the Italian one and Marsh do not.

Basically,I think there is one set readily available that is faulty. and one set which is not available except on fragments or as in the case of Drommer barely readable with certainty the figures, and then they all have to converted to sealevel which may be impossible for reasons stated.

On page one, it was first a series of problems of reconciling film photo issues that led me to suspect Don's plat, and then, this one (Drommer) that led me to state Don's map is signoficantly incorrect, and the correct one that resolves all issues is not available.

John, Thx for info. In regard to this map:

What is your analysis on accuracy? For example, can you point out some disparities between this map & Don's? Where are there some inaccuracies that might change current factual data re: the assassination? I believe Chris pointed out some points of interest.

Miles, it'll take a couple of days to answer fully as I have some things to do.

The process is to have a photoshop type program with layers and transparency and fine rotation. Placing one on top of the other and adjusting scale and alignment one can then see whether they line up.

On page one the image shows the drommer with the necessary shifts of portions of Don's plat in order for them to match.

Analogous to reality would be to use a light table and two equally scaled plats and then cutting Don's into three sections one finds that each of the three match but in the process the edges overlap in various ways.

So, in the meantime anyone with the resources and understanding can take the drommer posted and Dons map and the one you refer to and do this analysis.

It's one thing me saying this is so.

Once two or more others indepedently confirm it (or show otherwise) it is a matter for discussion. With a reliable independently reproducible result one can then proceed with a degree of certainty in many matters.

With Tom contributing, and hopefully Bob or other certified surveyors contributing, and with the partcipation of other principals this should be doable.

Edited June 11, 2007 by John Dolva

[Chris Davidson]

This is Drommer's and Miles' composited.

Drommer's being the white lines with a light blue background, and Miles is the blue lines.

I changed the aspect ratio to get them this close.

chris

[John Dolva]

This is Drommer's and Miles' composited.

Drommer's being the white lines with a light blue background, and Miles is the blue lines.

I changed the aspect ratio to get them this close.

chris

That's the way to go, Chris. One can see significant discrepancies. Similar was the result of comparing Don's and Drommer's, though the method was different. What do you get when comparing Miles'* and Don's?

My finding when comparing the fragements of West's that I have over time collected is that Drommer and West match.

There is also Marsh's plat.

hypothesis: Don's, Marsh's and 'Miles' '(*shouldn't rally say Miles' as it's not his product, he merely kindly provided it for analysis, it's from a Craig Ciccone) are of the same 'genealogy', whereas Drommer's and West's are the correct spatially, but West's is the real deal in all the essential aspects.

(A kindly suggestion to Tom: Get a reliable company to digitise the full West's and the documentation and recoup costs plus a reasonable profit by selling it on CD through for example Lancer?)

Edited June 11, 2007 by John Dolva

[Chris Davidson]

John,

Miles' and Don's composited.

Didn't change aspect ratio.

Closer than Miles' and Drommer's I believe.

chris

[John Dolva]

Great, Chris.

So again, considering scale, there are discrepancies that when taken to real-life DP dimensions, means partially major differences, though as you say not quite as much.

The need for a standard, correct plat for researches with detailed topology is therefore demonstrably essential, IMO.

[John Dolva]

This is a small version of a large (45mb) comparison of West's (poor resolution) (WC? copy) and fragments (excellent resolution) gathered over time of Tom's West Plat. To my mind an exact match.

(image)

Edited June 11, 2007 by John Dolva

[Robin Unger]

OK, Miles I got it by email. The problem with hosting it is its size.

1.45mb compuserve gif.

If anyone can host it for people to download please email/pm for a copy.

Hi John.

Email me a copy and i will upload it to my site.

Hi Robin,

I have been unable to save the map from your site, I have used both IE7 And Firefox browsers. Is it still available?

I'm using the site identified in your sig.

Cheers

Gary

Gary/David

Yes you are correct, i has a faulty link on my webpage, i have now fixed the problem.

I just tried it and it works now.

[Miles Scull]

This is a small version of a large (45mb) comparison of West's (poor resolution) (WC? copy) and fragments (excellent resolution) gathered over time of Tom's West Plat. To my mind an exact match.

(image)

Thx Chris & John for comparisons.

Placement of the Hudson tree off the corner of the picket fence (TRUNK BENT SOUTH) is of some importance when considering a sniper's position.

For example, a trajectory (in blue) doesn't seem disallowed by inaccuracies in Don's map.

It would be useful to rectify this particular area. Chris, John, is Don's Z-313 spot accurate, in your analysis?

[Thomas H. Purvis]

This is Drommer's and Miles' composited.

Drommer's being the white lines with a light blue background, and Miles is the blue lines.

I changed the aspect ratio to get them this close.

chris

That's the way to go, Chris. One can see significant discrepancies. Similar was the result of comparing Don's and Drommer's, though the method was different. What do you get when comparing Miles'* and Don's?

My finding when comparing the fragements of West's that I have over time collected is that Drommer and West match.

There is also Marsh's plat.

hypothesis: Don's, Marsh's and 'Miles' '(*shouldn't rally say Miles' as it's not his product, he merely kindly provided it for analysis, it's from a Craig Ciccone) are of the same 'genealogy', whereas Drommer's and West's are the correct spatially, but West's is the real deal in all the essential aspects.

(A kindly suggestion to Tom: Get a reliable company to digitise the full West's and the documentation and recoup costs plus a reasonable profit by selling it on CD through for example Lancer?)

(A kindly suggestion to Tom: Get a reliable company to digitise the full West's and the documentation and recoup costs plus a reasonable profit by selling it on CD through for example Lancer?)

John;

Due to so many others who are in this merely to make a "buck", rest assured that I have considered the possibility of making 1,000 copies of each of those survey plats in my possession:

a. Time/Life

b. SS

c. FBI

d. WC

e. Later FBI

and thereafter offering them for sale at the price of $100.00 each, and as a "freebie", one would recieve copies of the appropriate survey notes of Mr. West.

However, I have yet in life, had to resort to being a "whore" in regards to the JFK assassination, and felt that most of the pertinent information should be shared freely and openly for the benefit of those who may chose to utilize it to continue to chase mythological beings, or delve into the actual truth and facts. Either of which is their personal chose.

This open sharing, is in my belief, what Mr. West would have wanted.

Tom

P.S. All copies of the survey's as well as the survey notes of Mr. West are scheduled to be on public display at the George County, MS Public Library throughout the month of November 2007.

Along with much of the other information; evidence; rifle; bullets; etc; associated with the factual evidence in the assassination of JFK.

Perhaps after this, I may "sell a little on the side"!

P.P.S. The HSCA survey work also tells much of which most are not aware!

[John Dolva]

This is Drommer's and Miles' composited.

Drommer's being the white lines with a light blue background, and Miles is the blue lines.

I changed the aspect ratio to get them this close.

chris

That's the way to go, Chris. One can see significant discrepancies. Similar was the result of comparing Don's and Drommer's, though the method was different. What do you get when comparing Miles'* and Don's?

My finding when comparing the fragements of West's that I have over time collected is that Drommer and West match.

There is also Marsh's plat.

hypothesis: Don's, Marsh's and 'Miles' '(*shouldn't rally say Miles' as it's not his product, he merely kindly provided it for analysis, it's from a Craig Ciccone) are of the same 'genealogy', whereas Drommer's and West's are the correct spatially, but West's is the real deal in all the essential aspects.

(A kindly suggestion to Tom: Get a reliable company to digitise the full West's and the documentation and recoup costs plus a reasonable profit by selling it on CD through for example Lancer?)

(A kindly suggestion to Tom: Get a reliable company to digitise the full West's and the documentation and recoup costs plus a reasonable profit by selling it on CD through for example Lancer?)

John;

Due to so many others who are in this merely to make a "buck", rest assured that I have considered the possibility of making 1,000 copies of each of those survey plats in my possession:

a. Time/Life

b. SS

c. FBI

d. WC

e. Later FBI

and thereafter offering them for sale at the price of $100.00 each, and as a "freebie", one would recieve copies of the appropriate survey notes of Mr. West.

However, I have yet in life, had to resort to being a "whore" in regards to the JFK assassination, and felt that most of the pertinent information should be shared freely and openly for the benefit of those who may chose to utilize it to continue to chase mythological beings, or delve into the actual truth and facts. Either of which is their personal chose.

This open sharing, is in my belief, what Mr. West would have wanted.

Tom

P.S. All copies of the survey's as well as the survey notes of Mr. West are scheduled to be on public display at the George County, MS Public Library throughout the month of November 2007.

Along with much of the other information; evidence; rifle; bullets; etc; associated with the factual evidence in the assassination of JFK.

Perhaps after this, I may "sell a little on the side"!

P.P.S. The HSCA survey work also tells much of which most are not aware!

Tom, Commendable, and much appreciated. (No offence meant. Scrub profit, but just recoup costs of a fullscale scan of West's best plat?) Then get someone to host it online.

? There are a number of times that I've personally had to shelve a thread of research for lack of a good copy with all levels and so on that the HSCA does not have. Many of the numbers (HSCA) are borderline readable. And as pointed out uses an arbitrary banchmark etc.

Miles, there's a need to triangulate and the good West fragments I have don't allow for it. However, given that Don's plat is demonstrably significantly incorrect then one can reasonably assume the mark is wrong. I'm patient and respect Tom going about the full release eventually in his choosen way. Meanwhile the HSCA plat is the way to go. Perhaps someone has a better copy of it? The (45mb) size is keeping the portions Tom has posted over time to scale and enlarging the HSCA. Unfortunately the detail (HSCA) doesn't get better.

Virtually, it's like working on a wall sized copy with all lines so thick that it introduces an error margin. Comparing that to a full size Dealey Plaza need finer detail. Tom's plat has the fine detail and numbers to give the proper answers, or to check/confirm/debunk previous answers.

It sounds to me like things are progressing in the right direction. Patience.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

This is Drommer's and Miles' composited.

Drommer's being the white lines with a light blue background, and Miles is the blue lines.

I changed the aspect ratio to get them this close.

chris

That's the way to go, Chris. One can see significant discrepancies. Similar was the result of comparing Don's and Drommer's, though the method was different. What do you get when comparing Miles'* and Don's?

My finding when comparing the fragements of West's that I have over time collected is that Drommer and West match.

There is also Marsh's plat.

hypothesis: Don's, Marsh's and 'Miles' '(*shouldn't rally say Miles' as it's not his product, he merely kindly provided it for analysis, it's from a Craig Ciccone) are of the same 'genealogy', whereas Drommer's and West's are the correct spatially, but West's is the real deal in all the essential aspects.

(A kindly suggestion to Tom: Get a reliable company to digitise the full West's and the documentation and recoup costs plus a reasonable profit by selling it on CD through for example Lancer?)

(A kindly suggestion to Tom: Get a reliable company to digitise the full West's and the documentation and recoup costs plus a reasonable profit by selling it on CD through for example Lancer?)

John;

Due to so many others who are in this merely to make a "buck", rest assured that I have considered the possibility of making 1,000 copies of each of those survey plats in my possession:

a. Time/Life

b. SS

c. FBI

d. WC

e. Later FBI

and thereafter offering them for sale at the price of $100.00 each, and as a "freebie", one would recieve copies of the appropriate survey notes of Mr. West.

However, I have yet in life, had to resort to being a "whore" in regards to the JFK assassination, and felt that most of the pertinent information should be shared freely and openly for the benefit of those who may chose to utilize it to continue to chase mythological beings, or delve into the actual truth and facts. Either of which is their personal chose.

This open sharing, is in my belief, what Mr. West would have wanted.

Tom

P.S. All copies of the survey's as well as the survey notes of Mr. West are scheduled to be on public display at the George County, MS Public Library throughout the month of November 2007.

Along with much of the other information; evidence; rifle; bullets; etc; associated with the factual evidence in the assassination of JFK.

Perhaps after this, I may "sell a little on the side"!

P.P.S. The HSCA survey work also tells much of which most are not aware!

Tom, Commendable, and much appreciated. (No offence meant. Scrub profit, but just recoup costs of a fullscale scan of West's best plat?) Then get someone to host it online.

? There are a number of times that I've personally had to shelve a thread of research for lack of a good copy with all levels and so on that the HSCA does not have. Many of the numbers (HSCA) are borderline readable. And as pointed out uses an arbitrary banchmark etc.

Miles, there's a need to triangulate and the good West fragments I have don't allow for it. However, given that Don's plat is demonstrably significantly incorrect then one can reasonably assume the mark is wrong. I'm patient and respect Tom going about the full release eventually in his choosen way. Meanwhile the HSCA plat is the way to go. Perhaps someone has a better copy of it? The (45mb) size is keeping the portions Tom has posted over time to scale and enlarging the HSCA. Unfortunately the detail (HSCA) doesn't get better.

Virtually, it's like working on a wall sized copy with all lines so thick that it introduces an error margin. Comparing that to a full size Dealey Plaza need finer detail. Tom's plat has the fine detail and numbers to give the proper answers, or to check/confirm/debunk previous answers.

It sounds to me like things are progressing in the right direction. Patience.

John;

One does not turn the "tide" of belief over a short period. No doubt it took many years to convince the populace that the earth was in fact round, as opposed to flat.

In that regards, I have openly shared information, with little or no stipulations. (which obviously could not be enforced anyway).

However, I would request that the factual information which I provide, and which is not protected under my copyright, not be utilized in furtherance of ill-conceived assassination theories. (such as multiple assassins).

Long ago, another highly un-informed person took it upon himself to publish in his book information related to the alteration of the survey data.

This factual alteration, which was entirely not understood by those responsible for allowing it's publication, was thereafter utilized to further the theory of multiple assassins, etc;

To the extent possible, I will openly explain much of the WC manipulations of the facts and evidence, and of course such manipulations (by a limited few persons) continued into the HSCA investigation as it was a "must" that the truth not be allowed to surface.

[Miles Scull]

Tom, Commendable, and much appreciated. (No offence meant. Scrub profit, but just recoup costs of a fullscale scan of West's best plat?) Then get someone to host it online.

? There are a number of times that I've personally had to shelve a thread of research for lack of a good copy with all levels and so on that the HSCA does not have. Many of the numbers (HSCA) are borderline readable. And as pointed out uses an arbitrary banchmark etc.

Miles, there's a need to triangulate and the good West fragments I have don't allow for it. However, given that Don's plat is demonstrably significantly incorrect then one can reasonably assume the mark is wrong. I'm patient and respect Tom going about the full release eventually in his choosen way. Meanwhile the HSCA plat is the way to go. Perhaps someone has a better copy of it? The (45mb) size is keeping the portions Tom has posted over time to scale and enlarging the HSCA. Unfortunately the detail (HSCA) doesn't get better.

Virtually, it's like working on a wall sized copy with all lines so thick that it introduces an error margin. Comparing that to a full size Dealey Plaza need finer detail. Tom's plat has the fine detail and numbers to give the proper answers, or to check/confirm/debunk previous answers.

It sounds to me like things are progressing in the right direction. Patience.

John;

One does not turn the "tide" of belief over a short period. No doubt it took many years to convince the populace that the earth was in fact round, as opposed to flat.

In that regards, I have openly shared information, with little or no stipulations. (which obviously could not be enforced anyway).

However, I would request that the factual information which I provide, and which is not protected under my copyright, not be utilized in furtherance of ill-conceived assassination theories. (such as multiple assassins).

Long ago, another highly un-informed person took it upon himself to publish in his book information related to the alteration of the survey data.

This factual alteration, which was entirely not understood by those responsible for allowing it's publication, was thereafter utilized to further the theory of multiple assassins, etc;

To the extent possible, I will openly explain much of the WC manipulations of the facts and evidence, and of course such manipulations (by a limited few persons) continued into the HSCA investigation as it was a "must" that the truth not be allowed to surface.

Not entirely clear here. Does Tom have a good plat ("Tom's plat has the fine detail and numbers to give the proper answers, or to check/confirm/debunk previous answers.") which he has or has not published to the Forum? If portions of Tom's plat are available can anyone post a link? Thx

How does an accurate plat hinder the activities of unbiased researchers?

Long ago, another highly un-informed person took it upon himself to publish in his book information related to the alteration of the survey data.

This factual alteration, which was entirely not understood by those responsible for allowing it's publication, was thereafter utilized to further the theory of multiple assassins, etc;

Mercy, what book is this?

Tom, I noticed in your Bio that you are a Combat Veteran of Vietnam. (Me too. B trp, 1/9th, 1st Cav. Div.) What do you say to a HALO jump with the plat?

Miles

Edited June 11, 2007 by Miles Scull